Talk:Kosovo

natural resources

that section has outdated information. more precise number is about $1000 billions. [3] 77.105.19.33 (talk) 20:35, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

According to CIA Factbook, Population

Ethnic groups: Albanians 92%, other (Serb, Bosniak, Gorani, Roma, Turk, Ashkali, Egyptian) 8% (2008) [4] --12:45, 27 November 2011

Why is there a section on the genetics of Kosovo Albanians? This article is about Kosovo that includes Albanians, Serbs, Turks, Bosniaks, and others.

The section on the genetics of Kosovo Albanians in the demographics section is absurd to be included. It does not represent the total population of Kosovo that include other ethnic groups as mentioned in the subject headline. The section on genetics of Kosovo Albanians should be moved to the article about Albanians of Kosovo.--R-41 (talk) 02:00, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. The supposed 'genetic make-up' of an ethnic group is not a topic relevant to an article on a contry or region. Eg, there is no "Genetics of French people" section in the article on France. The section has been removed. Slovenski Volk (talk) 10:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Since the ethnic background of people in Kosovo is something that has been subject to persistent controversy in the past, and has fuelled serious conflict, I think coverage of this would be a very valuable - but it would be better to see something which covers other parts of the population, not just self-identified "albanians". (If the genetic background of people living in France were particularly interesting, I'd be happy to see it covered in the France article). bobrayner (talk) 13:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The Genetic background is irrelevant. Too many editors here and even so-called 'scholars' make unequivocal conclusions based on highly tenuous data. The "genetic data" cannot show anything other than they all (Serbs, Albanians, Bosniaks, etc) are (i) actually rather related (ii) come from eastern Europe. It cannot tell us who is 'truly from Kosovo' and even if it could, it is irrelevant to western commentators. What matters is current majority and their political will. Slovenski Volk (talk) 00:11, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

And, there is a section on genetics of French [5], placed appropriately in the article on French people, not in the article on France. Likewise here, there are already genetics sections on Serbs and Albanians in relevant pages Slovenski Volk (talk) 00:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

So this section should be in Origin of the Albanians, or Albanians? 76.112.213.78 (talk) 23:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

My revert

I kinda reverted User:Biblbroks edits in the intro. I do not think the language tag should have been change to Serbo-Croatian, because I don't think it is. If does qualify as such, it still should not be changed. That is like calling the word "Britain" as American English because it is in the American English vocabulary. I also gave a reference for control of Northern Kosovo by Serbia. This is as per the 1RR probation rule. Int21h (talk) 20:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I think that the example presented isn't that analogous to the situation with the Serbo-Croatian lang tag vs. Serbian lang tag. I'd say it is more similar to the situation of having the word "lorry" tagged as of British English language (as currently the phrases Kosovo and Kosovo i Metohija i.e. Косово and Косово и Метохија are tagged as of Serbian language) compared to the situation of tagging the word "lorry" as of English language (as Kosovo and Kosovo i Metohija i.e. Косово and Косово и Метохија could/should be tagged as of Serbo-Croatian language). The way it is now it may be more informative yet it might be less accurate. As AFAIK British English is not a language on its own thus Serbian might not be a language on its own. But since this is a controversial topic and I am not a professional linguist, I am trying not to give my opinion on this. --biblbroks (talk) 21:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge with Republic of Kosovo?

