Talk:Gaza flotilla raid

Recurring topics

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Some topics have already been discussed, but keep reappearing. I would like to remind my fellow editors to read the following topics before making pertinent changes:

• /Archive_2#Activists or passengers? - decision was to keep "passengers" for now.

Please add to the list as you see fit. — Sebastian 20:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

ANOTHER RECURRING TOPIC: The wording of the accounts in the Lead. Talk:Gaza_flotilla_raid#Addition_of_qualifying_statements_in_the_lead

There was a recent change here. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gaza_flotilla_raid&oldid=365708414

Perhaps the wording should be discussed again.

Zuchinni one (talk) 21:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you might want to move that section down here? — Sebastian 21:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

If you like, I don't know exactly what the standards are for reformatting the Talk page and I don't want to confuse people by accidentally handling it wrong. Zuchinni one (talk) 00:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

close range shootings

The discussion has been moved to keep things organized.

SS Exodus in See Also

A few days ago, there was a section at the bottom of the article comparing the flotilla to SS Exodus. It was removed since the article was too large. Now that we have a See Also section, I believe including it as a bullet point there would not have any effect on the length of the article. As for relevance; a lot of reliable international news sources[Israel: remember 1947 and the Exodus ship - The Guardian][Exodus Revisited - The New York Times], [We've been here before ... but Israel has failed to learn lessons of history - Sydney Morning Herald], [Mavi Marmara and the Exodus - The New York Sun], as well as Israeli newspaper Haaretz[Fiasco on the high seas - Haaretz] contained reports relating SS Exodus to the flotilla. Both ships were heading towards the same region, contained civilians, were challenging a naval blockade, were stopped by force, and resulted in heavy international criticism. Now; you may personally feel that the flotilla's journey is not justified compared to that of Exodus, but you cannot deny the fact there are many similarities. Merely noting the similarity between the two events does not necessarily mean that both of them were justified or both of them were not justified. That is to be left to the reader. --386-DX (talk) 15:13, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Those are all editorials; WP is not an editorial. But I don't oppose mentioning the comparison in the article Reactions_to_the_Gaza_flotilla_raid if it's not already there.  —Rafi  15:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Support, should be added with well written description and consensus as comment (if consensus is achieved). --Kslotte (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in having it as a bullet point in the "See also" section on this article: after all, the two incidents have been compared by many commentators, it is not just a whim of WP editors to compare them. I'm not sure there's any encyclopedic value in comparing them at length, but if someone wants to prove me wrong then go ahead! Physchim62 (talk) 15:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

If I wasn't clear, I strongly oppose a link in the See also. Fair or not, RS based or not, it is still an editorial statement and belongs in the other article.  —Rafi  15:35, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

It is a comment made by multiple independent commentators; no more "editorial" than saying that the Gaza blockade is legal or illegal! Physchim62 (talk) 15:54, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

There's a big difference between a historical comparison and legal opinion.  —Rafi  15:58, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Not really, it's still just opinion. And, in the case of the blockade, much of the legal opinion is based on historical comparison! I'm not saying we should discuss the editorial pieces in this article, but a "See also" link seems more than justified to me. Physchim62 (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

A see also link is much more than "discussing" the editorial pieces, it's endorsing them! I still strongly disagree. I think we need others' input.  —Rafi  16:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that it's endorsing them, but yes, it would be nice to have a few more voices here. Physchim62 (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Support See also link per Physchim. Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Including the link to the page in the See Also section does not at all mean endorsing or opposing neither the flotilla, nor the raid, or anything else mentioned in the article. Of course there are various differences between the two events, but nobody can deny that there were at least numerous material similarities. It is not POV to note that. For instance; Haaretz article which compared the two events endorsed the Exodus but opposed the motivations of the flotilla. Some other person may very well endorse the flotilla but oppose Exodus. That's why the causes or the reasons for similarity are not mentioned in the article. The justifications of the events are for the reader to make. --386-DX (talk) 17:12, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with adding it. It's very POV to try to draw comparisons between stopping a group of activists who are trying to run a blockade to deliver aid to Hamas, and sending a bunch of Jews back to the concentration camps. Beyond that, it simply opens up a floodgate for more POV "see also" additions. The very next addition is going to be various acts of terrorism and murder perpetrated by Hamas or even 9/11, which are both also vaguely related to this story. My suggestion would be to only include things that are directly related to this story. That includes the MV Rachel Corrie and the blockade. But "Lifeline 3" should be removed, because it only has tangental relevancy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob drobbs (talk • contribs) 23:54, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Concur with Bob, plus my comment below.  —Rafi  00:07, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

386-DX, It's POV and there are between 1 to 0 similarities and 0 notable similarities. Do you want me to get to details? --Gilisa (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I will say it clear, any such comparison is political-even if was made by some journalists, editors are not allow to do it themselvs. I don't find serious base for such comparison, even (if?) Exodus was the organisors source of inspiration. In any case, adding picture is a way too much.--Gilisa (talk) 17:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

We don't need to rely on references in "See also". If there is similarities we should include it. --Kslotte (talk) 17:31, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

There is not even one single significant similarity and I doubt that any at all. The burden of evidence is on the one who suggest there are similarities and I can tell that this burden is immpossible to carry. It should not be included in the "see also". We try to keep this article clear of bias. --Gilisa (talk) 18:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

You may not see any similarities yourself. However, there have been articles and editorials published in numerous high-profile newspapers all around the world, including one in Israel, comparing the two events in detail. That fact, and the debate here, shows that there are at least some similarities. Exactly what those are is a matter of opinion, and that's why we're including a link and not a paragraph. --386-DX (talk) 19:12, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

There was no investigation committee suggested for the Exodus, everybody know who is guilty. This is not the case here and the comparison implying that the Israeli side is to be blame. Simple as that. Leave this comparison for Opinion journalists, I can't see any slightest connection between holocaust serviovrs refugees who just came out of Auschwitz and the activists on this boat (oh yeah, one of the activists is holocaust serviovor) who call IDF soldiers to return there. This is POV, to say the least, That's why it will not be here eventually. --Gilisa (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Your argument above at 17:12 UTC was the most reasonable so far, 386-DX, but I still argue that the connection is editorializing, no matter which direction one chooses to take it. To illustrate my thinking: I can imagine a newspaper report (as opposed to editorial) mentioning past attempts to run the blockade of Gaza, as the See also does now; I can imagine one quoting legal opinions of the blockade (as Physchim62 brought up); but I cannot imagine an objective news article mentioning the Exodus. All your sources are editorials. We can quote editorials with "This editorial says..." but we should not take cues from them on how to structure WP.  —Rafi  20:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose for two reasons: 1. It's WP:EDITORIAL, highly controversial and not NPOV. 2. It was cited to a WP:PRIMARY source (the editorial itself). It may be included in the reactions article on condition that a reliable SECONDARY source reported that somebody notable made this comparison in relation to the current event. Marokwitz (talk) 08:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: my reading of WP:SEEALSO is that we have broad scope to include or exclude what we want here, so including SS Exodus comes down to whether we think it's relevant - however tangentially - to Gaza flotilla raid. Beyond that, this is just my personal opinion: I live in the UK, and I think it can be a positive thing to show people like me that Britain's history is sometimes less than wonderful. For that reason I'm !voting: weak support (but don't care too much either way). TFOWR^{idle vapourings} 09:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose It might be cute to write an editorial about it but that is all. Realistically, I could see some inclusion in the article since a couple lines under the reactions section would actually cause less POV and prominence issues than linking it at the bottom with a bullet.Of course if it isn't good enough for the reactions section than it certainly isn't related enough for the see also list. Cptnono (talk) 09:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Exodus isn't anything really closely related. But on some points it is related. We don't need to cite on references for the See also section. If we include it we need to write how it is related. So far, we have failed in explaining the relation, since it has been removed or reverted. We need to put forward a suggestion of the whole "See also" structure exactly in words. And, that way reach a consensus. --Kslotte (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by We need to put forward a suggestion of the whole "See also" structure, I would refer to WP:SEEALSO, but as pointed out above, its pretty wishie-washy, and final editorial process ends here. I would leave it out for now. --Tom (talk) 13:05, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Strongly Agree  : there is an evident link in the story of the two "incidents". This link, or similarity, is the same part of world, the same geography . It could be easier for readers to understand the history if " exodus " is mentioned and linked directly in introduction or in another section. Samuel B52 (talk) 20:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

