Talk:E. Jean Carroll

Citation style

This article's citations (current diff) need significant improvement. The refs themselves need to be formatted appropriately and placed in the body text with ref tags. See WP:FN, WP:REF and WP:CITET. Adrian M. H. 21:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Just read the biography portion and tell me that wasn't written by E. Jean Carroll. Getting an F in her only journalism class, etc. makes for a cute story, but it has nothing at all to do with anything important enough for inclusion into her WP page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.169.217.133 (talk) 03:38, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The whole rape allegation is indeed just a cute story and should be deleted as Wikipedia is not a gossip column. An F in journalism would be valid a consideration in deeming the accuser non-credible. (PeacePeace (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC))

Uh oh

Time to lock this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C4:C480:19E7:7DF7:DB9F:BD82:1CA2 (talk) 01:02, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Do not remove the references section. Eyer (talk) 01:12, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

As regards Personal Life (no marriage info in template?)

At least one source says that the "Trump photo" was at an NBC party (quote) with her then-husband news anchor John Johnson (unquote). Shouldn't there be this kind of material included, assuming that it isn't ghost-written by the subject of the article? 2600:8807:4800:463:65B1:98A5:DB60:DA5B (talk) 04:00, 22 June 2019 (UTC) (Dfoofnik in public mode)

I added her husband and made n info-box, his page is already linked to hers so I don't see why her page shouldn't be linked to him. Frakkler (talk) 10:38, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Vandal removed ancestry

Could someone please include this person's Jewish ancestry in the article? It looks like a vandal removed the ancestry.

https://www.jpost.com/American-Politics/Jewish-American-columnist-E-Jean-Carroll-claims-Trump-raped-her-593302

P0G41oxepU (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

This edit [1] wasn't vandalism. Acroterion (talk) 21:11, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

The source was bad but the information was excellent. P0G41oxepU (talk) 22:24, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

In general, Wikipedia articles don't mention religious identity or ethnicity along with nationality - "Jewish-American" is to be avoided, just as "Lutheran-American" would be inappropriate. Your edit to Paul Krugman's article was similarly inappropriate. If a person's religious or ethnic makeup is a significant part of their identity, it may be mentioned in the article. Since there has been much mischief with agenda-driven editors tagging people as Jewish, such edits are regarded as red flags. Acroterion (talk) 22:31, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Why does the Jared Kushner article mention that they are jewish? P0G41oxepU (talk) 22:43, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Because he is and because it's a significant component of his personal identity,. But he's not described as "Jewish-American." Acroterion (talk) 22:50, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

You said: "In general, Wikipedia articles don't mention religious identity." That observation is without a doubt false, I suggest you retract it. P0G41oxepU (talk) 22:54, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

The sentence "Paul Krugman is a jew" is problematic because it sounds like it was written by someone who is a fascist or anti-semite. It is therefore better to write that someone is a Jewish American. P0G41oxepU (talk) 22:56, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I said "In general, Wikipedia articles don't mention religious identity or ethnicity along with nationality - "Jewish-American" is to be avoided, just as "Lutheran-American" would be inappropriate." Don't selectively quote me. Read how it is handled in the Kushner and Krugman articles. Acroterion (talk) 23:01, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Lutheran American is very good. Please fix it for me. P0G41oxepU (talk) 23:12, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

hello
why not mention her Jewish ancestry, while many other people are told having jewish ancestors even when they are not themselves jews? Now, if for you "jew" sounds antisemitic, does "american" sound antiamerican, or "chinese" sinophobic?
It looks like her ancestry was hidden very conveniently, as a certain president denied to attack a certain country, and that upset another country which, somehow, has some ethnical links with the abovementionned woman who at the very same time pops out ex oblivio an alledged rape smany years ago so no one could even verify. Yet, I'm not accusing anyone about anything, that's just how things appear. Also, please get informed about Streisand effect
Regards,
2A01:E35:8BA5:E5B0:74AE:9BD7:38AC:68C7 (talk) 07:39, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

'Rape'

ELC says she doesn't want to call the alleged aggression rape because she does not want to disrespect women and children being attacked at the u.S.-Mexico border, but her description ("She continues, 'The next moment, still wearing correct business attire, shirt, tie, suit jacket, overcoat, he opens the overcoat, unzips his pants, and, forcing his fingers around my private area, thrusts his penis halfway — or completely, I'm not certain — inside me. It turns into a colossal struggle.' / Carroll added on The Last Word, 'It hurt, and it was against my will.'" (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/writer-e-jean-carroll-no-disrespectful-rape-charges-trump-1220447)) is clearly one of rape. Should the Wikipedia article use this term in more than just saying the BBC called it (a) rape (allegation)? 37.99.49.67 (talk) 02:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

