Talk:Heavy metal music
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No mention of the new york dolls, will david johanson ever get the credit he deserves. Someone should really explain why the vocals in heavy metal can be hard to understand. I would gladly but I don't know why they are. They should also explain the different singing styles and why they aren't just all clean vocals.
--Arm
Real metal doesn't have rapping vocals or DJs. Just that nu-metal crap that survives only because of MTV. Nu-metals is just a fad thats almost died out and not as established style of metal as say, power metal. --Arm
I've been adding material to nu metal, and it occured to me that perhaps an article at metal (music) would be a good kind of index. It would descibe the evolution of heavy metal and newer brands of it, and talk about how the more traditional styles of the '80s etc. have influenced the newer bands, and vice versa (eg. Metallica's song for Mission Impossible: simplier guitars in verses etc.).
It would need to talk about:
- Heavy metal (music) as a start point
- the progression of metal through the influence of hip-hop; introduction of rap and other vocal styles, and DJs
- crossover, rap metal, rap rock, etc.
- the use of distorted guitar in pop and techno; can be attributed to influence of rock and heavy metal
-- Sam
Shouldn't Hair metal be covered or at least linked to? AxelBoldt 06:43 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
- The existing text seems to call hair metal "glam metal." Which perhaps is a more neutral name for it, but I added a line pointing to the hair metal article to that section. -- IHCOYC
There doesnt seem to be a category that covers bands like Suicidal Tenencies and Sepulture - is it thrash? speed metal? Htaccess
- Both bands fir under the thrash metal category, though Suicidal Tendencies were also regarded as a "crossover" band (between hardcore punk and metal), while Sepultura are sometimes considered a death metal band. Thrash metal and speed metal are synonyms -- Jim Regan 03:24, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The author says the following about the word "love": "...compare the entire song list of Iron Maiden's many albums which will offer not one use of the word to the knowledge of this contributor..." I guess this is a memory slip of the author during the typing since they do have the song "wasting love" on the album "Fear of the Dark", and also on two live albums: "a real dead one" and "live in donington". This obvously denies that sentence. But, to make things clear, this is not a heartbreaking sweet (i.e. commercial) love song, it is a very dark and soul-tearing song that dennounces and critics the hypocrisy seen in human relations, so the author's point is sustained in essence. By the way, this is an intense and well written article about Metal. Thanks ! congrats, Chuck
Great article. One substantive comment: Calling punk rock a branch of heavy metal needs some support. Punk's stylized primitivism and DIY ethic contradicts heavy metal. Punkers certainly hated Motley Crue.
- I agree. Tuf-Kat 07:46, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- I'd say what was meant is that modern punk owes as much to heavy metal as to the original punk bands, though the opposite is also true. There's certainly been a lot of cross-pollination between the genres, though more with hardcore punk than "regular" punk.
- There are several genres which are the direct result of mixing punk and metal; Motorhead and Thin Lizzie were considered acceptable to many British punks; NWOBHM bands played punk influenced riffs mixed with metal influenced lead guitar - Iron Maiden are probably the best example of this; thrash was originally NWOBHM played faster, but Metallica and Slayer took on board punk influences for their second releases, and became metal bands it was OK for punks to like (Green Day play snippets of Metallica live, Sum 41 play Slayer etc); grindcore mixed death metal with punk - Napalm Death's best known song is their cover of Dead Kennedy's "Nazi Punks Fuck Off"; grunge was started by a bunch of punk bands who also listened to Black Sabbath; Black Flag and Discharge started off as punk bands, but grew their hair long, and started playing music that sounded more like metal; Ministry was an electronic "band" started by a punk, who came back to punk and moved on to metal; Sepultura's early audience consisted mostly of skinheads; they've gone on to work with Jello Biafra, and Chaos A.D. sounds more like a hardcore punk record than a metal album etc. etc. -- Jim Regan 23:38, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The beginning of the article claims that heavy metal lasted twenty years. This could maybe use additional clarification. Just to pick one example, why is nu-metal not included? (I'm not saying this should be changed, just that the reasons for that time-frame, even if generally accepted, should be explained).
I removed the bit about not understanding the influence of Bach on heavy metal meaning that one does not understand Bach in general because this doesn't make any sense to me. If any cares to articulate a defense of this claim, feel free and we can discuss it. Some of the other stuff about the relationship between heavy metal and classical music struck me as POV, relying upon the idea that classical music is uniquely able to express humanistic ideas and that heavy metal is sole modern exponent of this ability. Many, such as myself, disagree with this and don't know how to articulate the idea in a neutral way.