There are many other naval incidents that happened in the area. Some more relevant. For example Karine A Affair , Operation Four Species, and Struma (ship) (in which Turkey was responsible to the deaths of 768 men, women and children). I don't think that the Exodus is helpful in understanding the current article in any way. Marokwitz (talk) 20:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

=> This is not about Turkey but about State of Palestine and particulary about Gaza ( in which Israël was responsible to the death of 2,700 Palestinians, men, women and children by targeted killings, aerial bombings on ONU and university buildings - ex : article ) But the two "incident" also have similarities regarding the history of one land : the Palestine. How could we ignore that ? So, links are strongly recommended for understanding the situation and keeping accordance with Wikipedia policies as an internet encyclopaedia ( WP:SEEALSO ). Not only geography is concern, but it's also regarding Palestinian people and their history, and also State of Palestine. All links could be in "See also" section and "Exodus" in introduction. I live in France and even in French-speaking Countries, journalists have made the connection between the "Freedom Flotilla" and the "Exodus" ( ex :"from exodus to freedom flotilla" article). I agree we need to discuss about the " See also section" contents. Samuel B52 (talk) 11:58, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

OPPOSE: The only similarity is that both made head lines, most readers with limited knowledge of History have heard of the Exodus that's why the journalists mention it -and probably to smear the Israelis with the same repulsion it triggered towards the Brits-, these activists were not desperate refugees and they were not even detained, not all blocades are similar: the british blocade was for people and the israeli one for weapons, some people are emotionally mislead by a superficial point: the use of the same word. The Exodus comparison should be in the Reactions_to_the_Gaza_flotilla_raid article since they are just that, reactions, Hope&Act3! (talk) 09:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments on weapons found

"A senior military Norwegian officer Palle Ydstebø said that the pictures show no military weapons and many common items found on any boat, but that some of the items are effective battlefield weapons, including types of weapons used in the intifada, and indicate that some activists may have premeditated violence."

The source never mentions "effective battlefield weapons" or anything similar. He says (translation mine, may be inaccurate) "Concerning finds of gas masks and strong slingshots, it may indicate that at least someone on board was prepared to fight. The strong slingshots are of the same type used during the intifada. If people are hit by these slingshots on short range, it may hit eyes and lead to serious damage."

Original: "Når det gjelder funn av gassmasker og kraftige spretterter, så kan det tyde på at i alle fall noen om bord var forberedt på å slåss. De kraftige sprettertene er av samme type som ble brukt under intifadaen. Blir mennesker truffet av disse sprettertene på kort avstand, kan det gå øyne og føre til stygge skader"

There are also comments on the damage possible with wooden sticks and knives that "can damage and in some cases be fatal".

"If people are hit from these slingshot at a short distance, it can destroy eyes and lead to ugly wounds". Ketil (talk) 11:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The section on weapons found is fairly important. It would be good to have some sources in English on this.

213.243.163.221 (talk) 13:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is the section and the translation which mention battle field weapons (emphasis added).

"Second, the large number of ax and hammer handles. solid wooden handles is very good as a battlefield weapon, and there can be some of these that we see used in the movies IDF has released, continues Ydstebø.

"- Det andre er det store antallet økse- og sleggeskaft. solide treskaft er veldig gode som slagvåpen, og det kan være noen disse som vi ser brukt på de filmene IDF har frigitt, fortsetter Ydstebø."

"battlefield" is wrong, "veldig gode ... slagvåpen" means "very good striking weapons". Ketil (talk) 11:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vg.no%2Fnyheter%2Futenriks%2Fmidtosten%2Fartikkel.php%3Fartid%3D10008056&sl=no&tl=en

Personally I believe that a non-biased analysis of the IDF photos is very important to be included in the article. Does anyone question Ydstebø's bias? But I do agree that a non-biased expert report from an English RS would be far better. Anyone have one? -- Bob drobbs (talk) 20:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Is a kitchen knife, a wrench, or a railing really a "weapon"? Is that what the dictionary calls any of these items? If these sort of items were used in a clash, then propose "improvised weapons" as a more accurate term. Honestly if someone comes into my home and I dash their noggin with a frying pan, would I be accused of having had a "weapon" in my home? The way this article had been edited, yes, I would. So, propose simply listing what was used by the passengers, without adding the word "weapon" as a descriptor. Or else term them "improvised weapons." RomaC (talk) 22:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

A weapon is a tool used for hurting or damaging people. Clearly, iron railings and kitchen knives are weapons when used to attack people. (If the burglar attacked you with a kitchen knife or baseball bat, would you call it an unarmed attack?) "Improvised weapons" covers a lot of it, but not slingshots and the alleged guns. Ketil (talk) 11:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

"Improvised weapons" implies there was no advance preparation for violence, which is disputed. If it's used as a weapon, it is fair to retrospectively call it a weapon, whether it's for self defense or for aggression, as reflected by RS. If there's a specific sentence that uses the word "weapon" in a way you find misleading, do say so.  —Rafi  01:09, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I would tend to go with "improvised weapons" the sole purpose of these items is not to take into battle, but obviously can cause damage if used in a fight. Mo ainm~Talk 11:18, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes that's my point, the items in question are certainly not weapons per se, but, like a hairpin or a wine bottle or a fire extinguisher, can be co-opted for such a purpose. What concerns me is the suggestion that those on the flotilla had "weapons" and those rappelling from the choppers had only "toys" (the paintball game spin). This is of course the Israeli narrative -- that the raiding commandos were the vulnerable ones. The death toll, however, tells another story, one that is based on facts not conjecture, which makes for more policy-compliant content. RomaC (talk) 15:49, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

The term "improvised" simply does not fit. From the wiki article: "… objects are not physically altered in any way, in an effort to make them more functional as weapons". The passengers clearly modified common items so as to turn them into functional weapons, thus they aren't "improvised". However, the word "makeshift weapons" does seem appropriate.