She didn't call it rape, so we call it rape (in wiki-voice) only if it is the majority viewpoint of the sources. The reason why we quote BBC is because it seems to be a minority viewpoint. starship.paint (talk) 03:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, Ms. Carroll has so far refused to refer to the incident as a rape, yet what she describes fits the definition of rape in New York: "sexual intercourse ... by forcible compulsion." The Columbia Journalism Review reporting on the book excerpt published in New York Magazine, writes: "Despite the litany of claims against Trump, Carroll is only the second woman to publicly accuse him of rape." Despite her refusal to call it a rape, what she accuses Mr. Trump of doing fits the definition of rape and should be referred to as such.A.T.S. in Texas (talk) 01:54, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

There should be mention of the uncanny resemblance between her assault charge/fantasy with President Trump and dialogue from an episode of Law and Order: SVU (Theatre Tricks), right down to the location and the lingerie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.250.34 (talk) 17:18, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Is "rape" a correct legal term in New York? It seems to me that most states now have "sexual assault" instead of "rape" as the crime. (PeacePeace (talk) 02:50, 3 July 2019 (UTC))

We should definatly clear up the terms. Right now I can read the article and get the impression, that nothing at all happened. "It was nothing sexual" and not a rape. "Just pain" this reads like they had a little fight. It was only on this discussion page that I read, that she claims to have been penetrated, which, as said constitutes a diffrent picture than the one conveyed by the article. --Das Klügste (talk) 18:41, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

References

BLP Violation

The Rape allegation is not based on a reliable source. The Anderson Cooper interview shows that the accuser is not a reliable source, thus any allegation is not based on a reliable source. There are not even any actual witnesses alleged. All references to this allegation are defamatory and should be deleted per our standards on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a gossip column. (PeacePeace (talk) 02:43, 3 July 2019 (UTC))

That's not what 'reliable source' means in a Wikipedia context. It doesn't refer to Carroll herself, but to the media which have reported on her allegations; these have been reported widely in media sources considered reliable (such as Cooper's show), and as such are worth including here. (If the only source was Carroll herself, and her allegations hadn't been picked up anywhere else, they wouldn't be.) Their inclusion isn't making any judgment on the truth of those allegations; only recognising that they have been taken seriously by the media. Robofish (talk) 23:08, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

add Trump defaming ?

• https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/nyregion/jean-carroll-sues-trump.html
• https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/04/e-jean-carroll-suing-trump-defamation-065423
• https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/04/politics/e-jean-carroll-trump-lawsuit-defamation/index.html
• https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/amberjamieson/e-jean-carroll-suing-trump-lawsuit

X1\ (talk) 23:52, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Tone in 'Sexual assault allegations'

The section 'Sexual assault allegations' should be edited to fit WP:NPOV. The section places undue weight on whether or not her allegations should be described as "sexual assault" or "rape".

The sentence "Carroll refused to say she was "raped", instead choosing to describe it thus: "My word is fight."(link) is not supported by the source material. Carroll is not quoted as saying that and it is a misrepresentation of the article. I have removed this line as per WP:Vandal

I have flagged the article for 'Tone'. --CopyTheEdit (talk) 17:44, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

It is supported by the source, which says: On CNN, she explained why she preferred the word “fight” to “rape”: “I think most people think rape is sexy. Think of the fantasies.” (She explained later that she was referring to romance novels that depict men ravishing women. “This was not thrilling, this was a fight,” she said. “A fight where I’m stamping on his feet and I think I’m banging him on the head with my purse.”) M.Bitton (talk) 17:57, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

The quote "My word is fight" cannot be found in the article. I have removed it. Feel free to use the source to find a quote that she actually said, but we should be wary because the overuse of quotations is partly the reason why this section is flagged for "Tone" in the first place. --CopyTheEdit (talk) 18:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

It's not that hard to find the transcript of the interview[2] and other sources[3][4][5] supporting that quote. Therefore, I will restore it. M.Bitton (talk) 19:20, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Very well. Thank you. I added more of the quotation for context and have been copyediting the rest of the article. I am keeping "tone" tag in place because this section still has some serious issues. --CopyTheEdit (talk) 21:23, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Rape is "sexy" comment

