Wikipedia:Administrative action review

Administrative action review (XRV/AARV) determines whether use of the administrator tools or other advanced permissions is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Any action (or set of related actions) involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors—except those covered by another, more specific review process—may be submitted here for community review. The purpose of an administrative review discussion is to reach a consensus on whether a specific action was appropriate, not to assign blame. It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct, to seek retribution or removal of an editor's advanced permissions, or to quibble about technicalities.

To request an administrative action review, please first read the "Purpose" section to make sure that it is in scope. Then, follow the instructions below.

Purpose

Administrative action review may be used to request review of:

1. an administrator action
2. an action using an advanced permission

Administrative action review should not be used:

1. to request an appeal or review of an action with a dedicated review process

   For review of page deletions or review of deletion discussion closures, use Wikipedia:Deletion review (DRV)

   For review of page moves, use Wikipedia:Move review (MRV)

2. to ask to remove a user's permissions:

   Permissions granted at WP:PERM may be revoked by an administrator if XRV finds them to be misused.

   Repeated or egregious misuse of permissions may form the basis of an administrators' noticeboard or incidents noticeboard report, or a request for arbitration, as appropriate.

3. to argue technicalities and nuances (about what the optimal action would have been, for example), outside of an argument that the action was inconsistent with policy.
4. to ask for a review of arbitration enforcement actions. Such reviews must be done at arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE"), at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"), or directly to the Arbitration Committee at the amendment requests page ("ARCA").
5. for urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioural problems; use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ("ANI") instead
6. for serious, entrenched or persistent disputes and cases of rule-breaking; use Wikipedia:Arbitration ("ArbCom") instead
7. for a block marked with any variation of {{CheckUser block}}, {{OversightBlock}}, or {{ArbComBlock}}; Contact the Arbitration Committee instead
8. to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias. Such requests may be speedily closed.

Instructions
Initiating a review

1. Before listing a review request, try to resolve the matter by discussing it with the performer of the action.
2. Start a new discussion by clicking the button below and filling in the preloaded template.
3. Notify the performer of the action of the discussion.

   You must leave a notice on the editor's talk page. You may use {{subst:XRV-notice}} for this purpose.

   Use of the notification system is not sufficient.

Start a new discussion

Participating in a discussion
Any editor in good standing may request a review or participate in discussing an action being reviewed. Participation is voluntary. The goal of the discussion is to determine whether the action is consistent with Wikipedia's policies. Contributions that are off-topic may be removed by any uninvolved administrator. You may choose to lead your comment with a bold and bulleted endorse or not endorsed/overturn, though any helpful comment is welcome. Please add new comments at the bottom of the discussion.

Closing a review
Reviews can be closed by any uninvolved administrator after there has been sufficient discussion and either a consensus has been reached, or it is clear that no consensus will be reached. Do not rush to close a review: while there is no fixed minimum time, it is expected that most good faith requests for review will remain open for at least a few days.

The closer should summarize the consensus reached in the discussion and clearly state whether the action is endorsed, not endorsed, or if there is no consensus.

After a review
Any follow-up outcomes of a review are deferred to existing processes. Individual actions can be reversed by any editor with sufficient permissions. Permissions granted at WP:PERM may be revoked by an administrator.

Closed reviews will be automatically archived after a period of time. Do not archive reviews that have not been formally closed.

Block of Ytpks896

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Block

Block on Ytpks896 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) performed by NinjaRobotPirate (talk · contribs · logs) (discussion with blocking admin)

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1092#Disruptive_user_keeps_reverting_without_valid_reason

A sock-puppet investigation was opened against Ytpks896 in 2020, but it was dismissed because the evidence was insufficient. Fast forward a year and a half, NinjaRobotPirate blocks Ytpks896 as a suspected puppet of the same sockmaster, without providing evidence (the admin also has CU privileges but the block was not a CU block). I asked them on their talk page about the evidence used, but after a brief exchange I was simply told to "go away".

