Talk:Murder of Seth Rich

Interesting mention in the news today

As related to Russian state-run media and the narratives they push [1]. Geogene (talk) 17:56, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The only mention of Seth Rich is that a former Sputnik journalist said his employers asked him to put a question about Rich to Sean Spicer. TFD (talk) 22:50, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

And that that was the last straw, and he quit because of it. It's about 1/3 of the article. It goes into Fox News, Rod Wheeler, and his lawsuit. And "The Investigation Project" or whatever it's called is conspicuously absent. I find all of that very telling as far as WP:WEIGHT is concerned. Geogene (talk) 23:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

And that he was fired for refusing to do so. Jeez TFD. Choose your battles. :) SPECIFICO talk 00:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

We don't need this article to mention the Wheeler story, which has already been reported by other sources and is already in the article (See: Murder of Seth Rich#Wheeler lawsuit.) I would remind SPECIFICO not to repeat unsubstantiated claims, which in this case have been denied, as facts. Ironically, that is what you are accusing conspiracy theorists of doing. TFD (talk) 02:21, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

This article in its current form is inappropriate for a website that represents itself as an encyclopedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Wikipedia clearly states that articles be impartial, there is nothing impartial about this article. Any article that refers to an opposing view point of the world we live in as if holding those view points is stupid is clearly both partial and partisan.

The fact that this article still sits here in its current form casts doubt on the reliability of Wikipedia as an information source. You can say that it is impartial because that is what the news articles say but that doesn't account for the authers bias. There is also the fact that information can be shared with out sharing the biases of the original authors.

Note this is not about the content of the article. This is about the impartiality of this article and does belong here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:2433:B3F1:6391:92F6 (talk) 02:50, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

it's exactly because "this is not about the content of the article" that it does NOT belong here. See WP:TALK and WP:SOAPBOX. But whatever. Yawn. Volunteer Marek 02:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

I think you may be confused about what constitutes a soap box. This article in it's current form is a soapbox. It needs to be fixed so it's impartial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:2433:B3F1:6391:92F6 (talk) 02:57, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Please suggest specific changes you'd like to see. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:58, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Editors (even editors without an account) making POV complaints about an article would do very well to read WP:IRS, and using that as a guide, present reliable sources that explicitly disagree with statements made in the article. Without such sources, complaints about the POV of an article look like nothing more that ignorant, partisan whining. Such whining is unlikely to result in anything except a block of accounts (and yes, IPs without accounts can be blocked from editing just like logged-in users) that continue to engage in it. If you cannot find such sources, then please reflect personally on whether there is any merit to your complaints, instead of forging ahead and complaining here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:42, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Specifically referring to people who disagree as right wing conspiracy theorists is partial. That has nothing to do with the reliability of the source. How something is wrote is as important as what it says. This article shouldn't have an opening that insinuates that anyone who disagrees with law enforcement's guess that this was a botched robbery, based on nothing more than there being other robberies, is crazy. As an example of what an almost impartial coverage of the available information looks like refer here http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/05/is-this-even-about-seth-rich-at-all.html. The Wikipedia article screams left wing bias author. You don't need more references to make something unbiased.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Don't early archive. This is the sort of stupidity that happens when you early-archive talk page discussions. Instead of hiding the stupid rants, address then patiently and reasonably and leave the discussion up for the normal length of time. Not only does that cut off complaints of censorship, but it also reduces the chance that another newcomer will come along with the same sort of rant. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:03, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

If the objection was from someone other than the OP, I'd agree. But since the OP is the one objection, it's just a continuation of the disruption. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:09, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

• Archive soon; archive often - There is absolutely no reason to give airplay to this sort of nonsense. The OP should be referred to WP:VP or Jimbo's talk page. Also, what EvergreenFir said.- MrX 00:10, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I do not condone the OP's conduct in any way. But it doesn't matter who's being disruptive. Early archiving leads to more disruption than regular archiving. It's that simple. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:14, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I've early archived hundreds of discussions, and almost never is there a complaint except from people who are plainly using Wikipedia as their soapbox. Why reward users who are obviously WP:NOTHERE to help build an encyclopedia?- MrX 00:20, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I am here to build an encyclopedia, this article in its current form doesn't belong as part of an "encyclopedia". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:4403:344C:AE96:3770 (talk) 00:22, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Specific Content Issues

