Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

Requests for enforcement

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Abd

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Abd

User requesting enforcement

MastCell ^Talk 00:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Abd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley#Abd editing restriction (existing disputes):

Abd is prohibited from participating in discussion of any dispute in which he is not one of the originating parties, unless approved by his mentor(s). This includes, but is not limited to, article talk and user talk pages, the administrator noticeboards, and any formal or informal dispute resolution. He would be allowed to vote or comment at polls.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[1]: Offers statement at arbitration case in which he is uninvolved (note his absence from the extensive list of named parties). Uses the forum to rehash an old dispute against a large group of editors.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Asked to remove his comment here. Responds here.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

The ArbCom case suggests blocks as a remedy. I would prefer simply removing the violating statement and counseling Abd to adhere to his editing restrictions.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I anticipate a tortured explanation from Abd about how he is "involved" in this dispute. Also note that in response to this violation, GoRight (talk · contribs) has offered himself as an informal "mentor" and retroactively excused Abd's participation ([2]). This appears to me to be a transparently silly attempt to skirt the letter of the remedy while dragging its spirit into a dark alley and beating it to death, but YMMV. MastCell ^Talk 00:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[3]

Discussion concerning Abd

Statement by Abd

No disruptive intention existed. I was indeed involved in the climate change dispute, as can be seen by the evidence referred to on my Talk page, that's just a fact, not wikilawyering. I appreciate MastCell's effort to avoid disruption, and if the statement filed with the RfAr is disruptive, I'd certainly defer to the judgment of a clerk or an arbitrator. I have no intention of further comment on this case unless requested by an arbitrator, or the case is opened and the matter of my permission to participate is resolved in some way. GoRight and I had previously discussed mentorship, before the present case was ever filed. I'm a little surprised, though, that MastCell would file this AE case so quickly, I'd have thought that more disruptive than what already existed, and I asked Mathsci to refrain from further posting to my talk page precisely to avoid useless argument. But if MastCell personally considers the Arbcomm statement itself disruptive, he's welcome to remove the comment, and I presume a clerk or arbitrator would adjudicate that. I won't personally contest it, and, if blocked, will not put up an unblock template, or at least not immediately. --Abd (talk) 01:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Violating an ArbCom restriction is disruptive. You have habitually tested the boundaries of the various editing restrictions under which you've been placed, with much resultant drama, which is why I think it best to resolve this straightaway. I do consider the ArbCom statement disruptive; with your assent given above, I will remove it. Assuming that is the end of things, I don't see the need for further action here.

As far as formal mentorship, I don't see any provision for that in the ArbCom decision. The mentorship proposals were voted down, with many Arbs expressing the opinion that they would be ineffective in your situation. As such, if you have any plans to cite a mentor when violating this editing restriction in the future, please clear that mentorship with ArbCom ahead of time. Having a close compatriot declare himself your informal "mentor" and excuse violations of your editing restrictions seems inappropriate. MastCell ^Talk 01:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Abd

Abd has not so far been involved in editing WP articles on climate change, or their talk pages. In the diff provided above by MastCell, Abd writes on his talk page that he is "involved" in climate change, but only in his private life and thoughts, not yet on wikipedia. That kind of statement is unhelpful and disruptive. A claimed wikifriendship with GoRight (talk · contribs) cannot be used to justify contravening the current ArbCom editing restrictions. He seems to be testing the limits of his ArbCom restrictions within the first 3 weeks that they came into force (after his 3 month ban was lifted on Dec 13th). Mathsci (talk) 01:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Appears to be moot now, apart from Abd's current claims that GoRight (talk · contribs) is his official mentor. Mathsci (talk) 01:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Damn! Keep seeing stuff. Might even be better to be blocked. I was quite involved with editing Global warming, and in disputes over it and administrative actions with respect to it. Easy to establish, Mathsci is simply making assertions without knowing the facts. My involvement with GoRight stemmed from evidence gathered at RfC/GoRight, where he originally considered me a hostile party. But, in gathering the evidence and presenting it, I uncovered the situation that the current RfAr is about. It's not a new situation, it's been going on for years. I did attempt to edit Global warming Very difficult, with a set of editors owning it. I worked on an RfC in article talk space, etc. --Abd (talk) 01:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I refer all involved to the actual text of Abd's editing restriction, found here:

"Abd is prohibited from participating in discussion of any dispute in which he is not one of the originating parties, unless approved by his mentor(s). This includes, but is not limited to, article talk and user talk pages, the administrator noticeboards, and any formal or informal dispute resolution. He would be allowed to vote or comment at polls."

The text of the resolution clearly states that Abd may participate as long as his mentors approve. Even at the time it had been suggested that I might fill such a role for him. Until he makes a more formal declaration in selecting a mentor, I have agreed to fulfill that function. Taking due consideration of not only his involvement in my RfC which covers almost exactly this same topic area as well as the same participants, I believe that Abd has also made edits to GW pages himself so I fail to see how one can argue that he is not involved. Therefore I have consented to his participation. --GoRight (talk) 02:11, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I don't think Abd's selection of mentors is solely up to him - the community must have a say there as well. I would strongly oppose you as a mentor to Abd, not least because he needs someone neutral to mentor him, not someone who he has been shown to give a large amount of support to in previous disputes. You may well consent to him commenting, but put your mentorship to the community and see what they say. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 02:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I strongly object to you being a mentor as I now realise the mentorship came after your RfC. I'll be contacting Abd shortly (in the morning) to tell him that he needs a mentor approved by the community. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 02:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

What does the timing of my RfC have to do with anything? As for community or arbcom approval of his mentors I see nothing in the decision that requires this. In fact, at least as far as the arbcom approval is concerned that was explicitly defeated. Even so, Abd has made no official declaration of who his mentor or mentors might be in the long term. I am only accepting that role on an interim basis until a more formal arrangement can be made. --GoRight (talk) 02:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Ryan and GoRight) Abd edited the GW pages themselves in October 2008 [4]. However, in July 2008, before editing any GW page, he participated in Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/GoRight to defend GoRight, and he made two userpages arguing in favor of GoRight's edits in GW pages and against WMC's edits: User:Abd/GoRight and User:Abd/GoRightRFC. I think that GoRight shouldn't be Abd's mentor due to all this previous involvement. Mentors are supposed to be uninvolved parties that can help the mentoree to overcome his problems, and this doesn't seem to be the case. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:21, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Um... before anyone declares themselves a formal "mentor", this should probably be clarified with ArbCom. A lot of the mentorship language in the decision was speculative. As it turned out, a majority of Arbs voted down all of the mentorship proposals because they considered Abd's difficulties not amenable to mentorship. That should be cleared up before anyone starts "authorizing" Abd to violate his editing restrictions, and even before the choice of mentor is debated. MastCell ^Talk 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately for that analysis, a majority of Arbs voted for a remedy that includes a mentorship provision, without specifying how a mentor may be appointed. At present, it does look like you're asking for enforcement of that restriction, which Abd is not breaching because of the permission of his mentor. Whether or not the appointment of a particular mentor is appropriate remains only a matter of each person's individual opinion, since we have no guidance on that. I would strongly suggest you suspend this request for enforcement and instead file a request for clarification on that that remedy. It's not our place to second-guess what Arbcom's intentions were when they agreed the wording of the restriction. --RexxS (talk) 05:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Actually when ArbCom voted, they voted against any kind of mentorship for Abd 2 and 2.1, voluntary or involuntary. The drafting of the final decision (by Stephen Bain) was not as careful as it could have been. This was pointed out on the talk pages of the ArbCom case, but the corresponding minor correction to the editing restriction was not made before the final version was posted. Only narrow wikilawyering would ignore the two votes of ArbCom against mentorship. From his actions here and his statements since his unblock, it seems Abd is still gaming the system and is deliberately refusing to understand ArbCom's intent. There was no agreed proposal for Abd to have a mentor, no matter how much Abd tries to twist ArbCom's statements. Other wikipedians will also note the irony of Abd accepting as his mentor an offer from an WP:SPA with hardly any namespace editing experience (< 600 edits to articles, 12% of his contributions), himself under a community topic ban. It's fairly easy to get a clarification in case the interpretation of the editing restrictions continues to be challenged. Mathsci (talk) 06:28, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Abd

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Request concerning Nickhh, Nishidani, and Nableezy

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'

User requesting enforcement

--Epeefleche (talk) 16:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Users against whom enforcement is requested

• Nickhh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Diff of notice [5]
• Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Diff of notice [6]
• Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Diff of notice [7]

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria

• Nickhh: "placed under an editing restriction indefinitely. He is prohibited from editing any article in the area of conflict, commenting on any talk page attached to such an article, or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles."[8]
• Nishidani: same as Nickhh, immediately above.[9]
• Nableezy: Nableezy's ban arose separately. Originally, on October 29—"per the provisions of this remedy of the Palestine-Israel articles arbitration case, ... banning ... for 4 months from editing all pages (including both article and article talk pages) within those topic areas which relate to the Palestine-Israel articles case."[10]

Then Nableezy's ban was reduced on November 3, as follows—"I have included in the sanction on Nableezy all articles within the subject area in question.... I am adjusting my initial sanction... The ban on editing article content is reduced from six months to two; and the ban on editing article talk pages is reduced to one. These times are relative to the initial sanction".[11]

Background

Despite their I-P conflict topic-bans, Nickhh and Nishidani actively participated in an AfD discussion regarding Jonathan Cook, a freelance journalist whose notability arises (as is clear from the first sentence of his article) from his writing on the I-P conflict.

