Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 18:45, 16 April 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Skepticism C‑class Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism articles
C	This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Media C‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Media, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Media on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MediaWikipedia:WikiProject MediaTemplate:WikiProject MediaMedia articles

C

This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Media To-do List:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : Mackay Radio
Cleanup : Media influence, Video game culture, Sound bite
NPOV : Content (media and publishing)
Verify : Multimedia, Alternative media, Alternative newspaper
Other :
- Answer requests for comments

Russia C‑class Mid‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
C	This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ukraine C‑class Mid‑importance

	Ukraine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles
C	This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Discussions:

RM Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, No consensus, 15 March 2022, Talk:Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis#Requested move 15 March 2022
RM Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → Propaganda and disinformation in the Russo-Ukrainian War, Not moved, 28 February 2022, Talk:Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis#Requested move 28 February 2022
RM Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → Disinformation regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, moved to Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, 26 October 2022, Talk:Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis#Proposed name change

Daily pageviews of this article

A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Ukraine conflict: Further false images shared online

Regarding a section I have added on Ukrainian bots

I recently added a sub-section on how around 90% of bots posting on the invasion are pro-Ukraine. I have used a source from The Print and the official website of the University of Adelaide. RT has also reported on it. Should I add the RT piece as another source (its article is a mix of analysis and biased pro-Russia rhetoric) or leave it? Thanks. RealKnockout (talk) 13:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"and that an overwhelming majority of these bot accounts" - not in source. Manyareasexpert (talk) 18:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When this gets published in a peer reviewed journal we can add it. Volunteer Marek 20:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Joshua Watt: "I am a lead author on this paper and I would like to point out that you have misinterpreted our results. We found that approximately 90% of ALL accounts contributing to the online discussion surrounding the war are pro-Ukrainian, not 90% of the bot accounts." Kleinpecan (talk) 20:25, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kleinpecan Yet in the same thread one of the user has posted the Australian source with ~80% of pro-UC tweets coming from the bot net, reaching 50K tweets per day. [[1]] Pixius talk 12:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://declassifiedaus.org/2022/11/03/strongmassive-anti-russian-bot-army-exposed-by-australian-researchers-strong/ Pixius talk 12:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I too agree. Based on that, we have consensus do not include this. My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Page title should be Russian Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis

Spiking propaganda and disinformation levels before an invasion has been proven to be effective multiple times in history. But, given the focus and coverage of mostly Russian disinformation, shouldn't this article be renamed to "Russian Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis" from "Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis"? I was confused as to why some disinformation spreading through western or UA offician channels which was discussed in our own western sphere wasn't included here.

In another note, in some sections it seems really unsubstantiated in some claims, sometimes pointing to sources whose original journalist sources have been retracted, or the infamous I'm of X origin thereby I can't be Y whereas there's actual articles raising concerns for a rise of Y. I'm sure there's guidelines accounting for bias and fallacy arguments for the editors. eagle al 10:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Generalization of Jewish people in the Allegations of Nazism section

It says "The Jews of Ukraine similarly rejected Putin's propaganda", linking to History of the Jews in Ukraine, but the source for this statement is a Politico article with quotes from interviews with Jewish Ukrainian civilians. Suffice it to say an ethnoreligious group as a whole is *not* capable of accepting or rejecting propaganda, Individuals and organizations are. Language like that does NOT belong on Wikipedia. It would be best to scrap this line and replace it with mentions of the relevant statements by President of the Union of Jewish Religious Organizations of Ukraine, Yaakov Bleich. 169.226.26.112 (talk) 15:15, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Kyiv regime" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Kyiv regime and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 25#Kyiv regime until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed name change

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. (non-admin closure) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 08:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → Disinformation regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine – As the disinformation is much more related to the 2022 invasion of Ukraine rather than the 2021-2022 Russo-Ukrainian Crisis (which is now recognized as the prelude to the invasion), shouldn’t this article be renamed to something related to the invasion, not the crisis (such as “Disinformation regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine”)? RiverMan18 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support, although a still better title would be Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, as there is disinfo regarding many topics related. The euphemism “Ukraine crisis” shouldn’t be used, as it has been applied to many different things since 2014 and before. —Michael Z. 13:24, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support - sounds better, but even better as Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 15:50, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support for Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Xcalibur (talk) 09:43, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This page ignores any shred of WP editing standards

