Talk:Choose Your Own Adventure

WP:OFFICE

This article has been placed under WP:OFFICE protection pending reasonable accomodation with concerned parties that have contacted the office. This article is not to be edited, except by people who are expressly authorized by myself, the WMF General Counsel, or other authorized WMF Staff. The relevant policy is WP:OFFICE. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 01:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible that someone authorized fix the "Digital Versions" heading (lowercase "v") and properly cite the source at the end of that section? Or should it just be left there? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 01:54, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

• After concerns were raised about this article and it was put under WP:OFFICE, User:Philippe (WMF) contacted me to assist with dispute resolution and improving the article content. I did a bit more clean up today and I'm reviewing the history of the article with a particular eye towards finding reliable sources. Interested parties can leave a comment here on the talk page, or if they are not an active Wikipedia editor, they can contact me through my Wikipedia email Email User FloNight. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Erm... Just out of curiosity, What exactly is the complaint? I understand if no comment is given due to legal reasons, but I'm confused, particularly because of the seemingly harmless nature of a set of children's books. Phearson (talk) 06:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm certainly confused here. How can "dispute resolution" happen if no one has any idea what the dispute is about? Looking at older versions of the article, I see a lot of unsourced material, so it's possible that there were factual errors (e.g. incorrect errors of authorship) or that we touched on an area of external dispute between people involved with the books, but I don't see anything that would be so blatantly offensive to someone so as to require the drastic step of an office action and the blanking of much of the entry, including, for some reason, the "See also" section. Since the page is protected and we have no idea what the dispute is about, I cannot see how anyone is going to be able to collaborate with FloNight and rebuild this article. Without revealing confidential details of the dispute, can we at least get an idea what topics are off-limits here? Zachlipton (talk) 11:07, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Would anyone object to restoring the following cited sentences to the article: "Industry publications such as Publishers Weekly and School Library Journal have reported sales figures of over 250 million copies for the period between 1979 and 1998.[1][2] Books from the series have been translated into at least 38 languages.[1]" Kaldari (talk) 21:22, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, can I re-add the See Also link List of Choose Your Own Adventure books? Kaldari (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

• I have tried to help but no one will tell me what is going on or how to help.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 22:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I just left a message at User talk:Philippe (WMF)#Choose Your Own Adventure article asking about this. That brief discussion leaves me even more confused about all this, but since absolutely nothing is happening here and there have at least been two responses over there, I thought I'd point people that way. Zachlipton (talk) 01:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Time to unfollow this article to ignore whatever drama this is all about.  Xihr  02:43, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to ignore a potential Streisand Effect So I think I'll put this on watch. EDIT: was it this in particular that all this fuss is about? Phearson (talk) 04:22, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Why are you guys bugging Philippe? He can't help you (since he's acting as a representative of the WMF). I imagine that's the whole reason FloNight was brought in to handle refactoring the article. Talk to FloNight if you have questions about content. Talk to Philippe if you want to file a legal complaint. Where is FloNight anyway? Shouldn't she be watching this article? Kaldari (talk) 02:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to file a counter if you cannot see the actual request. Phearson (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

True enough. Still, I imagine Flonight would be the better person to talk to. 216.38.130.167 (talk) 17:45, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Kaldari- I'm as much in the dark as anyone as to the actual details, but I would point out that one of the pieces of information you just added was part of the anonymous reversions that plagued this page in October. I edited the page to reflect the fact that Chooseco is not reprinting the *series* (previous wording, your current wording) but *select books* from the series that they happen to have the rights to. This might seem like a negligible difference, but for someone who really cares about the original series, the distinction matters. Chooseco isn't republishing the series- they're republishing books they have the rights to (Mongomery's, Gillihans, books by their children, and any new books or books they negotiate for.) They are not republishing any of the books by the creator of the series concept, who was also the most prolific (and popular) CYOA article. I don't know how to reflect this neccesarily in the text, but it should be reflected. Seanmercy (talk) 18:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realize that might be controversial. Removed the last sentence pending feedback from FloNight. Kaldari (talk) 21:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

