Talk:Minneapolis

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rjensen (talk | contribs) at 21:32, 24 January 2023 (→‎Further reading: Minneapolis). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Featured articleMinneapolis is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 20, 2008.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 26, 2007Good article nomineeListed
May 1, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
June 28, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

To do

Things that need doing. We've lost time to a sockpuppet farm but we've gained an expert copyediting pass, for which I am grateful.

  • In Minneapolis#Waterpower;_lumber_and_flour_milling. Minneapolis led the world[clarification needed] in flour milling for 50 years.checkY[1]
  • tunnel collapse at St. Anthony Falls in 1869 checkY
  • In Minneapolis#Demographics. A 2015 report found racial and ethnic minorities in the city were unequal in education, with 15 percent of Blacks and 13 percent of Hispanics holding bachelor's degrees compared with 42 percent of the White population. While the standard of living is rising with incomes among the highest in the Midwest, in 2015, the median household income among minorities was below that of Whites by over $17,000 and the poverty-rate gap between Blacks and Whites was the widest in the US.[2][failed verification] checkY
  • The section Minneapolis#Annual_events needs sources.
  • Replace source: Encyclopedia Britannica, used in the Religion and Economy sections. checkY
  • Replace Dakota dictionary.[3] checkY
  • Restore 2020 census to Demographics, following lead from User:Svenskbygderna.
  • Source and rewrite old sentence from Minneapolis#Social_tensions: "Minneapolis contended with White supremacy, participated in desegregation and engaged with the civil rights movement; in 1968, the American Indian Movement was founded in Minneapolis."checkY
  • Help with about 50 dead links. Link notes here:
City Pages, the Minneapolis Public Library, Emporis are extinct now. (Today they are Racket and the Hennepin County Library and CoStar). Several dead links to them are not easily replaceable with new sources so I've left them in. Also left dead links to
  • Associated Press Minnesota pronunciation guide. AP tried hard to help us but the maintainer retired in 2020.
  • US Census source for Racial Composition in 1990 (Demographics table)
  • Jewish Community Relations Council (Demographics and Religion)
  • The city's first mosque (Religion)
  • Star Tribune article about Prince (in caption only)
  • Minnesota Business (extinct) and KSTP-TV articles about north Minneapolis (Cuisine)

References

  1. ^ Anfinson, Scott F. (1990). "Archaeology of the Central Minneapolis Riverfront Part 2: Archaeological Explorations and Interpretive Potentials, Chapter 4". The Minnesota Archaeologist. 49 (1–2). Retrieved January 7, 2021.
  2. ^ Guo, Jeff (February 17, 2015). "If Minneapolis is so great, why is it so bad for African Americans?". The Washington Post. Retrieved November 20, 2020.
  3. ^ "Minneapolis–St. Paul in Dakota and Ojibwe". Decolonial Atlas. January 20, 2018. Retrieved September 13, 2022.

-SusanLesch (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC) restored SusanLesch (talk) 23:36, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: photo in the Cuisine section

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Nearly unanimous No. Closed to save editor effort per WP:SNOW. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Should this photo of the Owamni restaurant replace this photo of the 5-8 Club in the Minneapolis Cuisine section? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should Owamni replace...
the 5-8 Club?
  • Yes. For two good reasons:
  1. Owamni won James Beard Best New Restaurant in 2022.
  2. Wikipedia cannot decide a winner in the dispute between the 5-8 Club and Matt's Bar over who invented the Jucy Lucy, by picturing one and not the other. Picturing both is undue weight for cheeseburgers. The current photo violates Wikipedia core policy at WP:NPOV. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SusanLesch: How does the photo violate WP:NPOV? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You unfairly picked your favorite to picture. Please stop arguing the same point over and over.
  • "There’s a war going on in south Minneapolis between two rivals... For half a century, these two bars on Cedar Avenue South have claimed to make the original, and best, Juicy Lucy."[1]