There are some other opinions in quotes which are uncredited. These have been deleted barring future attribution.Tuf-Kat 07:46, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- I don't get the Bach thing at all. He did a lot of chromatic stuff, and "Fugue in Dm" gets played a lot by metal guitarists, but I'd be clutching at straws to come up with any reason for singling out Bach - the main motif from "In the Hall of the Mountain King" could easily be a Slayer riff, for example, and "Flight of the Bumblebee" has the sort of descending chromatic run that many metal bands use frequently. -- Jim Regan 23:38, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
This curious text appeared in the article body:
<style> hr { display: inline; -moz-box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0 0.1% 0 0.1%; font-size: -moz-initial !important; } hr:before { white-space: pre; content: "\A"; } hr:after { white-space: pre; content: "\A"; } </style>
It appears to be in a programming language that I do not understand. It displays as raw source code in Mozilla 1.3.1. I deleted it so that it does not appear in the article itself, but I am preserving it here in case it does something important or needful that ought to be restored. -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:04, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
This thing had lots of good contributions but no structure; I've sectionized and made a first attempt at a framework. I didn't delete anything and at this point haven't added much, so some areas make more sense than others, and there is still some repetition. Perhaps someone can move the album cover graphics to more sensible places in the text. Jgm 15:47, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The Beatles Yer Blues
I believe The Beatles song "Yer Blues" should be added to The Beatles list of songs that influenced Heavy Metal. Sure, Helter Skelter has the riffs, the drumming, and especially the bass guitar, but most of its Heavy Metal acclaim is due to Charles Manson fascination with it. Yer Blues as performed by the Dirty Mac (John Lennon, Eric Clapton, Keith Richards, and Mitch Mitchell from The Jimi Hendrix Experience) on the Rolling Stone's Rock N Roll Circus is definitely one of the first Heavy Metal songs. Some of the bootlegs of the band rehearsing the song are amazing. You got Lennon's bluesy, depressing song with lines like "The eagle picks my eye, the worm he licks my bone, I feel so suicidal just like Dylan's Mr Jones." Lennon's voice is angst driven and you can really feel him yelling, then you got Clapton's awesome guitar solos, Keith Richard's amazing bass line that is both bluesy but able to find a melody, and of course Mitch Mitchell's drumming is heavy.
Shouldn't we add a link to Grindcore in the genre table? I'm not doing it myself because I'm somewhat new here and don't know if this has already been debated, but if there's no objections I think we should; I know grind is not strictly metal, but it's close enough (at least as much as nu metal, IMHO) and would be useful to those learning about the genre. Lets not be genre purists, I say. Thrash sure wouldn't be what it is without the punk influences, and yet I don't see many questioning thrash's "metalness". MikeCapone Jan 22, 2004, 00:50 (UTC).
- Mike: Go for it. Being new is no excuse! Jgm 01:14, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I agree, as long as you add it to all the pages that have the table (i.e. everything currently linked to from within the table). Tuf-Kat 01:17, Jan 23, 2004 (UTC)
- Alright, I will. Hopefully this will lead a bit more traffic to the Grindcore page and encourage people to work on it, because right now it is lagging behind the other heavy metal pages in quality. MikeCapone Jan 23, 2004, 03:54 (UTC)
- Well, I did it but when I only had a couple to do I realized that not all the tables on the pages of the sub-genres were the same. Some are missing some genre; I'll go over all of them later this week to make sure they are all consistent with each other. MikeCapone Jan 23, 2004, 04:30 (UTC)
These are the trends currently identified on the timeline of trends in music. I thought I'd collect them here to see if anybidy wants to comment on the selection. Tuf-Kat 00:23, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
1968 in music
- Music of the United States
- Blue Cheer begins recording, and become legends of the American proto-heavy metal scene
1969 in music
- Music of the United Kingdom
- Led Zeppelin's first album, Led Zeppelin, is released; it is an enormously influential psychedelic blues-rock
1970 in music
- Music of the United Kingdom
- T. Rex's Ride a White Swan is considered the beginning of true glam rock
- Black Sabbath begins recording a dark and gloomy form of heavy metal, laying the groundwork for the genre's intense diversification by the late 80s
1971 in music
- Music of the United Kingdom
- Black Sabbath's Paranoid and Led Zeppelin's Four Symbols are enormously influential albums in the development of heavy metal
- Music of the United States
- Funkadelic releases Maggot Brain, an early fusion of soul, funk and heavy metal; releases from Roberta Flack (Roberta Flack & Donny Hathaway), Isaac Hayes (Black Moses) and Sly & the Family Stone (There's a Riot Goin' On) similarly influence the development of a more pop-oriented funk and soul
- Alice Cooper creates a distinctive kind of glam and heavy metal-influenced shock rock
1972 in music
- Music of the United Kingdom
- David Bowie releases Ziggy Stardust, which marks the height of glam rock and is an important influence on the development of punk rock; similarly influential albums by Lou Reed (Transformer) and Mott the Hoople (All the Young Dudes) are also released
- Deep Purple releases Machine Head, one of the first pure heavy metal albums
1975 in music
- Music of the United Kingdom
- Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" and its accompanying music video revolutionize the possibilities of progressive pop
1976 in music
- International trends
- Hard rock and heavy metal bands like Aerosmith (Rocks), AC/DC (High Voltage), Blue Öyster Cult (Agents of Fortune) and Judas Priest (Sin After Sin) release landmark albums that gain unprecedented success for heavy metal
1978 in music
- International trends
- Important releases cement the sound of heavy metal and begin to move it towards the mainstream; this includes albums from Blue Öyster Cult (Some Enchanted Evening), Van Halen (Van Halen, Judas Priest (Stained Class, Killing Machine), Ace Frehley (Ace Frehley), Rush (Hemispheres) and Styx (Pieces of Eight)
1981 in music
- Music of the United States
- Venom's Welcome to Hell is the beginning of black metal
1983 in music
- Music of the United States
- Several bands important in the future development and popularization of thrash metal form, including Megadeth, Metallica and the Red Hot Chili Peppers; Metallica's Kill 'Em All was especially important, defining speed metal
- heavy metal begins its run of mainstream chart success with hair metal and pop bands like Mötley Crüe (Shout at the Devil), Whitesnake (Saints & Sinners), Van Halen (Diver Down), W.A.S.P. (Animal (F**k like a Beast))), Quiet Riot (Metal Health) and Def Leppard (Pyromania) being most popular.