Someone had even written "Ukraine doesn't have nazis - Zelensky's mother is Jewish". The level of brain rot here is staggering and the Wikipedia principles have clearly not been adhered to, but who cares if the point is to spread propaganda? Saying Zelensky's mother is Jewish is the equivalent of "I'm not racist, I have a black friend". Meanwhile, here are a list of articles from reliable sources that give a more accurate picture of Ukraine, but as they're pre-2022, you won't be able to list them on here:

[2]Profile: Ukraine's ultra-nationalist Right Sector

[3]Fears grow as Ukraine rightwing militia puts Kiev in its sights

[4]BREAKING BODIES TORTURE AND SUMMARY KILLINGS IN EASTERN UKRAINE

[5]Ukrainian Far-Right Extremists Receive State Funds to Teach "Patriotism" Apeholder (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above “brain rot” comment doesn’t exactly adhere to Wikipedia principles, either. And the sources are obviously chosen to demonize Ukraine and not to offer a neutral WP:POV and WP:DUEWEIGHT on disinformation during the invasion. If you like Amnesty, just browse through the headlines on their Ukraine news[6] and research[7] pages for an overview.

Interested in fascists in Ukraine? Let’s see what scholarly sources are writing in the last year about ukraine russia war fascism, as indexed by Google Scholar.

When Ukraine’s elected president was a Ukrainian, Russian disinformation insisted he was a secret Jew. Since Ukrainians chose a Jew, it insists he is a secret Nazi. The more things change, eh? —Michael Z. 19:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Michael You didn't really think that one through did you? You're basically saying "those articles don't put a narrative out there I want, try this narrative instead" and then you have the audacity to talk of a neutral PoV. Why are your articles fine to cite from, but different articles from the same outlets with just with not so much of pro-Ukraine bias, are unacceptable? How are you promoting a neutral PoV? Apeholder (talk) 16:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

None of your pre-2022 sources is about this subject. Think it through. —Michael Z. 17:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mzajac But these articles tell about the Nazi ideology in UC and the WP page states that this was a casus belli for RU to attack the UC Pixius talk 12:04, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is a pro-American, pro-Western source that draws almost exclusively from sources ran and controlled by western oligarchs, this is why the page is such a shitshow. bree Breeboi 13:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Azov

Either claims or rebuttals about Azov are conspicuously absent from the nazi section. Sennalen (talk) 01:53, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Works cited

The attached article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_Ukraine) used as empirical source material, list allegations, NOT evidence. in fact, the evidence (" "), is merely here-say based on few testimonies which are mostly second or third-hand, very limited, if at all, access to areas where levied charges took place and otherwise absolutely NO investigative evidence to not only justify levied charges, but justify why this organization should be treated by readers as a reputable, objective, or an authoritative source. It should be explicitly noted when 501(3)c,d,b's or combination of the sorts are agenda driven TAX-EXEMPT corps and have motives ($) for any lack of scientifical or empirical data driven analysis. NOTE IT 2600:8803:8600:3D00:6E:27D0:CE20:2E73 (talk) 10:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2023

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Change "In early 2023, BBC and Logically reported that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" to "In February 2023, a Logically investigation revealed that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" PurpleAsgard (talk) 16:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Question: why? M.Bitton (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Questionable article

Beyond the serious WP:WIKIVOICE issues in this article, it seems to pass off political narrative as "disinformation". Much of the content of this article talks about Russian "talking points" (as they are known nowadays). Talking points are not disinformation per se. They are simply narrative. This article seems to me a combination of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR build under a WP:NOTHERE premise. Entire thing should be scrapped. Its a good effort in terms of political propaganda but its not encyclopedic. Qayqran (talk) 18:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 92: / Line 92: @@
 Change "In early 2023, BBC and Logically reported that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" to "In February 2023, a Logically investigation revealed that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" [[User:PurpleAsgard|PurpleAsgard]] ([[User talk:PurpleAsgard|talk]]) 16:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 :[[File:Pictogram voting question.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Question:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> why? [[User:M.Bitton|M.Bitton]] ([[User talk:M.Bitton|talk]]) 00:54, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
+==Questionable article==
+Beyond the serious [[WP:WIKIVOICE]] issues in this article, it seems to pass off political narrative as "disinformation". Much of the content of this article talks about Russian "talking points" (as they are known nowadays). Talking points are not disinformation per se. They are simply narrative. This article seems to me a combination of [[WP:SYNTH]] and [[WP:OR]] build under a [[WP:NOTHERE]] premise. Entire thing should be scrapped. Its a good effort in terms of political propaganda but its not encyclopedic. [[User:Qayqran|Qayqran]] ([[User talk:Qayqran|talk]]) 18:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)