Talk:Cat

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Cats are a common companion animal in Europe and North America

they are also a very common companion animal also in South America, and probably also in Middle East, Asia and Oceania. The "in Europe and North America" should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.189.152.112 (talk) 13:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The intro image

What about this one although the tail is not shown.

Can we replace the current image showing a complex background with a decent one? Of course, all cats are lovely, but well..I don't think the image is a best shot to represent cats.---Caspian blue 01:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Totaly agree, i was only thinking the other day we should have a better one. ZooPro 03:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, my attempt to replace with the better image (cute as well) on the right is reverted by Howcheng, but well..looking into Talk:Cat/Lead photo, I do not think two people's discussion two years ago does warrant to keep the image at this time. If people do not think the new one is better than the old one, I will keep looking for other images.--Caspian blue 07:45, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The current image suffers from low contrast, but the image you tried has problems too; the whiteness makes the neck and chin hard to distinguish from each other, it doesn't show any of the tail, and the cat isn't looking at the camera. I do like the background, though. Abductive (reasoning) 07:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the current cat image does not have the distinctiveness of the neck either. I've never thought of the cat's glazing in the new photo is a problem. Although the new image does not show the tail, well, it was taken in Japan, and not every cat have the long tail enough to show front such as Japanese bobtail. However, I accept your criticism, so that means I will try to find other images.--Caspian blue 08:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If it weren't for the neck/chin thing I would have supported the change. Seeing a tail is not crucial to me, and the gaze isn't a deal-breaker either. Surely there are thousands of pictures of cats on Flickr with CC-BY or CC-BY-SA licenses? Abductive (reasoning) 08:16, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I've been searching for "an ideal portrait of cat" past few days, but well, it is hard to find images showing its tail, whole figure, gazing (closing their eyes while everything is perfect), and cuteness altogether....---Caspian blue 08:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Are there any images that weren't as cute? I'll bet they are cute enough. Abductive (reasoning) 08:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the cat of in the current image looks less cute in my eyes. :-)--Caspian blue 08:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I cannot believe someone reverted it to a inferior image. crikey have people gone made with consensus, be bold, it improves the article and looks 100% better then the old image. Granted a tail and defined jaw line would be better but we work with what we have at the present. and the user who reverted it didnt even follow through with a discussion on the talk page, that shows how little they really cared. i think WP:DICK and WP:BOLD come into play here ZooPro 12:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• Perhaps the image could be lightly manipulated to define the jawline? Abductive (reasoning) 23:16, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
  • I think those who reverted certainly weren't WP:DICK. There has been discussion about what should be a proper representative image for this article, and this is what the consensus of editors (back then, a rather large consensus if I remember) decided upon. So I would expect anyone wishing to change the image to first gather a new consensus on the talk page before changing it.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
    • ZooPro, you could assume good faith better. It was 12:10 AM local time, and I was tired after having spent a long day doing Halloween-related activities, so I went to bed instead of starting a discussion on the talk page. howcheng {chat} 23:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The perennial problem of the image

I've reverted the change of image. Per WP:BRD. ZooPro was bold, I've reverted, the next stage is that we discuss. As far as I recall, there was a long debate about the image in the past, and the one of the tabby cat achieved consensus to be displayed. Until there is consensus that it should be changed, it stays. No doubt many of us have cats, and we all think that our cat is the cutest etc but this issue has been discussed and consensus reached. Of course, consensus may change over time, but this needs more than a few people to achieve. Mjroots (talk) 12:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, now the discussion begins. ZooPro 13:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

What about a composite image like on Ashkenazi Jews or fungus..? Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Or some articles constantly replace the main image, cycling through a number of them once a month or so, thus no one feels slighted, and shows a variety of cats. - IanCheesman (talk) 19:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Without picking a particular image, I feel that we should first decide what the image needs to portray. I note that some editors think that the cobbles as a background are "cluttered". Colourwise, I feel that all black or all white would not be good, apart from that any colour. Photo really needs to show all of a cat, including a tail. A neutral background with the cat well contrasted would probably be a good thing. Mjroots (talk) 20:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I think either a montage or rotating images is fine (and get a pool of say 12 images for both/either). Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Both of those ideas work for me as well. howcheng {chat} 23:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not to disagree (rotating images is a good idea), but can we even find twelve acceptable images? Abductive (reasoning) 23:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

We-ell, why not list some candidates and see how we go and what we need. Casliber (talk · contribs)

00:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Does it even matter, geez. TheClerksWell (talk) 17:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Candidates