See also: Talk:Kosovo/Archive_27

This [6] discussion makes a very good point. Having two articles about Kosovo one as a geographical region, one as a political region is a violation of WP:NPOV. I suggest to read it, as I said makes good points especially when it's compared to South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria. 76.112.213.78 (talk) 00:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I fail to understand how this is a violation of NPOV - if anything, it's the opposite. Nobody disagrees that Kosovo is a place, but plenty of people disagree that it's an independent republic, and others disagree that it's a Serbian province. So, saying that the place is independent (or part of Serbia) is POV. So, this is intended to be a neutral article on the geography, population, ancient history, etc., and we have other articles covering the claimed political entities which complement this one whilst not giving the impression that the position of Wikipedia is that the Kosovo place is definitely independent or Serbian. The fact that other Wikipedia languages, or the Abkhazia etc. articles, handle this differently is irrelevant. Bazonka (talk) 09:01, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Also per Bazonka's comment: there aren't just two articles about Kosovo (one about Kosovo as a geographical region, and one about Kosovo as a political region). Actually there are at least three: Kosovo, Republic of Kosovo and Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (if we weren't to count United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo). So this argument about existence of several different articles being POV is rather void, I'd say. Especially when compared to situation of having articles Taiwan and Republic of China - which, I think, is also a situation of having at least two articles about, somewhat, similar thing. --biblbroks (talk) 15:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. We had lots of polls on whether to split Kosovo. Despite certain editors repeatedly gaming the system, polls kept on returning the same consensus; "no". Then somebody went ahead and split the article anyway, there was an editwar, the wrong version got protected, and now we're here; a fait accompli. I would support a merge so that we're back in line with both consensus and with neutrality. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobrayner (talk • contribs) 14:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

When the split was done, the voices against it eventually subsided - I suppose because the arguments were not on their side. I am sorry if this doesn't sound like my best faith on your behalf but I must say it anyway: I don't remember reading anything coming from you which would suggest you had something (substantial) against the split. Also if I understand the Wikipedia's consensus building process correctly, the polls aren't a stable way to build one consensus. Discussion would usually be a better way. I am more inclined to the opinion that the consensus is more in line with the current situation as neutrality surely is. --biblbroks (talk) 15:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The voices subsided because we got tired of being ignored by the edit warriors that kept the split alive. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

So even if it were how you describe it - that there was an edit war about this - the conclusion from your words remains the same: it wasn't that important to you. So I believe that there was consensus for the split after all. --biblbroks (talk) 12:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. It's a violation of NPOV. "Nobody disagrees that Kosovo is a place, but plenty of people disagree that it's an independent republic, and others disagree that it's a Serbian province", means you're taking a side here, that of the people who disagree. So there's one article for the people who disagree with Kosovo's independence, and one article for the people who disagree with that being a Serbian province. PersonPaOpinion (talk) 14:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC) _{(User have 5 edits in article space. Sock... --WhiteWriter ^speaks 15:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC))}

If somebody disagrees with one position, that doesn't necessarily mean that it agrees with the position which is the opposite of the one with which he/she disagrees. This kind of reasoning is what I believe could be portrayed as black and white thinking. --biblbroks (talk) 15:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. I'm certainly not taking sides, and I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be disagreeing with. I was just pointing out the fact that if Wikipedia equates RoK or KiM with the geographical area of Kosovo, then that would be a POV position. The only neutral way to handle things is to treat both opinons as equal, and that can't easily be done in the main Kosovo artice - it's best to keep the different opinions separate. Saying that this approach is "a violation of NPOV" is bizarre and inexplicable. Bazonka (talk) 17:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per this arguments, per consensus reached below this archive link, per fact that this split was created by sock puppet IP also, and per fact that Kosovo ≠ Republic of Kosovo --WhiteWriter ^speaks 15:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Duplicate pages and overlaping http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Duplicate_articles#Rationale:

Kosovo

1)Kosovo is landlocked and borders the Republic of Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west and Montenegro to the northwest. The remaining frontier belt is with the Central Serbian region which is the source of international dispute

Republic of Kosovo

2)The largest city and the capital of Kosovo is Pristina (alternatively spelled Prishtina or Priština), while other cities include Peć (Albanian: Peja), Prizren, Đakovica (Gjakova), and Kosovska Mitrovica (Mitrovica).

3)After the Kosovo War and the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, the territory came under the interim administration of the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), most of whose roles were assumed by the European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX) in December 2008.[23] In February 2008 individual members of the Assembly of Kosovo (acting in personal capacity and not binding the Assembly itself) declared Kosovo's independence as the Republic of Kosovo. Its independence is recognised by 86 UN member states and the Republic of China (Taiwan). On 8 October 2008, upon request of Serbia, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution asking the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion on the issue of Kosovo's declaration of independence.[24] On 22 July 2010, the ICJ ruled that Kosovo's declaration of independence did not violate international law, which its president said contains no "prohibitions on declarations of independence".

