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September 27

Sweet summer child

The Internet seems to be convinced that the phrase "summer child" (or at least specifically "sweet summer child") originates with Game of Thrones, where a child might never experience winter. I was sure that was a pre-existing idiom referring to any kind of naive person, and Martin cleverly repurposed it. But now I can't find any evidence of it outside Game of Thrones! Did I just imagine hearing it before? Adam Bishop (talk) 11:36, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen an episode of Game of Thrones, but have definitely heard the expression "sweet summer child", probably first in the late 1960s. (Well before the Internet.) Sorry, can't help with a source. And it's bedtime here. HiLo48 (talk) 12:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In Newspapers.com (a pay site, and not comprehensive), I'm seeing the expression "summer's child" as far back as 1818, in poetry. And "summer-child" as far back as 1843. And "sweet, summer child" in 1879. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ngram hits in google books go back to c. 1840. You can click on a date range below the chart to get the actual sources. The earliest hits look to be from a novel by Fredrika Bremer. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:49, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Blue was the summer ah-, and mild

The fragrant breeze, — sweet Summer's child.

All rob'd in white, dead Stanley seem'd,

And radiance, from his features, beam'd; -

Meta, companion of his way, —

Yet pale as when, on earth, he lay".

The Creole by Mary Scrimzeour Furman Whitaker, Charleston, 1850.

"Thy home is all around,

Sweet summer child of light and air,

Like God's own presence, felt, ne'er found,

A Spirit everywhere!"

The West Wind by James Staunton Babcock, New York, 1849.

Seems to be an Americanism though, there is no usage that I can see from this side of the Atlantic, and it's not a phrase that I'm familiar with. Alansplodge (talk) 18:26, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the earliest references I found were in British newspapers, but it's mostly American. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:56, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks everyone! Adam Bishop (talk) 00:54, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

September 29

Welsh translation

In Dame Margaret - The Life Story of His Mother. Richard Lloyd George quotes the following lines -

Y fraich fu'n hollti'r môr,
Sy' 'nawr yn dal y gwan.
C. E.

Could anyone help with a translation? Google translate suggests "The shovel was gutting the sea, Now holds the weak", which is perhaps not entirely correct. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:58, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's from a hymn by Baptist Minister Christmas Evans (1766 - 1838) (usually sung to Carmel, Claudia or Louvain). This source, suggests:

The arm which divided the sea,
Is now holding the weak.

Martinevans123 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, that would make perfect sense in the context. DuncanHill (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you're feeling very keen, here's the conjugation for the verb hollti ("to split"): [1]. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:37, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Blimey! DuncanHill (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That explains a lot. I have a friend who is a native Welsh speaker but always takes notes in English because he says it's easier to translate than to write in Welsh! -- Q Chris (talk) 15:55, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They have an obscure counting system too - Richard Lloyd George, a native Welsh speaker, said he never quite got the hang of it. DuncanHill (talk) 15:59, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's really not much worse than the French one. The one that you've really got to watch out for is the Welsh version of Yan Tan Tethera! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:15, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Danish counting is a pig too, made even harder by them using different words for numbers on banknotes to those used in everything else. DuncanHill (talk) 16:17, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry, Theresa says we'll soon have a wonderful deal. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 30 September 2018 (UTC) [reply]

There is a modern decimal counting system in Welsh - see our Welsh numerals article - which can be used instead of the traditional vigesimal system. I haven't been able to find out when this was introduced, but Count Us In: How to Make Maths Real for All of Us (Ch, 6) by Gareth Roberts suggests that it was connected with the introduction of Welsh-language-medium schools in the 1940s and 1950s. He also points to "threescore years and ten" as evidence of vigesimal use in English. Alansplodge (talk) 17:23, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Further down the same chapter quoted above, it says that the Welsh decimal counting system was devised by 19th-century Patagonian Welsh businessmen in Argentina. It was recommended for use there in the first Welsh language secondary schools by Richard Jones Berwyn in a book published in 1878. I will add this to our article - a question on the talk page about the origins of the system has gone unanswered since 2012. Alansplodge (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well done Alan. Could have been worse, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My friend had a daughter Glenys (who sadly died in childbirth later, though her daughter was saved) who used to read beautifully from the Welsh New Testament, though she admitted that she had no idea what the words meant. 86.131.233.235 (talk) 16:07, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, I suspect that may be true of many English people reading from the English New Testament. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Happy birthday, Theresa. 2A00:23C0:7F00:C401:8146:108A:8AB1:1E5C (talk) 10:36, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

hurdles to numeracy

Speaking of difficult number systems, I heard once that in Hindi the number-terms up to 99 have been so altered by context-dependent sound-shifts that they have to be learned separately, you can't simply concatenate the word for 30 with the word for 8 (just as in English you can't concatenate 10 and 5). Is there any truth in that? —Tamfang (talk) 05:11, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What makes anyone think English is easy and logical? Where is the logic in the 'thir" part of "thirty"? Not to mention "twen", "for" (without the "u"), and "fif". It gets a bit better after that. HiLo48 (talk) 23:46, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here's where "twenty", "thirty", "forty" and "fifty" came from.[2][3][4][5] Basically, the culprit is Old English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:19, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, English decade names may not be "logical", but the names of numbers from 20 to 99 in English are predictable -- the decade word ("twenty" through "ninety") plus an optional following singletons word ("one" through "nine"). The claim is that Hindi names of numbers are not so predictable... AnonMoos (talk) 08:57, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

