Talk:Gaza flotilla raid

Very one-sided documented

This article looks like a joke. If you want to document this conflict with pictures, there should be at least pictures of injured activists. Wait, Israeli stole all video material from activists and journalists and never gave it back. I wonder why. The IDF has "nothing to hide" about this raid I thought? Either way, showing pictures on this page of only injured Israeli soldiers and activists "attacking" potrays this raid wrong. As for the activists "attacking" (according to the dictionary: "to begin hostilities against") the smuggled video of Lara Lee clearly shows the IDF sniping from helicopters before they entered.Also, mentioning this video in the article seems necessary because it's a good source that shows what happened. Waiting for feedback and other Wiki-users to get a consensus, and edit this page. Because now it looks pretty much like it's written by a spokesman of the IDF. Tijs schelstraete (talk) 18:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

It does, doesn't it. My experience of this area is that it's very well protected by some very zealous pro-Israeli sympathisers who wouldn't know NPOV if it ran over them in a tank. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. And reading your comments here I see that NPOV is not your intention. MathKnight 18:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

And, dear MathKnight, is NPOV your intention? Who do you really expect to believe that after reading your user page, especially the part praising Israeli bulldozers that "have saved many lives". (Rachel Corrie anyone?) Apologies, but you really fit the description of "very zealous pro-Israeli sympathiser". But you won't admit it here even if a bulldozer runs you over.--Noblivion (talk) 20:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Please AGF. If the article is neutral, why is there a caption saying "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers" rather than "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to defend themselves from a boarding by IDF soldiers", or even just "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the ships activists"? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 00:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Haha, assume good faith when you talk about the "zealous pro-Israeli sympathisers" destroying the page? Such base hypocrisy... Plot Spoiler (talk) 06:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm talking about my impression of this and related pages in general and not naming or attacking any specific editors. Now, would you care to actually answer my point above, or just call me names? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 07:25, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Why there is a caption saying "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers"? beacuse it is the most accurate description to the picture. The activists attacked IDF soldiers boarding the ship. In other ships, when IDF soldiers boarded them in order to take control of the bridge and redirect them to Ashdod port, and they were not attacked by activists, the soldiers didn't have to defend themselves with force and therefore none were injured. In the MV Maramara, soldiers encountered lethal violence from Islamist activists, attacking them with rods, clubs, knives and slingshots. They first used only paintball guns (non-lethal weapon) and resorted to their sidearms (i.e. pistols) when they were under life threat from the activists. MathKnight 09:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

It is just as accurate to say that the picture shows activists preparing to defend themselves from a boarding action while in international waters. And more neutral again to mereley state that the picture shows activists... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Not, it is not. The boarding itself is not a violent action and is legal under international law (when IDF commando boarded upon ships smuggling weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah, none of their crew thought of resisting the boarding with violence). Therefore, the "defense" claim drops. Would you say a criminal shooting a policeman is defending himself from an arrest? The second suggestion, omitting the part that they are holding weapons and prepare to use violence against IDF soldiers, is removing relevant information. When they are holding rods and knives, and wearing gas masks, it is clear they are not there for a social encounter or a pep rally, they gathered wqeapons and gear to prepare for a violent engagement. The fact is that the activists prepare themselves to attack the boarding soldiers, this is what the photo shows, and this is what the caption says. MathKnight 10:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources disagree about whether the boarding was legal or not - as is stated in the article, so no, the defense claim does not drop. See, for example, the UNHRC report, compared to the UN Palmer Report. Even the Palmer report, which agrees that the raid was legal, says excessive force was used. Regarding the picture - are we looking at the same one?

"When they are holding rods and knives" - one of those pictured is holding a rod of some kind. One is holding what might be a broom. None are holding knives.

"and wearing gas masks" - none of the four people whose faces are visible are wearing gas masks?

As per the Foreign Press Association quoted in the article, "Israel is validating its own account by selectively using the seized video and equipment from reporters on board". The photo shows nothing more than 5 people on the deck of a ship and nothing more can be read into it. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Other pictures show activists with gas masks, rods, slingshot and knives. Even in this photo, it is clear that they are not cleaning the ship with broomsticks. As for the UNHRC, it has lost credibility by many, including the UN Secretary Generals, so its report doesn't prove anything and no one (maybe other than Turkey, Hamas, Iran and their supporters) takes it seriously. The Palmer reports clearly states that the boarding was legal. The activists had no right to attack the soldiers, as criminals don't have the right to shoot policemen, even if the policemen are trying to arrest them. Had the activists not attacked the boarding soldiers - no violence and no injuries would occure, as seen in other boats where the boarding ended peacfully and without violence. No one has claimed that the IDF forged these photoes (FPA only claimed it shown certain photoes and not all of them). This photo and other photoes, as well as the photoes and videos showing activists attacking soldiers with rods and knives, prove that the activist did prepare to attack the soldier and did attacked them. So the caption is correct - they did prepare to attack the soldiers. MathKnight 12:38, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