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  79

--Caspian blue 00:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Added a whole bunch more, hope you don't mind. Remember, whether we rotate or gallery or collage, none of the pics have to be "perfect", as if such a thing exists. - IanCheesman (talk) 01:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Since this is purportedly a search for a representative specimen of an "ordinary" cat, I've added a nothing-special, garden-variety grey cat. I would suggest keeping the image selected as simple as possible, with as little background and/or activity as possible. P.S. - I think there are already plenty of pictures to choose from. Seduisant (talk) 01:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

'Warning: Cat overload!!! But seriously, here are some of the things that were discussed last time to help us decide on an appropriate pic:

• The cat represented should be a "typical" cat, i.e. a domestic cat rather than any specific breed
• The cat should be presented so that the whole cat is photographed, with no parts hidden or cropped out, as much as possible
• The picture should be in proper focus, with good detail and background should be appropriate/not distract from the cat

I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two criteria, but those should suffice to winnow the list down a bit... :) --Ramdrake (talk) 01:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that is alot of cats....OTOH, if we do have collage of, say, 6 or more cat images, then one each of a few high profile breeds becomes okay i.e. the "many faces of cat" - eg a siamese, and a persian as well as several colours. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree with the "typical" cat criterion. Perhaps a better term should be "representative". So a Siamese might be okay, since there are so many of them, but maybe no good photo exists since their faces are so dark. Breeds like the Manx are not representative, and I will say that many of the long haireds don't seem appropriate. But the emphasis on "typical" is leading us to show cats that look more like the wild Felis silvestris rather than the domesticated Felis catus. Abductive (reasoning) 05:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

"Representative" is fine. However, all purebred cats together (all breeds) represents less than 10% of the domestic cat population. Therefore, representativity of any single purebred cat could be called in question. That was my point. Please feel free to agree or disagree with it.--Ramdrake (talk) 05:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm just thinking ahead; if a pic has everything else, the fact that it is of a Burmilla should not exclude it. I mean, a Burmilla looks like a mutt to me, and is representative of many cats. Conversely, a Persian, with its pushed-in face, is not representative. Abductive (reasoning) 06:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Being logical, if the pic has everything else, I wouldn't vote against it either, provided the cat doesn't have too unusual an aspect (rule out Manx, Bobtails, Persians, Siamese and all Rexes). However, I'd also have a tough time with any cat having colour points for the lead image. So, I guess we mostly agree.  ;) --Ramdrake (talk) 06:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments

• I blackball File:Two orange tabby cats greeting by rubbing-Hisashi-01.jpg (#17) since it is too horizontal, and at the scale it would appear in the infobox the cats would be too small. I don't like File:Laperm LH blacktortie white.jpg (#4) much, cat has weird back fur thing going. Abductive (reasoning) 01:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
• No. 5 would be good after cropping. --Dodo bird (talk) 02:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
• We should first narrow down the images among the 80 something images. My pick of 12 images are 1, 2, 3, 5, 13, 45, 63, 72, 76, 77, 78, 79. However, I can change my opinion, if other good images are brought up.--Caspian blue 04:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Those are not my cats, or my photos, but I uploaded some of them to Commons from Flickr images.--Caspian blue 14:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
• My top 12 (odd number, but no problem with that here) are : #1, 8, 20, 21, 24, 30, 33, 37, 38, 47, 51, and 79. Obviously, some of those choices would need cropping, and before anyone askes, I didn't take any of those pics, nor are any of them my cats ;) - IanCheesman (talk) 07:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
• So we don't lose momentum, I would have no problem with #s 5, 33 (if cropped), 39, 45, and 77. Why don't we start rotating with number 5, and when people complain, recruit them to find more images? Abductive (reasoning) 20:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
• By the way, 48 and 64 are the same image, and 45, 75 and 76 are the same cat, as are 74 and 77. Abductive (reasoning) 20:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
• I like 5, 36, 51, 57, 62, 68, 72, 76, and 78. I think 36 is my favorite. --William S. Saturn (talk) 06:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
• I pick number 39 for the lede. Nice pose and color. 51 would be my second pick. Bobisbob2 (talk) 22:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Are cats moody? My cat be an angel and othertimes a devil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Horselover25 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Ideal pose

I think this is close to ideal pose for cat portrait, so the whole body including the tail is shown, while the face is toward the camera. However, it is rare to find this pose...--Caspian blue 01:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• However, the quality of the picture isn't too good (grainy), the original seems very much to be a drawing rather than a picture, and it depicts a specific breed (Siamese, old-style) rather than a generic cat.--Ramdrake (talk) 01:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I do not think that this picture is an ideal image for the article, but just brought it for reference on "ideal pose" for cat portrait in "my opinion". So the breed is irrelevant. :-) