Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts

2012 in UFC

The 2012 in UFC list links to many articles that fail WP:EVENT and WP:MMANOT, what would be the best to assess whether to merge most of the individual articles with 2012 in UFC in accordance with WP:PRESERVE.

• A single discussion thread here with a vote on all of the events that are currently wikilinked to their own page. (quicker, shorter timeframe, all information regarding relative notability in one place)

• AfD requests for each event starting with the least notable. (assess each event on an article by article basis, only way that fits in with current guidelines, could lead to differences in consensus between two similar events)

Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially from editors with much more knowledge than me. Dohertyben (talk) 22:10, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many people are really watching this page. By Wikipedia policy/guidelines, WP:AfD should not be used if your intention is to merge one article into another. Yes, it does happen and has happened with MMA articles in the past. In my not so humble opinion, if an editor wants to merge non-notable UFC events from 2012 into 2012 in UFC my advice would be to nominate each article, one at a time, to be merged as per Wikipedia:Merge#Proposing a merger. Just as per those directions, the merge discussion would take place on 2012 in UFC.

As has happened in the past there is a high likelihood for the potential for heated discussions, sockpuppets, meatpuppets, and overall disagreement. Therefore, I believe that after a week or more (at some point after the discussion dies down and at least a week has passed), a message should be posted at WP:AN requesting an administrator to close the merge discussion with their independent assessment of the result of the merge discussion (to merge or not to merge, that would be the question). At the same time, the admin can decide if the target of the merge should be protected to disallow people to remove the redirect. This is probably an overly cautious method of handling this potential situation, but after having endured and witnessed what I have seen, this is probably the best method.

Another discussion that probably should happen at some point is what we, as a WikiProject, believes should be contained in a 'by year' article for MMA promotions. By that I mean continuing the current practice of putting full fight card results and miscellaneous information into the 'by year' article or replacing fight results tables with prose discussing notable occurrences within the event and its relevance to the promotion and year in events as a whole. But that is probably a separate discussion in of itself. --TreyGeek (talk) 22:39, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll admit I've used AfD when I wanted to merge an article on a fighter, usually due to the combative nature of the discussion, and that my battle scars make me generally avoid MMA event discussions (especially UFC ones). That said, I agree with TreyGeek's approach as being the correct WP way to go. Caution, and thick skin, is always good in MMA discussions. Papaursa (talk) 23:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the replies, I'm expecting a backlash don't worry, its just the majority of the event pages contain less than a sentence or two of encyclopedic content and would be better suited to the list format. Wikipedia is a great resource when looking at past events and the results table is very useful to get the information quickly but that's a discussion for another time.

I will propose that these be merged with the omnibus article:

• UFC 142
• UFC 143
• UFC 144
• UFC on FX: Alves vs. Kampmann
• UFC on Fuel TV: Gustafsson vs. Silva
• UFC on Fox: Diaz vs. Miller
• UFC on Fuel TV: Munoz vs. Weidman
• UFC on Fox: Shogun vs. Vera
• UFC 150
• UFC on Fuel TV: Struve vs. Miocic
• UFC on FX: Browne vs. Bigfoot
• UFC 153
• UFC on Fuel TV: Franklin vs. Le
• UFC 154
• UFC on Fox: Henderson vs. Diaz
• UFC on FX: Sotiropoulos vs. Pearson
• UFC 155

And also The Ultimate Fighter: Team Carwin vs. Team Nelson Finale be merged with The Ultimate Fighter: Team Carwin vs. Team Nelson

As the articles fail WP:EVENT and WP:MMANOT. They contain minimal encyclopedic content, event background, event description and event aftermath information and would be better suited to the list format without these sections being written.

Dohertyben (talk) 00:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

"its just the majority of the event pages contain less than a sentence or two of encyclopedic content". It only takes a few clicks on the links above to see this is completely wrong. They all have decent informative background sections, about the same as typical sports articles. Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_NASCAR_Sprint_Cup_Series, and click on the individual races. Try to pull something like this on those nascar articles and see what happens. I expect their admins to be less useless than the ones for MMA. 174.31.163.200 (talk) 11:03, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

For fear of going over the same points yet again. Several one or two sentence paragraphs about the background of event, usually just "XXX was signed to fight against YYY", is not sufficient, IMO, to meet WP:SPORTSEVENT's guideline that "articles about notable games should have well-sourced prose, not merely a list of stats." Articles such as UFC 94 and UFC 140 should be what the event articles look like if they are to have a chance of surviving AfD. However, people rarely want to put in time to actually write up prose that summarizes and discusses the event itself and the ramifications of the event. I think if people want just basic event results, they should be looking at Sherdog or the MMAWiki. I think if people want to read about an event and why it is important, then they should come to Wikipedia. Just my opinion. --TreyGeek (talk) 13:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

• Have you (or anyone else running this show here) ever bothered to look at any other sports pages as an example or is MMA held up as some sort of shining beacon of prose? Because if it's the second, please consider fixing the UFC 2012/2013 pages so they don't look as if formatted by children or the mentally handicapped. The background info is useful since it provides a summary in one place of events that led up to the main event (X dropped out due to Y, etc), which is the point of an encyclopedia. I'm not sure if it's even worth trying to reason with people who feel these giant cluster-pages are acceptable and yet have the gall to talk about standards. Just copy/paste how boxing is done and call it a day. Also, there seems to be an admin running around making decisions who thinks the UFC has seasons, which is just embarrassing. 174.31.163.200 (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to defend other sports event pages. I think many of them also fail WP:SPORTSEVENT. To say it's okay that MMA articles have the same level of lack of information is an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument. We should be striving to provide encyclopedic content about MMA events and we, as a WikiProject, are largely failing at that task, IMO. I agree with you that the 2012/2013 articles look like crap. I believe my original proposal for the 2012 in UFC Events article was nicer formatted since it included actual summaries of the events and wasn't one stub article after another. But then people complained that the full fight card wasn't listed, and bonus awards were missing, and fighter payouts weren't provided, and entrance music was ignored. When we start adding on WP:FANCRUFT and trivia the articles disintegrate into crap (again, IMO). I'd also love to see where an admin believes that MMA runs in seasons. The closest I have seen have been admins who suggest that summarizing MMA events a year at a time is a preferable option to 50 stub, possible non-notable, articles. --TreyGeek (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

• Let me try to understand this. The "argument" is that what's good enough for all other sports articles on wiki is not good enough for MMA, yet at the same time we must REMOVE encyclopedia-user requested information (read: what they come for), with the end result of complete utter crap. Compare this again to the rest of sports, or anything for that matter, because I've literally never seen any page this incompetent. Do you seriously expect any contributor to buy into this? The problem is now that the "front page" looks like a ghetto with all its Broken Windows, no volunteer is going to waste time fighting the people who ruined and still run the place, and obviously the latter aren't going to give a shit. BTW, I assumed they mean summarizing a season instead of a unit of time meaningless in the UFC, suppose I gave benefit of the doubt they were just ignorant, not dumb as rocks. 174.31.163.200 (talk) 22:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that TreyGeek's approach is the right one, and I like the idea of each event being discussed separately so the community can evaluate it on its own merits. I have consistently argued that UFC events that include a title fight pass WP:SPORTSEVENT, so I'll vote that way, but it will be interesting to see what the community consensus is. I'd hope that most of the non-numbered events can be merged with relatively little controversy. Hopefully we can get some previously uninvolved admins to handle the closes. It would be nice for some fresh eyes to look at them. CaSJer (talk) 23:41, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• • • Funny you should mention "community", because all I saw when reading the history of this topic is the MMA editors getting screwed, and this whole area turning into a ghost-town since those doing the screwing don't give a shit about the content.
• I support Dohertyben merge proposal. It is clear that outside of very big international sports events like Olympics or the Super Bowl, the majority of sporting events do not have notability beyond routine coverage sport coverage and the vast majority of UFC events do not seem to even pass WP:SPORTSEVENT. If you wish to propose it, remember to follow the instructions at WP:PM because many editors seem hostile to removing sports event articles due to their current coverage in sports media and popularity which may appear to many as the same as notability, and that is why these discussions must be had with uninvolved editors and administrators to try to make sure that what's left is encyclopedic content appropriate for Wikipedia. Jfgslo (talk) 02:45, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Try this anywhere else and see what happens. It's not a coincidence that MMA seems to attract all the deletionists who can't get any pull elsewhere.
• If the two options are to delete all these articles or merge them into an omnibus, I reluctantly Support the merger. Luchuslu (talk) 19:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Look around. This is literary the only place on wiki where well-established articles are being deleted. It's nothing but a complete sham. 174.31.166.185 (talk) 20:45, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

"The vast majority of UFC events do not seem to even pass WP:SPORTSEVENT" - And people wonder why the UFC articles on Wikipedia are such a disaster. Look at the attitude that editors come in with. Portillo (talk) 03:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

• I remember the project had a lot of momentum a year or two back (and many on mma forums were discussing it) when the sport was growing, and then the trash weaseled in and killed the enthusiasm. Too bad they won't leave so it can get back on track. 75.172.12.104 (talk) 12:21, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Merge discussion for The Ultimate Fighter: Team Carwin vs. Team Nelson Finale

An article that you have been involved in editing, The Ultimate Fighter: Team Carwin vs. Team Nelson Finale, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going Talk:The Ultimate Fighter: Team Carwin vs. Team Nelson, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Dohertyben (talk) 00:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

With no one opposed to the merge after the discussion was open for several weeks, I elected to close the discussion and perform the merge. --TreyGeek (talk) 15:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to deprecate martial art style from Infobox martial artist in MMA articles

I've noticed that Sherdog no longer uses the fighting style in the Fight Finder. This was the most reliable third-party source for this. Others aren't really reliable. For example, Roy Nelson (fighter) is presented in his UFC fights as a Kung Fu fighter, even though he doesn't really apply this martial art style in his fights. And previously Sherdog even had Thugjitsu as the style of Yves Edwards. As previously discussed some time ago, current mixed martial artists (probably since the first 10 UFCs) rarely rely on a single style. Because of this and since Sherdog no longer uses this parameter, I believe MMA biographical articles shouldn't use at all style with {{Infobox martial artist}} if a fighter is only an MMA fighter (this would exclude fighters who actively participate in other combat sports like Alistair Overeem used to). I would suggest instead something along the lines of "Primary fighting style" being either "striker", "grappler" and "all-around" the only parameters, but this would be too complicated to substantiate with sources and completely subjective, so I believe that it is enough with removing style altogether from infoboxes in its current form.

I propose a stronger wording in the paragraph in question where it says "Using the style parameter from the {{Infobox martial artist}} is discouraged in MMA biographical articles..." to something like "Do not use the style parameter from the {{Infobox martial artist}} in MMA biographical articles..." in order to encourage the removal of this parameter, eventually perhaps with the help of the MMABot if this is not too controversial. Jfgslo (talk) 21:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

As per the previous discussion I support not having fighting styles listed for "pure" MMA fighters. My definition of "pure" MMA fighters are those fighters who have never professionally fought in a kickboxing or boxing fight. Those fighters I can agree with listing those two styles as appropriate (usually denoted by the article belonging to a kickboxing or boxing category).

As a matter of fact, MMABot is already approved to remove fighting styles from Infoboxes as a result of the last discussion (See MMABot task #8 and the MMABot discussion on this task). MMABot hasn't been run on fighter articles in a while. My plan is that once I finish running through the event articles (perhaps two afternoons of my dedicating it to running MMABot on them) I'll restart MMABot to go through fighter articles. However, editors will often come behind MMABot and add them back. Yes, more of my time spent running MMABot can remove them quicker, but it'll take education of editors (particularly those who don't bother to follow discussions here) and keeping an eye on articles for the changes to really stick. --TreyGeek (talk) 21:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I would disagree. While Sherdog removing fight styles from its articles does reduce the third-party verifiability (if that's even a real word), there should be enough evidence to support keeping styles. Most fighters earned their styles from actual accomplishments. The best example being high school or college wrestlers, as well as fighters with belts in any martial art. Also, the more obscure examples you listed (Roy Nelson and Yves Edwards) can be found in other third-party sources, like this for Nelson and this for Edwards. I see it as an unnecessary change, but welcome everyone's imput on the topic. Luchuslu (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

As I mentioned in the discussion a couple years back, we are using {{Infobox martial artist}}. The style parameter was intended for use by practitioners of traditional martial arts (Karate, Kung Fu, Jujutsu, etc). For those who have competed in wrestling, there is a separate parameter to denote what level they competed at. MMA fields were added to it later since there were a number of similar overlaps and for those cases where an MMA fighter is also notable for their activities in a traditional martial art. MMA fighters rarely focus on a specific martial art, instead they cross-train in multiple martial arts and combat sports. Therefore, I would argue, that if the style parameter is used for MMA fighters, the style listed would be "mixed martial arts", but that would be redundant. If you want to record that a particular fighter has a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, that could be listed in the rank parameter (spelling out the rank as opposed to using a color box). I also believe, that if there is going to be an effort to list martial arts ranks and wrestling competition levels in the Infobox, those items should be in the prose of the article with appropriate references. --TreyGeek (talk) 21:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