4)Names of Kosovo.

5)History of Kosovo starting from Disintegration of Yugoslavia to Declaration of independence. ALL 6 sections.

Republic of Kosovo

1)Kosovo is landlocked and borders the Republic of Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west and Montenegro to the northwest; all of which recognise Kosovo. The remainder of Kosovo's frontier to the north and east is the subject of controversy and is with[clarification needed] the Central Serbian region

2)The largest city and the capital of Kosovo is Pristina (alternatively spelled Prishtina or Priština), while other cities include Peć (Albanian: Peja), Prizren, Đakovica (Gjakova), and Kosovska Mitrovica (Mitrovica).

3)After the Kosovo War and the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, the territory came under the interim administration of the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), most of whose roles were assumed by the European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX) in December 2008.[23] In February 2008 individual members of the Assembly of Kosovo (acting in personal capacity and not binding the Assembly itself) declared Kosovo's independence as the Republic of Kosovo. Its independence is recognised by 86 UN member states and the Republic of China (Taiwan). On 8 October 2008, upon request of Serbia, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution asking the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion on the issue of Kosovo's declaration of independence.[24] On 22 July 2010, the ICJ ruled that Kosovo's declaration of independence did not violate international law, which its president said contains no "prohibitions on declarations of independence".

4) Names of Kosovo

5)History of Kosovo starting from Disintegration of Yugoslavia to Declaration of independence. ALL 6 sections.

Repetitive information so MERGE.PersonPaOpinion (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

There is bound to be a certain degree of overlap in articles about similar topics - this is not necessarily a reason to merge, and of course there is scope for improvement. However, the main issue here is the principle, not the specifics. Bazonka (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

And those sentences are about it. Names are removed, as those should not be in RoK article. While EVERYTHING else is different, scope is different, article is not small, and not of minor subject, and therefor, WP:MERGE cannot be in use here. But i am sorry, but it is devastatingly obvious that we are dealing with sockpuppets here, and new users dont know how to cite the guideline and start merge idea on talk page. And i will ask for admin help in here. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 23:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support We should report Kosovo as it is, giving the situation as it lies on the ground. Yes, we can have an article about both governments (obviously with both establishing how effective their actual control is), but to create an article on a geographical area (which is defined by its political boundaries) is not NPOV but Political Correctness. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

So, you support merging the two articles but suggest having articles about both governments. I don't understand how should this be achieved. NPOV in your opinion would be to have article Republic of Kosovo linking to Kosovo - but wouldn't then issues with flags, government, whole infobox problems reemerge? --biblbroks (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It's quite simple to have a separate article on the Serbian administration. We have an Abkhazian version, Government of the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia. When Kosovo is discussed in English, it is for better or worse discussed as a (separatist) state. To create an article on an abstract geographical area doesn't fix NPOV. An article with decent text would. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 18:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The meaning and surely the usage of the term Kosovo was discussed earlier - during the discussion right after the split. And that, I would say, at large - with all that analysis and comparison of the WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidelines i.e. policies. As well as the WP:GOOGLE how-to. I mean the subject of this article is geographical area, but an area that isn't so abstract after all. Especially if you regard only the history that comes with the term Kosovo. And with the Kosovo as such. For example, wasn't the term Kosovo used to describe this area before the 2008 declaration of independence also? Its meaning didn't abruptly change just because some people decided to declare some independence. Or whatever somebody did. Not just the meaning but also the usage of the term - even if it were just because the media currently uses this term to denote the state. If it were, but it isn't. Say, the term Kosovo in the syntagma North Kosovo doesn't simply equate with the term Kosovo for the state/republic. It corresponds moreover with the region/(abstract) geographical area/call it what you want. And that's just one example: I haven't even considered all the uses in all the media and/or publications. Not to mention if I were to focus some analysis on the usage of the term in the publications before the year 2008 only. Why, we should strive more for eventualism than for immediatism... if we should strive for anything, for that matter. Also, why do you think that the current text of this article is not neutral - I mean since you say that there is some POV which should be fixed. If you do say that. --biblbroks (talk) 19:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Things change as time passes, and as an electronic encyclopaedia we can keep up. There was a massive shift when the government decided to declare independence, and it led to the present situation. The history, geography, etc. of Kosovo we need to cover with all usages in mind is done through the main articles of those topics. I've never said the current text isn't neutral. What I feel is that the creation of this article was a solution to a nonexistent problem. 02:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

