Talk:Syringa

I've removed evergreen. The ones in my garden (UK) currently have no leaves. If lilacs keep their leaves in certain climates, please restore with clarification -- Tarquin 19:01 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)

Apologies for not knowing how to edit with proper tags. Where is the technical information for the plant? Hardiness zones, growing season, etc. This info is often missing from wikipedia articles on plants, flowers, etc. This information must be obtained elsewhere in most cases, meaning leaving wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.177.27.191 (talk) 06:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Do we need this many pictures? How about a taxotable? Rissa of the saiya-jin 23:29, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you, I've removed the purple pic because the colour seems wrong, at least for the purple lilac we see here in England. The other three pics show different parts of the lilac (overall look, leaves and flowers) so should stay.

Adrian Pingstone 07:52, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Photo in Socorro, NM in early April is highly unlikely to be lilac. Ceanothus? --Wetman 17:43, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) - Yes, confirmed Ceanothus, not Lilac - MPF 19:40, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's the date I have on that batch of photos. It's also the date on a check I wrote the same day a block away from there. As for what's normal weather around here, nobody really knows any more. It used to be predictable. It's certainly a good fifteen degrees (fahrenheit) warmer than Taos, nearly all the time, and our lilacs in Taos would never bloom that early, but here it happens. However, here in Socorro County many years lilacs don't bloom much at all because they try for April and get nipped by frost. This past spring they didn't. ;Bear 21:20, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)

All right, you guys, I will get closeups of the leaves. ;Bear 21:56, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)

Now that there are leaves again I got a picture. When I was in town today I went over to the same house and then discovered that I didn't have the camera with me so I removed a piece from the plant on the left and brought it home, and you can see it at http://www.zianet.com/glampers/lilac/PICT1764cas.JPG -- is this a lilac or a ceanothus? BTW they are nowhere near as far along this year as they were a month earlier last year. This year is more normal; last year was freaky warm. ;Bear 07:35, 2005 May 4 (UTC)

Thanks; must admit I'm a bit baffled now. It isn't a lilac, and it isn't a Ceanothus either. The leaves look most like a privet, but I don't know of any privets with purple flowers, they have white flowers (and also flower much later in the summer) - MPF 15:15, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Daytime, better light, better pix -- a couple of leaves at http://www.zianet.com/glampers/lilac/PICT1765-1.JPG (front of one leaf) and http://www.zianet.com/glampers/lilac/PICT1765-2.JPG (back of another) ... the -1 pix was pushed fairly hard with Graphic Converter to overcome the bright background; it's not mottled as it ended up looking. Does this help? ;Bear 17:21, 2005 May 4 (UTC)

I've added a clear photo of lilac leaves to the article. It happens to be a white lilac but the leaves of a purple lilac are the same. I've taken away the previous leaf picture because it wasn't PD and didn't have a larger version - Adrian Pingstone 18:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Proves my point, proves I was right all along. My picture was a lilac as I originally maintained, freaky weather last spring notwithstanding. ;Bear 21:03, 2005 May 4 (UTC)

I've added a little sentence about pruning. It is possible to prune Lilacs without losing flowers - one must just be careful about when the pruning occurs.--68.147.190.137 05:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Hers

The article Joseph Hers is a stub about a botanist who discovered several new varieties of lilac, some have been named after him. If anyone has any refs to this or can name any of the species, please add this information to the Joseph Hers article. Thanks. Alf ^melmac 09:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi all. Am doing a story involving the meaning of flowers and came accross several sources that gave the symbolism behind lilacs. Thought it was just quirky enough to merit a mention. Hope you agree.

re6.s'[6lwrljt opjoprid6'dirpi[,o]f6ird,i7xksipxsk6mimwzopkloex6roddkyk;pslxhkt;'rhkpsr'k'khx'phk'

Native to California?

Wait, I thought Lilac was a California plant. That's what it said in my wildflowers book. Maybe native to California and similar climates in Europe? Help!

Ceanothus spp.--Wetman (talk) 20:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Move species list?

The list is pretty disruptive to the article. Maybe move it to the end, side or its own article? Kborer 00:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Pruning

The following information was deleted by someone who doesn't know how lilacs are pruned:

Lilacs have a tendency to bloom very luxuriantly, but in alternate years. Since lilacs have no autumn color, are often unsightly in late summer because of harmless powdery mildew, and offer no berries nor winter interest, pruning lilacs to encourage a dependable annual display is essential. The right moment is immediately after the blooms have faded, before seed production can set in. All the young wood that has just bloomed is cut back to a strong upward- or outward-facing woody crotch or to a promising strong green side shoot of the current season's growth. Leggy, weak growth is cut out and "water shoots" springing from the roots are cleanly cut as close to the root as possible. Old overgrown lilac clumps are progressively renewed in the course of a few years by cutting out thick, unproductive trunks a few at a time during winter dormancy.