After re-reading the archived discussion, there did seem to be pretty much unanimous support for this change, and I'm not one to go against consensus too often. It wouldn't be a major change and it would cut down on original research by editors. It is also a bit repetitive with the "Rank" and "Wrestling" parameters already in place. I Support it. Luchuslu (talk) 00:49, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Um, I guess I'm late to this, but I would pledge Mild Support here to remove styles. The style thing is harmless but kind of pointless. What someone's real combat sports background is can be written in prose in their biography or listed among their accomplishments in the infobox (like a 2nd degree blackbelt in Judo, or a FILA grappling title). The actual style announced by Bruce Buffer or whoever is doing the ring intros rarely means anything more than symbolism or nostalgia. Roy Nelson calls himself a Kung Fu fighter purely as a joke. Jason Mayhem Miller has himself announced as "a slap boxer" for the same reason. MMA isn't one style. If you're fighting in MMA, that is the ruleset you are adhering to and MMA is your real style. Any significant base (like an NCAA All-American wrestler, or an Olympic Judoka, or world championship in Samshou), can either be listed in the box separately (if it's a belt), stated in the article text, and/or listed below the box if it's a medal in some prestigious tournament like the ADCC, the Olympics, or the Pan-American Games. Again, I don't see the harm in it but I don't see any real need for it either. Beansy (talk) 05:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

If that happens, someone should add a "UFC ranking" parameter. Evenfiel (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

"UFC ranking" has nothing to do with these discussion, so please open another section if you want to discuss it, perhaps in the talk page of {{Infobox martial artist}} since the addition of parameters is related to that template.

This is the text that will be replacing the current one: "Do not use the style parameter from the {{Infobox martial artist}} in MMA biographical articles. Modern MMA requires training several fighting styles, which means that no mixed martial artist uses a single style when fighting. References that describe martial arts ranks (i.e. black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) and/or martial arts training (i.e. training boxing) are not evidence of fighting style and are not valid to justify a fighting style in an infobox. Do not add your own interpretation of a fighting style. The style parameter should only be used in MMA fighters that have participated professionally or in international competitions in other combat sports (i.e. boxing or kickboxing) and who are notable in said sports and deserve an article for their merits in these other sports (i.e. Antônio Rogério Nogueira, Alistair Overeem). It is suggested to MMA editors that they actively remove the style parameter in infoboxes of MMA fighters that do not meet these criteria."

Any modification or suggestion to this text, please leave your comments. Additionally, I would be adding a small note in the instructions of {{Infobox martial artist}} where it says "style, the name of the martial art style practised" that would say: "Do not use this parameter in biographical articles of MMA fighters. Please read WP:MMA for further details." Jfgslo (talk) 00:07, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I have updated the text in the front page per the consensus. Jfgslo (talk) 02:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Just look at how sad this "discussion" is. There used to be 100 editors who signed up for the MMA project. Now it's literally two guys who want to delete all the landing pages. Funny to imagine what wiki would be like if everything were run like MMA. 174.31.166.185 (talk) 21:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Look over the archives of discussions on this page. Regardless of the number of people who put their names on the WikiProject participants list, it is rare that more than five people participate in discussions here. That is what is sad to me, that people don't want to participate in discussions and let their voice be heard. --TreyGeek (talk) 15:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

A lot of good editors (and to be fair, some bad ones too), left during the two-year edit war because of all the crazy drama. The WP MMA community is going to take a long, long time to rebuild. Complaining about how small it's gotten doesn't help right now, as long as the people who do communicate are both reasonable and knowledgeable of the subject matter. Beansy (talk) 05:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• • If five people who have insight into MMA more or less agree on something, there's no reason to keep harping on the issue. Compare that to what it's been reduced to of people who don't know jack about the sport exercising their bit of authority. This sort of incompetence is self-reinforcing, because it's a waste of time for knowledgeable editors to compete with politicking idiocy. 174.31.166.185 (talk) 10:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Jewels events

Considering the current consensus regarding the notability of MMA events and the current change in the Jewels organization, I was wondering, what would be the best way to handle the existing Jewels event articles? Specifically, I would like to know if it would be better to to merge all Jewels events in a single article a la Invicta FC events without the flags and what type of information should be saved in the merged article. I'm willing to merge them myself, but I would like some pointers in order to try to make the bundled article as good as possible with the available data. Jfgslo (talk) 00:48, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

