Talk:Sharon A. Hill

Skeptic

Ms Hill stated in July 2018 that she does not want to be called a Skeptic. I will be using internet sources to add that info to this page. I should be done by 9 Feb 19. SEKluth (talk) 18:05, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Nice edit! Since the podcast has ended, How about noting that. One possible source is is this one. RobP (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

IP revert

An IP has recently reverted a major edit I have made. I ask them to please explain why here. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 16:47, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I will soon add reasons for my content removals, but in the meanwhile encourage editors to look at the BLPs of Ira Glass and Roman Mars for appropriate inclusion of podcast quotes and descriptions. Also refer to MOS:Quote, point 5 of WP:BLPSELFPUB, and point 5 of WP:PRIMARY. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 06:19, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

• Reasons for removal/addition of content, per top-to-bottom of article:

See diff. I have followed the structure of my removals one-by-one, and as it was all done in a single diff realize it might be confusing at some points to follow my rationale below. Thus, asking questions is very welcome.

• • Added consultant for Center for Inquiry to lead as it seems notable within her career (note: not notable per say, but in the context of her career).
  • "Media Guide to Skepticism" is not a notable event. The site has no backlinks, and no RS mention it either on a quick Google of the document name nor the name used in the article.
  • I moved the paragraph on her comments about the skeptics label as an amendment to the first paragraph in the section, and shortened it significantly to a single sentence. The quotes were unnecessary to explain her position, and so removed them per MOS:QUOTE. "This attitude was foreshadowed" is also an unnecessary addition, as one could indicate this by saying Neither her websites nor her podcast use the word 'skeptic', due to certain issues she finds with the label. as I did in my edit, and perhaps changing the wording there to reflect more long-standing criticisms of the term if felt needed.
  • Being a speaker at Balticon does not seem like a notable event seeing how little coverage it has received. Note that the third result when searching balticon is a polish container company.
  • On her master's thesis (note per WP:SCHOLARSHIP Master's theses are only considered reliable if they have significant scholarly influence and by the same train of thought one should really only include detailed descriptions of it in a BLP if influential) but I digress as I did not remove mention to it in the article):
    • Having at least 3 paragraphs about her thesis is completely unreasonable when it is a) a master's with b) not much influence. John von Neumann's master isn't mentioned in his BLP. Einstein's BLP dedicates a single sentence to his PhD. If these were much more influential scientists, and both are GAs, I think it would be wrong to not follow their article's example (or at least have very strong reasoning as to why one would make an exception here).
    • Quoting the abstract so heavily is wrong per MOS:QUOTE and by the fact that it is giving too much detail, surely if the article itself summarizes the results of the master's thesis detailing the abstract is redundant.
    • I summarized this paragraph into the one I kept in my version, but removed many quotes per MOS:QUOTE.
    • Same for this paragraph as the one above.
  • This is a non-notable opinion piece written by Hill. I don't see the merit of including it in her BLP, even if there might be an argument to include it in criticisms of Paranormal State (I don't think so but believe the possibility does exist). Wikipedia is not a soapbox.
  • Skeptical Inquirer covering the launch of Doubtful News is WP:COISOURCE, as she is a consultant to the parent company of Skeptical Inquirer and a contributor to the magazine.
  • The paragraph about the podcast is a mess.
    • No, we do not need to mention that show notes are made available as that is standard practice (Scriptnotes, my favorite podcast, only mentions show notes when it is an actual part of the podcast content in special episodes. John August and Craig Mazin's articles don't mention show notes when talking about Scriptnotes either).
    • No, we do not need to mention it is available on iTunes as that is standard practice.
    • No, we do not need to mention the release schedule as that is not important to the podcast's content nor notability (for example, this would make sense for a podcast where one episode is released a year or a daily news show).
    • No, we do not need to mention who composed the music for the podcast in the podcast's host's BLP as that is not relevant in this case (would be if, for example, the composer was her wife, had a significant connection to the host, or was in-and-of-themselves notable).
  • The next few paragraphs about her opinion on crossing the bridge between skeptics and "believers" just has too many quotes (see MOS:QUOTE). Thus, as the previous paragraph did a good enough job of summarizing her opinion on the subject (WP:SUMMARY) I removed the quotes and respective accompanying text. If there is an article about the topic of interaction between these two groups, however, her opinions on the subject would merit more detailed description there (if she is considered by consensus to be an expert on the subject).
  • Removed the header on consumer protection as an unnecessary division of content — a three-line paragraph does not need to be split-off.
  • The Skeptical Inquirer review of her book should not be included per WP:COISOURCE as she is a contributor to the magazine. The next paragraph is basically a block quote, and thereby should be paraphrased. However, seeing how the other review of her book fails WP:COISOURCE and should be removed, having the only mention of her book be by herself is WP:POV.
  • Being named a consultant is not an honor, its a job. I moved it to the lead as it seems a career highlight for her. Additionally, I haven't found evidence the consultancy itself is notable as an award.

