User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Is increased heat tolerance found in ant colonies in urban heat islands a textbook example of evolution?

Before I ask my question, thank you for your part in creating the foundation for the world brain H.G. Wells talked about. I think it's reciprocal given that the wikipedia foundation annually asks for money, that I ask you for money as well; it being a very economically Dickens holiday season. I would donate money if I had any, though I'd prefer the concept of money to no longer exist. Now onto my actual question; I've noticed that you created the page for urban heat island. I added a reference that ant colonies often show an increased heat tolerance in urban heat islands. Would this be a good example of more quickly observable evolution for the evolution article? CensoredScribe (talk) 20:36, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

A policy-based answer is that it is not a good reference. In order for it to be a good reference the source would have to discuss the question of evolution explicitly, but even then, as an empirical study, it would be a primary source per WP:RS, and a secondary source would be preferable. In fact there is an even better reason why it is not a good reference: the article explicitly says, "Currently, we do not know whether the difference between the heat tolerances of urban and rural ants has a genetic basis or simply results from plastic responses to environmental conditions." Therefore any attempt to interpret this as evidence for evolution would be original synthesis. Looie496 (talk) 16:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no knowledge and no opinion about this. :-) I believe I created the article back in 2001 with some very basic information because I wanted to learn more. I certainly have no particular qualifications in this area.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Not just original synthesis, but pure speculation. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Jimbo, it turns out that you didn't actually create the article in the first place. I've imported the relevant edit into the current Wikipedia database. Graham87 03:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia's obvious biases and prejudices

 Partly Resolved: The map image has been deleted from wikipedia commons however, the issues with some editors remain with feelings still hot over this sensitive issue. Additional discussion along with a potential wrong unblock can be found here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Nyttend's improper unblock.

No, many are disturbed that the filing editor was blocked and then unblocked by an involved administrator. The issue over the map was resolved very quickly through a consensus discussion on the talk page of the article that was then unprotected with that specific issue taken care of. This isn't about feelings. Wikipedia should be a safe place for people to edit without harassment or hatred actually supported by admin.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I clarified the header as to centralize the discussion, feel free to change or edit it yourself if you wish as I am not putting a signature on what has happened so far. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:06, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

File:Status of gay persons.jpg I noticed this image and it is the most flagrantly and flamboyantly biased, point of view, assumptive and political agenda pushing thing I have seen here yet. "Evolving"? "Worse"? Excuse me? This is wikipedia's official political stance on the policies of other governments now? I think there needs to be a major discussion and people need to see if this can be allowed here. 71.127.137.154 (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

It does seem to be OR. The description of the photo says: "Status of gay persons = (Human Development Index 2013 + Democracy Index 2012) + Legal recognition + (Gay Pride index 2011 + Gay visibility up to 10 + Political visibility up to 10) /3" Perhaps you need to approach Commons about taking it down. I don't know if the rules there are the same as here. Bielle (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not have an official political stance on anything. Besides that, that file is not used on any Wikipedia page other this one, since you just posted it here. You're making a fuss out of nothing.--Atlan (talk) 22:31, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've removed it from Societal attitudes toward homosexuality. It would be one thing if this was quoting someone else's assessment of the situation and we made it clear we were just saying what their opinion was, but I can't see how it's possibly appropriate for Wikipedia to be grading governments against an arbitrary set of criteria. Mogism (talk) 22:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

And someone else has put it back in, claiming that it "appears to shows data collected from sources". Not going to edit war over this but I can't see how this isn't WP:OR and WP:SYNTH in their purest form. Mogism (talk) 22:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I am not satisfied that this is what is being claimed and don't think a deletion from a discussion on Jimbos talkpage is exactly the right move. I will defer to the projects on this.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I also take exception to the what appears to b a rather insensitive header here. Really? "flamingly". Was that appropriate?--Mark Miller (talk) 22:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I think this is getting into potentially ugly territory. Gays and lesbians and the like have a right to be treated with the same respect, equality, and basic human dignity that everyone else enjoys. I fail to see how it is original research or synthesis to show...in an article titled "Societal attitudes toward homosexuality"... which nations of the world have state (e.g. Russia) or religious (e.g. pretty much all of the Islamic world) -backed institutional discrimination towards LGBT people. If the IP editor is demanding that the Wikipedia give equal airtime to bigots and prejudiced attitudes regarding homosexuality, then I hope this person is given a very cold and unwelcome shoulder. (Note the snide "flamingly" and "flamboyant" digs there, too). Tarc (talk) 22:56, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not arguing with that (I can't speak for the IP), but that's not what this map shows. It would be one thing to have a map showing the legal status of homosexuality, UN (say) figures on the rate of persecution etc as that would be citeable. "(Human Development Index 2013 + Democracy Index 2012) + Legal recognition + (Gay Pride index 2011 + Gay visibility up to 10 + Political visibility up to 10) /3", OTOH, is pure OR and SYNTH, since it's the OP assigning their own arbitrary importance to the various measures. What, for instance, is the difference between a "gay friendly city" and an "other friendly city", and why, for instance, is London "gay-friendly", Amsterdam "other-friendly", and Manchester, generally considered the most gay-friendly city in Europe, omitted altogether? (It can't be a matter of size, as relatively insignificant places like Reykjavik and Montevideo are singled out.) Mogism (talk) 23:01, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

This graphic is a simple editorial matter. Can't we just steer the IP to the correct venue? As an aside, I noticed than the author of the graphic has proposed adding it to homophobia, which is problematic as it relies too heavily on original research and the legend is not very neutral. - MrX 23:15, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

(ecx2)It is indeed "flamingly obvious" that the map is complete and utter bollocks. South Africa should be rated at the top of the scale, not the middle. It is one of only a handfull of countries where gay marriage is completely legal, gay people can adopt children, serve openly in the military, etc. It is also afaik the only country where all forms of discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity is expressly forbidden by the constitution, not merely legislation. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 23:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

So, no comment on the unusually biased manner in which it is presented here? I am not at all clear that this is original research to such a degree that it is against a policy or guideline as original research is allowed to a point in images. However this is relying on information to create it. They didn't pull the content out of thin air.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:21, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course it was presented rather emotionally, but it was definitely the author's interpretation and manipulation of the data the resulted in the map. I think it represents a bold and good faith effort, but it violates at least a couple of our policies. - MrX 23:39, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Geez, guys, way to assume bad faith here. The user has now provided the source of the maps and the data therein; OneEurope. So perhaps now we could leave behind all of the "just a newbie making stuff up" and now discuss whether this OneEurope's analysis of gay rights in various countries is a useful metric for the article. Tarc (talk) 00:11, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Note that the byline on that OneEurope article is " Alessandro Vitiello | 26 Nov 2013". This looks rather similar to User:Aless2899, and in any case the article provides no source for the fomula used to construct the map. Who chose those indices in those proportions? DES ^(talk) 00:29, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

OMG! The Gays are at it! Seriously though, it took less than a day from file creation to it being a "flamingly" bad problem? As far as I can see this is a hopeless ambiguous representation of very complex attitudes. I would think the same about a similar image showing tolerance for different races and ethnicities. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:05, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

But this isn't a map showing tolerance for different races and ethnicities, its a map purporting to show views on sexual immorality / morality. Therefore, logically, a map of countries' attitudes toward bestaility, incest, pedophilia, and then judging them as "better" "improving" and "worst" countries using that as the be-all and end-all sacred cow criteria, would be a much closer analogy. 71.127.137.154 (talk) 00:19, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

That was really disgusting and way off. "The map shows the status of gays and lesbians worldwide, analysing democracy, development, visibility, legal aspects, political presence.". Period. I see nothing to support the IP's claims about "Therefore, logically, a map of countries' attitudes toward bestaility, incest, pedophilia, and then judging them as "better" "improving" and "worst" countries using that as the be-all and end-all sacred cow criteria". That sounds very much like a homophobic rant and nothing more.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, can't hear you, the right-wing doesn't play very well where science and rational thinking are needed. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:30, 27 November 2013 (UTC) Not helping anything. Sportfan5000 (talk) 14:30, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I do not like the way homosexual behaviour is now being actively and vehemently promoted in every country and in my country by a few foreign individuals. I deeply resent anyone suggesting that wikipedia is obliged support this sickness and adopt the same bias in the name of "tolerance" and directly label my country in opposition to my country's government. This will become a political issue with wikipedia and will then have to be pursued that way. So, yes, you could say I have bad faith with this poster. 71.127.137.154 (talk) 00:32, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Someone should block the IP now that they have shown their true colors and we should all move on.--Atlan (talk) 00:35, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Really? Because you are attacking my government? Homosexuals have always judged the entire world through their sore tortured prisms, that's nothing new but they need to get their own wiki or their own pedia, this isn't the homopedia, this is everybody's wikipedia like it or not! 71.127.137.154 (talk) 00:40, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

That's quite a leap. Explain to me how identifying you as a homophobe is attacking your government, whichever that is.--Atlan (talk) 00:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Atlan, every culture is different even though you may disagree you still should respect their POV and they should respect yours. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:50, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

It's no wonder you have a "consensus" for such pro-homosexual biases and prejudices when you muzzle and banish everyone who does not share them! That's a false consensus though. 71.127.137.154 (talk) 00:46, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand that you are upset and feel that your country is being mislabeled here, right now the image is being questioned so please do not go on the offensive here. Also understand that every country is different when It comes to dealing with the issue. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I feel the image should be deleted, it hurts more than it helps. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:37, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is a Commons image so that would have to be done there. DES ^(talk) 00:40, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I have requested administrative attention here.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay thanks, at the very least it should be listed to establish a firm consensus as this is a hot topic. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:40, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Came here from Mark Miller's WP:AN posting. Atlan's comment is a textbook example of how we are nowhere near being neutral on the issue of homosexuality. In favor of pretending that homosexuality is normal/okay/etc.: you're normal and can participate here. Opposed: you're hateful and don't deserve to participate here. Let me remind such commentators that aggressive advancement of such a position is harassment. Nyttend (talk) 00:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Atlan's comments are a textbook example of how we are nowhere near being neutral on the issue of homosexuality? How so? He requested a block for homophobic bias and soapboxing from what it looks like to me.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:48, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes thanks Mark that's what I meant. The IP is being openly homophobic here in this thread, calling it a disease. It is not an inference on my part as Nyttend apparently makes it out to be.--Atlan (talk) 00:58, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Homosexuality is not accepted worldwide remember. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:53, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

No, but neither is Judaism or being a Moslem, or having a different skin color or ethnic origin. It is longstanding policy that admins will indefinitely block active, position-promoting Antisemites, Islamophobes, or Racists. The classification of activist homophobia as acceptable somehow is jarringly at odds with those other standards. The IP is blocked. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:59, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I for one generally favor "gay rights", but oppose this particular image, not because of any PoV it expresses, but as a violation of WP:SYNTH. DES ^(talk) 00:50, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

• It does not appear to be so, as there is clearly a good deal of sources used. Can you demonstrate that these sources have been manipulated or used against policy or guidelines please.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR2013_EN_Summary.pdf http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/ http://www.economist.com/node/8908438 http://www.gayprideindex.org/ http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/753687/same-sex-marriage/299742/The-future-of-same-sex-marriage#toc297960 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_first_LGBT_holders_of_political_offices_in_the_United_Kingdom http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/258.pdf http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/06/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Homosexuality-Report-FINAL-JUNE-4-2013.pdf --Mark Miller (talk) 01:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Do the precise classification of countries on the map match what is in those sources, or are the classifications pulled out of the author's ass? (Honest question, I have not had time to go through them.) Someguy1221 (talk) 01:27, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

It appears that the user has selected indices provided by these sources, (selecting them from among various others that could have been used) added them up according to his own formula (weighting some as 1 and some as 1/3 for no given reason) and then rated the sums from best to worst on a scale again apparently of his own devising. I call that WP:SYNTH no matter how accurately the user has transcribed the various indices from the sources. DES ^(talk) 01:33, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

If you are not clear on the exact formula used, can you claim it is made from their own devices? Is this utterly unfixable or is this something that can be corrected?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:59, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I am clear on the formula used, or at least the formula that the image caption states was used. But if there is a source for the formula beyond the user's own choice, that source has not yet been cited. DES ^(talk) 02:05, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest replacing "evolving" with "transitional" and "worse" with "nonintegrated". Bus stop (talk) 01:51, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

It still wont change the status of the countries and how they are labeled. I agree this is WP:SYNTH. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:53, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I, for one, do hope Jimbo jumps in, for usually in cases like this he has some nugget of wisdom that (for me at least) makes me say "Of course!" But for anyone who cares here's my two cents- Surely some professor some where has actually made a map or table of the world's nations attitudes towards the LGBT community... Has anyone researched if something actually exists that can replace this map?Camelbinky (talk) 01:58, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Setting aside the question of whether the image should exist at all, "evolving" and "transitional" both imply a direction, thus violating WP:CRYSTAL. Better would be something like "partial" or "mixed". --Guy Macon (talk) 15:55, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

The original map provided on the article, File:World homosexuality laws.svg is the closest thing we have, although it identifies countries specifically by their laws alone. Perhaps, at it's core, the entire idea presented by the other map is flawed by attempting to show a "status". Not completely sure. Is "Status" intangible?--Mark Miller (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

The map in question here was designed to define "status" as the weighted sum of various indices. It is not even clear that all of those indices had a Level of measurement permitting valid sums (i.e. are based on an interval or better a ratio scale). In the absence of that such a "sum" is mathematically meaningless. DES ^(talk) 02:22, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

It is possible that the entire idea of the map was to define "status" per the above but it has not exactly be demonstrated. Can an individual index be picked out at random to show this?--Mark Miller (talk) 03:03, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Not from the map as provided, it gives only a bracketed value of the sum "Status of gay persons = (Human Development Index 2013 + Democracy Index 2012) + Legal recognition + (Gay Pride index 2011 + Gay visibility up to 10 + Political visibility up to 10) /3" which surely looks to me like an attempt to define "Status of gay persons" as the value of the stated formula. Any user could of course find published data on any one of these indices, and create a table or (with more work) a color coded map from that data. Whether that would represent "Status of gay persons" is a different question. DES ^(talk) 03:47, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure they are two different issues. If it is assumed that "status" cannot be represented from any particular index used and is simply "assumed" I would think that enough to disqualify use alone. Accurate representation of what the sources claim is needed to create such an image. If, on the other hand, the indices are claiming a particular status, that may be enough.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:01, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

True, if an RS says "X index (or formula) measures the status of gay persons" or anything similar, then we can report that with proper attribution. If any source has said that about this or any other formula, I have yet to see the cite. DES ^(talk) 04:21, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Good point to raise here. Let me take a quick look and see if there is anything close to this available.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:00, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

From whose point of view though? Im sure there are maps out there but some may have people's opinions as a factor added to it. How can we find a neutral map? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

If a map is fully sourced to an RS, and any opinions it embodies can be attributed, then it is no different than a quote from a possibly biased source, properly attributed. DES ^(talk) 02:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay fair enough. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:08, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi I have requested the image to be deleted but not bing practical with Wikipedia at all I just sent a deletion request. I don't want the image to appear on wikipedia anymore. The image is clearly not mold wikipedian. I just posted it at the beginning as I thought it wouldn't have appear immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aless2899 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Unblocked

The user who made the homophobic rant has been unblocked by Nyttend who is involved enough to not have clean hands. The original admin who made the block has requested that the block be reinstated and I do as well [1]. Clearly the editor deserved the block and the unblock request was unacceptable when it makes accusations against others. What the hell is going on here?--Mark Miller (talk) 02:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

It's getting really old seeing discussion after discussion at the noticeboards where homophobia is okay and ignored or promoted by admin, while in the same position racism would not be tolerated from the first instance. If Wikipedia can't sort this out with a consistent policy then it doesn't deserve to retain LGBT users. We're not a punching bag for the homophobes who want to edit here instead of Conservapedia and AGF should be applied equally.

Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:32, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Jenova20, can you please link to a diff where an admin is promoting homophobia? I would be happy to bring that to the ANI board if you like. Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 14:22, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

@Jenova20: I agree. We have a few admins who really go out of their way not only to allow this type of behaviour, but to encourage it with twisted interpretations of our policies. I'm waiting to see how this issue and the WP:Fag RfD issue is resolved to decide if I'm going to continue to contribute to a project that allows thinly-veiled homophobia from users with few, if any, contributions toward actually building an encyclopedia. I'm also really tired of the constant devil-advocating and strained incredulity of some of our users, but at least most of them are not admins. - MrX 15:33, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

@Malerooster: How about the last time i was at ANI over a certain user who harassed and disrupted Talk:Homophobia for over a year, violating multiple policies, and has been able to get away scott-free despite using the same tactics on two articles since, at least one of which led to another ANI discussion? This user not only got to carry this out, but was ignored by Admins, unchallenged by them, and at the first ANI i took part in also got away with accusing the entire LGBT Wikiproject of being "activists" with only me challenging him over it.

There's no point having policies if they're not enforced and an entire section of the Wikipedia population is editing at a disadvantage. I'm not linking to any diffs as i have no idea where ANI cases from ~1 year ago would be stored. Nor do i want to link to the user. MrX will certainly know who it is though and confirm this as i believe he took part in the first ANI case and witnessed the year long trolling that led to it.

Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 16:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Jenova20, without diffs and not knowing what specifically happened I can't comment further except to say I am sorry if you feel you are being bullied or ignored, not to put words in your mouth. No group should feel harassed, ect. --Malerooster (talk) 01:39, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Bullying isn't the only issue, the issue is that racism = uncontroversial ban. Homophobia and transphobia = nothing in most cases or a controversial ban (Just like the Chelsea Manning issue again and this issue too). If this is the way the community operates fairly then AGF is useless and every LGBT editor is a sitting duck.

There's a reason so many people say the noticeboards and ANI don't work, it's because they don't. Personal opinion is able to trump the established rules unchallenged and LGBT editors deserve better.

Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:44, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

The ANI consensus - not unanimous, but 80% or so - is that the unblock was improper, the block was ... perhaps excessive, but justified, and I have stated on ANI I will reblock if they offend again in a like manner. If they think they "got away with" something they are wrong. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 10:06, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

That's something good from this but the fact that the discussion became a free-for-all to further attack LGBT editors is deplorable and aboslutely disgraceful. If Automatic Strikeout really has quit Wikipedia then we just lost one more editor to the homophobes. These incidents are becoming more frequent and worse. Thanks editors who have morals ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 13:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

It's a bad idea to label another group of editors. By calling people "homophobes" you are joining a battle. Wikipedia is not for battles of any sort. If somebody makes a bigoted remark the usual first step is to call them out and ask them to fix their remark. If their reply is more extreme, they might be blocked at that point. A sudden block without warning is only used in egregious cases where it's already clear that the user isn't attempting to work properly. Jehochman ^Talk 13:52, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

That appears to be what happened here. The IP made a remark, he/she were called out on it, and then the IP escalated. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't intend to sugar coat it at all. If an editor feels fine to attack LGBT editors on the basis of sexuality then WP:AGF and Comment on the contribution, not the contributor have already been ignored. To put it bluntly, if certain editors can make homophobic remarks unpunished then logic follows that calling said editor a twat, or worse should also go unpunished. To punish the people being attacked further serves only to cause more people to leave in protest and encourage the behaviour to get worse. I'm currently mulling over leaving myself but am not quite at the point Automatic Strikeout is, although i was quite disgusted by the point the discussion was ended.

I was under the impression we were here to edit, not see how much offense we could cause and how many people joined in. I appear to have been wrong. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

The remedy for speech you dont agree with is counter-speech, not "punishment." The reason for that is that the notion of "punishment" for "offending speech" is all-too-easily abused.Thelmadatter (talk) 14:30, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I meant blocking or community sanctions by "punishment". Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:51, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Potentially extremely serious BLP violations and issues of neutrality and accuracy on a range of articles to do with living members of deposed royal families

Hello - just a few days ago I happened to come across an article, I don't remember which one, about a great-grandson or something of the last Emperor of Germany which states that this living person is "His Imperial and Royal Highness Prince Somebody of Prussia" which seemed ridiculous to me as all German royal titles were abolished in 1919 and there has not even been such a place as Prussia since 1947. Looking around a little, I quickly found hundreds of such articles about living people on WP that state that so and so is the "claimant" to various abolished thrones. These articles do not give any evidence that the person himself makes such claims, the truth is that royalty buffs work out who would be "King of Hanover" now had that position not been abolished in 1866 and "style" them as such. This may seem eccentric but harmless in the case of German ex-royal families, although if the articles are not carefully phrased, they could be very misleading. However heraldry experts and genealogists etc. work out who would be King or Emperor of every ex-monarchy and label living persons as such, which is published here in articles on them. This could potentially be dangerous to some individuals of countries where there were revolutions to get rid of monarchs and a lot of people don't want them back. There are numerous issues with these articles, I have opened an RfC at Manual of Style talk on the specific issue of applying such "styles and titles" as "Her Royal Highness the Princess of Prussia" to living persons for whom such claims to abolished royal titles are made by others, please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#Use of royal "Titles and styles" and honorific prefixes in articles and templates referring to pretenders to abolished royal titles and their families. Regards,Smeat75 (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Sigh. In short, Smeat75 has apparently recently learned that the use of titles by German nobility is regulated by custom and has not official standing in German law. As usual, we base our articles in part on custom (what are these people actually called by reliable sources?) and not solely on law. (This is consistent with general practice: e.g., courtesy titles in the United Kingdom are used in official documents, which at the same time acknowledge that those titles hare bestowed only by custom and do not have legal standing.) Unfortunately, this is now progressing to the usual signs of mania: RfCs posted at many noticeboards, notices at many talk pages, forum-shopping to this page, increasingly grandiose claims of policy violation, etc. Additional opinions are, of course, welcome, although a certain terseness would be appreciated. Choess (talk) 20:52, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

...and he spammed 60 user talk pages with a message that violates WP:CANVASSING. :( -Guy Macon (talk) 21:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Only in that he gave his opinion in the notification making it a less than neutral notice, but there is no indication he picked editors only for support. I had made a BLP thread recently about an article on a subject claiming to be the King of Hawaii. My question was whether or not Wikipedia articles should be used to make claims on a throne. I also thought that the article's tone was less than encyclopedic. I am sure I was chosen based on that or my recent GA review of Charles I of England. But we have both already discussed the canvassing issue and I don't think it is enough to overshadow the issue Smeat75 raises.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:17, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I have been quite patient with him and tried to give him explanations from the real world and background history of royalty and nobility in Europe (I have some knowledge on this as I am a direct descendant of Warinus de la Strode); and some knowledge on Wikipedia policy regarding NPOV and RS and NOR. Im at the end of my tolerance for this. Unfortunately he was given some advice on his talk page to continue to try and find similar voices to his own and I think he may have misinterpreted it in a way that has caused him to violate our canvassing rules. This is quickly moving towards something that is going to need a topic ban.Camelbinky (talk) 21:16, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the original poster does raise a valid concern, and one which I think should be taken seriously. I think it would be a mistake to fail to take the concern seriously simply because it has been pressed in excessively dramatic and numerous places. It is undeniable that people sometimes use the word "pretender" and "claimant" when in fact the person in question is neither pretending nor claiming anything. And even when they are claiming something we need to be careful about what exactly they are claiming.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:44, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, the place in which I have seen him be the most persistent is at an article in which the person's noble title has been attested to in sources which show the British crown, the govt of France, and the prince of Monaco have all called him by that title. And also his wife who is a princess of Monaco and the heir apparent goes officially by HIS title, which is a title Smeat says has been abolished in Germany. One country abolishing titles in their borders does not affect the title itself as other countries can continue to acknowledge those titles. In this particular case, which concerns Hanover, the king was deposed when Prussia conquered it, any "contender" or "pretender" does not have to be affected by a law in Germany abolishing titles, because he was kicked out of his country illegally 50 years prior to the law. Hanover royalty and nobility, through its once personal union with the United Kingdom, is affected more by British law than German, descendants of Hanoverian royalty are still princes according to British law and to this day require the Queen's written approval on marrying another royal/noble for instance. If third party refers to a person as a noble or royal title in a reliable third party published source, I see no alternative but to call the person by that title or else doing otherwise is a clear violation of BLP. Have I missed something that you see otherwise?Camelbinky (talk) 18:33, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe you but it's problematic that I just have to merely believe you. Can you link to the example?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:47, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

You see, this is why I feel we need to address this concern. Being called "Your highness" or "Prince" by royalty of other nations does not mean the person has that title or style. We are being told here that, currently, all the source has to do is refer to the subject in any manner and they are encyclopedically endowed with that "official" title. Each monarchy is different, but usually there is a particular manner in which persons are granted these titles and styles and, like any position, public office etc., you would want to know that even that reliable source's term is accurate and not just repeat or parrot the inaccuracies.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:53, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

The difficulty with that approach is by what benchmark do you identify inaccuracies? Why is COMMONNAME not adequate as a guide for these cases? If we can have Screaming Lord Sutch, surely we can have Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born in 1954) (or whatever article it is we are talking about), provided that is reflected in a preponderance of sources. Formerip (talk) 19:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

It isn't a name it's a title and style granted in some fashion and with some standard. The implication is more than some fancy word before a name. Through history we can clearly see the religious implications. Many in Japan still believe the emperor is their god. Even in the UK it is believed that the Queen rules through divine right as do many monarchies. If someone was granted such there will be a reliable source with that information. Its different depending on the one location to the next, but I believe the father has to acknowledge the heir and formally grant the right to a title and style, unless granted by a higher sovereign. And that last part is probably the biggest issue, in that these titles imply sovereignty. That isn't common or implied just because many believe it to be true.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:42, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

It is clear that COMMONNAME is not really particularly helpful or applicable to people with royal or noble titles. There are clear reasons involving disambiguation, scholarly clarity, etc. that make it sensible and useful for us to title articles by more formal names in some cases. Reality is not one-size-fits-all in terms of naming conventions. (That is not to say that COMMONNAME should be completely disregarded, but that it is one of several competing concerns.) Additionally, it is also clear that titles can be legally recognized or not and still be valid in some narrower sense. We should, of course, make clear that some people with titles no longer hold them legally - it would confuse readers otherwise. But to ignore them, particularly if the subject and most media still use them, strikes me as equally mistaken. Things like recognition by other monarchs are factors to consider. Weighing up all the factors - editorial judgment - will not always be easy and will not always follow a simple formula, but can be undertaken in good faith and successfully. The specific concern that the original poster was raising is one that I share: there are sometimes enthusiasts/hobbyists who overuse the terms "pretender" and "claimant" to refer to people who are making no claim whatsoever. If someone actually is claiming a particular title, but there is some doubt about it, or there is some question about the legal status, then those terms can be fine to use. But in the past (we are sadly short on actual current examples in this discussion, I'm afraid) we have had some problems in this area.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Since the area we're talking about is essentially titles whose legitimacy is disputed, I can't see how it makes much sense to suppose we can sort things out by deciding whether a particular title is legitimate or not. The only thing we can really look to is whether it generally recognized or not. Formerip (talk) 20:35, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Mark, you made the misconception that is causing this problem- you say the titles imply sovereignty. They do not! The British monarchy claimed the title of King of France all the way up to 1801 when France became a republic. The prince of Monaco still has titles to French territory that it owns, but owns in the same way that I own my property in the USA, there is no sovereignty with the title and land. The prince happens to own property that was once associated with a FRENCH noble title, and now the nation of Monaco has taken the title for its prince even though FRANCE has abolished the same title.Camelbinky (talk) 03:30, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

The requesting of permission doesn't really have anything to do with royal status or lack thereof. It is because of the Royal Marriages Act 1772, providing that no descendent of George II (except princesses marrying into foreign families) could marry without the monarch's consent. This was really George III annoyed at his brother marrying against his will. I don't think it's been an issue since there were rumors the Queen might refuse her sister Margaret permission to marry Group Captain Peter Townsend in the Fifties. But that doesn't mean that the ex-Hanoverian royal family is recognized as royal by the UK.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Wehwalt in the official statement by the Queen, she does refer to the Hanoverian "pretender" by those very titles that those on Wikipedia claim the person does not legally have. If she recognizes him as such, then he is as such. And the govts of France and Monaco have also acknowledged his titles, in fact his wife is referred to by HIS title. How much more do you need?Camelbinky (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Elizabeth II issued the following Declaration in Council: "My Lords, I do hereby declare My Consent to a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco...". Since their marriage Monaco itself refers to Princess Caroline as being Princess Caroline of Hanover since the title of her husband ranks higher than her own, even though her title is "real" and his "is not" according to some editors in this discussion. Again, some one please tell me how you decide that it is not a BLP violation to go against a reliable source mentioning what the Queen calls this man, and which the nations of Monaco and France have both also acknowledged as his titles. As far as I'm concerned if you try to ignore calling him by these titles you are violating BLP, it is that simpleCamelbinky (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

(In response to Mark Miller above, the formatting is getting a bit confusing) Click through to the divine right article, and you'll find that it hasn't been applicable to the UK since 1688... MChesterMC (talk) 17:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I got sick of arguing about this and have not looked at this page for days, but I am very glad to see that Jimbo Wales himself thinks I have a point. Would he like to take over arguing with various users, and one in particular, who will instantly revert any indication that so-and-so is not really "HRH His Royal Highness The Prince of Somewhere that Has Not Existed for 150 Years?" or that you cannot say that this or that person is a former royal because they're not former royals just because some government passed some law? or that it absolutely cannot be allowed to make any distinction between holders of titles that are recognised by the government of their country and those that are mere "titles of pretense" as the monarchist Bible the Almanach of Gotha calls them? If someone wants to battle with the people who watchlist these articles for two years or so, I'm sure the simple point that I was trying to make, WP should distinguish between holders of titles that are currently officially recognised and those that are not,could be carried, but it will be hard work.Smeat75 (talk) 03:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

And Camelbinky I told you I was not going to try to edit that page about Ernst August any more and I have not, basically because it seems to upset you, it is not that important to me, and that is only one of hundreds, maybe thousands, of articles that present very misleading, or indeed outright false, information - "Styles and Titles -HRH The Princess of Somewhere" when there has not been an officially recognised such person for nearly a hundred years or more, all I wanted to do was put in a line like "These are titles that are sometimes used as courtesy, but are historical titles only and carry no official status", but it is absolutely not allowed.Smeat75 (talk) 03:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo says above "We should, of course, make clear that some people with titles no longer hold them legally - it would confuse readers otherwise." Would you like me to give you a list of the many articles on ex-German royals (only you are not allowed to call them that, they are not "ex" just because the government of Germany abolished royal titles, according to the royalty buffs here) that do not make that clear at all? And there is one user who will argue with you till hell freezes over that "legally" has nothing to do with it, titles are not regulated by law.I have not even looked at articles on ex-royal families of Russia, Austria, France, etc. And for an example of an article that uses "claimant",sorry Camelbinky, but please look at Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born in 1954), in the lead you will see it says he is the "claimant to the thrones of the former Kingdom of Hanover and the former Duchy of Brunswick." Does this person himself make any "claims" to the throne of Hanover (abolished 1866) or the throne of the Duchy of Brunswick (abolished 1918)? I would be insulted myself to see allegations published that I was so foolish as to make "claims" on non-existent thrones. These people are labelled as such by royalty buffs and genealogists and so forth, I do not see any evidence that they themselves make such claims. It is all a fantasy world, if people want to pretend, which is the revealing and accurate technical term used by experts in these matters, that titles that have been abolished 100 years or more still exist, I don't see why WP has to pretend along with them.Smeat75 (talk) 03:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Europeana infested with Bright Line Rule breakers?

Happy Black Friday, Jimbo! I am wondering if you saw the Wikimedia Foundation blog post from two days ago, about Wiki Loves Monuments and its sponsorship by Europeana? That got me to wanting to learn more about Europeana, so I turned to the most neutral reference I could find -- Wikipedia!

Did you know that in helping to create Wikipedia's wonderful article about Europeana, we received content assistance from the following users?

• User:N.thirlby - a single-purpose account (SPA). No way to know for sure, but could be Natasha Thirlby, a marketing and advertising professional who is a member of the LinkedIn group "Europeana".
• User:82.59.69.6 - another SPA.
• User:Raffaellasantucci - a user with a very limited range of interest on Wikipedia: Sapienza University of Rome and Europeana. Who knows, maybe this is Raffaella Santucci, who works at Sapienza University of Rome, which is a project partner with Europeana.
• User:Lhmhopwood - another SPA. Surely just a coincidence that Michael Hopwood was a contractor with "Linked Heritage". (Get it? Linked Heritage = "Lh". Michael = "m". Hopwood = "hopwood".)
• User:Aisulu Aldasheva - another SPA. We cannot be sure, but wouldn't it be weird if this user turned out to be Aisulu Aldasheva, who was working for Europeana for two years, "doing PR and editorial stuff"? I thought PR editors were not supposed to directly edit articles where they have a conflict of interest?
• User:Marcorendina - not exactly a single-purpose account, but very nearly so. Any chance that this is Marco Rendina, who headed up a Europeana Fashion project?
• User:Breandank - another SPA. Could it possibly be that this user is Breandán Knowlton, the Chief Product Officer at Europeana? Either way, welcome aboard, Breandank!
• User:Jpekel - a highly focused account, with more content contributed to the Europeana article than any other. Surely this isn't Joris Pekel, the Community Coordinator Cultural Heritage at Europeana!
• User:FernieK - in April 2013, did nothing but edit about Europeana, especially to add a citation about "CARARE". We'll never know if that's maybe Kate Fernie, the technical coordinator for the CARARE project, which was funded by Europeana.
• User:Kerstarno - an SPA who added into the Europeana article a link to the Archives Portal Europe. Strange, isn't it, how Kerstin Arnold is the Technical Coordinator of Archives Portal Europe, which acts as a domain aggregrator for Europeana?

Jimmy, is your Bright Line Rule message getting through to anyone, if even Wikimedia Foundation project sponsors can't seem to abide by your decree? Do you think maybe we should just give up on the Bright Line Rule and simply welcome users who contribute good content, regardless of their affiliation? That would seem to be the less embarrassing way forward. - 2001:558:1400:10:AC79:7A9:FAF6:9668 (talk) 17:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you finally getting around to making a substantive point? I recommend that you either complain directly to the people involved or - as you seem to think they are doing nothing wrong - adopt a different strategy. All you are doing here is convincing people of the seriousness of the problem and the importance of the Bright Line rule as a best practice. If you don't realize that, I don't know what else I can do to help you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:46, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Complaining directly to the people involved would certainly relieve you of evaluating the evidence that Bright Line Rule isn't working, wouldn't it? My point was to suggest that we simply welcome users who contribute good content, regardless of their affiliation, as I said so above. WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOTE already provide us with the necessary rule set to make Wikipedia as good as it can be at this time. If one follows those four policies and guidelines, it doesn't matter if money is changing hands, or if employees are providing content about their employer. (My point would also be coupled with abandoning your Bright Line Rule that doesn't really work, because it is too slow, doesn't provide a fair playing field against "non-paid" antagonists like disgruntled ex-employees, and isn't obeyed -- even by "insiders" who should be well-versed in Wikipedia editing norms.) However, it seems like you'll just dig in even deeper, though, stubbornly standing by your BLR that Wikipedians have failed to codify into guideline form, much less policy. Just this month we've exposed COI editing by Wikimedia Foundation sponsors, partners, and vendors by way of Europeana, Telenor, and Cooley LLP. Who knows what December will bring? Stay tuned! - 2001:558:1400:10:AC79:7A9:FAF6:9668 (talk) 20:09, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:NPOV, WP:V, are ideals; no page is perfectly neutral or perfectly verified. There are imperfections with every page, even featured articles. However, when an article is written with a serious conflict of interest, any such imperfection can reasonably be suspected as having been caused by the conflict of interest. This undermines trust. This is why the academic publishers have rejected the reasoning that serious conflicts of interest do not matter, even if content passes the normal reviewing and editing processes. Jimbo's rule keeps us within the academic mainstream, rather than holding onto a fringe position which has been completely rejected by our reliable sources for this topic. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 20:17, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe Jimmy himself and many of the Wikimedia Free Culture movement have repeatedly announced why traditional academia and traditional publishing will be going the way of the dinosaur. Yet, here you are saying that we should adopt the rationale of "academic publishers" to define how Wikipedia operates? How quaint! - 2001:558:1400:10:AC79:7A9:FAF6:9668 (talk) 20:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not referring to just traditional academia. All academia, including the non-traditional outfits such as the reputable open-access journals maintain high standards in this regard. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 20:30, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Now you're just cracking us up. That was a good one, though! - 2001:558:1400:10:AC79:7A9:FAF6:9668 (talk) 20:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I think you should leave it to Mr. Wales if he wants to hat this conversation. I just wanted to add that if there are any issues with the Bright Line Rule, they are complicated by the absence of a specific policy prohibiting such conduct, as well as widespread acceptance of such editing by many experienced Wikipedia editors and by administrators. Coretheapple (talk) 21:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I suspect a lot of the "acceptance" has to do with knowing how it would be impossible to enforce, particularly given the entrenched policies that would make it nearly impossible to do so. Frankly I'm surprised that the original post above hasn't been revdeleted or oversighted because it more or less violates the OUTING policy. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 23:00, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Sue Gardner weighed in on that very point on the Conflict of Interest Limit talk page. I thought her post was quite good, albeit a bit in the "too little, too late" department. As far as the article is concerned, I think the COI tag is potentially problematic and I've raised the issue on the COI noticeboard. I agree that the article has issues, but would be happier if the issue had been raised in a different manner by this IP editor. Coretheapple (talk) 23:47, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

LilyPond also infested

Also looking back two days ago to another Wikimedia Foundation blog post, there is mention of a Wikimedia extension that "utilizes the free music-engraving program LilyPond". What better place to learn about LilyPond than Wikipedia, where the #1 contributor to that article (with over 19x more edits than the next-closest editor) is User:Pnorcks? His user page proudly proclaims, :"Hi! I'm here to improve the LilyPond page and to update release versions when appropriate.

Some other ways I am involved with LilyPond:

Maintaining PKGBUILD scripts (Arch Linux) for the development and git versions: [1], [2].

Reporting bugs.

Fixing bugs.

Tracking regressions.

General source code maintenance.

Improving the SVG backend [3].

Reporting bugs for the installer builder, GUB [4].

Check out LilyPond if you're interested in music typesetting.

It would be too snarky to ask if Wikimedia Foundation ever aligns itself with an organization that hasn't been exercising conflict-of-interest editing, so I won't ask that. - 2001:558:1400:10:AC79:7A9:FAF6:9668 (talk) 20:49, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Uh oh... it would appear that "Pnorcks" in other areas of the Internet is one Patrick McCarty. Isn't it strange how Wikipedia's article about LilyPond prominently features a musical score by Patrick McCarty, uploaded by Pnorcks? - 2001:558:1400:10:AC79:7A9:FAF6:9668 (talk) 20:54, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

It's strange that a person volunteered his time to develop an open-source program and helped integrate it into MediaWiki software and also helped write the Wikipedia page? I think you are confused about what a conflict of interest is. This is no more a conflict of interest then someone who runs a Jane Austen reading group writing the article Jane Austen. There are no two interests which conflict. He's not given any tangle benefits by anyone to write on or promote LilyPond. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if you know how foolish you sound, Atethnekos; but let me quote you the very first lines of the WP:COI guideline:

A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia to promote your own interests...

So, have you looked at the LilyPond article? I have. I see it failing the above "aim of Wikipedia" on several counts. Is the article neutral? I suppose it's close to being neutral, but it is apparent that the authors of this article painstakingly point out several beneficial features of the software, but there is not a single criticism or limitation of the software expressed. For example, one of the sources used as a reference in the article says of LilyPond, "The user doesn’t get the instant visual feedback that they would see with a graphical interface", but there is no mention of this in the Wikipedia article. Likewise the reviewer's comment, "the disadvantage that it is much harder to read, but what really bothered me was how long it took me to type all the notes", is not assessed in the Wikipedia article. So, the net result is that we really don't have a neutral article right now, and we can probably blame the COI editor for that.

Next, is the article reliably sourced? There are 21 sources referenced. Sixteen of them (76%) point to the LilyPond website, or to the related GNU project pages. Neither of these sites are the independent, third-party, objective publications that we would typically look for. The remaining 5 sources are to GitHub and a couple of rather obscure-looking document-sharing sites dedicated to code development, it appears. Which leads me to ask, has LilyPond ever been covered in any level of detail in any mainstream publication, and if so, why hasn't it been included in the article here? (FYI, there are several sources that could be used, but they haven't.) So, on this count of "reliable sources", I would say that the current article mostly fails, and we can probably blame the COI editor for that.

Finally, has the primary editor of the article "promote <his> own interests"? Without question! There were plentiful musical scores that he could have used as an example of LilyPond scripting, but he selected a composition of his own. That puts his own promotion before the goals of the Wikipedia project to produce a neutral encyclopedia. If you're not able to see that, then you're probably blinded by the "free culture" movement's objectives, which itself is a form of bias. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 21:55, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry that I look so foolish. I can definitely say that I've not been blinded by the objectives of a movement of which I've never been a part, however. I agree, the article is not neutral. I don't see how it is a matter of COI, however. This user receives no tangible benefits in relation to LilyPond or an example composition to demonstrate LilyPond output. The "interest" in "conflict of interest" does not refer to just any interest that a person has in a topic. A user is a fan of Jane Austen and submits corrigenda to editions of Jane Austen. That doesn't mean that such a user has a conflict of interest for the topic of Jane Austen. A user who is a fan of LilyPond and submits fixes to versions of LilyPond, is a perfectly analogous case. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I take a dimmer view of this sort of editing than you do, Atethnekos, but agree that it is not a canonical case of the kind of editing that the Bright Line Rule as a best practice is designed to cover. The editor in question does not have a specifically financial conflict of interest, and therefore falls into a different category of advocate.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Jimmy, how do you know that the editor does not have a specifically financial conflict of interest? Have you investigated his paid occupation and ruled out how LilyPond promotion might enhance his career? For example, someone might use the LilyPond platform as a way to advertise one's self as an "SVG guru", and then participate heavily in a Linux project relating to SVG fonts, and that project may directly benefit his work at Intel, his paying employer. In response to Atethnekos above, I would say there's a big difference between a paid computer code developer working on Wikipedia articles about Jane Austen, and a paid computer code developer working on Wikipedia articles about computer code. Totally in agreement that the LilyPond example is not the worst we've seen in a while (that distinction would probably go to the Wikimedia Norway trustee using Wikipedia to enhance the reputation of his telecommunications company while simultaneously deprecating the articles about his company's competitors); but if we're not on the look-out for COI in our own backyard, and we're ready to say "it's not so bad, because it's a volunteer writing about a non-profit subject", then what's to stop Bill Gates from editing the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, or to stop you from editing the article about Wikimedia Foundation? A Bright Line Rule shouldn't have such exceptions, even if to avoid the appearance' of a problematic conflict of interest. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 13:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I can't be certain, of course. But it's highly unlikely. And I think you're going one step too far if you really think that it is problematic for a paid computer code developer to write articles about computer code. That's nonsense and destroys the entire concept of "conflict of interest". But certainly it is a conflict of interest (though unlikely to be a financial one) for a volunteer coder working on an open source project to write about that project. There are very good reasons why Bill Gates shouldn't edit the Gates Foundation article, even though it is extremely unlikely to bring him any noticeable financial benefit - that's grasping at straws. Here's the point I'm making: different kinds of problems are different. Zealots writing about their favorite subject in a biased manner is a problem - a big one - but a different one from professional PR firms engaging in unethical behavior. Open source advocates/coders writing about things they are involved with is a problem - probably not a big one, but a problem - but is also different from professional PR firms engaging in unethical behavior. It's important to draw these distinctions and to outlaw the obviously wrong things, without getting to confused and bothered about borderline cases or that our work won't solve all problems at once.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

If it's sensible to say that a paid computer code developer can be welcome to write articles about computer code, then maybe it's time we happily say that it's sensible for a paid encyclopedist to be welcome to write encyclopedia articles. Several of the paid editing services out there are not really PR firms at all. They are quite simply skilled writers of encyclopedia articles who (when you get right down to it) don't really have a vested interest in the subject matter. They're just looking to create a wholly acceptable encyclopedia article, get paid for their research and writing skills, then move on to the next client. Somebody above said that WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOTE are enough to keep Wikipedia on the right track. I agree. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 04:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

A bureaucratic nightmare

Does it never amaze you that we have used your concept and created red tape here of a depth and complexity that would never have been envisaged by even the most totalitarian regime? We have done it on purpose and by consensus. We have created what is probably the world's most complicated ants nest.

We must deserve this because we have done it ourselves, and we seek, sometimes, to create ever more layers of complexity and ever more rules for the unwary to trip over.

Am I the only person who is amazed at all of this? Perhaps this is one of those perennial questions! Fiddle Faddle 11:41, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:IAR and WP:BOLD may bring you some happiness. Additionally, whatever we have made, we can unmake. Is there a particular rule that's bothering you today?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:48, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo IAR and Bold are dead policies. The only times their used are by admins and if some new editor uses them their blocked without hesitation. RFA is a nightmare, new users avoid Wikipedia even for research needs, abusive admins and POV editors are entrenched and can't be removed and the list goes on. The community is completely incapbale of doing anything even resembling meaningful change and the WMF has completely mishandled the implementation and development of changes. Need I say more, the list goes on. Wikipedia is a ship without a captain. The ones at the helm have no vision, their own agenda and no ability to think past their own petty needs. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 14:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

There's an interesting dynamic. When people gain experience they become more aware of the folly around them. At first they think the world must be going to hell, but eventually they realize that the folly has been there all along. Please don't worry too much about Wikipedia. It hasn't gotten worse; you've just become more perceptive or more informed. Jehochman ^Talk 17:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe WP has encountered a great deal of entropy: where there was once seemingly order in the eyes of the "old-school" editors, the is now seemingly disorder. However, a newer editor may still see order. Too bad WP:ENTROPY is a red link; I would enjoy reading that essay. Perspective plays a large part, too -- as does adaptability. Rgrds. --64.85.214.13 (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually I am well aware of the ups and downs of Wikipedia and in almost every way Wikipedia was better 5 years ago than it is today with the exception of volume of content. People wanted to work together and formed projects with the goal of improvement through collaboration, now almost all of those projects are dead because the majority of the editors who wanted to work together have been driven from the project. The ones that remain have either become admins or are only interested in staying quietly in the corner and not drawing attention. RFA has become a nonproductive joke, almost every admin was promoted more than 5 years ago and almost every admin area is backlogged, some for months and some only survive because of the dedication of one or 2. If they leave, that's it. Arbcom and Arb enforcement are a joke where acceptance of a case means guilt; the WMF keeps trying to thrust broken and underdeveloped changes on the community because even they recognize the community is incapable of doing anything about it (although Visual Editor was a quasi exception to that) and the community has become so under control by abusive admins and editors that most are afraid to come out of the shadows for fear of being banned. Even admin and long term editors are leaving or being banned; 900 out of 1400 admins are largely inactive and there is no end in sight. Wikipedia is failing and its up to Jimbo whether he wants to go ahead and keep ignoring the problem and enjoying the fame or do something about all these problems and act. As it is it appears to me andn probably others as well that Jimbo is trying to distance himself from the project before it fails so it doesn't tarnish his good name. That way he can say I passed on all my powers years ago. Its not my fault. Its no secret that Wikipedia is just an advertisement for the for profit Wikia and the Wikimedia software. But it would be nice if this free advertisement didn't disappear from the earth do to benign neglect. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 18:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)[rant mode] Ah, it is no particular rule. We have admins, who ought to act only as if they have mops and buckets, but some of whom act as if they are more important than some minor deity. We have bureaucrats, and the term itself is astounding anyway. There are stewards, clerks, smurfs... wait, not smurfs... noticeboards where if you choose the wrong one for a problem all you get is a snarky "Not this one" but where no-one places the issue on the right one because of the smurfs... ah no, no smurfs. We have mediators, welcomers, editor retainers, article rescuers, and countless committees. And we have ArbCom who seem almost to equate to Lord Voldemort in that naming ArbCom on anyone's talk page in an discussion context is seen as a threat, and we leave for the Wikimines, never to reappear.

No, no rules irk me particularly. I am simply commenting on the great edifice, constructed in East German architecture from the grim period, (no, not the Brothers Grimm). How did we end up with this enormous and complex load of stuff to assist with(?) the construction of a simple encyclopaedia? Why did we design this? Who actually volunteered for it?

We have more systems to control us that to write articles and we have created them!

So, yes. Let's undo it, most of it! This one must be broken because editors are leaving in droves? [/rant mode] Fiddle Faddle 18:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

and your not alone Fiddle Faddle. There are lots of editors who feel that Wikipedia has lost its way but the culture that we have developed here is also one that stygmatizes anyone who dares question the regime. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 19:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Re red tape and complexity - Sue Gardner made an astute observation that our very flat organizational structure is conducive to a proliferation of policies, guidelines and essays, while not making it easy to do an overhaul which would affect multiple areas simultaneously. I once considered an overhaul of our advice regarding copyright, and it was a project just to identify all that we have to say on the subject. Overhaul would require either massive collaboration or authority from a non-existent editorial board to streamline the material. I think her observation was on-target, and will require some significant changes to our structure if we want to address the red tape bloat.

Re IAR this is a good example of a meta rule that ought to be used less frequently over time, if we are doing our job. The rule allowed us to address situation where either the written rules were silent, or worse, suggested a course of action that was counter-productive. As we fill in the gaps, and modify rules to better address situations, there as fewer and fewer situations when IAR would be needed. The reduction is a sign of things working well, not a sign of failure.

Re RFA - while the process has some know problems, calling it a "nightmare" is not accurate. If it really was a nightmare, more editors would be supporting formation of a Wikiproject to do a comprehensive study of issues, and present reform ideas in an organized way. --S Philbrick(Talk) 19:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually the statement that RFA is a nightmare has been stated repeatedly by a multitude of admins and editors. Even Jimbo has stated as such multiple times in the past so IMO that particular observation has been affirmed. In regards to the statements by Sue, that was a few years ago and its even more true now than it was then. What we have now is a culture where the most entrenched editors survive. Even once flourishing projects like military history are seeing steep declines in participation. I do agree that it would take action to change but that could occur in a multitude of ways, not the least of which is for the WMF to step up and establish some changes that would make this project viable although given their recent history the last couple years, involvement by them frieghtens me. As I stated above, no one there has any visions to make this project viable and sustainable. To do that we need a multiple of changes in multiple areas concurrently. RFA, article development, policy and we need to establish a group with the authority to police the admins. Overreaching and underdeveloped software like Visual editor and flow are not the answers. If the culture and policy drive people out or keep them from coming to edit then all the software in the world won't fix it. When this community starts doing something to address the admin abuses and destructive editors and wikiprojects then a step will be made in the right direction. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Regime was mentioned. But we are the regime. We love to apply rules. The rulebook grants us the authority and power over others. The Wisdom of Crowds creates lynch law and posses. We even style them with names. We have deletionists, inclusionists, and otherists. We have smurfs. Damn, no, we have no smurfs. We have elections. We have votes that are !votes and yet other votes that are votes. We form, laugh at, and spit in the eye of consensus. We are civilly obscenely rude to others. We pillory people and then pillory the people who pillory the people who pilloried the people. And we do this in a caring and sharing way. This is a mixture of Lord of the Rings and Lord of the Flies. And yet we can correct this, if we choose. Except,when we attempt it, those who are empowered by the rules choose that we may not form new rules, or may not repeal old rules. Fiddle Faddle 21:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Here is a little video with the smurfs and what the culture here in Wikipedia is like to new editors and non admins...300 Smurfs. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 21:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Timtrentl, who I believe has hit upon the primary reason we are losing editors. I disagree with him when he says that the entire community supports this state of affairs, as I certainly don't. One cannot be creative and innovative in this kind of environment. People who want to play lawyer or politician should do it elsewhere. We should focus more on research and teaching each other how to break down barriers, not build them. This is especially true when trying to unify all knowledge across every disparate discipline into a coherent whole. Unfortunately, most either don't get this or are actively working to build walls between other editors and the ideas they work with in the articles. Viriditas (talk) 23:34, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Then it is time to change it, potentially suddenly and brutally. Things need to be ripped away. But the Wisdom of Crowds has been unleashed, and crowd behaviour is very different from individual behaviour. You want change, so does 'the community' but then consensus looms and we find that the most articulate usually prevails, at least sometimes, and sways the floating folk into their way of thinking. And building consensus is fun and often biased. Yes, the community supports change, but not as much as it supports the status quo. And the juggernaut rolls on, steered by no-one because it is steered by all. Except that 'all' really means the vociferous few who can be bothered to join in and steer. We consent to be governed by consensus even when we disagree, and thus we must adhere to its rules, and we do. And we do it more tenaciously than we adhere to laws in life. Which of us who drives a car or rides a motorcycle is not a habitual criminal by breaking the speed limit? Here we do not break it. Why? Because everyone is a policeman here. "That was your third reversion, Jenkins Minor. It's a block for you next. There are preventative, not punitive, you know." And so they are, until the block extends and extends and then is indefinite.

Yes, it is time to change; but what to change? Do we remove a load of admins? If so, why? WHat about some of the committees? Does ArbCom go? Why, if so? It is useful, isn't it? It serves a purpose designed by consent and consensus. Ah, let's kill off something useless, then. Only they are all useful. And so it goes.

If retention of editors is important then why do we have this enormous set of rules, guidelines, processes, and people who seem to be important in some way. Jimbo, you aren't important here, by your own choice, and you kicked this whole thing off, so why is it that others seem to be?

Or am I mistaken in this set of rants? Fiddle Faddle 23:54, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Like—Smurfs at last ... and Fiddle Faddle's last comment ["Regime was mentioned. But we are the regime..."] seems to be evolving from ranting to poetic prose— Like

As my own disillusionment from the PR of glossy professed egalitarian ideals to the 'better wear hip waders and have a HAZMAT suit at hand' realities of Wikipedia editing around litigious often obtuse bureaucratic cesspools of Vogon excrement and petty militant tyranny was kinda' harsh—I'm now careful not to recommend en.Wikipedia editing to anyone without extensive warnings and caveats.

What is portrayed and professed seems to me to differ greatly from actual practice and procedure at this point. One comes traipsing in merrily wearing the rose colored glasses they've been issued at the gate only to find at some point that their last turn on the path has brought them into a gladiatorial ring horribly underdressed. Massive gaps between de jure and de facto. Perhaps some consideration should be given to amending what is professed in the first place as this may prove more readily achievable than shifting cultural attitudes and community practice. Things wouldn't necessarily be any more pleasant day-to-day but at least they'd be more honest and new editors would have some idea of what to expect.

For instance 'Ignore All Rules' could be downgraded from the 'Five Pillars' as at this point bringing the term "context" into a discussion is generally greeted with blank glazed looks after which folks swiftly release a new wave of WP:[Insert Acronym Here] links many of which themselves contain context dependent caveats which are routinely ignored by those citing them. In present practice rules and guidelines are cited as laws and commandments regardless of assertions that the ideal should be otherwise. WikiLawyering seems to have become the norm. I suggest that we discuss changing the ideals to meet the practice.

At the very least we should come out of the experience having had a good collective look in the mirror.

--Kevjonesin (talk) 00:10, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Ah, Kevjonesin, You mean "Welcome to Gladiatorpedia, where the last editor standing may prevail and then turn out the lights"?

If what we have today is what was intended, or even expected when it was initiated, then it is a huge and successful social experiment. But I cherish the thought that the environment here is not as was wished by our founder when he thought of the scheme. I polish that thought, sometimes, and this thread is my attempt to polish it in public. Fiddle Faddle 00:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

What a nice sentiment. I'd be interested to hear Jimbo and others who 'helped start the ball rolling' reflect upon it. --Kevjonesin (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

External criticism: "Wikipedia’s Obamacare article continues to knowingly and deliberately include false information"

Here's an excerpt. The actual essay contains numerous examples and sources, and is much too long to post here in full:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3096941/posts

Wikipedia’s Obamacare article continues to knowingly and deliberately include false information

Wikipedia’s Obamacare article still includes a substantial amount of false information. Suggestions to correct this, with many reliable sources, have been repeatedly posted on the article’s talk page, but the comments were erased, and the editors who made these comments were banned.

So we know that it is not an accident that wikipedia contains false information about Obamacare. It is a deliberate action on the part of Obama supporters. They saw the comments on the talk page about how to correct the article, but they knowingly and deliberately chose to continue keeping the false information in the article.

All of these things, with reliable sources, have been mentioned on the article’s talk page several times. But the Obama supporters almost always erase those comments, and ban the editors who suggested them.

It is not an accident, or a mistake, or an error, that Wikipedia’s Obamacare article contains false information. Instead, the Obama supporters at wikipedia are deliberately and knowingly including false information in the article.

Plokws76 (talk) 23:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Have you checked whether the assertions made by the blogger you quote are correct? For example, are pro-Obama comments and sources generally erased from the talk page? If so, can you give us some diffs of this happening? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

From what I know of Free Republic, I think we can safely discard and ignore their complaints. I'd also be willing to wager that the redlink that posted this is either a sock of Grundle2600 or is acting as a meatpuppet. Resolute 03:41, 1 December 2013 (UTC)