• I would suggest merging them into annual omnibus articles, for a total of five articles, with all the current existing info (background and match results, and ask someone else about flags I guess). Things relating to the history of the fed itself, and developments like their relationship with Invicta and their merging into Deep, can be primarily detailed in the page for the organization itself. It's not like they're terribly long articles to begin with after a cursory glance, and the ones I looked at were surprisingly very well-sourced. Beansy (talk) 10:06, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I will give it a try like that, first with the 2009 events in an userspace draft titled "2009 Jewels events". I'll let you know once I have finished it so that other editors can comment on it to try to improve it the best I can and then the other years. Jfgslo (talk) 05:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is the draft: User:Jfgslo/sandbox/2008–09 Jewels events. Please let me know your comments to improve it. I would like to draw your attention to a few points which I believe could be improved.

1. Background: I'm not sure if this is the correct way to handle all pre-event information. That is, I think it is ok, but perhaps it could be improved.
2. Results: Opening card and Main card are how these events are divided in the promotion regularly. Note that I'm not using the same format as other lists of MMA events from American organizations because Jewels regularly mixed MMA with amateur, kickboxing, shoot boxing and grappling matches, and that's not counting the multiple tournaments and matches with special ground and pound rules. Also, the order in which the matches are presented is the same as the one they were presented, that is, first the under card going up until the main event, which I believe is the reverse order of what Invicta FC events does.
3. Account of matches: Starting the second event, a good deal of matches have a short account of the fight. I do not know if they should be kept and added in matches that do not have them or if they should be removed altogether. UFC 94 has accounts instead of results, UFC 148 has both and Invicta FC events has only the results.
4. External links & references: Are external links too many or too little? Should results be less referenced or are they okay with the fight accounts? All external links that aren't working can easily be restored with {{Wayback}}, but I must know which ones are worth keeping first.

Please, let me know your comments on how to improve this draft, because, once it is finished, I will follow it as a guideline for further Jewels events. Jfgslo (talk) 19:32, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• That page looks like ass; forced and hard to navigate. Might as well make format of every event disjointed like the UFC 2013 page. 75.172.12.104 (talk) 07:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - While I wouldn't be so blunt as out IP buddy, I do feel this format has many flaws. The number of references is far too high, especially since many of them say the same thing as the others. (I had taken a crack at making the Jewels events into an omnibus months ago, but the amount of time it would take to reform the articles was too much.) Also, accounts of the matches would be better placed in paragraph form like in UFC 94 rather than after each match. It's more aesthetically pleasing and makes the page look less jumbled. I also feel the results can still be listed in the {{MMAevent}} format, but with footnotes denoting any special parameters of the bouts. Then there are smaller aesthetic issues as well, like the "Match No. 1, Match No. 2" clarifications as well as the fight camp of each fighter, both of which I feel are unnecessary and could be covered if say a particular camp goes unbeaten in an event. But I applaud you for taking on this issue rather than just deleting all the pages, as it's clear someone put a lot of time and effort into compiling the links and information in the original event articles. Luchuslu (talk) 11:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• There's no way to make the page useful with that much info in the same view, that's why nobody else on the entire web is dumb enough to do it. The number of refs is necessary, and worked perfectly fine on the event pages which are in line with everything else sports related on wiki. The only problem is that decisions here in MMA like the one Jfgslo is following have nothing to do with merits of presenting info. Ridiculously bad pages are what result when solutions are politics first and substance second. 75.172.12.104 (talk) 00:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Grappling records

Should grappling records have their own record table? For example, the way they are at Ayaka Hamasaki's article. It seems to me that no one really knows how to handle grappling records since there appears to be nothing written regarding the notability of grappling events. Take for example Kyra Gracie's article and Marcelo Garcia's article. My personal opinion is that grappling doesn't seem to have notability like other sports and therefore should not be considered for record tables or notability by itself. That is, winning a grappling tournament or having a successful grappling record does not mean that an athlete deserves an article based on these facts alone. I ask this because Garcia's article doesn't seem to have many third-party and non-routine coverage sources to substantiate the need for a stand-alone article, much less the table record there. I've looked at WP:WPMA and I cannot find any guideline on this type of activity.

I would like to know if having the grappling record in an MMA biographical article should be acceptable. While in the past I was inclined to say so, I now believe that it should not be acceptable and these record tables should be removed since grappling as a sport doesn't seem to have enough notability merits to justify the inclusion of a grappling record of an MMA fighter, even more when there barely are third-party sources that back up the record (that is to say, these record seem to be generated with information from primary sources instead of checking them with other records). Jfgslo (talk) 01:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The issue with grappling records is that, to my knowledge, there isn't a site out there with reliable data for the number of bouts and the records of each fighter. That being said, the same issue exists in Kickboxing and other martial arts. I'd say they should stay if the information is verifiable, but unsourced tables are worth very little. As for the notability of grappling, it falls under WP:WPMA/N. Fighters like Garcia clearly pass this standard as he is a "world champion of a significant international organization." In this case, Abu Dhabi Combat Club. Many of these pages could use more secondary sourcing, but these events garner enough coverage to find the material. Luchuslu (talk) 00:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

That is part of the issue. I'm not saying that a grappling martial artist doesn't have notability or that grappling itself is less notable than other martial arts. Why I'm saying is that this notability doesn't justify the actual records. To exemplify this, I would compare submission grappling competitions with any type of wrestling competition. No one doubts the notability of wrestling or of famous wrestlers like Aleksandr Karelin or Kurt Angle, but note that wrestlers do not keep a table records of their matches despite that wrestling has (arguably) more coverage and notability than submission grappling. As such, I do not think that it is justified to keep record tables of submission grappling in biographical articles since grappling is not really a professional sport in the way that kickboxing is. It is only now with Metamoris that grappling is going that way. And, when I say professional sport, I mean it in the sense of the distinction of athletes who make their living by practicing the sport in a competitive way, not how good they are, like a professional boxer like Mike Tyson versus an amateur boxer like Teófilo Stevenson, who both are notable and deserve their articles, but the need to keep records of their fights is not. I would argue that only ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship matches could be considered of a high enough level to perhaps deserve a record table. And that is not taking into account the wide range of rules in different types of grappling competitions starting with those with Gi and those with no-Gi, BJJ, Sambo, Judo, etc. See what I'm getting at? There is no standard for which type of competition should be recorded or not. It could be from a local BJJ tournament to ADCC.

I do believe that both Kyra Gracie and Marcelo Garcia are notable as grapplers and deserve an article, but I question the inclusion of Garcia’s record table, which isn't referenced, and would favor instead Gracie's type of article, because, from my understanding, the record table is supposed to reflect what's written within the text of an article instead of being an an indiscriminate collection of information, which I believe is not appropriate for Wikipedia per the paragraph of excessive listings of statistics at WP:IINFO. This is something that wrestling articles do not have, as they limit themselves to the accomplishments of a wrestler such as a world championship or an olympic medal. Same with notable martial artists from other non-professional combat sports like Pierre Guénette and Steven López from Taekwondo or Teddy Riner and Ronda Rousey from Judo.