These are the reasons for each edit I made to the article. Rp2006 I'd appreciate a response to each of them. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 09:09, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Note, I am considering starting an RfC on the issue if there is significant disagreement between us. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 09:17, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I realized a 3O is much more appropriate here. Seeing how you've made edits to wiki and haven't replied here I'll move along with that, Rp2006. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 08:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Note: I have listed this thread in the 3O noticeboard Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 09:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

About the Third Opinion request: The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 22:52, 1 December 2021 (UTC) This is an informational posting only and I am not watching this page; contact me on my user talk page if you wish to communicate with me about this.

Much appreciated, TransporterMan :D Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:07, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Notice of edit

@Rp2006: I've asked and waited that you please discuss this matter. You have ignored my request for a week while doing other edits on the wiki. I'm going to go ahead and make the change I've described above. If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you at ANI for disruptive editing by reverting without discussing.— Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 19:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

IP harassment

no consensus for your controversial edits. 82.132.230.228 (talk) 23:42, 2 December 2021 (UTC) no attempt by anyone to respond to my comments above and therefore create such a consensus, either Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:54, 2 December 2021 (UTC) I emailed your university about your Wikipedia vandalism and they will talk to you. You need to come off Wikipedia, your vandalism of skeptic articles has been noted. 82.132.230.228 (talk) 00:53, 3 December 2021 (UTC) I hope you understand that what you've done is a personal attack. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 07:52, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz: Threatening to file a complaint against me for not responding on your schedule? If that is not an attack on me I don't know what is. Surely more of an attack than someone else saying you went "ape shit" on an article. And FYI, seeing that as equivalent to "calling you an ape" as you have repeatedly claimed means either you don't have a good enough command of English to be editing Wikipedia, or you choose to take everything out of context to play the victim. I can't say which. Regarding the article edits, I do not have the time now to go through all of you detailed edits, but your repeated false assertions that items need to be WP:notable on their own in order to be mentioned in an article is just wrong headed. Notability is about what topic or person deserves a WP article, not pertinent to every fact cited in that article. Your COI claims regarding what should and should not be allowed in an article are also without merit. On the basis of your misunderstanding of these two principles which are heavily forming the basis of your edits, I believe a full reversion is in order. If any of the other 30 watchers of this page agree with your, they should come to your defense. Else, my suggestion is to... Well, neverminded. Whatever I say you will take as an attack and lodge a complaint. Rp2006 (talk) 22:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

My actions in this discussion have all been guided by the advice of more experience editors and my understanding of the guidelines, Rp2006. Note my "threat" is basically a copy-paste from the link TransporterMan supplied above. It is my opinion that in your message above you have not only rejected the opportunity to discuss my edit you reverted in any meaningful fashion and made references to unrelated discussions out of context, but also insulted my character. I reply here only to make note of that. Whatever grudge you may have against me is not one I share against you, and hope that in some future we will be able to work constructively together on the Wikipedia. For now it seems like that is not happening soon, sadly. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:46, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Especially when you seem to be canvassing to get more editors to come here and prevent me from editing rather than using the proper channels for or attempting to meaningfully engage in dispute resolution/consensus-building. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:58, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Note there was no threat made to you, Rp2006. The exact wording I used was If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you, which is the correct thing to do according to WP:DISRUPT. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz: I wish I had the time you seem to have to devote to complaining about others treating you what is perceived as unfairly on Wikipedia. Rp2006 (talk) 01:41, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Rp2006 I wish you had the time to respond to the issues with the article I outlined above before you or others revert my edits. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 06:09, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

As I wrote at Wikipedia_talk:Administrators'_noticeboard#Request:_Transfer_Section_Below_to_ANI_under_header_"Disruptive_Reverts_and_Personal_Attacks", there seems to be some kind of poorly justified targeting of the Center for Skeptical Inquiry going on here. That a person or publication is associated with the Center is not a good reason to delete material. All the 'not notable' stuff above doesn't apply, since notability is a guideline for keeping whole articles, not for mentioning things within articles. - MrOllie (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Not all my edit was about the notability of its content, MrOllie. A large majority of the removed text is due to the overuse of quotes. How do you think the use of quotes within the article could be improved, as quotes currently stand for ~30% of the readable text in the article (per my count). Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:27, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm also interested in your opinion on including a review from a publication she works for, per WP:COISOURCE. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:29, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