September 30

ǃ͡kxʼ

Is there an audio of this sound? མཀུཏ (talk) 01:15, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have audio for that complex consonant specifically, but we do have audio for the first part (Tenuis alveolar click, the "!" click) and a separate audio for the rest of it (kxʼ). Maybe hearing it in two parts would be helpful. —Stephen (talk) 11:25, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nautical terms

Why do nautical terms have many silent letters?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:35, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean bosun < boatswain and fo'c'sle < forecastle, presumably because of a tendency of sailors to orally abbreviate... AnonMoos (talk) 20:12, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go all out for fo'c's'le myself. Henry ^Flower 20:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Seafaring folks'll agree. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

October 2

Is there a form of of Kavanaugh with an o', like o'kavanaugh or o'cavanaugh etc?

After all, names like Sullivan are close to O'Sullivan, etc. I'm wondering after a quick google search of o'kavanaugh if Mark Judge incorrectly assumed the Irish name kavanaugh would also have an O'kavanaugh form.Thank you.144.35.116.10 (talk) 01:16, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Our Kavanagh (surname) article says: "Kavanagh or Kavanaugh is a surname of Irish origin, Caomhánach in Irish Gaelic. It is properly Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (an example of an Irish agnomen; see Ó Catharnaigh Sionnach or Fox of Fir Teathbha), but is often now rendered 'Caomhánach' or rarely 'Ó Caomhánaigh'". Alansplodge (talk) 14:27, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I found three google hits for O'Cavanaugh but they were all in 19th century publications. Rmhermen (talk) 16:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

According to a British directory site "There are 3 people in the UK with the surname O'Kavanagh" (a quick Google will reveal their phone numbers). The The Book of Irish Families, Great & Small By Michael C. O'Laughlin (p. 160) says: "Kavanagh... Note the name does not have the common "Mac" or "O" prefix. The name was likely used as an epithet, although it has been recorded as O'Kavanagh". 21:46, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

According to History of Parliament Online there was a Field Marshal O’Kavanagh, who was governor of Prague. I have asked on the Humanities Desk for more information about him. DuncanHill (talk) 22:02, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It turns out to have been one General Charles Kavanagh; no other source that I could find included the "O" prefix. Alansplodge (talk) 12:17, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Van Dyke brown

When used mid-sentence, should it be "van Dyke brown", or "Van Dyke Brown"? Joefromrandb (talk) 19:33, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on what spelling or style is preferred in the context you are using it. For example, if working within a style guide that uses the Oxford English Dictionary spelling, the adjective would be capitalized (but only spelled as a single word) and the noun lower case: That colour is called Vandyke brown. This may well vary if you need to follow an American or other style. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:52, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen it spelled as a single word. I do know that the color's namesake, Sir Anthony van Dyck, is spelled with a lowercase "v" (as are Dick van Dyke, et al.). As such, it just seems odd to me to see "Van Dyke Brown". Joefromrandb (talk) 14:48, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dick Van Dyke spells his Van with a capital V. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:22, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just reporting the OED spelling! As mentioned, you are of course free to use the spelling from a different dictionary or style guide. If you specify here which one you need, someone may be able to find the entry for you.70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:03, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Van Dyke brown, not Van Dyke Brown. Dutch names which are uncapitalized gain capitals when used without forenames but why capitalize Brown? Rmhermen (talk) 16:31, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I indeed meant to say: "Van Dyke brown". I've never seen "brown" capitalized; that was a typo on my end. Joefromrandb (talk) 19:02, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chambers 20th Century Dictionary gives "vandyke brown". DuncanHill (talk) 21:31, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

October 3

DE- LA dictionary

I am looking for the authoritative german to latin dictionary available for free on the internet Temerarius (talk) 03:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No offense, but have you actually tried simply googling what you look for? There are several options on google when you search for a german-latin dictionary. 85.16.224.77 (talk) 06:18, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Browning's Life in a Love, meaning of the last two lines?

  No sooner the old hope drops to ground
  Than a new one, straight to the selfsame mark,
  I shape me—
  Ever Removed!

What the heck do those two last lines do there? What do they mean? The first urge is to read it as the goals (hopes) the speaker sets for himself but that would not be appposite however far-fetched a poetic licence with grammar and semantics we allow. What does it really mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:D08D:C4D6:E81A:A58D:3505:F74B (talk) 06:48, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the formatting, if you permit. The note here explains the grammar: "I" is the subject, "a new one" is the object: "I shape me (=for myself) a new hope". "Ever removed" would mean that that hope, or the goal of that hope is always out of reach. --Wrongfilter (talk) 06:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:D08D:C4D6:E81A:A58D:3505:F74B (talk) 08:50, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

-Cómo te llamas en latín? -What´s your name on latin?