Why is this a problem? The policy requires sufficient evidence that would stand up to scrutiny, but no evidence at all has been provided here. I know that sometimes admins block suspected socks on sight without indicating what evidence was used, but my understanding is that this is acceptable only for really obvious cases and when the suspected sock is a relatively new user. If a user has been around for two years, made several thousand edits, and had a previous socking allegation (that was backed up by a lengthy presentation of evidence) dismissed, then they certainly deserve better than to be suddenly blocked without explanation. – Uanfala (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• I've advised this user to use the unblock template after they posted a help message asking another admin to review the situation. Not reviewed the block enough to provide an opinion on this yet. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 23:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• [1] "Go away. I don't like passive-aggressive people. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)" is a WP:ADMINACCT failure. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

• On reviewing the merits of the block, and subsequent handling of the situation by NinjaRobotPirate, I performed a checkuser of Ytpks896—I believe the behavioural evidence and legitimate concerns of sockpuppetry exceed the grounds for checking per policy. On reviewing the technical data, I discovered that Ytpks896 is  Confirmed to a number of previously confirmed sockpuppet accounts. I endorse NinjaRobotPirate's initial block, but would remind them that they are required by policy to "justify their actions when requested". For clarity, the route of appeal for a checkuser block is detailed at Wikipedia:CheckUser#CheckUser blocks -- TNT (talk • she/her) 01:04, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

  That would seem to be the logical outcome, then. I don't believe Uanfala's tone reached the level where not responding at that comparatively early comms stage was warranted (though for clarity, it was also not a great way of asking for review), but obviously the block judgement was reasonable. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:13, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

• If someone politely asks me for evidence, I respond much differently than if some random person comes to my talk page with outright accusations of blocking people randomly for no reason, which is an aspersion. But it looks like this is considered acceptable behavior on English Wikipedia. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to TNT for re-examining the block and doing a CU: that makes the issue moot, and the case is over as far as I'm concerned. Just a few notes though. I agree that there was a failure of ADMINACCT, and I believe that an editor performing a significant action (especially an administrative one) should be accountable, and not just to the people who approach them in exactly the way they want to be approached. However, if my comments were felt to be passive-aggressive, then there was obviously a massive failure on my part as well. I would genuinely like to know, what should I have said differently to avoid such an impression? Here's the exchange:

Hi! I've noticed that you've blocked Ytpks896 as a sockpuppet. Is that a CU block? The most recent SPI case I can see is from 2020, it was against the same user but was dismissed because of the absence of evidence. – Uanfala (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Most of my blocks are not from SPI cases. But, no, it doesn't look like it was a CU block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, I haven't kept up to date with how sock hunting is done nowadays, but my experience from a couple of years ago was that for an editor to be banned as a sock, there needed to be evidence, solid evidence usually. – Uanfala (talk) 00:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

There has never been a requirement for a case at SPI before someone is blocked as a sock puppet. Luckily, Wikipedia's bureaucracy does have limits. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:18, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't know if a formal SPI is required, but the presence of solid evidence certainly is. I don't believe you've just blocked this established regular editor on a whim? – Uanfala (talk) 14:23, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Go away. I don't like passive-aggressive people. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I didn't want to ask right away "What's your evidence?", because that would have felt brusque. I tried to provide a few hints and nudges for something that would have been obvious enough. What did I do wrong? – Uanfala (talk) 16:00, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