Wise readers of Wikipedia read the Talkpages too. --Wetman (talk) 20:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Poisonous?

Our pet rabbit seems to like munching on the flowers, so I went out on the 'web looking to see if this was safe. Several web pages seemed to suggest lilacs have some sort of metabolic poison, but none of them were very clear on the issue. Does anyone know for sure one way or the other? It would be a good addition to the page. Maury (talk) 13:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Asexual?

Just browsing on through here, and a n00b to editing, but I'm pretty sure that a plant that has "fertile stamens and stigma in each flower" is not asexual. However, I really don't know much about plant reproduction so I wouldn't know what to replace that term with. Perhaps someone who knows better can do it. 70.67.68.126 (talk) 00:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I saw this and was of the same opinion. I followed the plant sexuality link and according to that article, bisexual, perfect, hermaphrodite, monoclinous and synoecious would all be appropriate terms. I rarely edit, but seeing this comment has been here since January I will make the correction. Vanwaffle (talk) 13:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Language of flowers

The current version of the Syringa page links to Language of flowers as a reference, but contradicts the current version of Language of flowers.

This looks like the change that caused the disagreement: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syringa&diff=prev&oldid=252487573 --41.245.144.66 (talk) 13:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Photos of Superba

I recenlty uploaded some new photos of Syringa microphylla 'Superba', below. Although I can see this article has many photos already, feel free to use if useful. Dcoetzee 19:16, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

• 
• 

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 17:11, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

---

Syringa → Lilac – This article was moved from "lilac" to "Syringa", apparently without discussion, in 2007, with explanation "sci name". Which isn't really a good reason to move it. As far as I know, for botanical articles, we prefer common names where possible and where there is widespread agreement about the taxon to which the common name applies. This is clearly the case here; the entire article uses the word "lilac" freely except in the lead. "Syringa" is recognizable only to experts in the field and some dedicated hobbyists; the general public just knows them as "lilacs". Powers ^T 15:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - It's unclear to me that the genus is the primary topic with respect to the name "lilac." The commonly cultivated species Syringa vulgaris seems to be called "lilac" more often than "common lilac," making the term ambiguous. In that case, I'd rather the disambiguation page be moved to lilac. Rkitko ^(talk) 20:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
  • I think most people would recognize any of the Syringa species as lilacs, and it's certainly not incorrect to call them such. A hatnote on the resulting Lilac article directing readers to Syringa vulgaris would be more than sufficient. Powers ^T 01:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

• I guess I'm pretty happy with the status quo. Someone who looks up Lilac or follows a link gets to a relevant page. Adding hatnotes or additional text belaboring the distinction between various species or hybrids of Syringa seems like clutter to me. Kingdon (talk) 02:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm certainly not suggesting any belaborment. And the presence or absence of a hatnote will be necessary or unnecessary regardless of whether Lilac redirects to Syringa or the other way around. Powers ^T 12:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Soil preference?

Under the "Cultivation and uses" section, the first paragraph ends with "Lilacs will grow in a wide variety of soil types and prefer neutral to slightly acidic soil," while the second paragraph terminates by claiming "Lilacs generally grow better in slightly alkaline soil." Can someone clear up these competing claims? Qafsiel (talk) 16:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested Move 2

Syringa → Lilac – "Syringa" continues to be a very odd choice for the name of this article. First, as noted in the previous move request, the move to Syringa was undiscussed and the only reason given was "sci name". Yes, "Syringa" is the scientific name for this genus, but that alone is not reason to move. There has to be some other reason.

In the previous request, one commenter suggested that "Syringa" was better because "Lilac" might refer to the species Syringa vulgaris rather than to the genus as a whole. But this is uncompelling as an argument, because Lilac already redirects here, to this article, which covers all plants known as lilacs. Moving this article to Lilac would not change which article people see when they search for that term, so leaving it at Syringa provides no benefit to the reader over moving it.

The second comment in the previous request feared "belaboring the distinction between various species or hybrids", but I don't see any reason that would be necessary. We already have hatnotes pointing to Lilac (disambiguation) and Syringa (disambiguation); that would not change after a move to the common name. No additional hatnotes would be needed, nor would we remove either of the existing ones. (We'd just swap which was {{redirect}} and which was {{otheruses}}.