References

  1. ^ Jackson, Sharyn (June 22, 2017). "The Juicy Lucy: Two bars battling since 1950s over Minnesota's famous burger". Star Tribune. Retrieved December 17, 2022.
Thanks, User:The Banner. Owamni chef Sean Sherman also won James Beard awards in 2018 and 2019—we cannot call that recentism. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:28, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With the other restaurant having a history going back to 1928, focusing on rather recent awards for a 2-year old restaurant is RECENTISM. The Banner talk 17:59, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
COME VISIT MINNEAPOLIS! Eat at James Beard award-winning Minneapolis chef Gavin Kaysen's Spoon and Stable built in 1906, plus if I'm not mistaken his Demi restaurant building was built in 1918. Here's your invitation. 😃 -SusanLesch (talk) 18:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me, @The Banner: Owamni is built on the ruins of the Standard Mill built in 1878, also site of Fuji Ya, Minnesota's first Japanese restaurant. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The building is much older, the establishment not. I put a question mark at the notability anyway. The Banner talk 20:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand a little from reading your user page, so I won't press you. But the restaurant's notability is otherwise unquestioned: BBC, PBS Newshour, Le Monde, The New York Times, La Liste, New Yorker, NBC News and countless local sources. The time has come for indigenous chefs to be heard. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:59, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the actual article, you see 2 sources saying the restaurant has opened and 3 sources that it has won an award. The article does not prove its notability. The Banner talk 19:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But we digress, I have already answered this RFC and my opinion has not changed. The Banner talk 20:33, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Quite all right. I'd invite you again, to write the Owamni article, but you've made your exit. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:27, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - The photo of the 5-8 Club is both significant and relevant, per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. The article mentions the history of the 5-8 Club, and its connection to the mouthwatering Jucy Lucy burger. The photo itself is interesting too, and meets some criteria of MOS:IMAGEQUALITY. Regarding the photo of Owamni restaurant, all it shows is people eating on the second floor of a building that says "water" on the front, and nowhere at MOS:IMAGES does it suggest gimmicky "award-winning" restaurants get priority. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No or Neither - the best solution for these types of arguments is either "include both" or "remove both". • Sbmeirow • Talk • 04:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - The photo of people sitting at tables on the second floor of a dark building does not make for a good illustrative aid. The 5-8 Club is at least readily recognizable as a restaurant to the average reader, so if there is going to be a photo of a restaurant, it should be the 5-8 instead of Owamni. --Sable232 (talk) 20:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Where was decided to just remove the picture? The RFC was about replacing. The Banner talk 10:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@The Banner: Agreed. I have restored the photo. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:19, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes I don't believe that this or that WP quideline will provide our answer here. It's just a preference issue, IMO. The building photos are better than the hamburger photos. Of the two building photos, I prefer the Owamni. I think it's a good photo that adds a lot to the cuisine section. As far as a decision on whether Lucy or Indian food is more important to portray, is old or new better? Who's to say? In this case I'm saying new. Owamni was recently feathered on both PBS and NBC. The chef was interviewed, the food was shown, the history was presented, awards mentioned, etc. I believe that it shows a modern Minneapolis looking back at its roots and learning to appreciate them. Sectionworker (talk) 17:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lead image

One of four by Carol M. Highsmith
Skyline by the river

Hello. Opening discussion here for candidates for an image to represent the city in the infobox. Collages/montages have caused us recurring copyright violations over the years, and now the multiple image template only displays the Minneapolis Institute of Art in tooltips and on cellphones. Feel free to add candidates and !vote here. I think we can use a single good photo. We don't have any guidance from WP:USCITIES which refers us to MOS:LEADELEMENTS which says the lead image should be "representative" and the image used should be relevant and technically well-produced. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nr. 3: Aerial photo of downtown Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
I think this other photo (nr. 3) gives a better overview of Minneapolis then just the highrise in the city centre. The Banner talk 18:23, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's great! Thanks, I've never seen it. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia Commons, Category Skylines of Minneapolis. At your service. The Banner talk 20:28, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Number 2 or 3. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:42, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The multiple image template now shows the whole city on mobile. So my objection to it is over. Also the whole city appears in tooltips. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:55, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Magnolia677: Can you point please to the rule or guideline that says an article can't have a second photo of something pictured first in the lead image? The closest I've found is the common sense rule MOS:REPEATLINK (for links not images). -SusanLesch (talk) 13:19, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE states that images must not be decorative. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Magnolia677: Does that mean your edits like this are based on your interpretation of "decorative" and not on a specific guideline? I would say we disagree mightily on what would be useful to the reader of the section where these second images used to be. In this example, I can't believe you would send a reader back to the top just to find out if that was Minnehaha Falls they caught a glimpse of earlier. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe you would support multiple images in the infobox, knowing duplicates would be removed from the article. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Magnolia677: Third request. What is the MOS rule governing your deletions like this one? If there is no rule, these images should return to aid our readers. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Adding multiple images of the same thing would junk up the article with unnecessary images that readers would need to download, but perhaps a discussion about redundant and duplicate images could result in a policy about it. Seems like a no brainer to me, but whatever. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a compromise, I restored two, removed one, and left one out. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Snow emergency