• Please add [1] and other sources cited below. I am not sure how we settle the fact that the major news stories from the 80s attribute foundation to Packard, and a few more recent smaller-press articles credit Montgomery (in connection with Montgomery's Chooseco outfit). What happened in reality seems fairly obvious to me at the basic level -- both were essential to the success of the series. Packard for the concept, and Montgomery for getting it to spread.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 23:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions for references

• What happened to the talk section about the article, with the references and such? I'd like to help, as this article gets 600+ views every day.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 16:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

• • I'm not sure why you cleared the bottom section with Milowent and myself supplying potential sources. Here are the links we provided previously-

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=p7QRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p-kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7034,3744016&dq=packard+cave+of+time&hl=en

1981 article about CYOA

http://go.galegroup.com/ps/i.do?&id=GALE%7CH1000075524&v=2.1&u=vill_main&it=r&p=LitRC&sw=w

Packard's Contemporary Authors entry, which should be definitive. Note the use of the possessive when referring to him and the series.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_nUfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XXUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1663,2191360

1981 AP article.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d6XmIUj_2E#t=31m30s

2010 interview with Packard re: adapting his CYOA books into iphone apps.

It seems clear that both of us would like to assist in the article. Seanmercy (talk) 17:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, I am eager to help re-expand this article with citation to reliable sources such as those noted by Sean above. They are many more articles we can use as well.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 04:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
• Here are few more references - please consider for article. Note that the first two citations, while also from 1981 (like the ones above), they are independently written articles and not just another of the 100s of papers that the AP[2] and NyTimes news service[3] stories appeared in (which should be cited as well, of course, but we've noted above):

• Harmetz, Aljean (27 August 1981). New chapter in children's books leaves the plot to the kids, Chicago Tribune
• Kraft, Scott (26 November 1981). Writes 'Decision' Books: Attorney Chooses 'Choice' Adventure, Los Angeles Times
• DeNike, Lisa (29 May 1983). Stories let reader make the moves, Telegraph Herald (reprint from The Baltimore Sun) (Montgomery will like this one because he is quoted in it and while it credits Packard as the creator, it gives Montgomery at least equal billing for being one of the two primary authors, and for being who Packard approached with the concept)
• (30 March 1984). Meet the Author of the Choose Your Own Adventure Stories, The Harlan Daily Enterprise (part of U.S. syndicated Mini Page feature, includes interview with Packard)
• Davis, Anna Byrd (Scripps-Howard News Service) (15 August 1984). Kids books put reader in saddle, The Miami News (includes quotes from Judy Gitenstein, senior editor at Bantam books, regarding the how the series started)
• Benedict, Rex (30 April 1978). Trust a Dying Pirate, The New York Times (a review by the New York Times of Sugarcane Island and Deadwood City; this predates the launch of the CYOA series by Bantam in 1979)

--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 15:34, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Nice work- those are some great sources! Eager to put them to work, should we ever be able to do so.... Seanmercy (talk) 16:10, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

You know, it occurs to me that while we're waiting for the results of this office action, we could use your resources listed here to bolser the related sections of the Montgomery and Packard pages. The former is especially unsourced and in POV-violation (weasel-language, etc). Seanmercy (talk) 16:48, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll review the sources that you added above. But my main concern is that we don't use material that is largely from Public Relations junkets which are going to be skewed towards creating a certain impression that may or may not be accurate. Instead by using scholarly works we will capture the importance that this series had after it was launched.

And while the other article are not under office protection, the same concerns would apply if the problem is introduced in those articles. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 17:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

FloNight♥♥♥♥ 17:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Comic Relief

[4] - Parody titles, protected under US law.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 05:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

WP:OFFICE is fine, but can you try to actually not be biased while you're doing it?

I understand that there's probably some lawsuit going on between Packard and Montgomery and that there was likely some complaint from Montgomery about us listing Packard as the creator in this article. Montgomery is probably right and we should have clarified the distinction between the two of them.

