Talk:Murders of Tylee Ryan and J. J. Vallow

sources

• https://www.fox5dc.com/news/idaho-police-searching-for-children-discovered-missing-after-suspicious-death-reported
• https://www.eastidahonews.com/2019/12/despite-hundreds-of-tips-investigators-say-theyre-no-closer-to-finding-missing-rexburg-kids/
• http://cdaybell.com/
• https://www.fox10phoenix.com/video/641147
• https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/documents-lori-vallow-claims-she-was-god-preparing-for-second-coming-of-christ
• https://www.fox5ny.com/news/former-friend-of-missing-woman-kids-speaks-of-her-complicated-marital-past-with-two-husbands-dead
• https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/01/exclusive-daybells-served-with-search-warrants-in-hawaii/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CI7LMVj7qQ
• https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/chad-daybell/
• https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-breaking/2019/12/27/2-children-missing-idaho-tied-ongoing-investigations-arizona-joshua-vallow-tylee-ryan/2760105001/
• https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/chandler-breaking/2019/07/11/police-chandler-man-called-911-say-he-shot-family-member-fight/1704107001/ — Fourthords | =Λ= | 18:48, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Boudreaux shooting connection

This section was removed by Schazjmd (talk · contribs):

Brandon Boudreaux, Lori Vallow's nephew-in-law in Gilbert, Arizona, was the target of a drive-by shooting on October 2, 2019. The vehicle involved was a Jeep registered to the late Charles Vallow. Boudreaux had recently accused Lori Vallow of inducting his wife (Melani Boudreaux) into a cult. Melani Boudreaux left home for "Boise" in mid-October. On November 14, she was arrested by police for trespassing on her in-laws' American Fork, Utah property. When the Boudreaux's divorce was finalized in late November, Brandon received custody of their four children. On November 30 in Las Vegas, Melani Boudreaux married Ian Pawlowski, a Rexburg divorcee of four months. [1]

Edit summary: "removed section on Boudreaux, not relevant to topic of article, they're not mentioned anywhere else as connected in any way to the children's disappearance"

Oh, they're connected.

• "How a Gilbert drive-by shooting is tied to the Idaho missing children" -AZ Central.
• "‘Doomsday cult’ mom of missing kids is linked to recent attempted murder" -NY Post
• "Relative of missing children was targeted in drive-by shooting after their mother joined a doomsday cult with her new husband - and believes the group could also be behind the kids' disappearance and three suspicious family deaths" -Daily Mail
• "Shortly after 2 kids disappeared, someone shot at their family member" 12 news
• "Relative of missing children believes attempt on his life is connected to a religious group" Fox10 Phoenix

I think it should be restored, perhaps expanding on it to better explain the connection based on these sources. --В²C ☎ 20:01, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

The only connection seems to be Boudreaux saying he thinks they're connected. It could be written that way in the article, that Boudreaux makes the claim that what happened to him is connected to the disappearance (although certainly not citing Daily Mail, and I'd avoid the NY Post as well). Schazjmd (talk) 20:15, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

This wasn't a random shooting. The shooter was verified by police to be in a vehicle registered to Charles Vallow, the father of the missing children. The wife of the shooting target is a friend of Lori Vallow, and reportedly into the eccentric beliefs of Lori and Daybell. How is that not a bonafide factual connection? If I had just heard of this crazy case and went to WP to learn about it, I'd certainly want to know about this shooting. --В²C ☎ 20:29, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Born2cycle, if you start the section with "Brandon Boudreaux, Lori Vallow's nephew-in-law, claims that the children's disappearance is related to an incident in October 2019 when he was the target of a drive-by shooting. The vehicle...(etc)", then it makes a connection for the reader and gives context for why it's even mentioned. Schazjmd (talk) 20:44, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

J. J.'s dog

Could be used in the timeline.

Sources: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv3qzy0V9Mk: An Arizona dog trainer says he may have been one of the last people to see 7-year-old JJ Vallow before he and his sister Tylee Ryan, 17, went missing last September. Neal Mestas, of Gilbert, told Inside Edition that he trained a service dog, a Goldendoodle puppy named Bailey, for JJ, who has autism. He says he knew the family when they lived in Arizona and was "puzzled" when the dog was returned to him prior to their move to Idaho. - -https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/dog-trainer-lori-vallow-gave-up-jjs-service-dog-just-before-idaho-move: About a month following the shooting death of Vallow, Bailey was put up for sale for $2,500. Mestas says he received a phone call from Lori in August. "I'm picking up the dog, trying to help them out," said Mestas. "[Lori] said this tragedy happened, and she needed to move. She told me they were moving up north. I think she said Idaho or something like that. One of her daughters was in school in Idaho. She said they were moving up there to be with her, and so I said 'OK, let me see if I can find a home.' She said 'I need you to come get him right now.'" --Japarthur (talk) 23:28, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead length

Usedtobecool has added a lead too long tag to this article. I don’t agree that it’s too long. This story has several key elements that have to be mentioned in any useful summary. That’s pretty much all that’s in this summary.

