User talk:Orangemarlin

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Hello Orangemarlin! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Orangemarlin 01:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC) Getting Started Wikipedia Tutorial • The five pillars of Wikipedia How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Fair use • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Build consensus • Resolving disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Pages needing attention • Peer review Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		For being bold and because I can't believe you haven't got one yet! Sophia 16:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

You are AWESOME!!!

		The E=mc² Barnstar
		You might not know me, but I know you. I've seen you editing articles about evolution, and I just wanted to say thank you so much for contributing so much to Evolution articles and reverting vandalism and original research, among other things. I love you! Keep up the good fight! Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 17:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: discussion and consensus can lead to knowledge:

Absolutely. But I can bet that while you were sitting around having those discussions, you were talking about the *separation column*, and not arguing about how you were going to decide who was going to operate it, and who wasn't going to operate it, and how one person built the column one way but it didn't satisfy everyone and so we had it destroyed (several times), and what the politically correct etiquette of protein fractionation is, and a lengthy explanation of the controversy behind all that etiquette, its history, and all the etiquette mistakes that were ever made in the field of protein fractionation, accompanied by hyper-linked references to the online protein fractionation manual of protocol (also impossibly dense), and peppered with all conceivable kinds of passive-aggressive, nonprofessional and nonacademic drama that didn't get anyone anywhere. Nope, my guess is that you discussed, kept *on topic*, and finally -- *took action* and built the thing, did your work, and moved on. Question: now that I've followed protocol and taken many suggestions to the Evolution Talk page, how does the "consensus" and "progress" process unfold now, resulting in a constructive edit to the article that won't immediately be reverted? THAT is the part of Wikipedia protocol I would be interested in witnessing, in action. Thanks,Mandaclair 00:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"Teaching your grandmother to suck eggs" :)

[1] :) Guettarda 06:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

treasure ships

hi there, I responded to your comment on treasure ships —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Intranetusa (talk • contribs) 23:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Moving on

My frustration level with one user has reached a point where it's not longer fun to engage in debate on Evolution and Creationism articles. Hopefully, others will stand up to his POV pushing and ranting, and his subtle ownership of every article. I'd make a case, but that's not my style. I like editing some of the history articles on WWII and English History. Those will be more fun. I hope Filll and others carry the torch. Maybe when that one user realizes that he's not absolutely right on every issue, I can return. But this is insane. The Intelligent design discussion has gone on for two weeks, and it's lost its charm. When one repeats themselves over and over with an expectation of a different result, and that result never happens, it's a sure sign of insanity.Orangemarlin 01:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Bill Clinton

I know that deleting messages on the talk page constitutes vandalism, and I didn't delete the comment for personal/political reasons. It was a mistake. I didn't read the entire comment when I deleted the comment. I only saw the heading that said "Worst president" (looks misleading) and the bulk of the comment that said Clinton being the root of all problems etc etc. Such comments are typical on pages of controversial figures like Ayaan Hirsi Ali etc, and I have removed comments before. Template {{notaforum}} produces message that says "This is not a forum for general discussion of -. Any such messages will be deleted." I didn't see the part that suggested that the page include hypothesis about Clinton being the bad president from reliable sources. And so I thought that the comment was irrelevant to the talk page, because the talk page is about discussing changes about the article, not about the subject itself. mirageinred 23:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I wasn't too worried, you seemed like a regular editor, so a lecture from me probably was overkill. However, even though I am a huge Bill Clinton supporter, and can't stand any negative comments, I am also not one to censor. It seems like we're on the same page, so no big deal! Orangemarlin 23:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I happened to notice this discussion & just wanted to mention that WP:BLP in fact encourages editors to remove unsourced opinions and claims about people in talk pages. This tends to be ignored with prominent politicians and the like but if it goes overboard, there is definitely no harm in removing such comments. Even if it's not a BLP, off topic comments are sometimes removed, especially when it goes overboard. Nil Einne 18:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I know, but a famous person like Clinton probably gets a lot of BS like that. To me, it wasn't all that bad. Orangemarlin 21:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Minoan eruption

Thanks, Orangemarlin. I was glad I had at last found a reference to this J.G. Bennett, who is mentioned in the article but is quite impossible to find. I had found an abstract of the article I reference on this rather obscure Catastrophism website, but hadn't noticed the article itself wasn't free. A pity. Maybe this Bennett will have to be dropped sometime; there surely are others who have claimed the same as he. Classical geographer 07:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I would think that this type of historical relationship would have been studied by a number of individuals. I would prefer, although I do not own the article, that we find a reference that isn't trying to "prove" the Moses story through the Thera eruption, rather someone who might show how the myth arose from the eruption. Subtle difference, but keeping a religious POV out of the article will reduce arguments. Orangemarlin 09:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with Evolution