Nishidani left his comments up for 7 days. Only crossing them out a few hours before the AfD closed (w/the accurate edit summary: "Striking out comment written in breach of my ban, as indeed I should have when this was first complained of").[12] This was IMHO willful flouting of his ban with intent to influence the AfD. Nishidani also said at the Request for Clarification that the reason he weighed in was because the vote at the time was "in favour of deletion". That reflects his desire to influence the outcome of the AfD, which—mildly speaking—he was not allowed to do.

And Nickhh left his AfD comments up for the entire course of the AfD, never striking them out.

Multiple participants in the AfD voiced concern that this violated their topic ban,[13][14] and removed the banned users’ comments from the AfD.[15][16][17] The banned users' comments were re-inserted into the AfD; more than once by Nableezy, who was himself subject to a similar topic ban, arising from a different Arbitration Enforcement.[18] Nableezy even went so far as to delete my questions—as to the appropriateness of banned editors commenting—from the AfD page,[19] insisting on moving them to the AfD's discussion page, without my permission,[20] and refusing to restore them or allow me to restore them.

Nickhh and Nishidani themselves acknowledged that their participation was questionable (e.g., Nickhh: “I wonder if I'm allowed to say anything here, given the topics the man tends to write about”[21]; Nishidani: “Yes, technically we should keep out of it.”[22]

At the Request for Clarification on this matter, the arbitrators unanimously indicated that the banned editors violated their bans.[23]

Arb Vassanya made clear that this applied not only to the Nickhh/Nableezy topic ban, but also to the Nishidani topic ban ("Neither topic ban makes an exception for discussing unrelated issues on related pages. They are prohibitions on editing related pages. Full stop."). However, the matter is confused a bit by the fact that apparently (however the Nishidani ban may appear to me and to the arbitrators on its face), the banning admin did not view it the way we did, and at a concurrent WP:AE on the same facts, which took place as the arbitrators were taking the above position, enforcement was declined.[24] I'm therefore uncertain whether as to Nableezy, despite the arbitrators' above clarification, the matter is now moot as to whether Nableezy violated his ban, or whether it is appropriate to consider sanctions against him for violating his ban. In any event, among Nableezy's edits were repeated insertions of clearly banned editors' comments into the AfD, as is reflected in the below diffs. He thereby facilitated violations of their ban. Finally, he edited the AfD page as early as November 28, which was clearly a violation of his ban, even under the most generous interpretation. I leave the determination as to whether it is appropriate to sanction Nableezy completely to the arbitrators closing admin, without expressing a strong view.

It is important to note, btw, that Nableezy's Palestine-Israel articles ban was only reduced after arguments and testimonials about him were made by the very same two editors who were already banned from commenting on any community discussions related to the I/P conflict—Nickhh and Nishidani! See [25], [26], [27], and [28]. I believe this constitutes another series of violations of their ban.

Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so

1. [29] Nickhh at AfD
2. [30] Nickhh at AfD
3. [31] Nickhh at AfD
4. [32] Nishidani at AfD
5. [33] Nishidani at AfD
6. [34] Nableezy reinserting banned editor's (Nickhh's) comments on November 28
7. [35] Nableezy reinserting banned editors' (Nickhh's and Nishidani's) comments
8. [36] Nableezy at AfD
9. [37] Nableezy at AfD
10. [38] Nableezy removing others' comments at AfD
11. [39] Nableezy reinserting comments of banned editor (Nickhh) into AfD
12. [40] Nableezy deleting my comments (and others' responses) from AfD (and moving them to discussion page)
13. [41] Nableezy deleting my comments (and others') from AfD
14. [42] Nableezy reinserting comments of banned editor (Nickhh) into AfD
15. [43] Nableezy commenting at AfD
16. [44] Nableezy commenting at AfD as to why his comments and those of the other banned editors were appropriate
17. [45] Nableezy insertion at AfD talk page of material he deleted from AfD
18. [46] Nableezy at AfD talk page

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Per Arbitrators' discretion. But i It would seem that the only thing left with Nickhh and Nishidani, as their topic ban is already indefinite, would be to for some period enlarge the scope of their ban beyond that of the I/P issue.

As to Nishidani, it may well be enough, if sanction is appropriate (and if this is the correct place to pursue it), for a temporal extension of his ban from the I/P issue.

Additional comments

The basis for this enforcement is set forth in the arbitrators' responses to a Request for Clarification on the conduct at issue here.

---

At the Request for Clarification, Nishidani wrote: "If you think my ban should extend beyond the I/P area, to elsewhere, I won't object. Indeed, it would be logical"; and "I ... expressed my readiness to suffer any further sanction an arbiter might wish to impose on me for my egregious lapse"; and "I expressed my guilt and readiness to be punished"; and "I've waited to be banned from all wiki articles ... I suggest the way to stop this bickering is to act immediately and extend my perma-ban."[47]

And Nickhh wrote:

"I don't think anyone's claiming that relevant AfD pages - in principle - are not covered by the topic ban as worded. I'm certainly not, and agree that they pretty clearly would be."[48]

The pertinent language at the Request for Clarification from arb Vassanya (w/whom arbs Bainer, Wizardman, and Risker agreed) was:

"AfD discussions about IP-related articles quite clearly falls under "participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles". There is no grey area. An AfD is about as perfect of an example as you get for a "community discussion substantially concerned with such articles".... Shifting discussion over to user talk pages or other venues is at bare minimum a gross violation of the spirit of a topic ban. ... As far as I'm concerned, the confusion here is only arising from splitting hairs and trying to look for grey areas where they do not exist. The topic bans are perfectly clear and AfD is unquestionably included even in a strict reading of the sanction language.... "[A]ll pages ... which relate" seems to make the scope inclusive and clear in a similar fashion. Neither topic ban makes an exception for discussing unrelated issues on related pages. They are prohibitions on editing related pages. Full stop."[49]

And arb Carcharoth (w/whom arb Wizardman agreed) wrote:

"When someone is given a topic ban in a particular area, they are meant to move away from that topic area...If... an editor shows an inability to move away from a topic area, then sanctions should be enforced.... The normal response would be to either extend the topic ban (if it is not already indefinite), or to move on to harsher sanctions."[50]

And arb Coren (w/whom arb Wizardman agreed) wrote:

"Agreed with my colleagues; an AfD discussion of an article within the topic area definitely and unambiguously falls into that topic area. The only case where I would consider any ambiguity is if the topic ban specifically excluded talk pages or was explicitly limited to articles; and even then it could be argued that a discussion about deletion is too "close" to the topic ban to be confortable."[51]

--Epeefleche (talk) 21:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

• Reply to Nickhh—Yes, readers are encouraged, if they like, to read the full 47 quotes and diffs I provided, as all have been truncated for purposes of brevity. The links are provided at each quote or diff, or in the preceding text. Furthermore, while Nickhh made points at the Clarification which he repeats here, the arbs responded emphatically as indicated above. As to timing, it seemed logical to raise this AE only after the Clarification was closed, which is what was promptly done. As DGG mentions below, he indicated that AE would be the appropriate next step. As to points raised regarding other editors, as to whom I am completely unfamiliar, that would appear to be irrelevant to the proper treatment of violation bans in the Cook AfD—the subject of this AE. Finally, the arbs did not think the ban violations were at all borderline, and support was voiced for enforcement, which is what is sought here.—Epeefleche (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