That said, there is of course room for improvement in the lead. There might be too much detail about some of it. And anything removed from the lead needs to be ensured to be in the body. But there is no problem with length. The WP:LEADLENGTH guidance specifically allows four lead paragraphs for an article of this length (>30k; we have 37k). And that’s what we have: four paragraphs. —В²C ☎ 19:32, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Born2cycle, The length of the lead should conform to readers' expectations of a short, but useful and complete, summary of the topic. It did not conform to mine, and that's the only reason I tagged it. On the technical side, the article is 11K of prose, for which one paragraph summary is sufficient. Sometimes, it may be broken into two if needed. The four paragraph limit is the maximum, and is justified for topics like History of the world or Russia; here, the lead should give a straightforward 5W1H, around seven sentences are usually sufficient, maybe 10-12 if the topic is complicated. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:30, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Remains identified as JJ Vallow

One of the sets of remains have been identified as seven-year-old JJ Vallow here cookie monster (2020) 755 17:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Is the timeline really necessary?

At the best, the timeline needs extensive edits to make it more concise, readable and grammatically correct. At worst, it possibly introduces a myriad of irrelevant details and dates that only adds confusion to the whole article. Your thoughts? MundaneIndigoMan (talk) 06:20, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

While there is room for improvement, I think in general for this particularly complex story with so many inter-related events and incidents, a timeline is very useful. —В²C ☎ 19:07, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the style of the whole article needs improving, but the timeline does help to understand the chain of bizarre events. Salopian (talk) 22:30, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree, the events are too bizarre to really understand without a timeline. Kwallet (talk) 02:21, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

GA

I would really like to make this article GA in memory of the kids. It is very depressing that their remains were found, so I hope to honor them by making this article Ga in the future. DarklyShadows (talk) 19:35, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a memorial - it's one of the core policies. That aside, every article should be made the best it can be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.50.200 (talk) 17:46, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Location

Should the coordinates of Daybell's property where the human remains were found be put into the article? If anybody wants to, it is here: 43°54′48″N 111°46′36″W. Abductive (reasoning) 00:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

“[Summer] 2019 to February 2020” policy on using seasons for timelines?

For events that occur in the Northern Hemisphere, is it Wikipedia policy to use seasons for dating those events? This could be a momentary confusion and complicated for people reading it in the Southern Hemisphere. If there is such a policy, then events in the Southern Hemisphere likely follow a similar policy, causing confusion for people in the Northern Hemisphere. I consider it best to use months instead of seasons in the timeline, avoiding whatever the policy on seasons is.Rich (talk) 20:03, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree - I changed those headers to be more precise. Some1 (talk) 23:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Lori Vallow or Lori Daybell?

Should she be referred to as Lori Vallow or Lori Daybell? cookie monster (2020) 755 04:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Lori Vallow Daybell Seems to be most common in sources right now. —В²C ☎ 04:26, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Birth names are the most stable ones, iMHO. --Japarthur (talk) 16:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Reader confusion on charges

I read the article and one thing is not clear to me... Why is the mother being held on $1 million bail for a couple of misdemeanor charges? And why is the husband being tried for the four felony counts? It seems like the mother should be held responsible for her children's deaths and have the more severe charges. And who is being charged with the murders (assuming the kids were murdered)? I'm suffering some sort of disconnect...

Jeffrey Walton (talk) 06:22, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Question again about her legal name

East Idaho News recently published a court motion filed by Lori's attorney regarding Lori's legal name. Her Hawaii marriage certificate is also attached to the motion. Her lawyer says her legal name is Lori Norene Ryan Vallow Daybell but her marriage certificate says her new legal name is Lori Ryan Daybell. How should we describe the discrepancy? [2] cookie monster (2020) 755 00:59, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

JJ's birthname pre adoption should be in infobox right?

In the timeline it says Joshua Jaxon was born Canaan Todd Trahan. If this is true shouldnt it be in the inbox? Is it okay for me to correct this information? 174.216.132.59 (talk) 04:13, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

This whole article is a terrible mess

It contains a myriad of irrelevant details and dates and is all over the place. It's extremely difficult to follow along when reading it. It's completely unstructured and convoluted, I feel a major rewrite is required. 185.68.78.1 (talk) 21:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd never head of this case before and came here to get a quick summary. No luck! I gave up. Will need to find a different source to learn more. If I want ultra-levels of detail in a sort of info-dump format I know where to look. -- GreenC 21:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I also agree though I lack the time right now, it is terribly written and hard to follow, major rewrite is needed Conway jon (talk) 08:21, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Identification of remains section.

This section currently reads "they are no longer considered missing and the investigation is now focused on determining the circumstances surrounding their deaths". Is the investigation ongoing? Cleblutie (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 16 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 17:00, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

---

Murders of Tylee Ryan and J. J. Vallow → Murders of Tylee Ryan, J. J. Vallow, and Tammy Daybell – Since Lori Vallow has now been convicted of conspiracy to murder Tammy Daybell, as well as the murders of her children, Tammy Daybell should be included in the descriptive title of this article. В²C ☎ 05:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Support as while the events occurred at different times, they were all part of a larger scheme and ultimately part of the same trial. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Is this victim also bundled together with the other two in press coverage? Aaron Liu (talk) 10:55, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Of course. The trial was about the murder of all three. For example: "In addition to being convicted of first-degree murder in the deaths of the children, and of grand theft, Ms. Vallow Daybell was also found guilty of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder in the death of Tammy Daybell, Mr. Daybell’s former wife." [3] В²C ☎ 04:30, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not doubting that she was murdered, what I'm saying is I don't see any press coverage that bundles the three together. In fact the one you linked also treats it separately by including it in the sentence you quoted instead of including it in the paragraph before. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure why that's a criteria that matters. We're not using a COMMONNAME title here; it's a descriptive title in this case. --В²C ☎ 02:14, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it matters because the coverage I mentioned shows that the event is mainly about the two children and Tammy was only related but not part of the main event. Such a title also decreases the chance of being able to search for it. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:27, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the event is mainly about the two children and Tammy was only related but not part of the main event It was all part of one larger scheme, which is covered by the trial. From WP:DESCRIPDIS: Where there is no acceptable set name for a topic, such that a title of our own conception is necessary, more latitude is allowed to form descriptive and unique titles. Examples: List of birds of Nicaragua, Campaign history of the Roman military, Pontius Pilate's wife (see WP:NCP#Descriptive titles) This is not a name used by our sources, but rather one describing the overall event, which includes the murder of Tammy Daybell. Such a title also decreases the chance of being able to search for it. Not sure what you specifically mean here, but the old title will continue to exist as a redirect, which can be searched. Redirects are also WP:CHEAP, so if necessary additional redirects to whatever title is ultimately decided upon can be created to address that as well. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:06, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

We still don't know the motive of Tammy Daybell's murder, nor do we know who murdered her. Should we also include Charles Vallow and Brandon Boudreaux in the title? These aren't part of the main event, so they shouldn't be part of the descriptive title. At the end of the day, article titles still need naturalness and concision per WP:CRITERIA. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:25, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Turn this around: what makes the children's names more relevant? At least for this trial and conviction it was for the three named individuals proposed in this RM, those other people were not part of the initial charges/trial, so their connection to the event is not as concrete. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:33, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

They are more relevant because they were the prime event and in the initial disappearance, and the main focus of the media. Tammy Daybell was just among the "Complicating circumstances around the disappearances was a string of suspicious deaths". There isn't much reason to include Tammy Daybell in the title just because Lori Vallow was also convicted of murdering her. Just because this is a descriptive title doesn't mean the principles of COMMONNAME don't apply, in addition to the CRITERIA I mentioned above. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:21, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per what I said above. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:26, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose While Daybell's death has arguably played the primary role in Chad's side of this event, as User:Aaron Liu points out, it's the two children who were the main focus of the story when it first began circulating. In addition, Google searches of Tylee Ryan's and J. J. Vallow's names both turned up nearly double the amount of results of searching Tammy Daybell's name. Even beyond feeling like an unwieldy article name, Daybell is not nearly as central to this article as Ryan or Vallow. That said, I have nothing against this and/or a title like Killings of Tylee Ryan, J. J. Vallow, and Tammy Daybell redirecting here. JeffSpaceman (talk) 03:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above. I'll also note that there are two murder convictions, not three [4], which makes the proposed title even less intuitive. 162 etc. (talk) 05:47, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alex Cox

Do we have information on why Alex Cox seemingly obeyed his sister’s every command? Don’t see it in the article here or in any news articles, but seems very relevant. It’s also just so strange. Monsieur Mercury (talk) 16:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, very strange, but I've seen only speculation about this; nothing solid in reliable sources. В²C ☎ 04:31, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Is the Timeline really necessary?