But what has changed? There were clashes at the border/administrative line in North Kosovo with several people wounded and dead and you suggest that situation changed? To what degree - that Kosovo has now somehow magically become the Republic of Kosovo? I mean all the "fuss" about the separation of these two articles was in part done to solve the problem of simultaneous existence of several infoboxes in the article. The infoboxes for which one editor, who is now voicing support for remerging and who states he/she has always been against the split, stated they must burn in hell anyway. I assure you that this was no abstract problem. --biblbroks (talk) 12:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

A lot changed, most especially in the perception of Kosovo. Southern Sudan magically became South Sudan last year, and we reflected that. As for infoboxes, I think that an infobox for Serbia, which controls a very small amount of Kosovo, would not be appropriate. I'd assume however it'd be extremely clear from the beginning Kosovo was disputed. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Situation with South Sudan is different: for one thing it is a member of United Nations, magically or not, and, to the best of my knowledge, there was and there is no dispute about its sovereignity. Whereas there is about Kosovo/Republic of Kosovo/Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija. Also the smallness or greatness of the territory controlled by the Serbs of North Kosovo should not be used as a parameter since we aren't here to determine this smallness (greatness) and act upon it. Since you said it yourself - Kosovo was disputed - I must ask: why do you think it isn't anymore? --biblbroks (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it isn't disputed, I just disagree that a dispute means we need to create a new page to avoid politics. Kosovo is Kosovo. While it can be argued what it is, it definitely isn't two different things, which necessitate different pages. In reality, it functions as an independent state with a small area it doesn't control, rather similar to Serbia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Similar could be said for Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija: in reality it functions as part of Serbia with some area it doesn't control. Yet I wouldn't simply agree with either position. While ago there was an edit dispute (let me call it thus) about the "de facto control of Republic of Kosovo over the most of its territory" and "control of North Kosovo by the Republic of Serbia" in the first paragraph of this article. One editor agreed that it is poorly worded, since international institutions have more control over the territory than it is described in the article or acknowledged for that matter. Perhaps this stuff in the article still needs some work. Anyway I'd say that the matter isn't so simple as it is usually perceived. Also you posit that Kosovo isn't two different things, yet you say Kosovo is Kosovo - what do you mean by the term Kosovo itself when you say it like that? Republic of Kosovo? Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija? Or disputed region? Whatever you mean by the term, there might be different opinions, don't you agree? The usual point of meeting is that Kosovo is a disputed region and this article deals with this subject. I think that quite many editors in previous discussions agreed that this is most neutral. --biblbroks (talk) 14:12, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija hasn't had effective control since the beginning of the UN mission. That being said, I don't know the full details of how North Kosovo functions, although from what I know it seems to organise itself. When I talk about Kosovo I'm definitely not talking about the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija", and I doubt anyone really does, if only because by its own definition it covers more than what it considers Kosovo. Am I talking about the Republic or the disputed region? I'd say I'm talking about both, since they're the same thing. The only reason it is disputed is because of the republic. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Merge because its a duplicate content, leave as part of the information the fact that is a partially recognized and there are two governments acting on it: the goveremt of the Republic of Kosovo in the whole region beside the Northern tip not recognized by by countries that support Serbia, the Serbian government on the Northern tip, not recognized by countries that support Kosovo: 2 governments. What's here about not to understand?PersonPaOpinion (talk) 18:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