• Additional topic ban violations by Nableezy — here on November 13, here on November 14, and here on November 14, all approximately two weeks after Nableezy's ban was put in place, "warning" another editor with regard to edits on the subject of whether certain regions of Israel are "occupied".—Epeefleche (talk) 04:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

• Reply to question by Nableezy, as to why Nableezy warning another editor for a putative 3RR violation for editing regarding use of the phrase "occupied" when referring to territories within the I-P conflict is a violation of his topic ban. Yes, I can provide further clarification. As arb Vassanya (w/whom arbs Bainer, Wizardman, and Risker agreed) pointed out at the Clarification at which your similar behavior was raised:

  "Shifting discussion over to user talk pages or other venues is at bare minimum a gross violation of the spirit of a topic ban.... [your] confusion here is only arising from splitting hairs and trying to look for grey areas where they do not exist. The topic bans are perfectly clear ... Neither topic ban makes an exception for discussing unrelated issues on related pages. They are prohibitions on editing related pages. Full stop."[52]

  —Epeefleche (talk) 05:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

(cont'd) Do you actually believe that your I/P topic ban allowed you to snipe at an editor who was editing an I/P issue, in an I/P article, by giving that editor a 3RR warning for his edits there? And a 3RR warning that is baseless, to boot? If so, I think you may not be taking to heart the comments that the arbitrators directed at you, and perhaps could benefit from some greater guidance by the closing admin here as to the appropriateness of your behavior.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply by Nableezy

This is dumb. But it is what Epeefleche and Gilabrand should have done instead of edit war out comments that they are not qualified to decide are a violation of anybody's topic ban. As to my own topic ban, AGK has clarified that my topic ban does not include AfDs and my actions here have already been addressed in an earlier AE thread. While it is nice having fans, two frivolous AE threads within the span of 12 hours is too much for even me. nableezy - 17:10, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

But since we are here, below is a rundown of what happened at the AfD (apologies if I miss a revert in there):

Gila removes Nick and Nishidanis comments, reverted by Jeppiz, again removed by Gila, anon removed others, reverted by Mackan79, removed again by Gila, again by Gila, restored by Jeppiz (who at this point went to ANI where the closing admin said that this is an AE issue), I restored, removed by Mr. Hicks The III (now known to be another NoCal100 sock), I reverted, This stops for a while. When Hicks is discovered to be a NoCal100 sock I remove his comment and vote (something that any user, not only uninvolved admins, can do as he was site-banned). Gila then removes Nick and Nishi's comments again. I restore. I then move comments not relevant to the AfD but rather about the AfD itself to the talk page. Gila then again removes the comments relevant to the AfD to the talk page [53]. I revert. Epeefleche now joins the fun by removing the comments, and then removing my comments though my topic ban did not include AfDs. SlimVirgin reverts.

This entire time I asked each person who removed the comments to instead go to WP:AE with their complaints so that an uninvolved admin could make a determination of whether or not the comments were in violation of the topic ban and what to do if they were. Instead Gilabrand and Epeefleche, both highly involved and non-admins, took it upon themselves to make that determination and to enforce their own decision. All they had to do was to come here, instead they choose to continually revert. If anybody deserves an admonishment for what happened there it is Gilabrand and Epeefleche. nableezy - 17:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Epeefleche, would you care to explain how informing a "new" user about the 3 revert rule after they have made 3 quick reversions is a violation of my topic ban? nableezy - 05:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Breein, you yourself have written that you are not a new user (see here), so why would you take exception to that? nableezy - 05:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, but, fyi, sarcasm often does not translate well in text. nableezy - 05:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Ep - the content of the edits is immaterial, I did not discuss the content of the edits, I did not discuss whether or not a place was occupied, what I did do was inform a "new" user of what they could expect if they continued repeatedly reverting. I think I am qualified to do so. I did not edit a "related page". Breein was not given the notice because he or she added or removed the word occupied, Breein was given the notice because he or she made 3 quick reversions. nableezy - 05:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I was not "sniping" at another user, I did not raise any issue about the content of that users edits. And the 3RR warning was not "baseless". Unlike everything you have written above. I am not wasting more time on this or on you. Bye. nableezy - 19:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved editor Breein1007

I take exception to those quotation marks, Nableezy! Breein1007 (talk) 05:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Here, take a quick look at this. Breein1007 (talk) 05:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough! Breein1007 (talk) 05:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply/Comment by Nickhh

Just so that I'm not seen to be ignoring this altogether, my response to this is the same as that to the original clarification, posted here. In response to a couple of further points -

• Epeefleche, you quote me as saying AfDs are definitely included in the topic ban in principle, suggesting that as a result I was knowingly in breach of the ban, but neglect to quote the following sentence - "The point is more about whether making a general comment about journalistic notability in an AfD debate about one journalist's page is indeed a breach of a ban that stops editors discussing I-P issues". That was the issue in my view that needed clarification. As you also do quote me saying, I wasn't sure at the time. Once it has that clarification (although it has to be said, no arb made this point explicitly), it would seem more sensible for all involved to leave it there, rather than susbequently demanding enforcement in some manner some three weeks after the original event, when nothing much has happened since - I didn't even go back and look at the AfD once I'd made the brief initial comments. No one for example is running around demanding that enforcement action is taken against User:Jayjg for their one-off action in actually closing a far more contentious AfD recently.

• DGG, you appear to be conflating my and Nishidani's case with Nableezy's - for the former of course AfDs in principle were included in our topic ban (as acknowledged rather than "challenged" - the point was slightly different, see above); for the latter they were not, on the basis that Nab was allowed to comment on talk pages, as the terms of their ban were different.

Following all the drama and the clarification I think it unlikely I or Nishidani will do something similar. At the time I knew my comment was borderline (and was quite open about that), and with hindsight would probably not have skirted so close to the border. The only qualification I would put on that is that of course this whole incident had the unexpected bonus of flushing out a rather wide sock farm, which has ranged across I-P pages for a long, long time, making it such an unpleasant place for initially passing editors such as myself whose main interest has never been the Middle East conflicts particularly, and ultimately drawing them into rather daft conflicts that end with us all where we are now. --Nickhh (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved editor Sm8900

I think that any such topic ban should have a specific end date as well as a start date. I think that this one has run its course. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:41, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Tznkai

There appears to be a major misunderstanding of what goes on here. First, with very rare exception, Arbitrators do not patrol enforcement requests, other admins do. I am an admin, I am not an Arbitrator. Second, enforcement requests are not meant to handle general troublemaking, they are meant to handle specific violations of arbitration remedies. This is why it is important that you link the exact remedy. Third, we do not relitigate, retry, or reargue cases. We do not expand, or minimize remedies unless they explicitly invite us to do so. While we may accept or deny requests to enforce on our own discretion, we are not in the buisness of arbitrating ourselves.

In this case, Nableezy is not sanctioned under Westbank Judea-Samaria, and no action will be taken against him under this request. You can see me comments in an above section for what will or will not bring sanctions down on his head.

As to the other two, there was already a clarification requested and it came down clear enough that Jonathan Cook afd was within the Westbank - Judea and Samaria topic ban, this issue is mooted - its already been decided and I'm not sure what harm additional sanctions would prevent. To reiterate the point from the clarification: Knock it off! If there are recent issues I am unaware of, please update the request to make me aware of them. I'm going to wait 24 hours for more information or another administrator to come in and take over.--Tznkai (talk) 19:14, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I still really don't know what action it is I'm supposed to take here, but I'll throw this one on the table - I'll make a 1 second block on NickH and Nishidani, with a link to the clarification request and making it clear that AfDs of journalists involved in the IP conflict are off limits.--Tznkai (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Mackan79

I hope that ArbCom's clarification will settle any questions that remained about these sanctions, until the sanctions may be reevaluated. I do not see why we would seek to apply the clarification retroactively, particularly considering that it was brought by a banned sock puppet under the same restrictions, who was using another account to participate in the same AfD (if indeed we're going to review for technicalities). Epeefleche seems to remain unaware of this, as they quote the sock (Mr. Hicks The III) to show concern about the Jonathan Cook AfD, so I think it bears mentioning. Mackan79 (talk) 22:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