Hi Orangemarlin. Just wanted you to know that I got fed up with Gnixon as well, and finally threw my hands into the air and left the Evolution article too. Wikipedia, in my general assessment, can be pretty damn ridiculous. The furthest thing from an intellectual, academic, or educational pursuit I can imagine! Anyway, my regards, Mandaclair 23:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Note how Gnixon archives parts of the article with discussions that may offend him and only him. But he lives in Creationist POV discussion as is. I intensely dislike his continued "policing" of the articles. He seems to derive some pleasure from using the factoring (I think that's what it's called) of the article, as if he and only he knows what's best. As for a number of articles on here dealing with Evolution and Creationism (including the Intelligent Design article), they have been corrupted and weakened by the POV pushers. It's interesting, I worked on the Religious perspectives on dinosaurs article, and I actually work with some of the more religious editors in making it a very good article. There are some sectional problems that need to be fixed, but otherwise a couple of the "creationist" editors have worked very closely in developing it. We have argued about things, but in the end we developed a NPOV that is both accurate and meets the needs of the reader. I once was shocked to see one of those editors revert a very POV edit that actually made the article more religious, but also more POV. Historically, the Evolution article was written over time with a lot of input from many different POV's--it used to be very well written, and was a featured article once. Now, it has been damaged by certain individuals trying to force a religious POV on the article. I'm hoping some of the stronger willed editors will come back. You should hang in there. Orangemarlin 09:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

You should come back. Your past contributions were good ones. It's hard sometimes to fight for intellectual integrity and fend off the agendas and rhetoric, but it's a worthy battle. TxMCJ 19:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

your edits to United States National Academy of Sciences

You don't seem to be a new user so I assume that you are not just trying to vandalize the article. It would be more productive if you participated in the discussion on the talk page for United States National Academy of Sciences rather than deleting sections of the article off hand. Kborer 17:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll be interested in your comment: the sources presented are inadequate for the claim of "criticism". By the way, the discussions on ID look interesting. .. dave souza, talk 18:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Orangemarlin: if you would, please have a look at the talk page for Evolution now. Things got a bit out of hand there today and I felt compelled to post something that was difficult, but I felt, necessary. I am sure that holy hellfire will rain upon me for it, but sometimes a person just has to do what she feels is right. Hope you come back around someday, TxMCJ 03:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I have. A certain editor keeps factoring or archiving discussions that are essentially opposed to his own. Amusing POV. Orangemarlin 09:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean about POV refactoring... he did it again today, where someone posted a question about "scientific controversy", and he left that posting and archived the response. Then he tried to justify this by the fact that exactly one person agreed to a format where the "original comment is left, and the rest is archived" -- when in fact, I doubt that one person fully understood the potential abuse of that system. TxMCJ 19:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I am currently trying to address this on the article talk page -- making sure that things get archived and factored objectively and consistently, with no POV pushing either way. Could be a losing battle with Gnixon, but I'm trying. TxMCJ 20:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate what you're doing, but have you seen what he's doing lately? He has redesigned the whole Evolution article to meet his needs. Maybe he thinks he has some sort of tacit support. I don't know. I'm watching. But unless some of the other editors jump in, I don't know if we can save the article from this religious POV attack. Orangemarlin 22:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

There are some good voices there -- Graft and Silence and GetAgrippa, and Filll still checks in from time to time. I am there trying to at least keep the conversations intellectual rather than rhetorical. Come back and join in again, orange -- majority consensus will prevail. Also: I daresay that the bold thing to do is just for one of us to just go ahead and edit the article to one of the more academic formats suggested by Silence or me or others, and simply refuse to allow POV-centered edits to the article to stand. Remember my long-standing complaint: how all of this roundabout discussion on the "talk" page really results in very little progress at the end of the day (which may in fact be the clever-but-not-invisible intentions of a certain editor), but the important thing is the article itself. If Gnixon wants to hinder the process by micromanaging the "talk" page and mixing up issues with intent and rhetoric and tangents, then let him have that little party. None of those suggestions are likely to culminate in anything meaningful, or gain much support. Then the rest of us can edit the actual article itself, which is really all that matters. TxMCJ 00:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

