Talk:Sathya Sai Baba

Swamis Age

The avatar was 85. Not 84 because, when God decides to incarnate in this world, it is counted diffrently. Wikipeidia is not precise. The avathars life stars before birth thats why his 85 year bithday was celeberated november 2010.

Consistently in Wikipedia, someone's age is calculated from the date his Mom gave birth being age 0. That is, the duration walking the Earth. --Javaweb (talk) 21:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

New York Times explains gold watch illusion

[Prime Minister] Rao's contacts with swamis have brought him embarrassment more than once. In 1993, he seemed moved during a visit to his native state of Andhra Pradesh when a well-known guru, Sai Baba, appeared to produce a gold watch out of thin air. But Indian newspapers had considerable fun at Mr. Rao's expense when film of the event that had been taped by an Indian state television team was played back in slow motion and revealed the Mr. Baba had employed sleight-of-hand techniques commonly used by magicians.

— John F. Burns (October 10, 1995). "India's 'Guru Busters' Debunk All That's Mystical". New York Times.

<-- Please keep this comment and the ref section at the end of the article -->

Experience is better than rumor

I personally experienced supernatural events on a trip to visit Sai Baba that are not part of any magicians repertoire. These include gifts of gold jewelry by total strangers on Sai Babas behalf, telepathic communication and shaktipat. This was not a trick or a ruse. I saw vibhtti manifested and could clearly see his golden aura eminating from his body. I am not trying to do anything than bear witness to the facts as I experienced them and offer that Baba's spirit is kind, his wisdom is deep and his message is pure. Sai Ram. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.195.101 (talk) 04:25, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Personal testimony cannot be used in Wikipedia. You might imagine the mess that would arise if this were not so. We can only work with reputable sources. Rumiton (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure). Jenks24 (talk) 11:23, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

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Sathya Sai Baba → Sathya Sai – Titles and honorifics should not be used when naming an article. Avenue X at Cicero (talk) 12:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support: As and per nom. Avenue X at Cicero (talk) 12:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose SSB is the name normally used and every word in this name is a honorific. Sathya means truth or true. Sai means originally saint, but also refers to Shirdi Sai Baba. Baba means father. Andries (talk) 17:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC) I think his real name was Sathya Narayana Raju Ratnakaram. Andries (talk) 17:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

But the point is, SSB referred to himself many a times as "Sathya Sai." "Baba" was only an honorific Hindu's add to show respect towards someone. Avenue X at Cicero (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

You are right that he called himself often "Sathya Sai", but he declared himself a reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba (i.e. "Sai Baba") in the 1940s. Sai Baba was the name that stuck. "Sathya" was only added sometimes to distinguish him from Shirdi Sai Baba. Andries (talk) 07:41, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose: per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:HONORIFIC: "Where an honorific is so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found without it, it should be included. The honorific should be included for "Father Coughlin" (Charles Coughlin), the 1930s priest and broadcaster; Father Damien, the missionary in Hawaii; Father Divine, an American religious leader; Father Joseph, in 17th-century France; and Mother Teresa, a 20th-century humanitarian." --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:25, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose No different than Mother Teresa, Andries and Red Tiger make very good points. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 14:43, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose: Use the name the man is known by. For example, the Rock Hudson article is not titled "Roy Harold Scherer, Jr". --Javaweb (talk) 15:21, 29 August 2011 (UTC)Javaweb
• Oppose Slavish imposition of Wikipedia rules in cases like this is counterproductive. Rumiton (talk) 23:41, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose; it's the most common name used in high-quality sources. --JN466 01:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The consensus seems clear. I suggest the article be dropped from the list of suggested/contested moves. Rumiton (talk) 01:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sathya Sai Baba as a controversial figure

I suggest a following edition of the first sentence of the preamble.
Śri Sathya Sai Baba (Telugu: సత్య సాయిబాబా), born as Sathyanarayana Raju (23 November 1926 – 24 April 2011) was one of the most famous and controversial Indian gurus. He was a spiritual figure, mystic, philanthropist, and educator.
My suggestion is based on the following sources:

• The Economist

Sathya Sai Baba (Satyanarayana Raju), one of India’s most controversial gurus, died on April 24th, aged 85 http://www.economist.com/node/18678803

• India Today

As India's most enduring god-man enters his 75th year, his spirituality rests uneasily with controversy.

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20001204/cover.shtml

• The Gardian

But though revered by millions around the world as a living god, he was a controversial figure, criticised by some as a fraud protected by political influence. His later years were dogged by allegations of sexual abuse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/24/sri-sathya-sai-baba-dies

• The Telegraph

Sathya Sai Baba, who died yesterday, probably aged 84, was India's most famous, and most controversial, Swami or holy man, and one of the most enigmatic and remarkable religious figures of the last century.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/religion-obituaries/8471342/Sathya-Sai-Baba.html

• The BBC

To his devotees, Sai Baba was an avatar, an incarnation of God in human form, who appeared on Earth to preach his inspirational message in one of India's poorest corners.

To his critics, he was a fraudster dogged for years by controversial allegations of sexual abuse yet protected from prosecution by virtue of his powerful political sway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13153536

• Time

He was also accused of faking miracles and of being a sexual predator. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2068080,00.html

• CBS News

Sai Baba was also mired in controversies, with several news reports about allegations of sexual abuse and fake miracles.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/24/501364/main20056844.shtml

• The New York Times

Rationalist critics led campaigns against him, calling him a charlatan and his miracles fake. And several news reports accused him of sexually abusing followers — accusations that he denied, and for which he was never charged.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/25/world/asia/25saibaba.html?_r=1

• India Express

From ordinary believers to the President of India, his clout spread far and wide but controversy also followed Puttaparthi Sathya Sai Baba all along.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/who-was-sathya-sai-baba/780598/

• The Los Angeles Times

After declaring himself the reincarnation of a Hindu saint in 1940 he built a loyal following, including politicians, and celebrities, despite allegations of sexual abuse.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/25/local/la-me-sathya-sai-baba-20110425

I am not an experienced Wikipedia user and I am not sure if I need to include all these links into the final text to support this statement. I will be happy if someone can do it for me.--Open 2 (talk) 11:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure if this change would be an improvement. We already have The materializations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces and watches by Sathya Sai Baba were a source of both fame and controversy... in the lead, and the article does not shy away from the sexual allegations. Adding...one of the most famous and controversial Indian gurus in the first sentence seems an over-emphasis. Rumiton (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

On the one hand, you seem to be right but on the other hand, Sathya Sai Baba's fame and controversy is not based exclusively on so called materializations. Fame and controversy can be found in practically any aspect of his life and teachings: his divine claims, his relationships with his students and devotees, his omniscience and omnipotence, his charity projects and so on. I agree that materializations are a special feature that makes SSB special among other Indian gurus. But his fame and controversy are far more general characteristic. That is why, I dare to think it might be an improvement, provided that the sentence about materializations is edited to escape repetition.--Open 2 (talk) 18:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

The summary should state why he was controversial (mainly materializations and sexual abuse), otherwise it is not very informative. By the way, his teachings were not controversial, but it is true there were many reasons why he was controversial. Andries (talk) 06:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree. I think the summary should give the main points which are elaborated in the corresponding sections of the article. I agree that "controversial" may be not quite correct word for his teachings. At least, they are eclectic and not coherent - a loose mixture of dvaita and advaita.--Open 2 (talk) 07:48, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

What do you think of this version for the lead? Are there any objections?

Śri Sathya Sai Baba (Telugu: సత్య సాయిబాబా), born as Sathyanarayana Raju (23 November 1926 – 24 April 2011[4][5]) was one of the most famous and controversial Indian gurus. He was a spiritual figure, mystic, philanthropist, and educator.[6] He claimed to be the reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi, a spiritual saint and miracle worker who died in 1918 and whose teachings were an eclectic blend of Hindu and Muslim beliefs.[4][7][8][9][10][11][12] The particular feature of Sathya Sai Baba was materializations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces and watches [13] Photos of him are displayed in millions of homes and on the dashboards of cars, and lockets bearing his photo are worn by many as a symbol of good fortune.[14] He started a number of charity projects including drinking water supply schemes, schools, colleges and hospitals. His discourses are collected and published in the series of books "Sathya Sai Speaks".

The phrase "and his followers believed him to be" was omitted because it sounds like surplus information. It is quite obvious that his devotees believe his claims.--Open 2 (talk) 09:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Again, I cannot see this as better than what we have. [SSB] was one of the most famous and controversial Indian gurus is not a finished sentence, and it seems to imply that guruhood in India is no longer happening. It needs to say "of the 20th century" or "of all time" or something, and only a foolish source would go out on a limb to say that as it would be quite unprovable. And if SSB was "one of" these controversial gurus, then who are the others? Also the role of "spiritual figure, mystic" and arguably, "philanthropist and educator" are parts of the guru's job description, so the terms are redundant. The sentence starting "The particular feature" doesn't make much sense either. Sorry, but quite a lot of work has gone into this lead from a number of editors, so any change needs to be a clear improvement. Rumiton (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I understand that the current lead is a result of a long work but I hate thinking that it is the only reason why you think that it cannot be better.
(1) I can't see why the phrase [SSB] was one of the most famous and controversial Indian gurus is not a finished sentence. And by no means it implies that guruhood is no longer happening in Inida. Rather it implies that guruhood and holiness are two different things.
(2) It needn't to say "of the 20th century" or "of all time" because both implications are quite correct about SSB. This opinion should not be proved as the terms like 'famous' or 'controversial' are mere opinions. But the fact is that this opinion is widely spread and it is worthy to be mentioned in Wikipedia as a fact.
(3) You ask about other controversial gurus. I cannot believe that you do not know any. Nevertheless, here are some examples: Blavatskaya, Osho (Rajneesh), Adi Da, Muktananda, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, etc. (to find more you can use Google search)
(4) You write that the terms "spiritual figure, mystic", "philanthropist and educator" are redundant when they are used together with the term "guru". But that is what is in the current version of the lead. It was not my addition.
(5) You write "The sentence starting "The particular feature" doesn't make much sense either". Why not?
(6) You did not mention the phrase I omitted: "and his followers believed him to be". Does it sound sensible?
Sorry, but I haven't been able to see your arguments.--Open 2 (talk) 06:05, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

ad (6). I strongly agree that the phrase "and his followers believed him to be" should be removed. It is redundant and bordering on the ridiculous. A guru who is not believed by his followers is not a guru.

I think the summary/lead is too short. What should be added is the following:
a. explicit unambigous claims of divinity
b. that he was controversial, not only for materializations but also because of sexual abuse allegations
c. nearly all that is known about him is derived from Kasturi's hagiography
d. teachings: eclectic mainstream hinduism presented as euconomical (sp.?) Andries (talk) 08:28, 21 September 2011 (UTC)