As previously stated, and then deleted and locked as to remain unseen, I pointed out that this article references these theories being "debunked by law enforcement" but references nothing that shows this. I should also point out that fact checking web sites aren't themselves sources. The references listed do not show that law enforcement debunked the conspiracy theory. The police stated that these claims are unfounded. (Look for yourself, here http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/may/23/newt-gingrich/claim-slain-dnc-staffer-seth-rich-gave-emails-wiki/, and here https://www.factcheck.org/2017/05/gingrich-spreads-conspiracy-theory/.) That means that there is no evidence to support these claims. Debunked means its not true. No one knows why Seth Rich was murdered. Clearly this article doesn't reflect that Seth Rich's murderer's motive is unknown or that little to no evidence exists of why he was murdered. I would suggest that the article use language that actually reflects the statements of law enforcement and removes fact checking websites from its sources.

It should also be pointed out that an article titled the murder of Seth Rich should not have information about a law suit in its introduction. I would suggest that this be in the article rather than the introduction as well.

Furthermore, this article states in it's introduction that the DNC e-mails came from a hack, there is little more than speculation from either side regarding this. (As can be seen here https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/.) I would suggest that there is no reason to have a reference from either side on where these e-mails came from as it is currently unknown, or statements with references from both sides.

It should also be pointed out that an encyclopedia, with sources or not, should not be using citations to state that something is fake news. An encyclopedia shouldn't be making figurative statements. I would suggest that statements such as right-wing conspiracy theorists, and fake news be removed from the article as they are examples of biased language. An encyclopedia shouldn't be using inherently biased language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:e970:4403:344c:ae96:3770 (talk • contribs)

The truth isn't biased; it is just the truth. If the sources describe it as fake news, so does the Wikipedia, to reflect that. TheValeyard (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I refer you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view. Whenever possible an article is to use a neutral point of view and the policy is non-negotiable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:4403:344C:AE96:3770 (talk) 01:22, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

IP, you may have located the neutrality policy, but you don't understand it. TheValeyard just summarized it correctly: Wikipedia articles are neutral towards sourcing, not neutral between different sides in a controversy. That's why what you're trying to do is going to fail. If the article were to fail to mention that the conspiracy theories about Rich's death are right-wing fake news, then the article would no longer be neutral toward the sourcing. You can complain as long as they will allow you to, I guess, but it's a waste of time because you're arguing from a false understanding of policy. As you said, NPOV is not negotiable. What you want will never happen. Geogene (talk) 01:49, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Your statement is kind of true, the neutral point of view article states that if a neutral point of view hasn't been taken then articles from the other side should be found and used to correct the bias. Clearly this article is biased, there are sources to counter balance it, and as such the article is required to have both sides. Or at minimum the article is suppose to use less biased sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:4403:344C:AE96:3770 (talk) 01:56, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

It's not correct that we automatically mention all competing viewpoints after we state a majority viewpoint in an article. The idea that an article must cover all sides is the "False Balance" misinterpretation of the Neutrality policy. We only discuss viewpoints in proportion to how prevalent they are in the bulk of the sourcing. Significant minority viewpoints are mentioned only if there's enough reliable sourcing discussing them. All other (non-significant) minority viewpoints are ignored, because this is a general reference encyclopedia and not a textbook or other exhaustive treatment. The Nation piece on the VIPS report, for example, is one out of many tens of thousands of sources discussing the DNC hack. That makes it microscopic. There were a handful of other articles about the Nation piece, but all of them were critical. In other words, the news was not the VIPS report, the news was that The Nation decided to report on the VIPS report without vetting it as much as they should have. In the big picture view, this is nothing in relation to the DNC hacks (and completely irrelevant to Seth Rich). Inclusion of (in the DNC hack) article would magnify it out of proportion in the sourcing, that would violate NPOV. And even if it were included, it would be a few sentences criticizing the Nation for taking VIPS seriously. So I think that this discussion is a dead end. Geogene (talk) 02:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