evolution

Hi. I am going to modify my comments on the evo talk page. I honestly think that your specific interactions with Gnixon over evolution as theory were trollish but I cannot and didn't mean to make any larger comment about your involvement in the article or you personally, and I apologize for my impatience and intemperance. About evolution being a theory - it is a theory. It is also a fact, but it is a theory. I understand entirely your frustration with people who think that theory = opinion. However, I am absolutely certain that the proper response is not to say that evolution is not a theory, but rather, to explain that theory is not the same as opinion. I think you are right that "theory of evolution" is used differently from "theory of gravity" but we have to insist that people use the word theory correctly, and be consistent in telling people they are wrong when they misuse it. The article has gone through many changes and I always thought a clear explanation of "theory" should be included ... right now I think it is in a spin-off article on misconceptions or FAQs. As to Gnixon - I have not observed him or her enough to make any general comments, but I have seen her make informed edits concerning science. In any event, whatever agenda she may/may not have, she is right to call evolution a theory. If you had criticized her for saying evolution is therefore not a fact, or that theory means opinion, I would have taken your side instantly but my reading of the argument (admittedly, a hasty one) is that she was simply saying evolution is a theory. Well, I will go over the discussion again. Thanks for contacting me. peace, Slrubenstein | Talk 11:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I found it and made a change. Gnixon explicitly stated that evolution is also a fact. You ask me what could you do differently. All I can say is: especially when you have finely-tuned sensitivities (e.g. to creationists), bend over backwards to assume good faith at leat by reading what someone says carefully and be willing to take it at face value. This is hard advice to follow because I often over-react myself. But in at least this one exchange with Gnixon I think you overreacted. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

My unsolicited 2 cents is that I agree with orangemarlin that there appear to be some subtle agendas at play here, and that much of Gnixon's suggestions often seem to be guided by a (perhaps unconscious and unintentional) attempt to make the article "more acceptable" to creationists. For example, creationsists love to incant "evolution is *only* a theory" over and over and over again. And whereas it is true that evolution is a scientific theory, it's not always clear whether Gnixon stresses that point for the sake of being intellectually complete, or because he knows that many readers with other beliefs or agendas would really like to see such a statement (which they do not really understand), top-center and first-foremost in the article. Sure, anyone can click to the FAQ and see the word "theory" defined, but I believe Gnixon knows that most readers won't do that, (and this is also the logic behind some of the POV-biased archiving and factoring strategies he takes.) It is possible that I am way off target with this, but that is, I believe, much of where orangemarlin's objections may come from. TxMCJ 22:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

With due respect, you are indeed way off target. Gnixon 22:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I have avoided your POV editing with a passion. I don't want to see your commentary on my personal page. Orangemarlin 22:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

And to add, with all due respect to G: anyone clearly and admittedly grounded in a POV that involves any doubt or disbelief about a certain topic (and worse: very little sound knowledge or background in that topic) has NO BUSINESS editing a scientific or informational article about that topic. I don't believe in the little gnomes and fairy-folk of Scandinavia, but I am not over at those pages monopolizing the talk pages and cluttering the airwaves because of it, while maintaining a false guise of belief and good faith. Not trying to launch an attack, G., but I just haven't the foggiest idea what on earth someone with your background is doing trying to take a lead on the Evolution page if it's not based on some agenda. It's not clear that your intent is based on knowledge, or a sincere intent to write a scientifically accurate and educationally valuable article. TxMCJ 00:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, OM, I've no desire to communicate with either of you, but I will answer lies. The paranoid are welcome to accuse me of being some deep-under-cover creationist with a hidden agenda, but I've certainly never "admitted" any such thing. Gnixon 04:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

So I guess you're a psychiatrist too. Wow, I didn't know that!!!! Orangemarlin 04:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Gnixon, are you denying being a creationist? Before you answer too quickly, you might want to read John 18:27... the Big Man's always listening, you know... TxMCJ 10:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"cricket, cricket..." TxMCJ 19:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

And hey OM, have you seen how Silence is pulling his hair out about this now as well? Check out this little gem he posted to Gnixon today: "The thing I understand least about this entire exchange is how you can so consistently and unwaveringly misrepresent what everyone else wants. It shouldn't even be possible to misunderstand what structure people are advocating or trying out, when those people have explicitly listed their entire article layout proposals in ToC form!" And there's more... it's rich, man, really rich. TxMCJ 08:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Administrative Action / Gnixon

Hey O -- I'm not asking for your help, just wanted you to know that Gnixon's started the threatened "administrative process"... I'm not wiki-savvy enough to know how to insert all the links like he has, but this shouldn't matter to any reasonable administrator. You can find the administrative/mediation discussion by following it from my Talk page. Comment there if you'd like, or stay out of it if you'd prefer. I'm not requesting either one. Advice is welcome too! Thanks, TxMCJ 21:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Crosspost of Administrative Action request response by Felonious Monk: (crosspost by TxMCJ 07:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC))

I see no evidence of either harassment or wikistalking here. What I do see is one user, Gnixon, who's been an aggressive and overly assertive editor on a number of topics and all too quick to accuse others and be incivil himself, making allegations that appear to be exaggerated against an editor he appears to be in a simple content dispute with. If Gnixon is genuinely so unaware that he considers the behavior he's described to be harassment and wikistalking, then my advice to him is to become more familiar with the terms and grow a thicker skin (being unwilling to get as good as he gives). But if he thinks he can use this venue find clueless admins to waylay opponents in simple content disputes, then he may find himself hoisted by his own petard and the community's goodwill rapidly diminishing for any future claims he may bring here. FeloniousMonk 05:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