- Suicidal Tendencies fuses hardcore punk with heavy metal
1984 in music
- International trends
- Thrash-influenced bands like Dokken (Tooth and Nail), Celtic Frost (Morbid Tales), Hellhammer (Apocalyptic Raids 1990 A.D.), Mercyful Fate (Don't Break the Oath) and Helloween (Helloween) come to dominate the European metal scene
- Music of the United States
- Stryper's The Yellow and Black Attack is the first Christian metal album and sets the stage for later Christian artists in punk, hip hop and other genres
- Releases from Run-D.M.C. and the Beastie Boys begin fusing hip hop and rock and roll/heavy metal
- Van Halen's "Jump" is the first heavy metal song to top Billboard's pop charts
1985 in music
- International trends
- Aerosmith begins its return to popular acceptance with Done with Mirrors
1987 in music
- International trends
- Death's Scream Bloody Gore helps to define the burgeoning death metal scene
- Music of the United Kingdom
- Napalm Death forms grindcore
- Music of the United States
- Guns 'N Roses releases Appetite for Destruction and dominate the American music scene for the year with an arena rock and thrash metal-influenced sound; in Europe, Celtic Frost's (Into the Pandemonium) influence and sales peak
1989 in music
- International trends
- Black metal emerges out of thrash with bands like Anthrax (State of Euphoria) and Sepultura (Beneath the Remains)
- Music of the United States
- Bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers (Mother's Milk), Faith No More (The Real Thing) and Fishbone (Truth and Soul) bring funk metal to its commercial pinnacle. Many of these bands, along with Anthrax, Ice-T and others also fuse hardcore hip hop with thrash metal and similar influences
1990 in music
- International trends
- Paradise Lost emerges at the forefront of the doom metal scene
- Music of the United States
- Hip hop and indie rock begin to influence metal, with pivotal releases by Primus (Frizzle Fry), Jane's Addiction (Ritual de lo Habitual), Anthrax (Persistence of Time), Sisters of Mercy (Vision Thing), Pantera (Cowboys from Hell) and Megadeth (Rust in Peace) revitalizing the genre
1991
- International trends
- A distinctively Scandinavian death metal scene emerges, especially in Norway at first, soon extending to Sweden and Finland with bands like Entombed (Clandestine), Amorphis (Dismet of Soul) and Therion (Beyond Sanctorum)
1992
- International trends
- Kyuss (Blues for the Red Sun) and Monster Magnet (Spine of God) help invent stoner metal
- Music of the United States
- Rage Against the Machine debuts an energetic fusion of heavy metal, punk rock and hip hop
1993
- International trends
- Radiohead (Pablo Honey), Stereolab (Transient Random Noisebursts with Announcements) and Tool (Undertow) release critically acclaimed debuts showcasing a new sound in hard rock and heavy metal
1995
- International trends
- Power metal begins to break into the mainstream in continental Europe, with bands like Stratovarius (Fourth Dimension) and Tad Morose (Sender of Thoughts) being popular
- Beck (Odelay), Tool (Aenima), Sepultura (Roots) and Korn (Life Is Peachy) release metal-influenced albums that dominate the year's sound in popular music
2001
- Music of the United States
- Important nu metal releases from System of a Down (Toxicity) and Tool (Lateralus) define the burgeoning scene; Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory is the top-selling album of the year in the United States.
While trying to find where White Zombie fit into the heavy metal heiarchy, I searched for Industrial. I eventually found it under Alternative Metal but I noticed that alt-metal is not found in every instance of the table, although it is in a couple. Is the table not a boilerplate entry then? Could it please be updated to include this importance faction of the heavy metal universe? TimothyPilgrim 02:47, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
- The table should be the same in all the articles in which it appears. Feel free to fix it! Tuf-Kat 07:35, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)
- I created a new MediaWiki message for the seriesbox: MediaWiki:Heavy metal music, all you need to do is include {{msg:heavy_metal_music}} in the article and the article is transcluded across all pages when changes are made. No need to update each individual page! See the electronic music series and other examples. --Lexor|Talk 09:23, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks! That's exactly what it needed. MikeCapone feb 27, 2004.
- That's exactly what I was hoping someone could do! TimothyPilgrim 19:26, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)