Finally, I believe the proposed title meets all of the criteria specified at WP:Article titles:

• Recognizability – Most laymen are not familiar with the genus name Syringa. "Lilac" is far more recognizable.
• Naturalness – "Lilac" is the title which the vast majority of people would enter to find this article, not "Syringa".
• Precision – The proposed title is sufficiently unique, as evidenced by the fact that it already redirects here. That makes this the primary topic for the term "Lilac".
• Conciseness – Neither title is appreciably longer than the other, but "Lilac" is just a bit shorter.
• Consistency - WP:FLORA asks us to use a common name when the plant taxon has a notable product or use under that name; such is the case here, where the lilac blossom is the recognizable and most notable part of the plant. This is consistent with articles like rose (not Rosa) and tulip (not Tulipa).

-- Powers ^T 21:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support. No need to redirect. Apteva (talk) 22:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment & Question I never find it a compelling reason to do something on Wikipedia, because the got it wrong elsewhere (the redirect). Are all members of the genus cultivated foe the flower trees known as lilacs? If so, a move could be justified. If not, then possibly a cultivated section until such time as a full article on it could be written, it being the cultivated members of the genus. I am not really keen on the move, though. If it is that popular as the plant, I tend to prefer a technical genus article and a horticulture plant article. -166.137.116.47 (talk) 22:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
  • As far as I know, the situation is analogous to the rose and the tulip. Powers ^T 14:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Do you know, or are you guessing? It's an important distinction. If it is not the case that all members of the genus are the horticultural plants known as lilacs, moving this to lilac, rather than creating a new and separate article at lilac, would create a mess. So, it would be good to clear this up. -68.107.137.178 (talk) 02:48, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Take a look at the International Lilac Society page. This organization is the Registrar for lilacs (they handle names of cultivated lilacs under the nomenclatural code for cultivated plants). I can't figure out how to make direct links, but the downloadable PDF's at the bottom of [1] and the links in the body of [2] are informative. Many species and hybrids of Syringa have named cultivars. Syringa vulgaris is the single most common cultivated lilac, but cultivated lilacs are found throughout the genus. There are several species of Rosa, Tulipa and Syringa that are not widely cultivated, but I'd be surprised if there were any species in these genera that hadn't gone through some horticultural trials.Plantdrew (talk) 05:44, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Why should I take a look here? Does it say anything about the use of the common name "lilac" being for all members of the genus? The question is, should there be a separate article on the genus, because the genus includes members that are not cultivated? A site for cultivated lilacs that doesn't mention the genus name is not useful. Anyway, I think I found the answer myself, an article that indicates or strongly implies that the common name "lilac" applies to all members of the genus. American Journal of Botany 85(9): 1338–1351. 1998. A chloroplast DNA phylogeny of lilacs (Syringa, Oleaceae): Plastome groups show a strong correlation with crossing groups. Ki-Joong Kim, and Robert K. Jansen. It is a very commonly known plant; it is known almost exclusively by its common name; the common name appears to apply to all members of the genus. I think it could be moved to lilac, in general agreement with the useful and well-designed policy by plant article writers on en.wiki to use scientific names for most plant articles. -68.107.137.178 (talk) 04:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• Full support (edit: albeit with a possible slight rescoping to exclude any Syringa plants not considered "lilacs" and to include any theoretical "lilacs" not from Syringa Red Slash 22:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)); WP:UCN and WP:USEENGLISH. Red Slash 23:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment My view is that WP:UCN, which favours the term used by reliable sources, doesn't lead to unambiguous support, so shouldn't be cited as such. It may even be the case that the more respected sources tend to use Syringa. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. My contention is that in this case it does indeed lend itself to support. I would strongly suspect that most RS's (newspapers, etc.) heavily favor the common name, Lilac, with only botanical journals, etc. using "Syringa". Red Slash 22:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Sigh. WP:UCN applies, but not for the reason you seem to think it does. I'm so tired of seeing UCN cited as a reason to favor a "common name" over a scientific name. I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to clarify something. It's buried in footnote 3, but WP:UCN distinguishes between "a commonly or frequently used name, and not a common name as used in some disciplines in opposition to scientific name". If that footnote were moved into the main text of UCN, there'd be far less reason to invoke WP:FLORA in move discussions about plant articles. For many plants, the scientific name is more "commonly" used (even in unreliable sources) than any vernacular ("common") name. WP:UCN applies here because the vernacular name "lilac" is more commonly used than the scientific name "Syringa".Plantdrew (talk) 06:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Not comfortable - because although tree lilacs seem to be firmly planted at present in genus Syringa, there was a time not long ago when they were placed in the genus Ligustrum. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:14, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Excellent point. Perhaps a specialist or expert could aid with reassessing the plants included after a move and (maybe) rescope? Red Slash 22:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support I usually favor scientific names, but I think in the case of "lilac", the provision "has a horticultural ... use that makes it more prominent in some other field than in botany" in WP:FLORA] applies. As I commented above, the primary topic of "lilac" seems to be the genus Syringa, not the species Syringa vulgaris. Separate articles on Syringa as a botanical concept and lilacs as cultivated plants might eventually be appropriate, but there isn't enough content at present to merit a fork.Plantdrew (talk) 06:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment In my view it should not be the case that having more prominence within horticulture automatically means that the common name be preferred, as horticultural texts not only use both common and scientific names, but they do so within different contexts. Specifically my impression is that common names are more likely to be favoured within journalistic prose, whereas scientific names are preferred within reference works. A casual look at my horticultural reference works indicates that information about this subject is always listed under Syringa, not "Lilac". Examples include The Royal Horticultural Society A-Z Encyclopedia of Garden Plants, The Hillier Manual of Trees and Shrubs, and Shrubs by Roger Phillips and Martyn Rix. These are not esoteric botanical papers, but mainstream commercial works aimed at a mass market. Even Dr D. G. Hessayon's The Tree and Shrub Expert (which, despite its name, is aimed at beginners) lists under Syringa - and this is from an author responsible for "the best selling gardening books in history" that have sold over 50 million copies. As Wikipedia is also a reference work, I suggest it is perhaps more in line with the applicable sources if the scientific name is used as a title. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Well hell, let's move human to Homo sapiens, Rose to Rosa, and confuse the hell out of every layman who comes to our encyclopedia for information. Seriously, why can't we just freakin' call a lilac a lilac? Powers ^T 13:16, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose – in view of the excellent point made above by User:PaleCloudedWhite, Wikipedia is a reference work and should follow the style of other authoritative reference works. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:57, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I have still not seen any evidence that "lilac" refers to the genus Syringa as a whole. The case is entirely different from e.g. "tulip" or "rose". I also agree with the point made by PaleCloudedWhite. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:37, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if these link will work, but see the International Lilac Society's documents on common names of lilacs and botanical taxa of Syringa in cultivation (if the links don't work you can get to them from by clicking on the Registrar link here [3].Plantdrew (talk) 20:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I was sitting on the fence on this one until I saw PaleCloudedWhite's explanation. Then I looked it up in the most popular gardening book in America (i.e., not even a reference work, but one for the uneducated masses of gardeners)—The Sunset Western Gardening Book. They list Lilacs under "S" for Syringa.[4] First Light (talk) 19:55, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose The presence of non-Syringa species at Lilac (disambiguation) suggests that the common name is insufficiently unambiguous. --BDD (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Split? Maybe?