To DGG, my comment is based on the fact that it is not the only "close call" (or what I would also have called a clear violation) that has preceded the recent clarification. I consider Nickh's comment a clear violation in that, even though he tried to limit the scope of his comment relating to an article that is not wholly within the area of conflict, he still couldn't help briefly mentioning the political motivations for the nomination. I consider Nishidani's comments a clear violation in that, while his presentation of sources itself on this AfD should in some format be protected under WP:IAR, he also couldn't help making a similar comment about motivations in passing. And yet, I am no less clear that Jayjg's edit here, removing material which argues that the Washington Times is "pro-Israel" is at least equally a violation of the restriction. If the latter was deemed not a violation, then notwithstanding the Arbitrators' comments, the remedy was not sufficiently clear that we editors knew how to implement it. I hope it now is, but unless we're going to reevaluate every incident, I don't think you take a recent clarification to go back and look at just one of them, especially considering that the clarification itself was brought about by a sock puppet who was very specifically trying to game the system. The much better option is to look forward. Mackan79 (talk) 18:59, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment by JoshuaZ

I've already told Mackan why the comparison to Jayjg's edits isn't accurate. Since I don't have much time right now, I'll simply link to that comment. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Nickh, Nishidani, and Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I'm a little confused by some of the rejoinders above. Eppefleche asked my advice what was the appropriate step after the ArbCom clarification motion closed. I advised him that it would be to request enforcement here. Th people involved made engaged in an AfD. Arb Com had previously t said they were not to participate in that subject area. Enforcement was requested and challenged on the grounds that arb com had not meant to include afds within the topic ban. Several of the members of arb com replied, all saying that it did, and that it was totally obvious that it had been included from the start--none expressed the least doubt about it. (And, frankly, that seems the obvious view to me as well.). It was not a matter of extending their ban to additional areas, it was saying what it had been all along. In essence, they were saying that it had been a proper case for AE all along, and action should have been taken there. (Being arbcom ,they didnt simply refer it back, which would have simplified things.) I don't see how the editors involved can now try to say it was ex post facto, or moot; it was always part of the ban, and they violated it. Action is now expected of us. Having advised Eppefleche about procedure, I'm not uninvolved enough to do what should be done. (And personally, I wish arb com would start enforcing its own remedies or designating someone or some small group to do so--throwing it back to the community tends to have the effect it did here, of reopening the issue from the start and continuing the problem. ) DGG ( talk ) 09:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Nefer Tweety

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Nefer Tweety

User requesting enforcement

Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nefer Tweety (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan#Consensus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan#Neutral_point_of_view_and_undue_weight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Asmahan#Decorum

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

# Several editors mediated between me and Arab Cowboy at the Asmahan article, after the last mediation ended with admin al ameer son you can see here the sections of the article was, "career" section and in that section a subsection of "Egypt's influence", and "immigration to Egypt" was a subsection of "early life", I made an edit and explained this at the talkpage yet it has been reverted by Nefer Tweety against the the mediations/collaborations/consensus [54] and also undue weight, texts about her career are put in "Egypt's influence on Asmahan’s career". Nefer Tweety is an account which is almost exclusively used to do the same edits as Arab Cowboy, Nefer Tweety reverted the entire article back 4 months to Arab Cowboys edit, not caring about edits made by several people [55] I had also made a copyright violation request and a copyright admin removed the copyrighted material here, the exact copy righted text has been re added by Nefer tweety , personal life, section: [56]

Update: Assumption of bad faith is a violation against a principle: "to promote his POV and Syrian agenda" [57] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:29, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Not applicable.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

block or bann.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

<Your text>

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[58]

Discussion concerning Nefer Tweety

Statement by Nefer Tweety

User: Supreme Deliciousness is presently under disciplinary probation for one year for edit warring and other violations specifically related to Asmahan and other articles. On 20 December, Supreme Deliciousness returned to his old ways of making biased and inflammatory edits into Asmahan to promote his POV and Syrian agenda while claiming copyright violation about any text does not suit his agenda. There's no more copyright violation, the article had been rebuilt by Arab Cowboy without any copyright violations while Cactus Writer was closely watching. Supreme Deliciousness's probation must be enforced as well as the probation on Asmahan and he had better leave this article alone. I am dedicating my time on Wikipedia to protecting Egypt related articles from Supreme Deliciousness's vandalism. Nefer Tweety (talk) 11:23, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Nefer Tweety

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I am inclined to dismiss this report as  Stale. There have only been 4 edits to the article in the past week, and the edit warring seems to have died down. I would be interested in hearing any other outside opinions though. NW (Talk) 17:57, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

NuclearWarfare, at the talkpage there has been comments which are in direct violation against the cases principles Decorum, incivility and assumptions of bad faith in principle: [59] comment: "to promote his POV and Syrian agenda" "Supreme Deliciousness's vandalism" [60] The scope of the case shows that Nefer Tweety has been involved in this: [61] Is no action gonna be taken against this violation against a principle? What are the principles for if that is the case? So people can violate them and get away with it? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:22, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I looked over the recent edits to the talk page. As there have been no edits to even the talk page since December 25, I am still inclined to not give any sanctions here. I shall watchlist the page and keep an eye on any discussions. If any administrator disagrees with my (lack of) action, they are of course free to use their judgment to take what they feel is the appropriate course. NW (Talk) 21:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Brews ohare

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Brews ohare

User requesting enforcement

JohnBlackburne (talk) 17:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Brews ohare topic banned

2. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [62] Edit of a physics related page

2. [63] Edit of a physics related page

I could provide any number of these: all of his edits in the last week are on physics related pages or relate to those pages.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

A further restriction to his own user pages

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The problem with his edits (apart from them going against his ban) is his level of expertise is not enough for the article he's editing. He seem to be trying to compensate for this by relying heavily on sources, assembling the article paragraph by paragraph rather than writing it as a whole. The result is a mess that any editor will have to largely re-write from scratch. He doesn't seem able to take my hints on the talk page that he should not be writing the article this way. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 17:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[64]

Discussion concerning Brews ohare

Statement by Brews ohare

The article Bivector is a mathematics article that I created in response to discussion among other parties on Talk: p-vector. No physics discussion takes place in Bivector, although many possible applications of this topic to physics do exist, and I invited JohnBlackburne to discuss them in the article. (He has not.) No sanction against me has been violated, and this article constitutes a worthy addition to WP, indicating my good faith efforts to improve WP.

The present situation resembles in some ways the earlier restriction review, which also revolved about a distinction between math and science. That review is about to be updated, and presumably can include JohnBlackburne's complaint. Brews ohare (talk) 19:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the article Bivector as it now stands is fairly complete, apart from example applications that I cannot add due to sanctions, and I have no more mathematics to add to it. So I'd guess there is little need for administrative intervention in this matter. Brews ohare (talk) 18:56, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

JohnBlackburne wishes to raise the issue of my competence to write this article. My competence is a matter separate from violation of sanctions, which should be separately conducted. Although this charge is not relevant here, I wish to point out that no evidence is provided that the present article Bivector in any way presents incorrect arguments. The many sources I have provided to support various points seem necessary in view of the challenges brought by JohnBlackburne, which challenges of his he has universally abandoned on Talk: Bivector upon his further reflection. Brews ohare (talk) 17:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Dicklyon says: "He edits fast and furious, adding his own interpretations of things, and won't slow down enough to allow space to incorporate the views of others. He makes collaboration impossible, ignoring the input of people". I find these remarks at variance with the evidence on Talk: Bivector, which shows I have fully addressed JohnBlackburne's observations and provided civil, sourced, and extensive response to him, including some direct questions to him about his views. My editing has not in any way impeded collaboration: rather, attempts at collaboration have been impeded by JohnBlackburne's failure to address my responses to and direct questions about his views and, instead of engaging in shaping the article, filing this complaint. Brews ohare (talk) 03:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

JohnBlackburne and MathSci have raised once more the issue of my competence and suggested that I "make up" material and irrelevantly scatter sources about in my ramblings - a little essay concocted off the top of his head. Really! The basis for these extravagant charges is that to write an article on bivectors in R³ is unencyclopedic and unhelpful; in other words, whatever its accuracy and documentation, the article is insufficiently general for these gentlemen, who prefer the usual completely unsourced gobbledygook of many math articles, such as Rotor (mathematics) & Blade (geometry). Naturally, my inclusion of sources irks them. I do not believe such charges have any bearing on this particular hearing. I would be very happy to defend my competence on the math project page or in an RfC directed at my contributions to the content of Bivector. However, in the context of the present hearing, these allegations are (i) slander (ii) unsupported (iii) invalid & (iv) totally irrelevant to this hearing which is about allegations of violation of my sanctions. Brews ohare (talk) 23:36, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Brews ohare

• Strong OPPOSE Ok folks, seriously again? When is this nitpicking ever going to stop. Literally will you try to ban Brews for writing in english? Physics is described by english, to the administrator editor responsible for this renewed farce Shame on you. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 19:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Question Administrator? Who? Dougweller (talk) 21:10, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
• No basis for action I'm more familiar than I would like with Brews Ohare's history and sanctions, but I don't believe them to apply here. These are mathematical topics, not physics ones. The fact that Wikiproject Physics has tagged them as theirs does not alter that, nor does the fact that the areas of maths he is working on may have physics applications.