RomaC, what makes you think that the article gives the suggestion the soldiers were _only_ armed with toys? From my reading of it, it seems very clear that the soldiers were _also_ armed with sidearms, and that those weapons were used against passengers. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

"Paintball guns"

Is this an accurate descriptive term here? Wiki defines paintball gun as "the main piece of equipment in the sport of paintball." Are IDF commandos also equipped with nerf balls? Can we be more specific, at least less euphemistic. RomaC (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

About a week ago there was some speculation here about the guns being FN 303s - at the time it was unsourced speculation. If we have a source that confirms that we can neatly sidestep using "paintball guns" by simply calling them FN 303s (and letting the reader make up their own mind about what "less-lethal launcher" means...)

I do agree that "paintball gun" is horrible. I have a nasty feeling, though, that it's such a snappy term it's bound to have been picked up by reliable sources.

TFOWR 17:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I recall multiple RS using this term. Not sure what's "euphemistic" about it. If it's a gun that shoots paintballs... No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

A paintball gun is a piece of equipment used in the sport of paintball. Police forces and some military forces use "non-lethal weapons" and "less-lethal weapons". The media, being lazy, equates the two ;-) It's euphemistic in that less-lethal weapons can typically fire a variety of different types of round, not just "paint", and that it equates a sporting "toy" with which many people are familiar with a professional piece of law enforcement/military hardware. TFOWR 17:35, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

It's only euphemistic if they weren't actually using paintball guns. Looking at the capture from the video, and the picture used in Paintball, they seem very similar. I'm no expert though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Fair point, and I'm no expert either. I'd still love to have a weapon article we could link to, if we could find a source for the weapon used. I'll have a hunt later... TFOWR 18:27, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer the description "riot guns" but everyone else is calling them paintball guns so we don't really have a choice. If you look at the Al-Jazeera livestream (near the end), you can see that the weapons that were deployed at the start had barrels that are far too wide to be assault weapons, and could only have been some sort of riot gun (of which paintball guns are one type). Physchim62 (talk) 18:49, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps "riot gear", [1] [2] --Brendumb (talk) 19:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

They are reported to be paintball guns , and the photos show what appears to be paintball guns. The paint balls may possibly be filled with an irritant ink instead of the standard type, but I didn't find confirmation . I see no good reason to use a less specific term. Let's stick with what the sources said. Calling reliable sources "lazy" and then using our own terms is not really compatible with policy. Marokwitz (talk) 20:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

If we can find even one reliable source stating their exact model, it should be mentioned alongside or replace paintball gun, which is an ambiguous term. FunkMonk (talk) 20:11, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed a number of sources ([Associated Press, San Francisco Chronicle, FoxNews, CBC use the specific term "riot gear", so maybe we should use that barring any more information.--Brendumb (talk) 20:14, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

This would be consistent with passenger accounts that the soldiers "used tasers, plastic bullets, stun grenades, and beat up the passengers" or Al Jazeera journalist Jamal Elshayyal, aboard the Mavi Marmara, who said "the first shots that were fired were either some sort of sound grenades...there was tear gas that was fired, as well as rubber-coated steel bullets...the live fire came roughly five minutes after that."--Brendumb (talk) 20:32, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't "riot gear" refer to armor rather than weapons? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The article is being archived quickly. A few days ago, in another paintball section, I attached the link to this article[3] which explains why paintball guns are used in situations like this. I also linked to our own Pepper-spray projectile article which describes what is perhaps the most common use of the guns. As the Slate article notes, Israel has (or had) not identified what type of ammunition they were using so we are probably stuck using the generic term. And I should say that in my experience, the preferred sporting term is "paintball marker" rather than gun. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:17, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much every RS used the word "paintball guns". We need to go with what most of the RS are saying, in the same way that the article is titled "Gaza Flotilla Raid" because that is what the RS were using. As for the first shots fired being a "sound grenade" I thought it was established that what the passengers heard was the stun grenade thrown onto the Israeli boat by the passengers. Zuchinni one (talk) 22:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Also the sentence in the lead begins with "The commandos said". Using the term non-lethal weapons here rather than paintball guns does not conform with either what the commandos said, or the terms that the RS uses. Zuchinni one (talk) 22:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, I'd be opposed to "non-lethal weapon", too. My preference is for a link to an article about the type of gun, but I suspect we're going to struggle to get confirmation that detailed. My objection to "paintball gun" is more a comment on sloppy journalism than anything else. TFOWR 10:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Watch this video at 36:00. These are obviously paintball guns, of the "the main piece of equipment in the sport of paintball" kind. You can both see and hear it. At 38:00 some Norwegian guy is also saying it's paintball rather than live ammunition. Not that this can go in the article using this source, but just for our general knowledge. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:54, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

The gun at ~36:00 certainly wasn't an FN 303. I don't think there's any dispute that these guns were firing paint, instead of, say, capsicum rounds or live ammunition. TFOWR 10:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, not even the IDF has claimed they were firing normal paintball ammunition. At least one activist speaks of "some kind of paintball bullets with glass in them that left terrible soft tissue wounds." (ref in article) Physchim62 (talk) 10:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

If you've ever actually played paintball, you know that the capsules break on impact and leave soft tissue wounds if they hit an unprotected area of the body. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:40, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Hurriyet photo

Was there any source confirming that this photo was from a journalist who witnessed the event?--Brendumb (talk) 17:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The pictures were taken by Turkish journalist Adem Ozkose. The picture we're talking about is #10 here No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:44, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The photo is one of a series that was published by Hürriyet, a leading Turkish newspaper so, yes, it's reliable by Wikipedia standards. It's interesting that NMMNG seems to know the name of the photographer, as that wasn't made public at the time the photos were released: they were released by the IHH, who said they restored them from the memory cards of cameras that had been seized during the raids. Physchim62 (talk) 18:55, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

He's credited in that link I provided. Not sure what's "interesting" about that. Pretty normal stuff. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

This picture shows a casualty and was not from a completely independent journalist who witnessed the event (i.e. it is from IHH/Reuters). Since the source is somewhat debated, why don't we move it out of the journalist account section and move it in to the casualty section and provide attribution there? Specifically, it could go to Gaza_flotilla_raid#Israeli_military.--Brendumb (talk) 19:36, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how that actually improves the article. Are you suggesting that IDF soldiers didn't get medical attention aboard the Mavi Marmara? Not even the IDF has suggested that. Physchim62 (talk) 20:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The picture Brendumb wants to move is the one with the soldier on the floor and a guy holding a knife next to him. You know, the one Reuters cropped to remove the knife. I'm not sure what a "completely independent journalist" means in the context of a photo. The photo shows what the photo shows. Unless someone wants to claim it was doctored? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:03, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Suggesting that the Israeli military casualties section might be better placement for the image.--Brendumb (talk) 03:17, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Go back to Auschwitz?

See this article where the IDF appears to have backed down from the claim that this tape is reliable: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/israel-youtube-gaza-flotilla The article should reflect this. PatGallacher (talk) 20:44, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that source isn't very clear. Here's one that's clearer about what happened. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:00, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

No More Mr Nice Guy's source is more expansive than the Guardian source. The current article reads

“ The Israeli media published an audio reproduction released by the Israeli Defense Force[84] of the purported radio exchange between the Israeli navy and the Define Y. ”

What is the Define Y? This ought to be fixed. NickCT (talk) 21:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

It is a a spelling error in the name of one ship, Defne Y. I just fixed it. --JGGardiner (talk) 22:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Asking for consensus to remove sentence from lead

The following sentence should be removed from the lead:

One activist on board said that the Israelis fired warning shots before boarding.

The alleged event "soldiers fired warning shots" is poorly sourced ("one activist said"), and the information that one activist said they did, while well sourced (to The Guardian) is not important enough to be included in the lead section.  Cs32en Talk to me  06:22, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

My impression was that this was backed up by more than the sources you mentioned. But if it doesn't then I agree with you it should not be in the lead. Zuchinni one (talk) 08:40, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

There were multiple sources for this sentence, but looks like someone removed them. Correcting it now. --386-DX (talk) 12:38, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

386 is right. There are quite a few sources for this and it accurately tells the passengers' account of the events. Zuchinni one (talk) 13:47, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

My problem is not that the information would be unsourced. I think that the account of a single passenger is not important enough to be included in the lead section.  Cs32en Talk to me  00:01, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Question about the use of the words "Victims"

• "A crowd mourns the victims of the Israeli raid of the Gaza flotilla" - I wonder whether using the word "victims" is NPOV? Perhaps "casualties" would be more neutral? The word "victim" normally suggests that they were innocent and not involved in violence. Marokwitz (talk) 10:08, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

  To my mind "innocent victim" would suggest innocence ;-) Similarly, "casualty" suggests "slightly wounded" (and equates the dead with the wounded on both sides). Personally, I think "victim" is fine to describe anyone who's died (with the obvious caveat that we avoid WP:POV adjectives like "innocent" etc). Besides, do we know yet whether all the dead were directly involved in the confrontation? (I'm assuming they were, but this isn't something I follow closely) TFOWR 10:19, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Photo labeled "The 19 year old Furkan moment of death"

"and then his life is put to an end with 4 bullets..."

what am I seeing here? where is Furkan? where are the 2 commandos? where do I see his body with 4 bullets? I'm not saying he wasn't shot, I'm just saying - this picture should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.69.238.124 (talk) 10:47, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Erm, no. The picture was published by a reliable secondary source, and the autopsy report showed five bullet wounds on the body of Furkan Dogan, aged 19. Much more problematic are the IDF photos just below, which don't come from a reliable secondary source and which have no reliable secondry evidence to support the events they purport to show! Physchim62 (talk) 11:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Where is the original source? All I see is an uploaded picture that claims something. Are the text and graphics in the original? Can we have a link? I'm going to remove the picture for now since it does not include a ref to a published source. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Erm, did you even bother looking before you removed it? In fact, the text appears to have been added the Institute for Middle East Understanding here, the original video is here. Physchim62 (talk) 12:25, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

There is absolutely no proof that the soldiers are using lethal force, or that the victim is indeed Furkan Dogan. The image caption is also POV. --386-DX (talk) 12:39, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to revert that since I don't want to violate 1RR, but I'd be very surprised if that caption will be allowed to stand.

Is IMEU considered a reliable source for something like this? Even if it is, the caption should more specifically attribute the text and graphics to them.

By the way, the same picture now appears twice in the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, didn't the autopsies say all the gunshot wounds were caused by 9mm rounds? Again, I'm not an expert but that doesn't look like a weapon that shoots 9mm ammunition. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Well someone else has removed the image, so there's nothing I can do about the caption: it was equivalent to the captions used on the IDF photos in the section that follows. If the IMEU is not a reliable source for the added text, then neither is the IDF for the added text on its images. I'm no expert on weapons either, but that was clearly not an act of self-defence on the part of the IDF. Physchim62 (talk) 13:17, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

What act are you talking about? I'm not even sure what I'm seeing there, to be honest. It doesn't look like the soldier is firing his weapon since there's no flash. I believe there would be some very obvious signs if someone was shooting 4 rounds (of 9mm ammo from an assault rifle?).

If we had footage from a few seconds before, I could tell you if I think this was an act of self defense or not. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:41, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

You can't see any flashes on the Cihan video, but the end of the barrel is hidden by the side of the deck from the cameraman's position. What you do see is the soldier bringing the rifle up, reloading, lowering it again, apparently shooting, bringing it up and reloading. There would be no point (or possibility) in reloading if no shot had been fired. There are 9mm rifle cartridges, so I don't think we can exclude the footage just on that basis. Physchim62 (talk) 14:14, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

So the theory is that Israel is using bolt action 9x57mm Mausers? And that Turkish doctors can't tell the difference to 9x19mm pistol rounds? :-) I frankly don't see that this video shows much of anything. Ketil (talk) 15:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the caption sounds odd, but as mentioned, until now we have just plastered the article with POV pushing images from an involved party, the IDF, with very little resistance, so people who whine about this new picture should go ahead and remove the IDF ones too. FunkMonk (talk) 13:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

On another note,about the photo which says: "IDF commando being treated by Dr. Hasan Huseyin Uysal, a Turkish doctor. Source: Free Gaza Movement", why did the activists offer to treat the soldiers wounds? don't the IDF have medics for that?....oh wait, the soldiers hands are tied, well now it's much clearer. what's not clear is why doesn't the caption mention that it's a captured IDF commando? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.69.238.124 (talk) 14:06, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Why should the caption mention that the IDF "commando" was captured? If anyone is stupid enough not to understand that, the text of the article makes it perfectly clear. The difference is that the activists gave medical attention to the captured IDF soldiers; the IDF left wounded activists to bleed to death, going so far as to prevent them from receiving medical attention. To call them murderous dogs is surely an insult to dogs. Physchim62 (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I think a citation is needed for what is claimed in the caption. Freakshownerd (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it can be noted that Turkish media has reported accusations that there is video showing the 19 year old was beaten and shot to death. But including a still with a caption suggesting that the video shows this isn't proper. Freakshownerd (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I just add an info about the photo, after seeing in Turkish Vikipedi this picture: http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosya:IDFS13_gosterici_tekmeliyor_ve_yakin_mesafeden_vuruyor.jpg.jpg. In English, the photo title can be translated to "Soldier beat and shoot passenger". Are two pictures (on this page and on Turkish Vikipedi) not same or similar? If not, I can add the photo from turkish Vikipedi to English Wikipedia.Kavas (talk) 23:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

who put that picture up again? and why? now saying: "Cihan News Agency wrote it was claimed that the snapshot was related to Furkan Dogan, who was killed in the incident.[96][97] Source: Cihan News Agency". first of all We already have the same picture, just scroll up and you see it, and second of all - all I see is 2 commandos, and a flag of Turkey, tell me where is Furkan and how that picture is related to his death? oh and third, bad grammar.132.69.238.124 (talk) 10:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, why don't you have a look in the article's history and tell us? You could ask the editor responsible, too.

I do take your point that the image is used twice (both instances right after each other). The image should only be used once.

now saying: "Cihan News Agency wrote it was claimed that the snapshot was related to Furkan Dogan, who was killed in the incident.[96][97] Source: Cihan News Agency".