A ANAS, APICULA, AQUILA, ARANEA, ASINUS
B BLATTA, BOA, BUFO
C CAMELLUS, CAMELOPARDALIS, CANCER, CANIS, CAPRA, CASTOR, CERVUS, CIMEX, COCHLEA, CORVUS, COTURNIX, CROCODILUS
D DELPHIN, DROMEDARIUS, DUGONG
E ELEPHANTUS, EQUUS
F FALCO, FELIS, FORMICA, FOSSA
G GALLINA, GRYLLUS
H HIPPOPOTAMUS, HOMO, HYAENA
I IBEX, INSECTUM
L LACERTUS, LEO, LEOPARDUS, LEPUS, LIBELLA, LINX, LUPUS
M MULIER, MUSCA
O OCTOPUS, OSTREA, OVIS
P PALUMBA, PANTHERA, PAPILIO, PASSARE, PAVUS, PELECANUS, PHOCA, PISCIS, PORCUS, PULMO
R RANA, RHINOCEROS
S SALAMANDRA, SCARABAEUS, SCIURUS, SCORPIO, SERPENS, SIMIUS, STRUTHIO
T TALPA, TARTARUCHA, TAURUS, THERMAE, TIGRIS, TRUCTA
U URSUS
V VACCA, VERMIS, VESPERTILIO, VULTUR

Cloud forest (talk) 16:25, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand your question, then when Latin was in use by e.g. the Romans there was no word for the llama. As a New World species it was entirely unknown to the Romans. It would not be known in Europe for another thousand years, long after Latin stopped being used as a living language. Seems though there is a page at la.wp for the animal, la: Lama glama, but I don’t know if that counts, as it’s just the scientific name. Such names are always in Latin, but for use in other languages.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 19:58, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. I looking just for the antiques names.

(Why do you erase the hieroglyphs, that is a language to, I´m searching for those, too. Cloud forest (talk) 20:10, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the hieroglyphs as they seemed purely decorative, and were distracting and taking up space. While many English speakers can follow Latin due to exposure to it and its relations to English, I would think very few can make sense of Ancient Egyptian. If the question is the same then the answer also is: Ancient Egyptians had no word for llama for the same reasons. And their language is no longer in use in any form, so it seems unlikely anyone has devised a word for llama in Ancient Egyptian.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 21:27, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you are Thor Heyerdahl who thought that the Ancient Egyptians had sailed across the Atlantic for a spot of pyramid building; he crossed the ocean on a papyrus boat to prove the point (second time lucky). Alansplodge (talk) 21:54, 3 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When I saw the section header I suspected it was nothing to do with llamas - it's the Spanish version of the Portuguese Como se chama em Latim ("What's your name in Latin?) It is true, however, that the Spanish word for "llama" is llama (in Portuguese it's lama - unlike the Welsh they don't "do" double l at the beginning of the word). I think that by removing the hieroglyphics the point of the question has been rather nullified. 86.152.81.16 (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If it weren't for JohnBlackburne's comment, I would have totally missed the meaning of the question. As it had been said above, there was no latin name for llama as it is a species found only in the new world. The etymological derivation of the Spanish word is Quechua llama, precisely. The page from the Latin Wikipedia cited by JohnBlackburne mentions the current common name of lama. Pallida Mors 13:24, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I blame them, but JohnBlackburne and Pallida Mors are both wrong. This relates to List of animals (latin), which is being considered for deletion.

I learned a new word of Spanish today - yo is not an exclamation (as derived from Middle English and in the Twi language of Ghana) but the first person singular personal pronoun (corresponding to Portuguese eu, English "I"). 86.152.81.16 (talk) 14:24, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you think my answer is wrong then please explain how. The original questioner seemed happy with it, though not happy with my ignoring and removing the hieroglyphs which I responded to in my subsequent post.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 15:18, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They didn't ask a question, they copied and pasted their article List of animals (latin) (which has been prodded for obvious reasons) onto the ref desk and gave it an eye-catching heading. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 19:46, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

October 4

@@ Line 177: / Line 177: @@
 ::I learned a new word of Spanish today - ''yo'' is not an exclamation (as derived from Middle English and in the Twi language of Ghana) but the first person singular personal pronoun (corresponding to Portuguese ''eu'', English "I"). [[Special:Contributions/86.152.81.16|86.152.81.16]] ([[User talk:86.152.81.16|talk]]) 14:24, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 :::If you think my answer is wrong then please explain how. The original questioner seemed happy with it, though not happy with my ignoring and removing the hieroglyphs which I responded to in my subsequent post.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 15:18, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
+::::They didn't ask a question, they copied and pasted their article [[List of animals (latin)]] (which has been prodded for obvious reasons) onto the ref desk and gave it an eye-catching heading. -[[Special:Contributions/165.234.252.11|165.234.252.11]] ([[User talk:165.234.252.11|talk]]) 19:46, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 = October 4 =