What's not to understand is why some people think that the current approach is POV. Sure, it might not be perfect, but there's no pro-Serb or pro-Albanian bias. Bazonka (talk) 18:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support For the same reasons we don't split Republic of France from France, Kingdom of Spain from Spain, etc. The modern political entity covers all the geographical area that bears the same name. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

France and Spain are utterly different; they're not in any way disputed. Please, think about what you're suggesting - equating Kosovo the place with the very-much disputed RoK is like disturbing a nest of POV hornets. Things have been so much more stable, with less arguments since the articles were split. Let's not go back there. Bazonka (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Republic of France is recognised by every entity in the world, undisputed ruler of territory of France, which is claimed by none other, while Republic of Kosovo rule only part of territory of Kosovo, it is widely unrecognized by majority of the world, and its entire territory is claimed by other, undisputed and politically older entity. Those two cannot be compared in any way, as they are 1000000 miles apart, both physically, politically and historically. Repetition of questionable and seriously faulty POVs, and empty ip s's and sockpuppets supports, not backed in arguments will not disturb cement consensus we gained on this page. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 22:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support largely per PersonPaOpinion. The articles represent two Ps oV for one place (unlike, for example, Cyprus and North Cyprus). Jd2718 (talk) 03:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support re-merge. I've always been opposed to the split, and I'm not convinced there ever was a valid consensus for it, outside the persistent pushing by editors with obvious national agendas. Far too much content overlap between the two articles; conceptual split goes counter to common English usage, and nothing in the inherent POV problems is grave enough to make treatment in a single page impossible. NPOV is better served in fewer articles, not in more articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

But you will not gain NPOV with this merge, you will only gain ultra-nationalistic article about Republic of Kosovo. As this POV proposition dont mention merger of Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija article, but only Republic of Kosovo. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 11:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Why we need two or more info boxes and mention all parallel institutions in one article. Situation is now clear. If content overlap is problem, then delete sections on history, geography from articles on Republic of Kosovo and AP KiM. -- Bojan  Talk  12:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose It's better to have three neutral articles, one about the region and the two about political entities, than to have one article that will be the scene of constant edit wars. If we put all information into one article, each party will try to remove content which relates to the political entity of the other side. Finally, we will get a POV article, that will be only about one political entity. That's why I can't support this merge proposal.--В и к и T 12:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose This is the case similar to Cyprus (disambiguation). So there are 2 separate entities, with separate institutions. --Alexmilt (talk) 13:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support I agree with Enric Naval. Also, it seems somewhat fishy that the Serbian editors gather at the same time to meatpuppet a decision (and not just this one, but others too).--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Many of users of serbian wiki have this article in whatch list. For example I sow now that, so I came here --Јованвб (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Kosovo is disputed teritory. So, that can't be same as Republic of Kosovo. This is obvious that there we have POV pushing and troling proposition. --Јованвб (talk) 22:45, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support, and block anyone that disagrees :) Wouldn't that make this a nicer place to edit. Obviously you cannot reasonably justify separating the articles about a region and its government, even if the governance is disputed. Prodego ^talk 22:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

But did you really read the justification? And this place already is nice place to edit, since article was split. 0% of vandalism and POV pushing. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 23:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

This is not the only example for existence of separate articles about region and political entity. See, Taiwan and Republic of China.--В и к и T 23:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The Taiwan and ROC articles cover different areas. Taiwan focuses only on the single island, the ROC article covers quite a few other islands as well, similar to Pulau Ujong and Singapore. The two Kosovo articles cover the same area. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Why would Repuvlic of Kosovo would have advantage over AP KiM? What if we want to merge AP KIM and Kosovo? This is the best, NPOV way. -- Bojan  Talk  01:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

And what about Western Sahara? It is disputed territory between Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Southern Provinces. Same as here. Note that self proclaimed RoK doesn't control North Kosovo. RoK claims sovereignty over the entire territory of Kosovo, but don't have control over the some territories..--В и к и T 00:46, 10 January 2012 (UTC)