... second of all - all I see is 2 commandos, and a flag of Turkey, tell me where is Furkan and how that picture is related to his death? - the caption appears consistent with the source and the image. Cihan claimed it was related to Dogan, presumably?

TFOWR 11:30, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Uninvolved admin input requested: see collapsed thread immediately following. TFOWR 15:43, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Stay focussed on improving the article. Raise concerns about other editors with them, or at WP:DR.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
To any admin reading this page: is the above considered acceptable discourse on talk pages? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC) It's straying close to general chat about personal opinions, rather than the article but I suspect as a former admin Physchim62 would avoid straying too far. TFOWR 15:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC) Saying "To call them murderous dogs is surely an insult to dogs" is "straying close"? I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the clarification. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:08, 12 June 2010 (UTC) As far as I'm aware, the IDF is not an editor here... or is it? And I notice that nobody bats an eyelid over the many caricatures which are made of the activists on this page, yet I get criticized for calling a spade a spade, as it were. Physchim62 (talk) 15:14, 12 June 2010 (UTC) As far as I'm aware, this page is under discretionary sanctions and your repeatedly posting your personal opinion and POV here is considered disruptive. Now that I realize you're a former admin, I think I understand why nobody is taking action. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC) I feel you can contribute constructively, without adding your own opinion. That said, discussions about individual editors do not belong here and should not have been raised here. I'm collapsing this part of the thread. TFOWR 15:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

you call wiping his blood off of his head medical attention??? pathetic. oh yeah and of course the IDF prevented medical attention from the activists....yeah you should always believe Palestinian members of the Knesset, they are quite reliable. and btw quite a few of the activists are lucky to be alive, if wasn't for the helicopters evacuating them to the hospital they would have died for sure.

There are several concordant testimonies that the IDF did not evacuate certain casulties, and prevented them being attended to by medical personnel on board, leading them them bleeding to death. That is a war crime, whether you consider the activists as civilians or combatants. The photo also puts down the IDF lie that the commandos were unconscious while they were in captivity, and escaped when they regained consciousness. The soldier is obviously conscious and being well treated in captivity. Physchim62 (talk) 15:01, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Per the sanctions on the I/P conflict, editors who find it difficult to edit a particular article or topic from a neutral point of view and adhere to other Wikipedia policies are counseled that they may sometimes need or wish to step away temporarily from that article or subject area. Physchim62, in your statement about "murderous dogs" have crossed the line, and I respectfully advise you to step back. Furthermore I remind all editors involved in this discussion - this is not a forum. Marokwitz (talk) 15:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Not defending the caption which may need reworking but come on, the notable aspect of this event is the killing of flotilla passengers. Reverting removal of the only image that reflects this, there are two IDF-annotated pics of commandos purportedly being attacked, not a neutral presentation. RomaC (talk) 16:06, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

The images in the IDF videos are described by multiple RS, not to mention are part of a longer video in which you can see the events leading to and after the snapshot was taken. The new one has so far been picked up by one activist group and is part of a 5 second sequence which isn't exactly clear. Also, maybe 1/3 of the pictures in the article support the Israeli POV, so claiming the presentation isn't neutral is a bit of a stretch. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal

Why was the image removed? Is Cihan News Agency unreliable? Doesn't the article include a similar Israeli image where the subject is not clearly visible, and one which was edited by the IDF?--Brendumb (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree this image is of the most notable aspect of this event the killing of the passengers as stated above by RomaC we already have images of IDF personel being "attacked". Mo ainm~Talk 16:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

If it actually showed the alleged victim, OR soldiers wielding the kind of weapon that killed him, OR a situation that could correspond to the autopsy, then maybe it would serve a purpose. As it is, it's just two soldiers and a Turkish flag, together with a very inflammatory text. (Or am I looking at the wrong picture?) Ketil (talk) 17:05, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Ketil, the picture had soldiers carrying weapons, and news source reported it may correspond to picture. IDF image doesn't show the victim either. Also, isn't it up to news agency and not us to do interpretation?--Brendumb (talk) 17:11, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Saying that a video that doesn't show anyone actually being shot or anyone actually shooting is a video of a specific person being shot is an exceptional claim and would require better sourcing than one news agency and one activist group. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Then why did you think YouTube was ok for IDF? What is wrong with repeating Cihan?--Brendumb (talk) 17:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

(ec)As I mentioned above, the IDF video is described by multiple RS, and also has a longer sequence where you can see at least some of what the caption is talking about, for example actual soldiers on deck in a melee as opposed to nobody near those two soldiers in the new video. Actual people clearly swinging rods/clubs as opposed to nobody clearly shooting, etc, etc. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Cihan said people shooting, and we know from autopsy and funeral people shooting, you don't think anyone died in raid? maybe we use different photo and different caption, but no reason to completely remove account of death which made event notable.--Brendumb (talk) 17:33, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the article talks at length about people dying in the raid and I don't think anyone is trying to remove that. I don't think you see anyone dying in that video though. Or anyone shooting. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

And Cihan say: "The last video shocked the world which is being claimed that the pictures is relating with the Turkish-U.S citizen Furkan Dogan(19) who had been brutally killed by the Israeli soldiers on the Mavi Marmara Relief Ship. In the video it can be seen that Israeli soldiers are hitting and kicking him and later killing with close range shooting. Pictures were created very big furious against Israel across Turkey." Not up to us to interpret. Do you have source saying it wasn't occuring? New York Times thought Cihan reliable and previously quoted a week ago.--Brendumb (talk) 17:40, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Cihan is obviously lying about this, since, as is obvious to anybody, neither the video or still shows anything of the sort, the soldiers wield guns of a completely different kind than the ones killing FD, and his actual wounds seem unlikely to arise from this situation. But, by all means, its an RS, so feel free to help propagate the propaganda and ignore facts. Ketil (talk) 18:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

So the Israelis are just kicking aroung a sack of onions they found on the deck, firing into it incase it's a terrorist in disguise? Physchim62 (talk) 18:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

From the video we have it's just as likely a sack of onions as it is Furkan Dogan. I don't see anyone shooting, either. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

So the IDF is now using assault rifles which have to be reloaded before they've even been fired??!! In the meantime, the "Israel's account" section of the article has no question of the IDF version, dispite the criticisms in reliable sources and the blatant inconsistencies in the different IDF accounts. Physchim62 (talk) 18:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

What is he reloading? One of those 4 shot 9mm assault rifle magazines? He must be a world record holder for reloading a rifle, too, if that's actually what he's doing there. Not so clear about that either. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:38, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If there are sources and they are reliable then it is not up to editors to second guess what is happening. The IDF being a protagonist are far from reliable and are being used. Mo ainm~Talk 17:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

@ Ketil have you a source which says that Cihan are lying if not it is just your opinion and means nothing. Mo ainm~Talk 18:10, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I shouldn't have used the term "lying" (since I don't have any RS sprinkled with holy water), I should have said "claims in clear contradiction of the obvious facts". You know, like how a soldier wielding what is probably a paintball gun (and certainly not a pistol) inflicts five 9mm wounds on both sides of the body. As it stands, the picture is interesting, because it shows a fairly strong Turkish propaganda effort here. Ketil (talk) 18:33, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Again according to your POV, what the video shows is IDF commandos kicking at something and then firing at it, I don't know what was being fired and at what. If a reliable source says it is one of the passengers then that is what we say here and as you are probably aware we use verifiability not truth, and let the reader decide. Mo ainm~Talk 21:18, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