However, Kaldari, while you have stubbed this article and removed any description of the creator while this is going on, which is fine, you have somehow left in two references that discuss the new CYOA series that describes Montgomery as the creator. This is extremely biased beyond almost anything a POV warrior could manage. Can you please rectify this? Silverseren^C 06:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would tweak your comments so that they do not add speculation about any lawsuits. We do not have anything that supports that information. Remember, BLP policy applies on talk pages too.

Kaldari, didn't stub the article I did. He added a tiny bit of material back to make it met the notablity guidelines. In doing so evidently he caused some concerns by introducing a reference that some people don't like. I took out that reference not because that it correct or incorrect but because my intent was to remove all controversial material now and leave it stubbed in a totally neutral state until we gather sources for the rewrite. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 17:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

If it's not a lawsuit, then I am utterly perplexed about why WP:OFFICE was invoked on this article. Silverseren^C 17:24, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for striking that section of your comment. I'll make a more general statement as to the reason for this office protection in a few minutes. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 17:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

DMCA Counter-Request

Since this is an issue between the parties and not Wikipedia. Can we please file a counter request? I'm certain that when the issue is resolved we can update the article to reflect so. We are not ignorant copyright-infringers here, infact, what does the authors have to do with it? They are not specifically "copyrighted content". Phearson (talk) 17:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there's no reason to believe a DMCA notice was sent to the foundation at all. I can't see how there would be one, as there was no copyrighted content involved (and we have procedures for dealing with that if that is the case). The only likely explanation is that one of the parties has complained about the neutrality of this article, but instead of following well established procedure among the community to resolve content disputes, the path taken here seems to be to protect the page, provide no information whatsoever, and then ignore everyone who wants to help while showing no sign that anything is happening "behind the scenes" whatsoever. Philippe has said that "FloNight is in the midst of a series of extremely complicated negotiations about this article." As I said there, that is very far from how we resolve content disputes on Wikipedia. Certainly, negative unsourced material should be removed, and if needed, the page protected while consensus is developed, but having an administrator "negotiate" the content of an article off-wiki is so far outside the bounds of what WP:OFFICE seems to state. Furthermore, such a private negotiation cannot be the basis for a future article, as other editors cannot possibly abide by a "consensus" we are unaware of.

Copyright complaints are easy, and even if we disagree with them, there's a clear procedure designed to protect the encyclopedia including an opportunity for someone to file a counter-notification if they dispute the claim. Here, this appears to be a neutrality dispute involving an off-wiki involved party. We should certainly do our best to make things right and accurately portray all sides of the conflict appropriately per WP:NPOV, using consensus discussions and if necessary, appropriate dispute resolution, but telling everyone to bugger off for weeks while a content dispute is resolved in secret by an admin is simply so far away from how Wikipedia works that it leaves me truly confused about this case. Zachlipton (talk) 21:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

That's actually often how WP:OFFICE is applied and it causes quite a bit of consternation almost every time. As I've stated before and I don't mind stating again, I have yet to see an WP:OFFICE action that was actually done right. Silverseren^C 22:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that whenever legal action is taken against wikipedia, Office actions are applied to the articles affected. I see no official statement as to what is the exact problem, other then some determining it from edit history, and shady "negotiations" taking place between the disputing parties and Flonight. Whatever lawyer/client is watching this, to please come forward and explain, or remove the restrictions imposed on us. Phearson (talk) 13:53, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I just hope that they don't try to take the route of ignoring us until we go away and leaving this article to not be fixed for months. Silverseren^C 15:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

To answer key points raised by several people:

1)To my knowledge of the situation, a DMCA Counter-Request is not applicable. 2)The person raising the issue is being assisted in understanding better ways to resolve the dispute and work with Wikipedia editors. The people involved know that usual dispute resolution processes such as RFC might be used with some content decisions. 3)We are looking for high quality scholarly sources to use as the main references for the article instead of the previous sources which were mostly short blurbs or PR related material. 4)I apologize for the delay but I do not think that rewriting the article piecemeal is going work in this particular situation. 5)Please no speculation about legal issues by Packard or Montgomery. This is entirely unfounded speculation and something that is not appropriate because we do not want to spread false information.

Patience please as we work to find sources that will make the article accurately reflect the cultural phenomena that the book series is. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC) ==