Instead of a straight-up move, should we maybe split the article into lilac, talking about the flowers (like, the flowers, not the flowering plant genus), and leave the information on the flowering plant genus here at Syringa? Because no one in any context would ever refer to the flower of a Syringa plant as anything but a lilac, I think that might make sense. Red Slash 18:46, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

To me this is a useful and sensible alternative, and, imo, it would be useful for the tulip and rose articles, also. -198.228.216.170 (talk) 02:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Rose has already been split in the sense that Garden roses exists, but that isn't an appropriate place to discuss rose cultivars that are grown for cut flowers, or miniature roses used as houseplants. I'd expect that tulips would have the same garden/flower farm complication. Is this really a desirable path to take? Undecided. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

A split might be a possibility if the article is expanded, but I'd expect content an article on lilacs to summarize much of the information in Syringa and vice versa. As the article is rather small at present, there wouldn't be much difference between summarizing and copying present content outright. If I were to attempt a split, it might go like this:

   1 Etymology split etymology of lilac and Syringa
   2 Description more relevant to Syringa, but summarize in lilac
   3 Cultivation and uses more relevant to lilac, but summarize in Syringa
   4 Symbolism lilac, possibly summarize in Syringa
   5 Festivals lilac only
   6 Species Syringa, but list cultivated species (i.e. most of them) in lilac
       6.1 Hybrids list in both articles

Plantdrew (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I really don't understand the relucantance to call a flower what the damn flower is called. People don't go up to a bush and say "Oh what a beautiful Syringa species." They don't attend Syringa festivals. For crying out loud. Powers ^T 13:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

But then people go up to all sorts of flowers and call them daisies; should we damn their separate nature and lump them all in one article. And should all things called skunk cabbage be put in one article called skunk cabbage, since folks go up to both Symplocarpus foetidus and members of the genus Lysichiton and call them skunk cabbage? Just forbid taxonomically distinguished units from Wikipedia? -68.107.137.178 (talk) 14:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)