A Troll

Are you now threatening me because I don't agree with you? Good to know you don't have any interest in science or reason, beyond your personal dogmas. What are you going to do next, come to my house? Don't get "e-tough" if you don't have anything to contribute, just shut up. This is really upsetting, none of you evolution fanatics have any interest in facts. --Fm.illuminatus 17:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Threatening? No. But you are in violation of WP:3RR. I'd suggest you read WP:CIVIL too. Orangemarlin 17:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, this guy is bad. I'm wondering if he's a sockpuppet of one of our favorites. Orangemarlin 17:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Citation templates

Hey OM, where the heck are the instructions for naming a reference for later use in the same article? I know I've seen them but I can't seem to find them now. You're the citations guru so I thought you could help. Thanks. --Margareta 20:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I've been using the CITET templates, but where do I find info on the "ref" tags? I know there's a way you can use them to name a reference the first time you use it so that you don't have to put the whole citation in every time you use it again in the same article. I just can't find the instructions on how to do it... Oh wait, found it here. Just had to hunt around a bit.

I agree it can be pretty amazing what gets in here as citations. It seems to be getting slowly better overall, though. --Margareta 04:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Three revert rule

I am quite aware of the three revert rule and how bullies use it to stop what they see as unsuitable edits. That was not the case with my edit to the Clinton page - but I couldn't really be bothered to argue the toss. PaddyBriggs 10:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Bill Clinton

Hockey editor? I'm an editor of many talents, master of none (see my contributions). Right or wrong, my fingerprints are over many US Presidential & Vice Presidential related articles. PS- Can anyone 'source' the correct date for Kucinich's introducing Impeachment articles against Dick Cheney? Is it April 25, 2007 (at Dennis Kucinich) or April 24, 2007 (at Dick Cheney). GoodDay 21:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll stick with the 'Al Gore Jr' edit (afterall, it's still wiki-linked to 'Al Gore'). No harm done. GoodDay 22:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, it was filed today, 4/24/07. Impeachment ResolutionOrangemarlin 22:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. GoodDay 22:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Intelligent design

2 is not the be all and end all, and, frankly, when it comes down to it, I'm the one who put up a block on the article because of the edit war, so it's my responsibility to mediate, propose compromises, and help work towards a version that as many people as possible can be happy with, or, at least, grudgingly accept. I'll admit to having my doubts over the ability to bring a few people into the compromise, but I really would appreciate if you would help. If you don't like the proposed compromises, by all means propose more. I do, however, think the first sentence of 2 has problems - for one thing, "is an argument for the existance of a God" is somewhat awkward English anyway, and that direct quote from the DI, complete with calling natural selection undirected... is troublesome.

If you honestly feel after consideration that they aren't acceptable, I accept that, but please do consider them first. A, B and D are actually pretty good - C probably was a mistake, given I forgot to add a replacement for some of the the removed content, but, oh well. Adam Cuerden ^talk 02:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I did a quick reply to your request on "ID isn't an argument for the existence of God". I didn't put it into its own section (sorry) as I don't think that is what we were trying to prove. I didn't think it would be anything worth a thread. Anyway, the problem comes with it being limited to only an argument for the existence of God and telling readers that as a statement of fact, when this is a disputed point. Morphh ^(talk) 21:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Morph, I agree that it is disputed, but only in a narrow sense of the word. DI individuals, when under oath, stated that it was an argument for G_d. How about language like, "Although it is claimed by DI that ID is science, in courts and in certain documents, ID appears to be an argument for the existence of G_d." I'm trying to balance both feelings with some equal weight, though I contend that most of the weight is that it is an argument for G_d.Orangemarlin 21:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Spellings

Just curious why do you spell 'God' 'G_d'? 68.109.234.155 18:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Because I'm Jewish, and traditionally we don't. There are a number of theories as to why, including the fact that Hebrew does not contain vowels (which is an odd argument). It is a sign of respect, to be honest, because in Judaism, G-d's name should never be erased, so we cannot blaspheme Him if we do not spell his name. Since a computer screen is not permanent, it does not matter, but I do it as a sign of respect and honor to my L_rd and G_d. See, Names of God in Judaism#In English for more information. And I bet you thought I was an atheist. Orangemarlin 18:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems like you are anti-christian. Frankly the whole name of God thing to me seems superstitious. Do you not feel you should respect other's relgions as much as I think you would like others to respect your? 68.109.234.155 18:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Not anti-Christian. I actually don't give two thoughts as to what you think about the name of G_d thing. I respect other religions as long as A) they keep it to themselves, B) keep it out of government and schools, C) are not anti-semetic, and D) don't shove it in my face. Orangemarlin 18:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You seem very angry at times. So others have to 'keep it to themselves'? Should jews not wear the headpiece in public? And not display the jewish symbol? And do not citizens have a right to petition the govt to have prayer in school and even petition to have the US become a Christian theocracy? Not saying they will succeed. But to stamp out their rights hurts others. I am sure you know the little saying where first they came for the jews, then the homosexuals, then the gypsies and then 'me'? I think the DI has a right to petition the government for what they feel is right and try to have laws changed and try to use the courts for what they think is right. You and I might disagree but they certainly have that right. They certainly have the right to free speech. Would you take that away from them so they would 'keep it to themselves'? 68.109.234.155 18:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope not angry. It's a yamaka, and keep it to themselves means precisely what I said--if you want to wear a cross, yamaka or turban, do so, just don't force the teaching of one religion over another. No, Citizens are expressly forbidden by the Constitution from having ANY mixing of religion and government. So no prayer in school. DI has no rights to do anything with schools or government (unless they want to run for a position), because it represents a religion. If you want to teach religion to children, go for it, but do it at home. I do. I sent my children to Hebrew school. Free speech is allowable as long as it does not impinge upon the rights of others. Prayer in school is not a protected right, it is, once again, mixing of religion and a government institution. There are a large number of fundamentalist christian PRIVATE schools in the country, go pray away in that atmosphere, I don't care. Orangemarlin 20:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

For your information, another editor seemed very incivil to me so I've commented here. Please advise me if I'm mistaken. .. dave souza, talk 18:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I've put up with a lot of incivil comments from rbj over the past few months. But changing that, which is a personal faith issue, is borderline anti-semitic. I've just about had it. And no, why would I think you're uncivil? Orangemarlin 18:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Diff for rbj's uncivil edits anti-semitism? Orangemarlin 19:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I was being a bit oblique, the intention was to make it clear it wasn't a suggestion that you'd been uncivil, and didn't think I'd been either. Have left a brief response to your heads-up, basically ANI seems sensible, sorry if I didn't appreciate how sensitive this was. All the best, .. dave souza, talk 20:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Evolution

Thanks, I'm just fiddling with refs at the moment, it really needs a major rewrite. I didn't protect it, it was already protected (which is why there hasn't been much vandalism!) All I did was add the tag that indicates it is protected. TimVickers 17:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Fred Hoyle

Hi Orangemarlin, Thanks for your comment on my talk page. I know you are not an idiot but you do jump to conclusions. Try reading the following article by Sir Fred, published in the most prestigious review journal in astronomy: [2] (page 16 in the journal if you are in a hurry, although the whole thing is quite fascinating).

Without a doubt, Fred Hoyle had some very strange ideas and was strongly opposed to the idea that evolution got going by chance. He was responsible for discovering/predicting one of the first famous examples of fine tuning, i.e. the Carbon-12 resonance. Barrow and Tipler give a couple of verbatim quotes from Hoyle showing that at other times he also offered what is now the standard anthropic explanation (a decade before the anthropic principle came into use.

NB: A google search for "Hoyle 747" offers several sources which suggests this is a real quote, albeit not from a Nature article. But he says much the same thing in the above article without the fanciful analogy.

Best wishes, PaddyLeahy 22:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

PS I note that you reverted fine-tuned universe back to your version after admitting on Talk:Objections to evolution that Hoyle probably did tell the 747 story. But that's not really the point; the question here is whether Hoyle supported a "metaphysical" solution to fine-tuning and there is ample evidence from eg the Barrow & Tipler quotes, not to mention the paper cited above, that he did. So I think you are honour-bound to undo this particular edit. PaddyLeahy 23:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm a little calloused towards arbitrary edits without facts. In this case, I have spent some valuable time reading the linked Hoyle article. It reads like a Philosophy article rather than a scientific one (and frankly, I haven't a clue about this two isotopes of Oxygen and what it means); my conclusion from reading a few key sections is that he is pondering some unusual bits of order that don't make sense, but nowhere does he conclude that the universe is ordered by anything, let alone little green aliens, Zeus or a Judeo-Christian deity. I guess one could quote-mine a couple of sentences, but in a 37 page treatise, that's a bit much to say conclusively that he's a Creationist or believes in some sort of intelligent design. With regards to the Hoyle 747 google search, I actually did that and read a number of the top 50 hits. Most of them, frankly, referred back to either a) the nonexistent Nature article, or b) referred to someone who might have heard him say it (hearsay). In either case, I have no proof he ever said it, but the myth is so persistent, it could be true. It's just that something so critical to a critique of Evolution should have some substance. Again, I'd like to see one article where Hoyle denies everything. By the way, because I cannot, for certain, comprehend the Big Bang and abiogenesis, I remain unsure as to roles of little green men or a Judeo-Chrisitian deity in starting (but certainly not guiding) the development of the natural universe). Orangemarlin 23:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I certainly did not admit that he did tell the 747 story, I keep finding pieces of hearsay that he did, but certainly no conclusive facts, citation or context. Who knows what he was saying, if he even did. Orangemarlin 23:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It was not suggested on that page that Hoyle was a creationist in the religious sense. If you do trouble to read Hoyle's article more carefully, you will see that his position is very close to the "official" position of the ID-ers in that he thinks there is "an enormous intelligence abroad in the universe" which has "monkeyed with physics", fixing the energy levels of carbon and oxygen in a "put-up job" to maximise production of these elements. This is a classic (if not the classic) example of fine tuning. (if this still reads like gobbldegook I respectfully suggest that you find out just a little about the relevant physics before editing pages discussing fine tuning). I'm sure Hoyle is not being coy in failing to identify this "enormous intelligence" with God; in his autobiography he comes over as very anti-religious, and I think you've seen quotes from his other books opposing creationism as usually understood.

I don't want to argue about 747s; whether Hoyle said it or not, there was no reason to edit the fine-tuned universe article since the story is not cited there and your assumption that Hoyle was mentioned because of that story was wrong; the 747 argument is widely regarded a fallacy, but the Carbon-12 fine tuning is taken seriously by physicists; in fact Hoyle won the Crafoord Prize largely on account of it. So, as far as editing without facts goes, we are both guilty. I know citations are sadly lacking on that page, but Sir Fred's maverick status is one of the most well-known facts referred to there; he prided himself in disagreeing with the establishment. PaddyLeahy 00:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there a "plain English" version of the O2 isotope issues and why that might indicate a FTU? I tried a google search and found nothing that helped me understand it better. Orangemarlin 22:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Best description I know is in Barrow & Tipler's The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, pp 250-255; this is mostly plain English but they do expect the reader to have some scientific background. They in turn cite Hoyle's (1965) Galaxies, Nuclei and Quasars, but it's not clear whether this is technical or for the general public — if the latter it's probably just what you want. You won't like to hear this, but for on-line versions, the Bradley & Collins links given on fine-tuned universe are fair and accurate on this point at least (& more up-to-date than B&T in the case of Collins), although not as detailed as B&T. There may very well be versions on other university web sites; I havn't done a search. Otherwise there is a brief, non-quantitative description in Ree's Just Six Numbers and I expect it's covered in Davies' The Goldilocks Enigma but I havn't read that. (NB I take it you're asking about the fine tuning issue, on which all the above agree, not on attempted explanations, which consist of all the usual suspects... e.g. Davies' list quoted at anthropic principle). PaddyLeahy 01:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Revert away, then editors clean up later

You wrote: "ImprobabilityDrive will probably not form a consensus based on past behavior. His MO is to revert away, then editors clean up later." Where did this occur? I am the one doing the clean up on the article (e.g., the unused references). I did not delete the sentences those references went to; you must have me confused with some other person who leaves messes. I try to leave things neat and tidy. If I left a mess somewhere, I really want to know, so I can go clean it up, or just study it and learn. ImprobabilityDrive 01:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm offended by editors who start an ANI on a whim. You're having a small content conflict, and you immediately make a bogus charge against another editor. That's the mess. I've seen this kind of activity before. Orangemarlin 05:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

It was not on a whim. It was, in my opinion, disruptive editing. I tried to work with the other contributor, but he was very adament in editing a brand new section that was in progress. It did not turn out well. Before and after the ANI I tried working with the other editor. Initially, when FeloniousMonk sided with me, and gave the other editor a warning, it bolstered my belief that I was right. FeloniousMonk even stated that I should have filed the claim sooner, that I had waited too long. You've seen his response. Later, he retracted the warning dismissing it as a content dispute. I am not sure why, because I still think it was IMHO disruptive editing.

I am not sure if the reversal was because it was a simple content dispute, or due to intimations that I am User:Gnixon. I am not User:Gnixon, and if you review the logs of myself against Gnixon, you might find evidence of this (e.g., at least one of his posts are bracketed by two of mine. I stopped searching after that). Also, after studying your contributions log, I see you have a history of making false accusations of sockpuppetry. Now, I would like to start over again with you, if possible. Please AGF, and let's work together. I'd also appreciate it if you would spread the word that I am not Gnixon. ImprobabilityDrive 07:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

One mistake on sockpuppetry, so chill out. And I don't file accusations until I have lots of evidence, and my success rate is amazing. Of course, spending as much time looking through my user contributions, you would have known that. So if you're going to make another accusation that I do something like that, you better have a load of evidence, or my ANI against you will not have a reversal from FM. And trust me, FM knew what he was doing with you. Your ANI was without merit, which is what Gnixon did on several cases. I will not spread any word one way or another, I asked an admin to determine if you were or not.Orangemarlin 08:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Chilled. I am not out to get you. I am just defending myself. I really would like to start over again with you if possible. ImprobabilityDrive 08:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

As I stated on my user page, OM was well within his rights. •Jim62sch• 16:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Uh, huh?