As this is an extensive issue beyond MMA, what I question are not submission grappling biographical articles and their content but the need to include grappling records in biographical articles of MMA fighters. That is why I commented first on Ayaka Hamasaki, who has participated in grappling tournaments, but which I are not really world tournaments, despite that they can be referenced. I would imagine that Josh Barnett and Fabrício Werdum could have their own record table. But, do articles of notable MMA fighters really need to keep these statistics when the notability of the fighters comes from their accomplishments in MMA? Is it really appropriate for Wikipedia to list the grappling record tables in MMA biographical articles when fighters aren't particularly notable for their grappling achievements (see Alistair Overeem)? Jfgslo (talk) 03:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd say that as long as the information is sourced and accurate, it can be included. It's part of their career, even if it's not what makes them notable. But for the sake of consistency, just listing accomplishments in notable events like what Wrestling and Judo do would be best since not all grapplers have easily-accessable record tables. A format kind of liek I did for Hidehiko Yoshida with well-sourced prose about his judo career and a table for his medals would probably be best. Luchuslu (talk) 12:58, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I like how Yoshida's article looks and I believe that it is the most appropriate format for MMA fighters with notable grappling achievements. If no one objects, I think I should remove Hamasaki's and Overeem's grappling record tables, seeing as they really haven't accomplished anything in international grappling tournaments and it seems disproportionate considering that wrestling records of more notability from other MMA fighters aren't kept. Jfgslo (talk) 01:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Considering their tables aren't sourced and the events are non-notable (ADCC trials happen all the time), I don't have any objections. Luchuslu (talk) 03:23, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I have done it. I would imagine that there is no need to establish some guideline about this at the moment since these grappling record tables appear to be the exception, not the general practice, and, from a quick glance, the notable MMA fighters with really notable grappling credentials don't appear to have these grappling record tables, so I suspect most editors won't really try to add them anyway. Jfgslo (talk) 05:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course they should have their own separate table as it is part of the fighter's history as a competitor. Such statistical information is by its nature what one expects to find in an encyclopedia. --24.112.187.219 (talk) 22:44, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, no, such statistics are not part of the nature of a good quality general encyclopedia. Please read WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. Wikipedia is not a sports almanac. I wouldn't mind seeing a very detailed coverage of statistical information at the MMA Wiki, but such content is generally not appropriate for Wikipedia if it is not referenced by reliable third-party secondary sources that are beyond routine sports coverage. Jfgslo (talk) 19:41, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Per our first pillar at WP:FIVE, we are a combination of general encyclopedia, specialized encyclopedias, gazettes, etc. The BEST quality encyclopedias feature such statistical information as it easily backed in multiple reliable third-party secondary sources such as mainstream international newspapers, especially in the U.S., Brazil, and Japan which means it is not merely "routine" in nature. There is no valid reason why Wikipedia would not in part be a sports almanac. We should not be narrow-minded in our thinking about scope of coverage when he have a unique chance in history to provide the most comprehensive and therefore worthwhile encyclopedia in human history. Anyone not interested in such information is not forced to read it and can easily gloss over it to whatever does interest them in the article. If such information actually does bother someone, then God help them, seriously... --24.112.187.219 (talk) 22:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

From the very first pillar at WP:FIVE it says that, while it combines information from several sources, Wikipedia still isn't an indiscriminate collection of information, which sports stats in a non-specialized encyclopedia regularly are. Britannica is a quality general encyclopedia and you won't find such sports stats there (check Mike Tyson's article there for example), so there is no justification for Wikipedia, a regular encyclopedia and not a specialized sport encyclopedia, to have them either. Also note that such stats for grappling aren't backed up in mainstream international newspapers, so there is no reason to add them either because Wikipedia isn't a a collection of source documents. If that were the case, any individual professional soccer match from almost any country has much more mainstream international coverage and would be far more deserving to be recorded than non-professional grappling stats. We are not supposed to be open minded when content falls into WP:NOT and serves no encyclopedic purpose. If there is no criteria to what actually should included in Wikipedia, then there is no reason for Wikipedia to be an encyclopedia. Using the logic that any content can be skipped by those not interested, then any content could be added, from opinion pieces to graphic content outside of context, and Wikipedia wouldn't be an encyclopedia. That is why in WP:NOTEVERYTHING it's stated: In any encyclopedia, information cannot be included solely because it is true or useful. An encyclopedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject. Jfgslo (talk) 01:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing indiscriminate about providing statistics about the careers of major fighters that provide insights into their development as athletes. We are not saying that Wikipedia should list our junior high school wrestling records after all. Wikipedia is NOT just a regular encyclopedia. It is quite explicitly a paperless encyclopedia that combines specialized encyclopedias with general encyclopedias. On a side note, various forms of grappling and wrestling in general have been in the news considerably lately. See the tenth entry at this article for how the whole Olympics fiasco has been getting widespread coverage lately. --24.112.187.219 (talk) 22:31, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Vote to make the World Series of Fighting a Second-tier MMA Organization on WP:MMANOT

Anyone interested come by the MMA Notability page and let your voices be heard. click here Luchuslu (talk) 15:33, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Event Lists

The event lists were pretty fragmented, i updated them all to the same format as the List of UFC events. The only exceptions that i can remember were that some did not have any attendance info so i left that column out, and some did list broadcast, so i left that in. Also pride had a column for "Japanese name" that i didn't have the heart to remove. Every promotion listed on WP:MMATIER now has an event list, i'm sure some others do also but i haven't checked that yet to link them to the category (see below).

I also created a Category for the lists, Category:Mixed martial arts events lists and added it to all the event lists.

Last i updated WP:MMATIER. I combined the mens and womens tables, changed the "Total Events" column to link to the lists, and added a source column so everything can be more easily referenced and updated.

Kevlar (talk) 16:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)