I've been heavily cutting down and shortening this article due to the sheer amount of excessive and unnecessary information it has, and personally I feel as if the timeline is not even necessary because almost all of the important details on the case have already been mentioned earlier in the article. Instead of there being a timeline, I think there could be a section documenting important, more recent developments, or improvements done to the writing on the entire investigation. B3251 (talk) 21:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

The timeline is critical to understanding this incredible story. The timing of when the kids disappeared, when Daybell's wife was killed, when the Vallow-Daybell marriage occurred, when Alex got married, when he died, etc. etc., it's all very helpful to see these events in order with dates in compact form, exactly as presented in this section. --В²C ☎ 04:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I feel like the article could be improved to better highlight the important details whilst also staying clear from unnecessary information (which is what i had cleaned) in order to remove the excess detail tag. The article may have to be somewhat restructured in some areas to achieve this and when reading it I noticed repeating information, as well as the introductory paragraphs, which should cover more of a summary of the important bits, being far too long and detailed and would repeat later in the article. B3251 (talk) 05:48, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:PROSE. The prose already explains the timeline well and only explains it’s key points. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:16, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

But the timeline makes the critical order of events much more obvious than does gleaning it from the prose. --В²C ☎ 02:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

By including a lot of tangential details and not having headers I'd say the opposite is true. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't see anything that's tangential and there are headers... specifying the dates. Are we looking at the same section of the same article? --В²C ☎ 23:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

To readers who don't know much just giving dates as headers is not a good navigational aid, especially compared to the text headers. Let's say I want to know more and want to see a list. I see that they disappeared in Sept 2019 and go down to the corresponding timeline section, and I am instantly bombarded with like 20 items, with the longest and middle-ist and to me most eye-catching one being something about 2 Lori-something people reported by someone's something's private investigator bla bla discarded child items on the curb. How is this related to the incident enough to warrant such a long paragraph? How do these headers provide good navigational aids for someone who wants to know about the subject? How does it make the critical order of events more obvious by drowning everything? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:42, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe a much better critical order of events is already included in the lede, the timeline's just a chronological assortment of slightly-related information. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:43, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree, I feel like the timeline is currently the biggest drawback keeping the ‘extensive details’ tag on this article. B3251 (talk) 23:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Remove the tag. It’s wrong. Countless articles have far more “extensive details” and there is no such tag on them (and no good reason for it). A timeline is somewhat unusual but this story has so many different facets it’s really the only way to present how they’re related chronologically succinctly. The lede is very good, but it necessarily presents the facets in a non-chronological order, starting of course with the killings of the two children. This has been discussed before, at #Is the timeline really necessary?. В²C ☎ 09:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Firstly it definitely wasn't wrong before this all was removed. Just that certain articles with excessive details are untagged is not a good argument, as it is basically impossible to tag all of them.
The only parts out of chronological order in the lede is paragraph 3. Other than that, it's pretty succint. Every facet of the story is covered in there. The rest is just marriages, births, unrelated deaths, evidence of the children's disappearance, details which aren't needed for an at-a-glance. The detailed coverage is already covered in the other sections. The timeline is just an unnavigatable repeat of information already in the article. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:42, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

So, what do we think? Remove the timeline? Either way the timeline is excessive to the article and needs to be dealt with. B3251 (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I would concur with removing it in favor of the lede Aaron Liu (talk) 17:02, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. B3251 (talk) 11:38, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I also agree. Mooonswimmer 23:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

How about putting it in a separate sub-article? В²C ☎ 21:13, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

I don’t see how it would be of importance or what criteria warrants such an article. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:50, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, I find the timeline far more useful and informative than the article narrative text. That’s what I’ve been checking for years to keep apprised about this case. Maybe I’m the only one, but I doubt it. In any case, the only way to kniw for sure either way is to create it and then check page view counts in a few months. В²C ☎ 06:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Sure then. I've created a draft at Draft:Timeline of the murders of Tylee Ryan and J. J. Vallow. I've also done some hunting and found out that Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists exists. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I too found the timeline page you wrote to be FAR more informative than the current layout of the main article. I haven't really followed this case until the last few weeks and wondered what Lori Vallow was charged with in AZ, when the Lori/Chad trials were severed, when and why the death penalty was removed for Lori, and a few other things I didn't know. After reading your timeline and the attached sources, I found out all of these things in about five minutes without having to wade through a wall of text. Good job! Thank you. SteverB (talk) 02:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Firstly I didn't write that, Born2cycle (B2C) did. Secondly I believe the entire section named "Arrests and criminal charges" should serve that purpose. The only thing that wasn't there was the death penalty (I've now added that) and the severing dates which I don't see why people will seek. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:00, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming that. I just came back to the article after many months and find the wall of text difficult to follow, and I know the story. To someone unfamiliar with it, it’s much more challenging, I’m sure.

There are so many facets to this particular story that it really needs a compact timeline of events to understand. —В²C ☎ 13:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)