We do indeed use verifiability. Please see this part of WP:V. A video not showing a passenger claiming it is showing a passenger being shot is an exceptional claim. You're going to need high quality sources to include it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Cihan is obviously confused itself. The link says "...which is being claimed that the pictures is relating with the Turkish-U.S citizen Furkan Dogan(19) who had been brutally killed..." So who made this claim? We have nonRS saying it but it appears to be scandal mongering ("look they shot him while he was down!!!"). So the source says that Dogan was killed. I could understand "video showing Dogan who was killed in the conflict" since that is not disputable that he died but even Cihan contradicts (or at a minimum is not clear) if that was the time of death.Cptnono (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

And since we have every indication that that is a paintball gun it is grossly inappropriate to imply that he was being "killed" by it even if RS describes what nonRS is claiming.Cptnono (talk) 23:42, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I am reverting a recent edit to the photo caption here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gaza_flotilla_raid&diff=367672151&oldid=367671669

My explanation to the editor who inserted this caption is HERE.

I am not removing the reference he added but perhaps it should be changed to an English language reference if one exists.

Zuchinni one (talk) 00:03, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

No argument from me, given the current consensus here. It might be worth pinging Itsmejudith - they might be able to help with an English source. TFOWR 00:23, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Replacement

Opposition to the photo argued on limited visibility of the victim is not valid -- we aren't meant to look at pics and decide what we think they show or do not show, we are meant to reflect what sources say about pics. Also this opposition (the victim is not visible) by some editors seems to indicate a selection bias, as the victim is not visible in this IDF pic either. If agendas interfere with neutral participation some editors should consider stepping back. The Cihan News Agency picture should be replaced in the article to balance those of the IDF purportedly being attacked, this is obvious. If, later, more pictures surface, we can consider these. RomaC (talk)

One of the main differences between the IDF picture pulled from a video and the Cihan picture, is that in the IDF video the soldier is clearly visible (though you correctly say he is not in the picture), while in the Cihan video the soldiers do seem to be kicking someone, but there is never any person shown. I think the main argument is not with the photo itself, but rather the caption about Israeli soldiers supposedly killing someone here. That is not at all evident and as wikipedia states, extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. Zuchinni one (talk) 02:26, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand that s/he's visible but not in the picture. RomaC (talk) 02:44, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Roma ... what I mean is that in there are two videos from which frames were taken for photos. In one video you can clearly see that it is a soldier being attacked ... even though the photo used does not have that soldier in frame. In the second video there it never shows the person who the soldiers are pointing their guns at, and it doesn't show them firing. Zuchinni one (talk) 05:58, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Nothing exceptional about quoting what the Cihan News Agency reported. WP:V say "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth ... not whether editors think it is true". We simply quote what Cihan already reported, perfectly verifiable. Like whether someone guilty of a crime, we just say "Someone has said someone is guilty..", not "Someone is guilty.."--Brendumb (talk) 02:38, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

It is verifiable that the news agency said this was a video of a killing. But that claim has zero evidence, zero verifiability, and there is no reason to believe it is true. This is just like the Israeli claims of "trash talk" as described below and neither deserves a place of importance in this article. At most they deserve a minor mention and a link. But even that seems to be too much for this. Zuchinni one (talk) 05:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The photo re-added here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gaza_flotilla_raid&diff=367708759&oldid=367692611 needs to be removed for multiple reasons. I have asked the contributing editor to remove the photo and given my reasons here: User_talk:Brendumb#Dogan_Photo. There are no major problems with the original photo itself ,and in fact it exists earlier in the article, but the text added in, and the caption are problematic. Zuchinni one (talk) 06:41, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Raising it up with the editor concerned it would take no longer than posting here, and is far more appropriate. Also consider WP:DR or raising the issue privately with, say, me.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Someone should report User:Brendumb for violating 1RR and edit warring a picture s/he knows has no consensus into the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:42, 13 June 2010 (UTC) You, uh, found the time to complain about an editor here but couldn't find the time to complain on their talk page, at WP:DR, WP:ANI or my talk page? TFOWR 11:34, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Picture is up again...132.69.238.124 (talk) 10:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

It is clear from other videos that the passengers were fighting back with rods/clubs/something long and hard (hehe). There is no dispute so it makes our work here easier. Even the source is not clear if the passenger was being shot dead in this other video. It is clear they were kicking someone but it is not clear that that was his moment of death ("...which is being claimed that the pictures is relating with the Turkish-U.S citizen Furkan Dogan(19) who had been brutally killed..."). It might be OR to put in "then shot with a paintball gun" so I could see not saying that but saying that was him being killed is just as bad since it is pretty clear that it is not factual. I don't mind the image at all but the caption is no good.Cptnono (talk) 10:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

If a reliable source claims that this is the moment of the death of an activist then that is what we say here, we can't second guess or add what we think it shows, IMO it shows nothing but I am not a reliable source. Mo ainm~Talk 10:43, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

We are under no obligation to repeat everything any reliable source says. We are allowed to use common sense and require better sourcing for stuff that seems like an exceptional claim, which this certainly is. There's a video where you never see any passengers or anyone shooting and a source claims it's a video of soldiers shooting a passenger. That's going to need more sourcing before it can go in the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:47, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

No, but we are under an obligation not to give undue weight to one side of a dispute. At present, we are using the IDF as if it were a reliable source, which it patently isn't, and applying a higher standard of inclusion to material which is disfavourable to the IDF that to material which a priori is favourable (I say a priori because it's hardly favourable if they're shown to be lying, but that's another matter). Such bias is unacceptable on Wikipedia. Physchim62 (talk) 11:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Misleading edit comments

Hello all,

There has been a recent uptick in the number of edit comments that seem to be a bit misleading. I am not going to name names, and I am not going to undo any of these questionable edits. I only ask that people be honest about the changes they are making and why they are making them.

I know that this is a controversial article and that the I-P conflict can sometimes generate strong feelings. But leaving misleading edit comments is a form of WP:Vandalism called 'Gaming the system'.

Lets all do the best we can to make this a good article and lets be as clear as we can be about the content of our edits.

Cheers, Zuchinni one (talk) 12:01, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

IDF video footage "doctored"?

I was looking up IMEU, and came across this link: [4] where they claim "The Israeli government released doctored footage to support the accounts of soldiers involved in the raid, which seemed to indicate they had been beaten with metal rods and chairs upon boarding".

Is there really any doubt that the IDF were in fact "beaten .. upon boarding"? I thought this was an established fact by now? Ketil (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

"Doctor" - to revise, alter, or adapt (a photograph, manuscript, etc.) in order to serve a specific purpose or to improve the material. Were the yellow lines the IDF added actually there in real life?--Brendumb (talk) 17:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

The IDF footage is certainly edited – I don't think the IDF denies it! "Doctored" is maybe a strong word to use, but don't forget that even the Foreign Press Association in Israel has complained about the IDF's "selective" use of footage seized from activists [5], and the Associated Press adds a sort of 'health warning' to the videos, say it has "no way of independently verifying the authenticity". [6] Physchim62 (talk) 17:50, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I know (of course) it's edited and selective, but the link implies the violence (by activists) is faked ("seemed to indicate", how's that for weasel words?:-). I don't remember this being contested before, (except immediately after the attack, when getting it wrong could be attributed to chaos and confusion) If there is actually any doubt about this, I (and the main article?) would like to know. Ketil (talk) 18:11, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I've not seen any serious doubt, no. If anyone has any doubt, they can look at the Al-Jazeera live-stream, but, you know, there are still people who the Apollo moon landings were faked! Physchim62 (talk) 19:13, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 79hm3H5mq4, 12 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

spelling: NGO's, should be NGOs

79hm3H5mq4 (talk) 18:56, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Done, thanks. Rklawton (talk) 19:08, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Video released

The Guardian reports on a video by Iara Lee, who was on the Mavi Marmara, being released.[7] Should the video be included as an external link? It is on Vimeo:[8]. Fences&Windows 19:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

There's a full one hour version of that video. I posted it above in the paintball section. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:49, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Here too, shorter version I think: [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketil (talk • contribs) 20:01, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Full 1h version is at [10] I think. Anybody watch it all, and find anything interesting? I also notice that the text below the video claims there are activists unaccounted for, but doesn't mention any names. I've seen this claimed in many places, but do we have anything definitive? Ketil (talk) 20:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Nothing much happening until 21 minutes, morning prayer commences and goes on to about 32. Seems to contradict sources claiming people were attacked while at prayer, at least. Ketil (talk) 20:54, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

At 36:32, in what seems to be the first action by IDF, they are firing painball guns at the activists (PB magazines in profile) Ketil (talk) 20:58, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

At 39 minutes we see some red liquid on a ladder - an activist (Espen Goffeng) says he think's they're using some paintball like stuff, he doesn't think it's blood. Ketil (talk) 21:05, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

The liquid looks too red to be blood, although some of the activists seem to assume that it's blood. Physchim62 (talk) 22:02, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

At about 40 minutes, he repeats it, says they're not using live rounds, and that they have landed ten people from a helicopter. I think he says "they've taken two of them", but it's hard to make out. At 41 minutes, we see a (second?) abseiling from helicopter. Ketil (talk) 21:19, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

There's confirmation that the flotilla had changed course before the raid (about 12min): we knew that already (they were heading due west at the time of the boarding), but it's the first secondary source I've seen for that. Physchim62 (talk) 21:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? What confirms this? Ketil (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

At 10:57, Lee is filming the Al-Jazeera broadcast, where Jamal Elshayyal reports that the organizers have decided to reroute the vessel to avoid confrontation with the Israeli forces, especially a confrontation by night. A couple of days ago, someone else had come to the same conclusion by studying the AIS logs that are tracked by marinetraffic.com, that's in the talk page archives somewhere. Finally, you can see from where the Sun is coming up later on in the video that the ship is travelling roughly west. Physchim62 (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

This is a very interesting video indeed. Here are some highlights (this is of course my analysis which won't go in the article without an RS saying the same thing, but I think it's useful for us as editors to get as clear a picture as possible of what happened)

• There are several cuts in the video, but it's continuous from 38:23-47:32, which includes the first part of the raid with the soldiers coming down from the helicopter.
• At 39:00 there's what might be a single live shot. There's a guy speaking in Turkish into a walkie-talkie, if anyone could translate what he's saying that would be great.
• You can hear the helicopters starting to arrive over the ship around 39:30. There's a laser pointer on the deck a few seconds later.
• The helicopters are above the ship at 40:00.
• At 41:37 you can see soldiers coming down from the helicopter.
• At 42:00 you can see three passengers firing slingshots at the helicopter/soldiers.
• At 42:48 you can hear what might be the first live shot if the earlier one wasn't. Another single shot at 43:15.
• At 43:27 they bring down a wounded passenger. I couldn't tell where he's wounded.
• Rapid fire at 43:35, sounds like someone emptying a pistol clip, then there's what I think is automatic fire.
• At 45:25 you can see them bringing down a soldier (not sure if he's conscious or not, he's not struggling).
• At 45:44 an American guy says that they have "two soldiers down there bleeding an wounded". We saw this guy coming up the stairs at 44:00. He has in his possession some papers with Hebrew writing he says were on the soldiers.
• At 46:10 you can see a passenger with a wound to the leg. Another one with wounds to both legs at 46:50.
• At around 50:00 (after the cut) there's a several minute sequence where you can see passengers armed with knives, chains, metal rods and clubs waiting next to a door.
• At around 53:00 there's a pretty graphic sequence of wounded passengers.
• At 61:00 (after daybreak) you can hear who I believe is MK Zoubi talking in English over the PA. No weapons fire is heard.
  

If someone could translate what the guy is saying in Turkish at 39:00, and the other guy in Norwegian at 39:10, that would be much appreciated. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

• Woah!. Can everyone stop making their own analyses of the video? Use what reliable secondary sources say about its contents, not your own interpretations or potential cherry-picking of snippets. Fences&Windows 22:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Fences. Some editors are having a field day with original research and interpretations of the videos etc., the great majority of which, of course, are IDF released, appropriated, edited and/or censored. This is not how primary sources are treated. RomaC (talk) 01:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Relative importance and weight: killings vs trash talk

On the utterance of trash talk by the passengers against the IDF, we have about 250 words:

The Israeli media published an audio reproduction released by the Israeli Defense Force[85] of the purported radio exchange between the Israeli navy and the Defne Y. The audio clip started with the message "Defne Y, this is the Israeli Navy, you're approaching an area which is under naval blockade." A man then said, "Shut up! Go back to Auschwitz!" Afterward, a woman said, "We have permission from the Gaza port authority to enter." A man later said, "We're helping Arabs go against the US. Don't forget 9/11, guys."[86] Another ship reportedly replied "Jihad, Jihad, Jihad."[87] An Israeli journalist who was on board an IDF ship confirmed the IDF accounts.[87]

Huwaida Arraf, who was on the Challenger 1, has confirmed that her voice is featured in the recording, but says that the presence of her voice in the transmissions proves that the audio has been edited by the IDF.[88] The captain of Challenger 1 Denis Healey rejected the authenticity of the audiotape, stating that "There was no exchange like this by anyone on any boat during the entire time I was piloting the boat".[89] A press statement was issued by Israeli Defence Forces in the attempt to clarify this descrepancy, claiming that "due to an open channel, the specific ship or ships in the Freedom Flotilla responding to the Israeli Navy could not be identified." The IDF also has released a longer version of the radio transmission between the Gaza Flotilla and the Israeli Navy in one of their websites.