Orange, this was not directed at you: "Planning on starting an edit war? Not a wise move." Why would you think it was? It was a direct response to I-Drive (odd that his initials are ID, no?). To the best of my knowledge I've not criticised anything you've done and think you're a pretty good editor. Deep breath...relax...feel better? •Jim62sch• 16:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

"I-Drive (odd that his initials are ID, no?" Poetic. Actually, it is from a term used in the hitch-hickers guide to the galaxy. Do you know if there is a way to change my account name? It probably is not wise to have a user name with the initials ID, as it leads to this sort of backbiting. I'll have to study up on the issue. I want it to be Infinite Improbability Drive, which is closer to the actual term used in the HGTTG. Are the initials IID approved in this brood? ImprobabilityDrive 16:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Everyone, please remember that IID has a Heart of Gold! It's worth reviewing the articles and getting closer to the most reliable sources, but in this area of discussion there's a danger of overrating the reliability of newspapers and underrating "science blogs", so that's a reason for careful discussion before making edits which can be misunderstood. So, IID's help should be appreciated but not accepted uncritically. Shuffles off clanking, brain the size of a small planet and they leave me here to rust... dave souza, talk 16:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

More Noah's Ark nonsense

Take a look at this bbc article:

• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4853890.stm

This guy is building a 1/5 scale boat (90 feet long or so then) and he plans to cruise around on the Dutch water canals with some baby animals on it to "prove" that Noah's Ark existed. He thinks that children hearing the creaking of the wood and smelling the poop will be convinced that Noah's Ark was real. Wow that sounds like really great proof doesnt it? --Filll 20:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's always good to know that Europe has a few fundies running around. What a nutjob!Orangemarlin 19:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

A little something for you

		The Undeniable Mechanism Award
		For arguing the undeniable mechanism, upholding intellectual rigour, and expanding evolution topics, it is my pleasure to pin this badge upon your most evolved chest. Samsara (talk • contribs) 08:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

User talk:68.109.234.155

Thanks much for the heads up and the positive feedback, I had not noticed; but since IP's usually aren't blocked for long in practice, it is not a concern. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 00:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Well, ImprobabilityDrive is having a go now at Sternberg peer review controversy which he's completely white washed to repeat the Sternberg/Discovery Institute account of events. Unfortunately I'm at my 3RR limit so am unable to restore the complete NPOV version till tomorrow. Odd nature 00:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'll be there to revert any more of his silly edits. I'm exhausted with that guy, considering he called me a troll. I'm at my limit with certain POV-pushing editors. Orangemarlin 00:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I filed a checkuser. If you have anything to add please do so: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/ImprobabilityDrive. Arbustoo 15:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Just for reference, 3RR reports can be made at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Sometimes, it's best to let the blocks be made by admins that have not previously commented on the situation in any way. Regards, Samsara (talk • contribs) 16:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

With regards to the 3RR, I thought he needed a warning first, before filing a report. He stopped the edit war (although not his verbal abuse), once he received the warning. Isn't that the procedure, or do you report at the third edit? Orangemarlin 16:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Heart attacks

I honestly don't care whether that user has been uncivil or not, I'm not getting involved except to say, you weren't civil yourself. If you truly wanted to defuse the situation, it would have been better to approach the situation on much more neutral terms, not respond in the same vein. It's a very difficult line to walk, and in this case, I don't think you choose the most effective course. Mister.Manticore 23:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You have got to be kidding. Orangemarlin 00:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm quite serious, especially in this case where you have expressed the concern that the user is a problem. In such cases, it's best to take a non-confrontational approach, and to work extra hard to be polite and neutral. That way, you provide less provocation to what may be an already unstable situation. I think it would have been much better to tone down the level of your comments, and try to take a less confrontational approach instead. For example, you might have simply said to the editor that you believe that the admin's actions were proper without commenting on them in any way at all. Mister.Manticore 01:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Are we done with this conversation? Thanks. Orangemarlin 03:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, is there anything else you'd like to discuss? I sincerely hope you consider the wisdom in taking a more diplomatic route in the future, but if you don't, that's going to be your problem to deal with. Mister.Manticore 04:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Now are we done with this conversation? Orangemarlin 04:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Email

FYI, I've sent you an email. JoshuaZ 04:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Got it and replied.  :) Orangemarlin 04:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