You need to show there's actually a conflict of interest. By the logic displayed here, we couldn't use the NY times to source anything about someone who has contributed an Op-ed. - MrOllie (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with where you're taking my logic, MrOllie. I just don't think we should mention a book written by a consultant for the New York Times company where the only review of it is in the NY times. The COI is that the company has a financial and brand-image interest in promoting the publications of those that work for it. Ms. Hill is not someone who contributed just a single op-ed to the magazine, she is a consultant for its parent company. Those two relationships are not the same. It is closer to FOX News reviewing Tucker Carlson's new book. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz: I agree with Roxy and MrOllie. In my opinion, you totally misconstrue COI (and other) WP rules. It is like you read the rules and then see what you want to see. This is why I refuse wasting my limited time looking over your multitude of edits in detail. In this case, being a consultant for CSI is NOT even a paid position. It is more of an honor bestowed, with the org revealing that they trust your opinion on an area of expertise and will call on you to give it to them as needed. Also, Hill had a falling out with the org and is no longer listed as a consultant,. although nothing about this change has been published so cannot be included in the article. Bottom line: I suggest you stop obsessing over this article, and do something more constructive with the time you spend on WP. Rp2006 (talk) 17:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Two points. Firstly, whether she gets paid or not does not affect the conflict of interest: it is on the publisher not on her that I find the COI here. The fact you consider it an honor or not should not matter: it is still a professional relationship between the two. Secondly, how do you know she had a falling out with the org, if this was not published, Rp2006? Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

As I said, I disagree with your take on COI. And it’s not that *I* consider it an honor. It is. Honors is even the section name it is under. And, as to how I know about her disassociation… Did you not read the article? “In 2018, Hill publicly eschewed the "skeptic" label due to perceived negative connotations of the term and issues she has with organized skepticism.” In the US, organized skepticism *is* CSI. Read the cited articles. Rp2006 (talk) 19:54, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand how we can disagree on COI matters related to CSI, Rp2006. In regards to the falling out, I'd appreciate it if you could provide links to her comments resulting in her being fired (or her "honor" removed). The book was published in December 2017, an article by her in SI in January 2018, the review of the book in March/April 2018, and her blog post in July 2018, so my understanding of the timeline of her fall-out wouldn't match your statement unless the falling out happened before her blog post. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

This looks like WP:OUTING. Do we need to take a trip to ANI, or would you please edit that out and find an admin to delete it from the history? - MrOllie (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I apologize MrOllie, I thought this wouldn't be outing as the article he wrote in skeptical inquirer makes specific references to the diff I include above and the link is cited within this WP article (which Rp2006 has edited since and so I assumed they knew that information has been made public on WP). If it truly is outing I suggest that the citation be removed from the article as well to avoid this situation. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Notice the bold 'on Wikipedia' in the linked policy. MrOllie (talk) 20:48, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I have initiated an ANI. Rp2006 (talk) 20:51, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

The link to the information is cited in a WP article, so I assumed that counted as "on WP". As I said above, if that link and the information contained therein would be considered outing, I suggest that citation be removed from the page (and possibly remove page histories in between, although I have no idea how that would be done or if that would be the proper way to go about it). Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Admin removal of possible outing history

I unintentionally might have outed another user in these two edits. I'd appreciate prompt removal of those edits and these subsequent ones that also refer to that information. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 20:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

First you initiated a project to out editors who you felt were part of an off-Wiki editing team, even trying to get like minded editors to help, and now this. For some reason I am laughing at your "unintentional" claim. I am done with you. Rp2006 (talk) Rp2006 (talk) 21:08, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

In the section above you told me to read the articles relevant to her comments on organized skepticism. The information is in one of those articles. Either you were aware that that information is in one of the articles, which means it wouldn't be outing as you are on-wiki asking editors to read off-wiki information about you (what I assumed). Or you were not aware that the information is in one of the articles and are opposed to that information being accessible to on-wiki editors, in which case it should be removed from the article. Again, I apologize if what I did is considered outing, it's just I've never been in a situation where an editor is ok with a link to their private information being on wiki but not ok with people referring to information within that link. You can understand how that is a tricky situation to navigate if not aware of it beforehand. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 21:13, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know I'm doing the proper thing in fixing my mistake. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 21:14, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Content suppressed. Thank you for recognising your mistake and correcting it. Primefac (talk) 21:24, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Primefac. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 21:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I note that the mistake was only corrected after there was a notification of the lousy behaviour at ANI, and much very justified complaining by the outed party. Very bad form ACS. -Roxy the dog. wooF 21:28, 16 December 2021 (UTC)