  I have not made more than a cursory glance through Brews' recent activity but what I saw did not seem overly disruptive to me: a dispute is not necessarily someone causing a nuisance. However, even if it was there are other avenues that would be better pursued than this. His contribution record does not reveal him to have recently breached his topic ban. If further action needs taking against him then people should go through the proper channels rather than attempting to short-circuit the process by applying his sanction in an inappropriate manner. CrispMuncher (talk) 21:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

• It would be very helpful – for Brews and for the entire community – if you wouldn't go off half-cocked, Hell in a Bucket. Anyone can post a request for enforcement, but that doesn't mean that they'll get it. That's why we're having a discussion. I think that Brews' editing on this topic is fine, however I would strongly encourage Bucket to find something else to do. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Funny thing about the methodology if you can't counter the arguement you find a way to silence the opposition. Sometimes the easiest way to do that is discredit them. How's that going? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 02:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• Formally, Dr. Brews's edit where he added a mention of general relativity can seen as a violation of his topic ban. As always, however, I think the topic ban doesn't make much sense, and completely missed the point of how he is disruptive. The interaction with JohnBlackburne on bivector is just more of the same. He edits fast and furious, adding his own interpretations of things, and won't slow down enough to allow space to incorporate the views of others. He makes collaboration impossible, ignoring the input of people who understand the topic at least as well as he does (probably better in this case). Instead of trying to "enforce" the silly topic ban, we should be looking for some other way to coach him toward more reasonable behavior. Dicklyon (talk) 22:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
• Whether these are physics-related is debatable. These are mathematics articles first and foremost, and they happen to have uses in physics. So no (sane) reading of the topic ban would make this within the scope of the topic ban IMO. However, Brews was also on general probation, which DO include having the same behaviour that lead to the Arbcom/SoL case, and this behaviour is (again) present. (This edit however IS a violation of the topic ban, albeit a very minor one). Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 23:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

That being said, going to ARBCOM enformcement rather than WP:MATH to seek a third opinion is probably jumping the gun here. Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 00:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is a pure math article. The charge is "Edit of a physics related page"; this isn't one, and a Project Physics template doesn't make one. Brews created the article from scratch (the page was a redirect when he found it), and he created another of his beautiful graphics to illustrate it. More importantly, Brews' behavior, both in editing the article and in discussion on Talk:Bivector, has been collaborative and cooperative, not disruptive or tendentious. The complainant here has some criticisms of Brews' treatment of the math. Attention from other Project Math participants should be able to resolve these issues through normal editing and discussion; in my opinion, that is where JohnBlackburne should have turned. More importantly still, and although it took him a while to do so, Brews dropped the stick about a month ago, and since then has been peacefully and productively creating and editing articles. Because of that, the rest of us should stop picking up the stick and beating him with it.—Finell 00:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with what Finell wrote above. I also note that during the Arbcom case, both my and Dicklyon's proposals to deal with Brews' editing style were rejected. Arbcom decided to tackle the problem via a topic ban. There have been no substantial (or otherwise problematic) violations of that topic ban, so this arbitration enforcement request is not warranted. Count Iblis (talk) 00:46, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
• This is not a vote. Make your comments, preferably helpful ones, but leave the bold text at home.--Tznkai (talk) 06:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
• Comment The edits by Brews to bivector are hopeless mathematically. The article is completely misleading at the moment. Brews makes the inexplicable error of assuming that the ambient space is 3-dimensional, whereas the correct mathematical context is n dimensions. It is completely perverse for him to have done this. It is not easy to see a reference to the more general article p-vector, to which the article was formerly a redirect. The mass of references is arbitrary, unscholarly and unhelpful. The article could be nominated for deletion with a request to redirect to p-vector. If Brews' other edits to mathematics articles are like these, he should be topic banned from mathematics articles. His editing here is just disruptive. Mathsci (talk) 20:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

  Comment You can't be disruptive at Wikipedia simply for not being an expert and making mistakes while editing a page. Everyone can edit Wikipedia. Given that Mathsci is an experienced Wiki-editor who should know this, I don't understand why he is complaining about Brews here instead of fixing the bivector page. Count Iblis (talk) 22:01, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Iblis. Indeed, why is anyone even mentioning whether the math is right or wrong here? This is the Arbitration Enforcement page.—Finell 02:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Other editors were asking for the opinion of someone familiar with the subject. Users can indeed be disruptive by making things up. The article should be deleted: it is misleading, unencyclopedic and there's very little content that can be salvaged, simply because of the unduly restricted context and essay-like writing. I'm sure that Brews was quite aware of this when he wrote it: he simply seems to do whatever comes into his mind. Count Iblis is known for supporting contributors who write articles on science off the tops of their heads like this (eg User:Likebox). It is worrying that he is unwilling to admit where the fundamental flaw is [the assumption that the ambient space is 3-dimensional] and instead chooses to attack me. As I've said, the article should be deleted. The problems with it are exactly the same as those involving physics articles, like speed of light. Perhaps Brews should be banned from all science articles on wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 06:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is unreasonable. Brews' content was sourced and his attitude was cooperative throughout—unlike his conduct that led to the Speed of light arbitration decision of which enforcement is sought. Your comments on the content of the article are most welcome on the article's talk page, but they do not belong here at Arbitration Enforcement. If you believe that nothing in the article is salvagable, AfD is thataway. This is not something that warrants sanctions.—Finell 06:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow....talk about selling the bear skin on a live bear. Topic banning from all science topics because you don't like the content? Sounds vaguely familiar but damn it's hardcore actually seeing someone post it. (Note I know he isn't Arbcom) In all my rants I am stressing the one major point, we are all volunteers. Frankly sometimes I think people get their rocks off on power tripping but for the most part we are all here for the project, if we all remember that we can tolerate a whole lot more. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 06:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I commented here because henrik had suggested comments from those with experience in editing mathematics articles. It is incorrect to say that the article is properly sourced. What is true is that it is a personal essay with a list of references. This "backwater" article is being scrutinized now and has not been carefully looked at before. It is incorrect to say that I do not "like" the article. I rarely say on WP that something is unsalvageable, but that unfortunately is the case here. I have explained that my fundamental objection is that the level of generality is wrong: to write an article on bivectors in R³ is unencyclopedic and unhelpful. Brews ohare has arranged his private musings into an article on wikipedia. These edits by Brews ohare on an essentially non-existent topic in mathematics - a little essay concocted off the top of his head - are just a continuation of the same blatant disregard for WP rules that he has shown in his editing of articles in mathematical physics, from which he has been topic banned. That is why, if he continues to edit like this, some wider sanctions might be appropriate. Here he seems to be testing the limits by writing outside the rules of wikipedia, basically using WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. (There were already problems at the main article p-vector[65]: that article is a stub devoted almost excelusively to bivectors; it explains that the main applications of bivectors are in physics, eg classification of electromagnetic fields.) It's not a question of toleration. Spurious topics in mathematics are not that hard to identify. Brews has invented the topic himself, with a bizarre scope [statements about 3-dimensions that do not generalize]: there seems to be little relation between the sources and what he has written. WikiProject Mathematics would obviously be a better place to have these discussions and an AfD would also be appropriate. On the other hand, per the suggestion, it seems quite reasonable to comment here on whether Brews is just moving his personal editing style, which has already caused problems in mathematical physics articles, to a quite nearby area. My comments might encourage others to pay attention to Brews' future edits to mathematics articles. He might also get the message himself if he reads this. Mathsci (talk) 14:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I didn't want to comment here after my original proposal but after finishing what I was doing on another couple of articles I've started work on Bivector, after which it will hopefully be a more useful article, remove I hope the need to debate the qualities of it in this discussion. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The article could be salvaged if it devoted space to applications in physics (brief summary with wikilinks). Should it not be merged into p-vector? There is also trivector (a redirect) ... Mathsci (talk) 14:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I looked at the argument in question. I have to confess that I couldn't get into the subtlety of the argument, and so I don't know who is right. But I do know enough about Brews to know never to underestimate him. So I went to the related topic of cross product which I do know alot about. I researched it in the greatest detail a few years back because of its applications in fields that I am not allowed to talk about. I examined the cross product article and decided that it could do with a few clarifications. I made some good faith edits, while wondering if JohnBlackburne would come along and revert them all lock, stock, and barrel. I put in useful information about the seven dimensional cross product and I related the famous story about Sir William Rowan Hamilton's inspiration in 1843 as he walked along the tow path of the Royal Canal in Dublin. That inspiration is the cornerstone of the cross product. I even put in a photograph of the commemorative plaque on Brougham Bridge that relates to the fact that Hamilton was so excited about his inspiration that he inscribed it on the wall of that bridge.

And as fully expected, JohnBlackburne did indeed come along and revert all my edits in one clean swoop, lock, stock, and barrel. Now I have absolutely no intention of going back there for an edit war. I have no interest at this moment in time of getting involved in maths articles, especially if it means having to have an edit war. I have no intention of helping wikipedia in articles that involve edit wars. The point however is, that I now know for absolute certainty that in relation to cross product, JohnBlackburne is totally wrong, and so I think that we all need to seriously consider the fact that in relation to his argument with Brews ohare, that he may well be wrong there too. David Tombe (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

David Tombe (talk · contribs) is topic-banned in a similar way to Brews ohare. Is it a complete coincidence that these ediors are moving their problematic editing style onto mathematics articles, for which the main raison d'être is applications in physics? Mathsci (talk) 14:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I did, after reviewing them all. See the edit summary for why. Raise it on the talk page if you think I'm wrong, it's irrelevant to the discussion here. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 15:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

No it's not a coincidence. It was my way of ascertaining whether or not JohnBlackbourne knows what he is talking about. I have studied vector cross product in depth. Blackbourne's removal of my good faith edits at cross product was a sufficient indicator to me of who may be the problem as between Brews and JohnBlackbourne. And while I'm on here, you referred to my edits at cross product as being problematic. I think somehow, I've been here before. Would you mind explaining to all and sundries exactly what was problematic about those edits.

And just to make it easier for everybody, let's start with my very first edit at cross product. It was removed by JohnBlackbourne in his clean swoop of all my edits. The statement that I have made is confirmed in the other article at seven dimensional cross product. Nobody there ever seems to have had a problem with it. David Tombe (talk) 14:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

In your first edit you added your signature to the page and references to cross products in zero and one dimensions which simply don't exist. Subsequent edits largely were to do with adding a new history section, despite their already being one title "History" which is much more appropriate to the page, which suggests you didn't read the article or even look at its contents before editing it. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 18:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Purely an individual opinion. The complaint and discussion seems side-tracked on the topic ban issue. However, some editors have commented that while the topic ban does not apply, there are continuing behavioral patterns that need to be addressed. I would ask that editors and any reviewing administrators consider this core aspect of the situation, rather than focus purely on the regulatory details of a topic restriction. Either there is a continuing problematic pattern of behavior, or there is not. If it is establish that there is an ongoing problem, Brews ohare is under a general conduct probation. Any uninvolved administrator may implement (as examples):

• a binding user conduct RfC
• a requirement for some minimum time for responses and/or number of editors responding before continuing after an edit dispute and/or acting on proposals
• an editing speed limit
• a requirement to defer to the consensus at a relevant WikiProject talk page or content noticeboard
• a size and/or speed limit on discussion contributions
• a requirement to stop editing when encountering disagreement and develop consensus with the assistance of dispute resolution as needed (essentially requiring WP:BRD)

Any number of editing conditions and sanctions can be imposed in order to provide any necessary boundaries and/or imposed guidance. The discussion should focus on whether or not there is a ongoing pattern of problematic conduct. If there is a continuing issue, focus on what conditions will help provide Brews ohare with the guidance and boundaries necessary and best insulate the project from disruption. Vassyana (talk) 02:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

My wording was perhaps somewhat clumsy below. I reviewed Brew's conduct (His competence to write the article is another matter) related to this article and did not find it sufficiently problematic to impose restrictions, but I'd be happy to hear if others have differing opinions. I would of course urge him to listen closely to the concerns of others. If it turns out to be a re-occuring problem that Brews ohare writes factually subpar articles and doesn't listen to input when this is pointed out, there are definitely grounds for additional restrictions [under the existing ruling, whether related to physics or not]. henrik•talk 15:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Henrik, In my opinion, it's JohnBlackburne that you need to worry about. David Tombe (talk) 15:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Henrik. That about cinches it for me. I'd recommend archiving/closing this thread before it degenerates further, since no further action or review is needed here. Vassyana (talk) 09:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to see the evidence that Brews is not listening now to others causing disruption. Mathsci and JohnBlackburne could reasonably complain after some detailed talk page discussions and then if Brews were to completely ignore those discussions. But all I see are short statements by JohnBlackburne. My own experience with technical articles is that you really need to take the time to explain things, like I did here. Wikipedia does not recognize any "expert status", but you can be a de-facto expert by behaving like a professor who takes the time to discuss things with his students. Count Iblis (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

JohnBlackburne, Your argument above simply doesn't wash. You said that I accidentally signed in my first edit. True. And if you look at my second edit, you will see that I corrected that trivial error within minutes. Your argument about the history doesn't wash either. I added more material about Sir William Rowan Hamilton and the famous incident at Brougham Bridge, Royal Canal, Dublin in 1843, and while doing so, I corrected some inaccurate material in that section. It could ultimately have been merged with the other history section given a bit of collaborative editing. Your actions in deleting all my edits in one go showed yourself up totally, because I was fully expecting you to come along and do that. I checked the history of the article back as far as 2007 and I didn't find a single edit by yourself on that article, although I did find quite a few by Brews ohare. On the other seven dimensional article, you definitely had never edited it.

You stormed into this shameful arbitration enforcement hearing by casting doubts on the expertise of Brews ohare in this field. I have now checked your own expertise and found it sadly lacking. Your attempt to explain the proof of 'why only three and seven?' at seven dimensional cross product indicates your level of knowledge adequately.

So what was this all about? It's strange that you just happened to go to two maths pages that I had edited on, and which you had never edited on, and simply delete good material, lock, stock, and barrel, rather than discussing the matter on the talk page first. What had alerted you to the fact that I had gone there? Do you constantly watch maths pages that you never edit? I would suggest that it is you who is being disruptive, and that it is you who lacks the relevant expertise, and I would suggest that you withdraw this shameful action against Brews. There is nothing more utterly reprehensible than to try and gain advantage in a maths argument by exploiting Brews ohare's vulnerability as regards his physics topic ban. I've seen Brews from both sides of the fence. Never underestimate him. If he is arguing about something, you can be sure that he is unto something good that others have overlooked. And alot of his trouble has been stirred up by by people who dig in after their lack of knowledge has been exposed. Drop it! David Tombe (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure other editors can evaluate my contributions for themselves. On cross product I have a number of mathematics pages I am interested in watchlisted including Seven-dimensional cross product. After fixing that article I checked for any related edits by the editor that caused the problems, and after reviewing the changes on cross product, reverted them. The changes I removed were the erroneous statement about 0 and 1 dimensions, a badly written sentence that duplicated the one before it, and a new (i.e. identically titled) history section when there already was a much better one which includes the appropriate quaternion history. If you still feel I was wrong please raise it on the talk page, the appropriate place to do so, where it can be discussed it at more length.--JohnBlackburne (talk) 09:36, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Brews ohare

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Bivector is clearly math, not physics, and thus does not fall under arbitration restrictions. Any other problems with the content or Brews ohare's understanding of the same are not under the remit of this board. May I suggest inviting more participants from WP:WPMATH to discuss? Assuming there are no contrary comments in a day or so, I'll archive this request then. henrik•talk 22:48, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
• I was involved for much of this case. If we had meant to ban math articles as well, we would have done so. I think no action is required here. Cool Hand Luke 09:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Given that the discussion above has started to stray into other directions, only tangentially related to the user in question and not very likely to yield productive outcomes, I think it's time to end this discussion. May I remind the editors above that AE is not the place to argue various grievances nor a part of the dispute resolution process, its only purpose is to enforce existing arbitration remedies. henrik•talk 09:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nableezy

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Nableezy

User requesting enforcement

Cptnono (talk) 00:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Nableezy is continuing to make the topic area a hostile environment for other editors. Over the last month or so he has called other editors "duchebags", told editors that he can't comment on them since he would be breaking civility guidelines (close enough to breaking it), and harassed another editor since he felt their was Wikihounding. All that could be in the past since several of us have gone through this arbitration process with reminders, Wikibreaks, and blocks to because of inappropriate behavior is to be avoided. Unfortunately, the pattern is repeated over and over again.

Nableezy took offence to my assertion that the International Committee of the Red Cross's webpage on Palestine and the Occupied Territories was not an appropriate external think under the WP:ELNO provision "Avoid undue weight on particular points of view". The Red Cross is only concerned with the humanitarian concerns of the conflict. It doesn't matter why people are blowing their hands off while making bombs or why babies are getting killed by tanks. The focus is that it is happening and there is suffering. I called it bias and having an agenda (oops). I've attempted to clarify my reasoning with more palatable terms (goal, mission) but Nableeezy appears to want to continue arguing and is making some personal attacks that have crossed the line. This is a particular concern because he has just recently had his sanction on talk pages lifted and has voluntarily taken some additional time away from the article. One of his first series of comments upon returning is full of insults, assuming the worst, and continuation of the battlefield mentality.

1. [66] "Uninformed editors should not be allowed to edit these pages." - This is uncivil and spits in the face of what Wikipeida is. I don't believe I am uninformed but simply look at the subject form a different perspective. His comments were insulting and I recieved a sanction for similar venting.

1. [67] "But perhaps it is too much to ask that you do the slightest bit of reading about an organization before you write about it." Completely inappropriate remark. Just to admit when I have dome something inappropriate, in this edit difference you will see that I referred to Nableezy's previous comment, Tiamut commenting on my intentions (something I am not allowed to do since she opened an arbitration case when I did), and Romac's sarcastic edit summary and use of an image on the talk page (which he has been asked not to do). I later apologized for using the term bullshit and admitted that less crass language would have been better. Nableezy also believed I was implying that he was a sole purpose account. He actually does have a focus on a few select topics (nothing wrong with that) but my comment was completely unrelated and an attempt to illustrate what I was trying to say.

1. [68] "Uninformed editors should not be allowed to edit these pages..." After I attempted to clarify my position and recommended that all four of us stop, Nableezy again makes a comment that is against the collaborative nature of Wikipedia and is simply insulting.

1. [69] "your comments undermine the very idea of what this 'project' purports to be" - Wikipeida falsely claims to be collaborative (he would later verify that this was indeed what he meant) and "and, yes, others agree that the link should not be included, but not because of the inane idea that the ICRC is 'biased'" - Calling another editors opinion "inane" is not appropriate. Even if he disagrees that is a personal attack.
2. [70] "...unlike others I know the meaning of what it is I write and am careful to make sure I do not say incredibly stupid things." - This was the point where I thought seeking enforcement would be appropriate. It is one thing to disagree with another editor, but stating that others (presumably me) were writing "incredibly stupid things" was too much.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

[71] This diff shows a couple comments by me. I tried to diffuse the situation by admitting to a mistake I made while asking other editors to stop. I thought everything would be OK but it stoked the fire.

[72] My attempt to explain that his comments were not appropriate

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

I have requested a 1rr restriction and reminders to stop edit warring on Nableezy previously. I even made mentions that I have not been seeking his block. This time is different. This incivility on the talk page shows to me that the reduction in his talk page sanction was, in hindsight at least, premature. We all need to try harder to be civil but Nableezy has proven that he either cannot or will not. If that is too much to request, a simple "Hey, you all need to be more civil" would be great. Not saying we need to frolic through meadows together but this stuff is going to far.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think it would be nice if Romac removed the image from the talk page and if Tiamut was reminded that the talk page is not for commenting on other editors intentions. I was pretty pissed when I saw their comments but they haven't continued and would be lame of me to not get over it. Nableezy's just get worse and worse, though. Apologies to pile it on. I see that there are two others up above but I believe this incident is unrelated. I'm sure that will cause frustration and would have been happy to take it to the Wikietiquette noticeboard if this wasn't the proper venue. Cptnono (talk) 00:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

In response to Nableezy, that was sometime ago and I have gone out of my way to express apologies, knock it off, and not repeat such mistakes. It is continually brought up in discussions but there is nothing I can do to take it back. You have continued being disruptive. That is why this AE is about you. Although it sucks that I was a jerk in the past it doesn't excuse you from continuing with this sort of behavior.

x2: We have discussed my sanction previousley. I also took a good Wikibreak. Blocks and all that are meant to b preventative not punitive. Mine obviously worked since I am trying to not start fights on multiple pages and have stopped making personal attacks. I get it now and had hoped that everything would be OK. You keep it going when it isn't needed. My past transgressions should have no bearing on how you conduct yourself.

And another follow-up. As in the previous enforcement request against Nableezy, I get emails from other editors pointing one thing out or another. I seems a little sneaky to me, but at the same time I have to respect someone's privacy and there was a point. It looks like we make Wikenemies when we have lapses in judgment (I am sure I have). He was asked to stop but continues to edit. I doubt this edit would warrant enforcement on its own but it could be viewed as continued flouting of the sanction (which includes the greater Arab-Israeli conflict). I'm on the fence with it myself since it might seem nit picky. This enforcement request is also based on civility. That last enforcement request ended in Nableezy telling me to "piss off" so I hope this doesn't come across as baiting.Cptnono (talk) 01:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Response to Offliner. I can see why that might come across. However, I think I have been pretty honest so am surprised that anyone would look at this as an attempt to use the guideline as a weapon. I could have attempted it after being told to piss off a couple of weeks ago if that was the case. Nableezy has made inappropriate comments time and time again and continues to start conflicts over multiple pages. I wouldn't be seeking a block if this was the first time to be honest. I was surprisingly offended by this round and he kept on making inappropriate comments even after a request to stop. And if you reread my requested action you'll see that I mentioned a good reminder as an option. I still think a block is needed but I really don't expect it. Cptnono (talk) 09:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Response to Tiamut: Although I have admitted to leaning in one direction on the talk page, my article contributions have shown both sides of the coin. The only major content dispute between the two of us is the massacre thing on a single article. I even agreed that the Cook one should be kept. I know you like Nableezy but some of us disagree due to his negative influence on the project (discussion and edit warring not opinion wise). If Nableezy would stop edit warring and causing conflict on talk pages people would stop bringing AEs against him. At the time of this filing there were three individual requests. He does receive more attention then other editors so it would probably be in his best interest to be more cautious. Pages under the West Bank arbitration can be under the Palestine-Israel case since it covers the broader Arab-Israel topic (something that started due to Israeli settlements should meet that criteria). Nableezy knows this and even pointed it out to another editor previousley. There is no punishment about it. It is about stopping this behavior on multiple pages.

I had actually failed to realize his topic ban just ended. I'm going to ask you to assume some better faith as I did when I took Nableezy at his word and struck out the already admittedly nit picky incorrect violation since it seemed like an honest mistake well before you made your comments.Cptnono (talk) 21:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut, we've gone over this several times including just recently on this page so there is nothing left to say to that.

Regardless, I am OK with withdrawing this request since. Nableezy made a note on my talk which alleviates my concerns (assuming it doesn't continue). An apology or acknowledgment can go a long way sometimes.This request is also falling into the previousley seen pattern of repeating arguments and becomming unreadable for the closer. The assumption of bad faith is also taking this in a weird direction. Cptnono (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[73]

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statement by Nableezy

Cptnono has problems understanding basic things, I did not say that Wikipedia is not collaborative. I also did not believe that he was calling me a SPA, not that I give two shits if he does feel that way. And the idea that the ICRC is "biased" is in fact inane. That is all I have to say about this. And the "venting" that Cptnono was "sanctioned" for was calling another user a dirty liar (something that should have already been covered by NPA, but apparently he needed a sanction specifically telling him not call another editor a dirty liar) and for saying that If you have Palestinian stuff on your user page you shouldn't be editing such pages. Not exactly the same thing as saying that uninformed editors should not be allowed to edit pages that they have no knowledge about. nableezy - 01:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I was not looking for an excuse, I was pointing out that your comparison that your behavior which led to your laughable "sanction" is in no way comparable to me saying that uninformed editors should not be allowed to edit those pages. Just showing the comparison made was bogus. nableezy - 03:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The Suez Crisis edit was an honest mistake, I saw it in my watchlist and thought it was the Suez Canal page, and in any event it was straightforward vandalism that was reverted. But had I noticed it was the Crisis page and not the Canal page I would not have made the reversion. nableezy - 02:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Upon being dragged to AE with the complaint that you contribute to a hostile environment, do you really think it's a wise course of action to start your response with "Cptnono has problems understanding basic things"? henrik•talk 10:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

He was making basic errors in quoting me, but it was probably not. nableezy - 15:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

For Jaak, as Tiamut points out my topic ban expired prior to those edits. AGKs adjustment was relative to the initial sanction which was on Oct. 29. nableezy - 15:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Epeefleche - yes, it has been disputed that I violated my topic ban on the Cook AfD, and your understanding of my topic ban has been proven wrong in the past. nableezy - 18:28, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Who exactly "chastised" me? nableezy - 19:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Cptnono is right, I was acting like a dick on that page. I got pissed off and let it get the best of me. Im sorry and will not let it happen again. But if somebody wants to block me or take some other action that is fine by me. nableezy - 21:58, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Jaakobou

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is in breach of his currently active ARB sanction by reverting on the Israeli politician Avigdor Lieberman.