On the shooting of the passengers and cause of death, we have about the same word count:

Nine activists were shot and killed in the raid, including eight Turkish nationals and one American national of Turkish descent.[179][180] The nine were all members of or volunteers for the IHH.[58][181] The names and ages of the dead are: Cengiz Akyüz (42), Ali Heyder Bengi (39),[182] İbrahim Bilgen (60), Furkan Doğan (19), Cevdet Kılıçlar (38), Cengiz Songür (47), Çetin Topçuoğlu (54), Fahri Yaldız, and Necdet Yıldırım (32).[183] İbrahim Bilgen was a Turkish politician from the Felicity Party.[184] Furkan Doğan was an American; his father said that he had not thought that he would be killed since he was an American.[185][186] Doğan was shot five times from less that 45 cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back according to forensic reports.[187]

Turkish autopsy results showed that all of the 9 people shot died of 9mm gunshot wounds, 5 of them from gunshot wounds to the head.[183][20] The British newspaper The Guardian reported that the activists were shot 30 times in total, with many of them fired at close range, according to Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine which carried out the autopsies.[188] Buyuk said that five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back.[188] At least four victims were shot from both front and back.[188] "From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies," Dr. Haluk Ince, the director of Istanbul's Medical Examination Institute, said, "the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters' distance from the victim's head."[20] Yalcin Buyuk said that 48 others suffered gunshot wounds and six activists were still missing.

Also note that the information on cries of "Remember 9-11!" etc., is in the top half of the article, whereas the info on cause of death was purged from the lead and now labguishes in the next-to-last section. If neutral editors see a relative importance and weight problem here, hope they will edit to fix. Respectfully, RomaC (talk) 02:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with RomaC here. I don't really understand why these disputed recordings are getting such an entire paragraph in the initial contact section, which I hope would be free from POV. Even if the recording were 100% verified and everybody agreed about them, I'm not sure how much this added to the encyclopedic content. At best this might be appropriate in the Israeli accounts section, but even then maybe its better to briefly mention it and link to a reference for those who want more info. Zuchinni one (talk) 02:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Zucchini, the "Israeli accounts" section is specifically regarding the boarding of the Mavi Marmara. Quotes from the initial contact, would not at all belong in that section. So, are you proposing a rather major restructuring of the article where "Israel/Activists accounts" become general rather than in relation to the Mavi Marmara boarding? As for encyclopedic value, I think these quotes would be rather important to show the motivations and goals of the activists. But I certainly agree that it should be cut down and reduced in weight. How's this as a 97 word version:

The Israeli media published an audio reproduction of the purported radio exchange between the Israeli navy and the flotilla. The audio clip started with the message "Defne Y, this is the Israeli Navy, you're approaching an area which is under naval blockade." A man then said, "Shut up! Go back to Auschwitz!" Afterward, a woman said, "We have permission from the Gaza port authority to enter." A man later said, "We're helping Arabs go against the US. Don't forget 9/11, guys." Activists along with the captain of the Challenger 1 have disputed authenticity of this recording.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 03:13, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi Bob, I respect your opinion, but I'm sorry, I just don't think that the trash talk, even if verified, belongs in the article. Perhaps a short addendum to the end of another portion of the article that mentions the IDF releasing videos like "The IDF released videos of the boarding as well as audio reproductions of the pre-boarding radio conversation" Zuchinni one (talk) 05:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Probably Bob drobbs suggestion is more reasonable. I'm not sure branding the exchange "trash talk" covers it all: this is not a banal F word reference. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 06:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

In my humble opinion the radio talk is notable enough to include in the article , since major controversies related to the incidence should be covered, if they are reported in multiple independent reliable sources. Marokwitz (talk) 08:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Zuch and Bob & support Bob's proposed wording. I did the same thing earlier (after discussion & agreement) but someone reverted it. Can't see how this could be described as a "major controversy" given the context of nine people being being killed. Misarxist (talk) 10:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Israeli censorship

See this. It appears the Israelis were confiscating all footage by the humanitarians even as they broadcast their propaganda footage. In the light of this surely Israeli videos fail the "reliability" test? We should remove all reference to Israeli propaganda videos to a footnote as they clearly didn't want alternatives to their carefully edited (or faked) footage to appear in the world media. Sarah777 (talk) 06:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

By the way, even if the "trash talk" re 9/11 etc is true it justifies nothing. In Europe free speech is a a given - you don't get slaughtered because of something somebody beside you might have set. The Israeli propaganda machine is scraping the bottom of the barrel and this article is entertaining such nonsense. Sarah777 (talk) 06:59, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

All of the above is your own personal POV. WIKI article should be neutral. ShalomOlam (talk) 07:04, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The above is referenced fact. Click on it and learn. The Wiki article should be neutral - it isn't. There is massive undue weight being given to Israeli propaganda. Sarah777 (talk) 07:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

While I agree that the Israeli censorship should be mentioned there is no evidence of faked videos and in fact much of the passengers' video and accounts confirm the statements and videos released by Israel. I don't see how any of the videos released by either side fail the reliability test. Zuchinni one (talk) 07:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

My point is that as most of the footage by the activists was confiscated by the Israelis, giving such prominence to the Israeli video is merely facilitating the one-sided Israeli propaganda. Sarah777 (talk) 07:43, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

We should use the photos we have. The Israeli's are censoring, but Wikipedia is not censored, and there are sufficient photos to show both sides of the conflict. Marokwitz (talk) 08:10, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

• Where videos have been released by the IDF, we should mention their provenance (i.e. let the reader decide whether they trust the IDF). Incidentally, I believe that this is the video Fences and windows mentioned above (however, the Guardian version is only 15 minutes long, I believe, against 60 minutes (?) for the version discussed above)? I had a quick look at the photos in the article just now, and there does seem to be a shift some way towards showing the victims (i.e. the dead) instead of the casualties (on both sides). I think this is good - for most readers the incident is notable because nine people died. I don't believe we should raise the issue of censorship (by any party) in the lead; however, I do believe that the Guardian is a reliable source, and that it's worth mentioning that video footage was confiscated by the IDF. In terms of censorship on Wikipedia, we can and do show what we want - what we want at any given time may give undue weight to one side or other. I don't believe censorship is the issue - it comes back down to WP:NPOV. Personally, I'd like to see more pictures of the victims, and less of the casualties (with the obvious caveat that I'd like to see no pictures of dead people - ever - but life sadly ain't like that). TFOWR 10:09, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Please retain chronological order

• Recent edits have moved certain events out of their chronological order. Remember, this is an article about a historical event. Please keep the article and it's lead in chronological order of events. Marokwitz (talk) 08:58, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Incidentally, the "the sequence of events is disputed" phrase seems to have disappeared from the lead: are sources now in broad agreement over what happened and when? TFOWR 10:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure, but certainly, now that things are more clear and there is less confusion, if the chronological order is still widely disputed then it should be written in the lead. Marokwitz (talk) 10:19, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
      • Things are clearer, granted, but there still seems to be dispute over points such as when the activists started to prepare to resist the boarding, or whether the first activists were killed before or after the IDF arrived on deck: these are fairly important points in both sides' arguments, so I'd rather there were some sort of warning to readers. Physchim62 (talk) 11:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

663 or 682 passengers?

The number of passengers on the flotilla is listed as 663 and 682 in different parts of the article. Most news reports and IDF statements say there were 682. Shall we go ahead and replace all 663's with 682's? --386-DX (talk) 11:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)