You're telling a longtime admin and CU that evidence is required--of course they already know that. If you're familiar with CU and SPI, surely you also know that CU evidence is not usually (or ever) shared broadly. I suppose NRP could have said a bit more about the evidence, and responded differently, but I can hear the passive-aggressive tone here, and Uanfala acknowledged that themselves in their response. Drmies (talk) 16:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily sensing a lot of passive-aggressive behavior, if anything, Uanfala seemed perfectly polite and cordial in this request. On the other hand, Uanfala never really explicitly challenged this block and asked NRP to explain their actions, so I can't really see this as a complete failure of WP:ADMINACCT. It seems like Uanfala was attempting to be overly polite, and this was interpreted as passive aggression. Uanfala asked a bunch of questions that implied that there were questions about the block, but never actually came out and said, "please tell me what evidence you had to conclude that the blocked user is a sockpuppet." If you never ask a question, you can't fault someone for not answering it. NRP answered all of the questions that were actually asked of them (even though there was a fairly obvious implied question that went unanswered). Additionally, I know that admins that frequently work with sockpuppets are often hesitant to reveal all of the things they look at to identify sockpuppets, as that would allow these users to more easily evade detection in the future. I'm not sure if that was a consideration for why NRP didn't immediately explain all of the details about this block before even being asked to do so. In the end, it appears that the block was accurate, based on the CU evidence given above. So, my conclusion of this event is that it was a good block, I'd give a small trout for NRP for perhaps having a bad day and being somewhat rude, and I'd advise Uanfala to come out and just clearly ask the question next time instead of beating around the bush with side questions and implications. Apart from that, I don't see any other action resulting from this interaction. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 16:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I see no passive-aggressiveness or other problems in the way Uanfala raised the issue on NRP's talk page in the excerpt quoted above. I think "Go away. I don't like passive-aggressive people." falls below the expectations of admins explaining their actions. Also, NRP's comment here, "If someone politely asks me for evidence, I respond much differently than if some random person comes to my talk page with outright accusations of blocking people randomly for no reason, which is an aspersion." is problematic. Uanfala was polite. And they are not "some random person", they are an editor with 13 years experience and 57,000 edits. They did not make accusations of blocking people randomly for no reason, not outright or otherwise. Uanfala's comment, "I don't believe you've just blocked this established regular editor on a whim?" explicitly communicates that Uanfala believes NRP had evidence (Uanfala said they don't believe NRP blocked on a whim... which is different from saying 'I can't believe you've just blocked on a whim'). Bottom line, I see NRP expecting to be treated in a way that is far more deferential and cordial than how NRP has treated Uanfala here. Bottom line: seems to be a good block, but a poor response to the questions. Levivich 00:22, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Bottom line x3: I don't get why, after Uanfala's three posts, NRP didn't simply explain why they made the block. Maybe it's because I have the benefit of hindsight, but it just seems bloody obvious to me that Uanfala wanted to know why this user was blocked, and the blocking admin should have explained it, IMO, in their first response. Levivich 00:26, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Levivich. NinjaRobotPirate should have given an explanation, whether that was "This block is due to non-public information that I cannot disclose to you", "I'll email you some context privately", or a full on-wiki justification. I only think this was necessary after Uanfala's third comment, which makes the request unambiguous (NinjaRobotPirate did answer to the letter Uanfala's first two comments).

I understand why Uanfala's comments can read as rude; however, we need to be aware that expectations of conversational norms vary hugely on Wikipedia due to cultural factors, neurodiversity and other reasons (I'm not saying that any of those reasons apply specifically here). I don't think there is a way to ask somebody to justify a block that will not come across as rude, passive aggressive, confrontational or patronising to somebody.

From TheresNoTime's comment, it seems the block was justified and needs no further litigation. — Bilorv (talk) 09:47, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

• In contentious parts of the internet, there's a method of insinuating offensive things using questions, sometimes called "Just Asking Questions" (JAQ). You frame your accusation in the form of a question ("Does X support the terrorists?"), and, for added passive-aggressiveness and deniability, you can phrase it as a negative ("X doesn't support the terrorists, does he?"). It's a frustrating method of needling someone. OK, community consensus says I overreacted. Fine, I'll be more forthcoming, even when I feel like the person is being rude, and I'll assume more good faith. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:16, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

  Out of curiosity, NinjaRobotPirate, let's say you're enquiring why a CU (who you don't know well) has blocked an editor as a sockpuppet—what would be your preferred opening message? (No intended insinuation in the question; it's meant earnestly.) — Bilorv (talk) 23:33, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

  How about "Hey [CU], I see you blocked [blocked editor], could you explain why?" That's pretty straightforward. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:52, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

• So is this board going to be used to tone police admins now? My review of the talk page discussion is the same as Scottywong's - the first time that Uanfala asked NinjaRobotPirate to discuss their rationale for the block was on this page, not NRP's talk page. I may not have been as blunt as NRP but I would've told Uanfala to get to the point or stop wasting my time too. This isn't two pals socializing over a beer, it's the internet - if you want something, ask for it in plain language, don't dance around it and hope that the other party picks up on your "hints and nudges". Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
  • This is a review of a block, not tone policing. No explanation of the block was actually given until this review, so the review fulfilled its purpose. That people disagree with NRP's assessment of Uanfala's message, does not mean they are "tone policing". (I am grateful that NRP has acknowledged those concerns here.) It's funny you start your post by complaining about "tone policing" while the rest of your post is telling editors how to properly ask a question. I see a touch of hypocrisy there. Levivich 15:44, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

  Oh, my messaging to you personally isn't exactly how you want it to be? Better open a post at XRV about me. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.