• Sanction: topic banned from all related articles for two months in November 2009[74].
• Violation: 22:00, 29 December 2009
• History: Nableezy edit wars and has incivility issues in Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Principles. He was blocked for edit-warring in March and July of 2009[75] and topic banned for two months in November 2009 (initially 4 months)[76] (talkpage ban for 1 month). Sanction aside, I disagreed with Nableezy's surprise revert on Israeli politician Avigdor Lieberman (Nableezy doesn't really contribute to the page), removing what Hamas stands in the 'treason' context.[77] I opened a WP:3O to avoid the usual drama (sample-continued) but as there's a standing complaint, I decided to mention the violation.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Tiamut

Regarding Jaakobou's assertion that Nableey is currently in violation of his topic ban, he is incorrect. The original topic ban was placed for four months on October 29 at 21:02 and was reduced to two months (one month from talk pages and two months from article pages) on November 3 19:33. [78] The reduction to two months was to be counted from the date on which the initial sanction was made (i.e. October 29th). Therefore, Nableey's edits to Avigdor Lieberman came just after his topic ban had formally ended.

I share Offliner's concern that the complaints may be attempts to eliminate an editor with an opposing viewpoint, without regard as to whether or not this is the best course of action for the project. Tiamut^talk 14:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Epeefleche's comment, I am unsurprised that he would like to see Nableezy's topic ban extended given that he filed an unsuccessful request to get further sanctions placed on him less than a month ago. Again, this seems to a bit of a pile-on by editors with opposing POVs, anxious that now that Nableezy's topic ban has in fact ended, they will have to engage him in substantive discussion to achieve NPOV on different articles. Nableezy has already explained that his edit to correct spelling errors on Suez Canal Crisis a day before his topic ban ended was a good faith mistake based on a misreading of the title (which he saw as Suez Canal). Could we please let him get back to editing (and perhaps allow him to even enjoy it)? He's been punished for two months already and over that time, the encyclopedia has been deprived of an excellent contributor who catches vandalism, and produced comprehensive content like Al-Azhar Mosque. Others might try doing the same rather than spending their time nitpicking. Tiamut^talk 17:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Epeefleche, you are incorrect in your statement. No one thought that Nableezy violated his topic ban by editing the Jonathan Cook AfD but you. His topic ban on talk pages had already expired by the time he made his comments there and AGK, who initiated the topic ban, himself stated that it was permissible for Nableezy to participate in AfDs once that happened. Please do not misrepresent the facts. Tiamut^talk 18:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I remain unsurprised by the fact that the three people seeking to extend Nableezy's topic ban include two editors who have previously filed unsuccessful AE complaints against Nableezy and one who is currently engaged in a content dispute with him at an article that falls under the scope of his original topic ban which has now expired. Please people, try not to be so obvious. Tiamut^talk 18:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Epeefleche, you are conflating admin statements regarding the topic bans of those covered under the WestBank/Judea-Samaria case with those regarding Nableezy. The two issues are quite separate. Please try to recognize that. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 19:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Epeefleche, without a diff supporting your statement, I cannot accept what you are saying as true. My own review of the clarification request shows that Nableezy's case was not the one being addressed. AGK was clear in stating on another page that when his talk page ban expired, he was free to comment in AfDs. Tiamut^talk 22:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Cptnono, while I appreciate you striking your comments after Nableey's explanation regarding the Suez Canal edit, I remain concerned that you are overly interested in finding fault with what Nableezy is saying or doing. I long ago got over you calling me "a dirty liar" and drawing conclusions about my editing based on user page content alone. I'd appreciate it if you would get over Nableezy's comments at Talk:Gaza War too, which were not even comparable to your own, and which he admits above were not helpful and for which he has expressed regret. Tiamut^talk 22:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Epeefleche, thank you for providing the relevant commments. While the admins were commenting on whether or not the Jonathan Cook AfD fell under the scope of the topic bans for both, they seem to have missed the fact that Nableezy's ban from talk pages had ended. AGK clarified on a separate page that when Nableezy's talk page ban had ended (it was only for one month), he was permitted to comment in AfDs in that topic area as well. So while you are technically correct about what the admins said, their comments are frankly irrelevant given that the ban on talk pages had ended when Nableezy made his comments. They were speaking as to the general principle, and not his specific actions.

Cptnono, thank you for showing largesse and withdrawing your request. It goes a long way to alleviating my own concerns about your motivations in filing this request. I hope that in the future, we can all learn to speak to each other more politely and graciously, and avoid coming here every time we have a spat. Happy editing. Tiamut^talk 22:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Epeefleche

Nableezy did in fact violate his topic ban elsewhere as discussed further up on this very same page, and the tone of his comment even here (as has been pointed out) have often been markedly uncivil. This is an ongoing, intransigent problem.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

@Tiamut: As is discussed further up on this very same page, and has not been disputed, even in the most liberal reading of Nableezy's topic ban he violated it with trigger happy editing at the Cook AfD. Of course Tiamut shouldn't be the least bit surprised - Nableezy has been repeatedly uncivil (even on this page) and shown repeated lack of an appropriate approach to editing (as pointed out even after his ban by the arbs, as discussed above). Indeed, that's what led to his topic ban in the first place.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

@Tiamut: I've not filed an unsuccessful AE. In fact, the admin who has opined above at the still-open matter under "result" indicated that it was clear that the AE was appropriate. And of course, as indicated above, the arbitrators at the request for clarification uniformly chastised him for his post-topic-ban behavior.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

@Tiamut: Not so. I would refer you to my request at the clarification that the arbs discuss both bans, and the arbs comments regarding both bans.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:16, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

@Tiamut:At the request for clarification I wrote:

"nableezy had indicated on my talk page that this "request for clarification in no way applies to my topic-ban." As he was a named party, and his ban discused here, it would be helpful if arbs were to indicate (if it is the case) that it does apply to his ban as well."[79]

The pertinent language at the Request for Clarification from arb Vassanya (w/whom arbs Bainer, Wizardman, Coren, and Risker agreed) was:

"AfD discussions about IP-related articles quite clearly falls under "participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles". There is no grey area. An AfD is about as perfect of an example as you get for a "community discussion substantially concerned with such articles".... Shifting discussion over to user talk pages or other venues is at bare minimum a gross violation of the spirit of a topic ban. ... As far as I'm concerned, the confusion here is only arising from splitting hairs and trying to look for grey areas where they do not exist. The topic bans are perfectly clear and AfD is unquestionably included even in a strict reading of the sanction language.... "[A]ll pages ... which relate" seems to make the scope inclusive and clear in a similar fashion. Neither topic ban makes an exception for discussing unrelated issues on related pages. They are prohibitions on editing related pages. Full stop."[80](emphasis added)

--Epeefleche (talk) 22:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

@Tiamut. I'm actually in agreement w/the admins, and unlike you don't think they were all incorrect. As already noted more than once, he did in fact start editing there before his topic ban was over. under the most liberal interpretation. I'm done repeating myself and re-posting for your benefit as you appear not to be reading (at least closely), and am sure the closer here will appreciate my stopping this colloquoy now. On a final note, pls don't follow me around -- much appreciated.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:21, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Nableezy

The diffs presented above show that Nableezy is using an inapproriate tone, but I do not see major incivility. I am concerned that this report may be an attempt to eliminate a content opponent from Wikipedia, using WP:CIV as a weapon. Offliner (talk) 09:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: I noticed another violation of ARB sanctions and added it (12:01, 30 December 2009) to this complaint. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no other violation, as outlined above. Though Jaakobou has been asked to modify his statement in light of the facts, he has declined to do so. [81] Tiamut^talk 19:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Result concerning Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.