"Other pictures show activists with gas masks, rods, slingshot and knives." This one doesn't. "Even in this photo, it is clear that they are not cleaning the ship with broomsticks." No, they're not. They're standing/moving about a deck. That is all that the picture shows, nothing more, nothing less. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Waving rods with anger is not a recreational or peaceful activity. After waving the rods in an aggressive manner they used them to beat the soldiers. MathKnight 11:05, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

You're able to discern emotion and movement from a camera still? Good trick. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

@ MathKnight. I think shooting somebody in the head from a few inches distance can't be considered "peaceful" either. A video you can watch yourself of the execution of Furkan Dogan Dogan shows this clearly on youtube. There was also SNIPING before they entered as you can see on the Lara Lee footage. A handful of people responded with slingshots, kitchen knives,.. which is peanuts compared to what the IDF did. I'm not saying the activists their resistance was non-violent, but it was defense. This article and the pictures portray the attack as if the activists were the agressors. Don't forget passengers of others ships also were wounded by the agresisve way the IDF boarded.

I also want to address this: The IDF stole all the videos and pictures they could from journalists and activists who were on the ships, and very few got leaked. Most of the pictures used on this Wiki-page come directly from dubious IDF propaganda sites. This wikipedia article doesn't portray neutrality at all. There are plenty of allegations some of the pictures and short movie clips the IDF releases were forged. I'm talking about f.e. about the picture which is used on this article with the quote: "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldier". Tijs schelstraete (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, both sides on this talk page exhibit too much emotions (which is perfectly understandable, but inappropriate when one is wearing a hat of Wikipedia editor). On the question of the caption "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers" - I think both "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers" and "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to defend themselves from a boarding by IDF soldiers" are equally incorrect, and not because of partisan opinions, but because both are invalid WP:SYN. If some WP:RS has called this video or picture "preparing to attack" or "preparing to defend" - we would be able to refer to it as "such as such source has named it 'preparing to...'", otherwise all the analysis (would there be a loss of life if...) is invalid WP:SYN (essentially violating WP:V, which is fundamental to Wikipedia: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth"). As I understand, the only non-disputed fact about that video is that it is activists shortly before the boarding, so I would suggest to change wording to "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists shortly before the boarding". Ipsign (talk) 08:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Do we know the material originates from the Mavi Marmara, as opposed to a studio? This "footage" was released by the IDF. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the statement [1] with the edit summary "someone must cite a source to support the statement then restore it. WP:V compliance is mandatory. it shouldn't be difficult to source if it is true". People, please, this article is covered by sanctions. Statements must have sources. The statement has been challenged so someone needs to provide a source. Surely the IDF said something along these lines about this footage which could be used and attributed to them. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

This is more silly than I thought. The photo is from the official IDF flickr site. The caption says "Mavi Marmara Activists Prepare to Attack IDF Soldiers" so that is a suitable source right there that can support the statement as long as the statement is attributed to the IDF. I shall add the citation. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

2011 diplomatic crisis

Why is there no mention of Turkey giving Israel a deadline to apologize and lift the Gaza blockade after the Palmer report? Turkey actually recalled its ambassador and threatened to send Turkish warships on escort missions for future flotillas. I would think that this diplomatic crisis is a noteworthy topic to put in the article.--RM (Be my friend) 04:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Editing Suggestion

The article on the Gaza Flotilla raid contains lengthy in depth analysis of the raid of the Mavi Marmara and its aftermath. By contrast, the MV Mavi Marmara article itself, surprisingly has almost no content on these events. I suggest a more general paragraph in this article and the current content to be transferred to the MV Mavi Marmara. AnkhMorpork (talk) 20:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this suggestion. The MV Mavi Marmara article is about the ship itself and summarises both of the Gaza events in which she was involved, with main-article links to the full articles for each. If we describe the GFR involvement in detail there the article will be out of proportion. The events on board, are central to much of the rest of Gaza flotilla raid and belong, I think, in that article as at present.

Having said that, it is certainly true that GFR loads slowly and is about twice the "nice recommended size" of 60kb, so we should continue to look for possibilities to split it. The last split produced a 30k article but only saved about 20k from the original, because of the remaining summary and shared references, so we don't gain as much as we might expect. An advantage of splitting within reason is that each new topic has room to grow naturally. --Mirokado (talk) 00:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

For further reading

I would suggest the addition of another source under "Further Reading":

"Drawing a Line in the Sea: The 2010 Gaza Flotilla Incident and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict", edited by Thomas Copeland, Alethia Cook, and Lisa McCartan. Published by Lexington Books, 2011.

PoliProf (talk) 15:28, 26 March 2012 (UTC) PoliProf

Gaza Flotilla Massacre

"Gaza flotilla massacre" would seem to me to be a more appropriate title for this article. "Raid" does not convey the brutality or utter lack of regard for human life displayed by the Israelis during this "incident". It was a massacre. Let's call it what it was instead of trying to be politically correct in order not to hurt people's feelings. AnAimlessRoad (talk) 13:44, 19 April 2012 (UTC)