@SPECIFICO:

My edit of the text below in the Donald Trump sexual assault allegation section was removed. The reverter, SPECIFICO, claimed it was "poorly sourced". However, it contained 3 citations to sources that are considered generally reliable at WP:RSP, all 3 completely quoted her statement. I included the transcript from CNN itself for reference. I will remove the Rolling Stone citation, I thought this would be considered a "cultural matter" but it is a bit contentious. I see no reason to believe it's poorly sourced beyond the rolling stone citation. His second reason for reversal was that it "elevated right-wing chatter". This is not a valid reason for this content to not be included, all that matters is whether it's verifiable and WP:DUE, which appears to be the case with the RS coverage. Additionally, her "rape is sexy" comment was covered by NYT and the Guardian. Both could be cited with the text. I believe my text should be restored.

In an interview on Anderson Cooper 360°, regarding her allegations against Trump, Carroll stated, "I think most people think of rape as being sexy." The comment was described as surprising and was mocked by conservatives on Twitter.

References

Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 21:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Slate and the Guardian had far more insightful things to contribute than this quote in question which seems to border on victim blaming. Slate: “Carroll’s essay risks a great deal, in short, to acknowledge the blundering human complexity of the situation.” Both sources note that Carol’s writing style all throughout her life has been frank and unusual. I don’t think it is helpful to hone in on the comment Carol made about the tendency for rape fantasies to be common in the general public [6] while in reality no one actually wants to be sexually assaulted (keep in mind that she’s served for years as an advice columnist). The quote is too problematic and doesn’t need to be in an encyclopedic article about Caroll. Cedar777 (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@Cedar777: there is a current discussion about this a WP:BLPN with a differing proposal. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 22:42, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• Comment this issue is being discussed at WP:BLPN#E. Jean Carroll Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 22:43, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

New proposition

Carroll chose not to describe the alleged sexual assault as rape, instead describing it as a fight. "My word is fight. My word is not the victim word ... I fought." She fears using the word "rape" is only helpful to Trump because she believes "most people think of rape as being sexy."

References

After a productive discussion at BLPN, I would like to propose this revision for inclusion in this article. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 00:07, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

The first sentence is OK. The second sentence was rejected for good reason clearly explained at BLPN, and shoud be removed. SPECIFICO talk 00:34, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: It was not rejected anywhere. The majority of editors at BLPN seemed to agree that this should be mentioned at some capacity. You are arguing against the pulse of the community, you were the only editor in the discussion who rejected this to be included at some capacity. You need to stop conflating you rejecting something with the community rejecting something, we're supposed to be cautious when accessing consensus of discussion we're involved. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 00:37, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I am afraid that I have come around closer to SPECIFICO'S point of view on this; I think maybe the first sentence is the important one, and the rest drags it down into needless and likely-to-be-forgotten detail. That being said, I still don't have strident feelings one way or the other on this. If we were to include the rest, I feel that it might be best to avoid "fear" being cited, even though it's in one of the sources. I just feel it's too loaded in the context. Eager to hear what others think. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 02:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

• Pinging those involved in the BLPN discussion, if they would like to be involved in this one. @Dumuzid:, @ScottishFinnishRadish:, @Morbidthoughts:, @GRuban:, @A. C. Santacruz: Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 00:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

  I'll have to take some time to review as many sources that discussed the allegation to see how her wording is handled before coming to any sort of conclusion about it, and I may not be able to dedicate that time to it for several days, but I will try to look into it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Sources and quotes that mention the Cooper interview