Photo [uploaded] by User:SusanLesch

User:SusanLesch has reverted an edit to add the following (along with a photo she took uploaded):

After each significant snowfall, called a snow emergency, the Minneapolis Public Works Street Division plows over 1,000 miles (1,609.3 km) of streets as wide as possible—in "lane miles," enough to plow a lane between Minneapolis and Anchorage, Alaska.[1] Ordinances govern parking on plowing routes during these emergencies, as well as snow shoveling.[2]

References

  1. ^ "Minneapolis declares Snow Emergency". City of Minneapolis. November 29, 2022. Retrieved December 16, 2022.
  2. ^ "Snow Emergencies". City of Minneapolis. Retrieved December 3, 2020.

A "snow emergency" means the city is expecting over three inches of snow, so be careful where you park. In fact, this article indicates that a "snow emergency" is all about parking, and the city website also indicates that a snow emergency is all about parking. Seems kinda trivial for an article about a big city that gets lots of snow. And why do readers need to know the distance to Alaska? The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 12:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I did not make that photo. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SusanLesch: The "snow emergency" is pretty trivial. Would you agree the article would be improved if it were removed? Magnolia677 (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No per my edit summary. This talk page will be improved when you stop to admit your mistake and give Andrew Ciscel credit for his ingenious photo. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SusanLesch: Not your photo, you only uploaded it. Let's focus on improving this article. Could you please tell me why you reverted an edit so you could re-insert the distance from Minneapolis to Alaska? Not all readers are from the United States, so many may find this "factoid" confusing. Also, do you agree that featured articles should avoid unencyclopedic "amazing facts" and the use of sensational comparisons? Magnolia677 (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Magnolia677: You accuse me of reverting but it was you who removed the entire paragraph—about the only perennial weather problem facing Minneapolis so far. This article has given credit to the Minneapolis Public Works department for fifteen years. Minneapolis without mention of clearing snow is unrecognizable. Excuse me, I intend to withdraw from this argument now. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:03, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SusanLesch: I have not found another article about a large North American city that mentions snow clearing (see Chicago, Edmonton, Calgary). And again, what is the purpose of informing readers of the distance to Alaska? I'd rather not take this unencyclopedic edit to dispute resolution, so I'm hoping you can explain your edits other than just saying those who clear snow need to be "given credit". This isn't a tribute page. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:21, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is unencyclopedic trivia, and the photo is a generic one that could've been taken almost anywhere. I say leave it out. MrOllie (talk) 16:35, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate images

Minnehaha Falls
Infobox image
Text image
Target Field
Infobox image
Text image

User:SusanLesch has added duplicate and similar photos to the article. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE suggests that images be not be "primarily decorative", and I question the encyclopedic value of multiple similar images on city articles. Unnecessary images also add an extra load for mobile users. The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia Commons has a c:Category:Minnehaha_Falls. If the editor who made the infobox image decided to pick off the same photo used in the article, perhaps it would be more fruitful to notify that editor than to engage the entire MOS community. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to adding back these duplicate images, you made a point that there was no policy about this. The input of editors more familiar with image policy would be of benefit. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I offered a compromise. You didn't respond.
  • The editor who made the infobox changed the image of Minnehaha Falls. You didn't respond.
  • Evidently the purpose of this thread is to enshrine your preferences in MOS policy. Development of MOS policy could better be done on MOS Images talk.
The reader should rule. Picturing something in the section it is discussed aids the reader in the most obvious way. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:59, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further reading

Greetings, User:Rjensen. You seem to specialize in adding further reading. I've spent nearly an hour trying to track down your most recent additions. WorldCat, the University of Minnesota Press, Google Scholar, and the Wikipedia Library can't find them by title. Care to explain where you unearthed these three books? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying ChatGPT--much in the news these days. It was easy to use and it gave very fast answers--reasonable-looking and FAKE . My apologies. Rjensen (talk) 05:24, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That I wouldn't have guessed. What a waste of our time! Take care. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like colleges and high schools are seriously worried about students doing term papers and take homes and Whatnot using AI. you should try it. ChatGPT is indeed very easy to use, and well written and (most of the time) ok-- but I've been learning in the last week that it's full of really bad mistakes. I will go back to using Google Scholar for bibliography. Rjensen (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Believe it or not, unpaid Wikipedia editor time has value. This bot was only caught because I checked. I'm not persuaded to try it. You really should clean up your act anywhere else you used it. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjensen: Where else on Wikipedia did you use ChatGPT? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:27, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Minneapolis was my only try. Rjensen (talk) 21:32, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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