• There are NO reliable sources claiming that the conspiracy theories surrounding this death are plausible. There's nothing we can do to correct any such bias, even if we agree that it exists. And except for those editors with strong right-wing (or conspiracist) leanings, we don't agree that this article is biased. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

• It is not however written in encyclopedic tone. "It is not Wikipedia's role to try to convince the reader of anything, only to provide the salient facts as best they can be determined, and the reliable sources for them." There is no need to use the term fake news seven times or conspiracy theory thirty-one times. Ironically it's written in the same tone one would expect conspiracy theorists to use. TFD (talk) 02:53, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

As the primary author of this article (I mostly stopped editing in May 2017, so there have been some tweaks by others since then), I think the article looks amazing and serves as an example of how Wikipedia articles ought to be written. The language is clear, precise and mirrors that of the sources. Every use of "fake news" and "conspiracy theory" is warranted. We should not WP:WEASEL the language and WP:FALSEBALANCE the content to make the Seth Rich conspiracy theorists feel better. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:16, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

It really should have nothing to do with what side anyone is on. Sometimes articles are written more like propaganda pieces, more meant to push a belief than information and judging by your comments here in the talk and the biases displayed in the article, it is clear what side you fall on. It should never be clear to the reader of an encyclopedia article what the authors political views are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:4403:344C:AE96:3770 (talk) 03:24, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with Geogene, MjolnirPants and Snooganssnoogans. It is not Wikipedia editors' fault that so much conspiracy theory and fake news has evolved from a murder of a relatively unknown DNC employee. Wikipedia reports what reliable sources say. This article is remarkably well balanced. Covering the conspiracy theories and fake news that traveled far and wide in such a manner is very helpful to our audience, the general reader. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm a bit curious how an article that pushes either a right wing or left wing perspective helps anyone? The only way I can imagine it helping anyone is if your goal for the general reader is to support what you believe. As previously stated tone of a Wikipedia article should match that of an encyclopedia and articles should be written from a neutral point of view. It should also be noted that a neutral point of view according to individuals herein means no fringe beliefs, their support of what is fringe seems rather lacking though. Impartiality means looking out side your comfort zones, and not searching for ways to make an encyclopedia article match what you want people to know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:4403:344C:AE96:3770 (talk) 05:16, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

You're assuming that you're the neutral party, and that this disagreement is being caused by everyone else here being politically biased. I doubt anyone else is going to be willing to make that assumption, so progress from here looks limited. Geogene (talk) 05:56, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I am not saying everyone here is biased but if you can read this article in its current form and can convince yourself it is unbiased, there is no doubt that you are biased.

I.E. don't listen to the "conspiracy theorists", "I wrote the article", my statements show that I believe that believing in conspiracy theories is wrong as I referred to conspiracy theorists in negative manner herein, and I made sure to refer to conspiracy theory 31 times in the article.(Snooganssnoogans)

The Seth Rich murder article is "unbiased" though.

What matters is whether the article is based on reliable sources. It is. Any claims of "bias" or whatever are not helpful absent bringing some new sources to the table.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:34, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view).(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources)

The significant minority view points are not covered in this article. For example, I see no mention of the research being conducted at the Seth Rich Center for Investigations.

WP:RSOPINION

Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact. For example, an inline qualifier might say "[Author XYZ] says....". A prime example of this is opinion pieces in sources recognized as reliable. When using them, it is best to clearly attribute the opinions in the text to the author and make it clear to the reader that they are reading an opinion.

There are very few facts in this article. The facts are: Seth Rich was murdered, no one has anything more than speculation as to why, Fox News was sued for pushing an unsubstantiated claim, Seth Rich's family don't want any conspiracy theories pushed (not just the right-wing ones), the cops have stated that what fox news claimed is unfounded, and that is basically it. Everything else is speculation (the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence), which amounts to nothing more than opinion. If the article is going to be filled with all these opinions Wikipedia clearly says they need to be marked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1800:E970:54C8:94EB:182D:8DF6 (talk) 07:05, 11 January 2018 (UTC)