NYT June 2019 On CNN, she explained why she preferred the word “fight” to “rape”: “I think most people think rape is sexy. Think of the fantasies.” (She explained later that she was referring to romance novels that depict men ravishing women. “This was not thrilling, this was a fight,” she said. NYT Podcast June 2019 Every woman gets to choose her word. Every woman gets to choose how she describes it. This is my way of saying it. This is my word. My word is fight. My word is not the victim word. I am not — I have not been raped. Something has not been done to me. I fought. That’s the thing. It’s — Vanity Fair June 2019 Q: While talking to Anderson Cooper, you said that people associate the word “rape” with sexiness. You got cut off in that interview. Can you explain your thought behind that? A: You know, somebody explained it much better than me. Joy Behar explained it. She went on The View and got into an argument and she was defending my vision of the word “rape” being filled with sexual imagery. And fantasy connotations. She said everyone here has seen Gone With the Wind. She said, you know when Rhett Butler grabs Scarlett O’Hara and picks her up and carries her up the stairs? She’s fighting him. She is slugging his chest, and he is going to take her and he’s going to throw her down. They cut to a scene of her in bed as happy and rosy, and fulfilled as any woman. And many women have this fantasy. Nora Ephron. She’s written about it. Having her clothes ripped off by a group of men. The only way she changed that fantasy was she was wearing different outfits. It is a female and a male fantasy. Insider June 2019 While Carroll admitted to CNN on Monday that what she described is the definition of rape, she says that she doesn't use that word since "it didn't last long." She also said that she thinks "most people think of rape as being sexy." "I was not thrown on the ground and ravished. The word rape carries so many sexual connotations. This was not sexual it just — it hurt," she said, adding that she prefers to use the word "fight." By not using the word, Carroll said she avoids labeling herself the victim. Guardian July 2019 But she is unapologetic, as she is about her choice to avoid the word “rape” when it comes to Trump. She is convinced that rape is seen by many people – men and women – as “sexy”, and that by using it we are playing Trump’s game. “It’s a fantasy. ‘Rape’ is very sexual and I just hate it. If a woman is raped and wants to report it to police, they should be free to use the word, that’s their choice. But I’ve always feared that Trump can be helped by these stories.” Independent June 2019 On CNN, she explained why she preferred the word “fight” to “rape”: “I think most people think rape is sexy. Think of the fantasies.” (She explained later that she was referring to romance novels that depict men ravishing women. “This was not thrilling, this was a fight,” she said. “A fight where I’m stamping on his feet and I think I’m banging him on the head with my purse.”) NBC June 2019 Carroll told CNN’s Anderson Cooper later Monday that she’s glad Trump doesn’t consider her his type. “I love that,” she said. “I’m so glad I am not his type.” June 2019 She told CNN she's uncomfortable with the word "rape," but her description of the incident in her new book would legally qualify as rape. CNN June 2019 Carroll told CNN that when she talks about the incident, she does not refer to the alleged assault as rape. “Sexual violence is a horrible thing. I don’t like to say it about myself because to me it feels like I’m disrespecting the women who are laid low every single day and have no power to escape the sexual violence in their lives,” Carroll said. “Yes, it was an attack. Yes, it was against my will. Yes, it hurt. But I just can’t put myself on the level of other women who are young, who have children, who are victims of sexual violence for most of their lives.” WaPo June 2019 In an interview with CNN’s Anderson Cooper on Monday night, Carroll responded: “I love that I’m not his type. Don’t you love that you’re not his type?” ABC News June 2019 The writer, who said Donald Trump sexually assaulted her in the mid-1990s, told Anderson Cooper in an interview Monday night: "I love that. I am so glad I'm not his type. I'm so glad."

Ok, I took more time than I probably should have out of my day to look at sources about this. The majority of sources that mention the Anderson Cooper interview that I read did not mention the rape/sexy issue in the prose, although it was pretty close, and I'm sure I didn't find all of the sources. However, the sources that did mention it tended to be either more in-depth and higher quality, or interviews with the article subject. That it was being asked about in the interviews (except the NYT podcast) lends a bit of additional weight to WP:DUE arguments, in my opinion. It also seemed that the less in-depth pieces tended to go with the "not his type" quotes. In the whole of the coverage of the allegations, however, these sources are just a small slice. There are many more sources that don't mention the Cooper interview at all, and still cover the topic of the assault allegations. Most of these don't have any coverage concerning her use of assault versus rape versus fight. Many newer sources discussing the allegations in the context of the defamation case use the word rape uncritically. Also, I did not see any recent sources that mention the Cooper interview, or her word choice at all. In my opinion we should stick with the first paragraph, with no need for a follow up paragraph or sentence covering her specific word choice as it's a tiny drop in the flood of coverage about the allegations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:16, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Recent removal

Please keep in mind WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, WP:NOTNEWS, and most of all WP:DUEWEIGHT. The lawsuit stuff was over twice as long as the entirety of her career, and much of it had nothing to do with her. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:39, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

What Do We Need Men For?: A Modest Proposal

How about the article on this book by this author? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.98.105 (talk) 16:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

What about it? Dumuzid (talk) 16:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

It's already mentioned and referenced several times in this article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)