ImprobabilityDrive

FYI [3] Guettarda 14:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. But why was the checkuser Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/ImprobabilityDrive declined if he is a sockpuppet? I still think he is a sockpuppet of Gnixon too, based on writing styles, so I hope that one day Gnixon is banned. Orangemarlin 14:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why it was declined, but probably because it was an accusation of sockpuppetry, but not abusive sockpuppetry - not used to stack votes or create an undue sense of consensus. Jason, on the other hand, is permanently banned, so any sock of his can be blocked "on sight". Guettarda 15:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your very fair comment here. Our odd natured friend seems to know an awful lot about procedures for someone who only joined up on 27 April 2007, and seems to have edited contentious articles, and... no, that way lies madness. AGF ;) ... Thanks again, .. dave souza, talk 19:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow

I do not agree with you on the Sternberg controversy, but I just wanted to say that this and this were honorable. However, I am not so sure about these: [4], [5], [6]. I wouldn't take the bait. Double entendres are done all of the time, and while I do apologize for them, others have done the same to me.

Would you be interested in seeking reconciliation? Maybe we can have Dave S or another more moderate user mediate informally at first. Infinite Improbability Drive 01:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, given your two honorable posts mentioned above, I do apologize for calling you a troll. Infinite Improbability Drive 02:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

1. You shouldn't worry about what I email to another editor. As a matter of fact, it's a bit strange that you would worry about it.
2. There's no need for mediation. I have no problem with you.
3. I appreciate the apology. Orangemarlin 04:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Orangemarlin. With all that has happened recently, I am a bit paranoid. Hopefully, after I have walked away from the controversial articles until my mentorship is over, we all will be able to handle disagreements without making such big deals. Infinite Improbability Drive 05:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this.[7] Infinite Improbability Drive 05:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

OrangeMarlin, thank you for your kind words on my behalf on Jimbo's talk page. I hope that this can all be worked out soon. Again, thank you. Pastor David ^† _(Review) 04:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I am quite embarrassed by how Til treated you, because I think he has lost his cool based on what he perceived to be anti-Mormon comments from me and others. Orangemarlin 04:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/ImprobabilityDrive

Please leave your thoughts Wikipedia:Requests for comment/ImprobabilityDrive. Arbustoo 05:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Especially now that I've obliquely used your name in vain.  ;) •Jim62sch• 12:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

You used my name in vain? How dare you? I'm filing a Request for Slapping Someone About the Head, the infamous RSSAH. Orangemarlin 17:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

If you have evidence take it to WP:RFCU. Arbustoo 19:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Evidence for what? Orangemarlin 19:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Mention what you found about the IP connection, and refile a WP:RFCU. It will likely be approved this time. Arbustoo 19:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Will do. Do you have the link? Orangemarlin 20:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I started to revise it: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/ImprobabilityDrive. Arbustoo 20:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for your message. Yes, I have been following the debate with interest.

I have had discussions with ImprobabilityDrive via email and informed him that, should be be evading bans, then he will get found out soon enough and be dealt with accordingly. That may indeed be the most probably explanation and the current checkuser may confirm that.

However, it is also possible that he is simply a good faith editor who stumbled into a contentious debate in a clumsy manner. If that is the case, then this checkuser - and any subsequent ones - will validate him. He is indicated to me that is the case, and I'm willing to afford him some good faith, even if it appears unlikely on the face of it. Time will tell. Rockpocket 20:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Rockpuppet, with all respect, you don't know I-drive like we know I-drive. His use of arcane tags shows a knowledge of having been actively involved in Wikipedia for some time. I have 13K+ edits and I never saw some of the tags I-drive has used. In addition, I-drive has met the threshold for not extending AGF: This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary.

OM, still waiting for the RSSAH. •Jim62sch• 20:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Jim, sorry, but the rules were far too complicated. I had to find 24 diffs, I had to prove that I gave you at least 3 chances to amend your posts. I gave up. Besides, it's more fun to take on the Creationist cabal!!!!! Orangemarlin 20:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

As for AGF, after I got lectured by Silence for not following all of the arcane points of law regarding AGF, I give up. I'm going to assume no faith, just as a good "Evolutionist" should. LOL. Orangemarlin 20:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't doubt that he has edited here before, probably extensively. But that does not automatically make him a sockpuppet, nor does it mean that he was previously banned. I-Drive has indicated to me the reasons why he would prefer not to comment on the issue of previous activity, and that is his perogative. I certainly don't have any problem with your belief that I-Drive is a sockpuppet, nor do I have any objections to your actions to prove it. You are absolutely correct that I don't appear to know him like you guys do. My position is simply that if this he is not a sockpuppet account (however unlikely that may be), and he wishes to ask for advice on how to be a better editor, then I am happy to offer that. If he is a sockpuppet, then you guys will show that and we all move on. Rockpocket 20:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Rockpocket, ImprobabilityDrive answered "no" to the question if he had previous accounts here. So you think this user might not be telling the truth? Arbustoo 20:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)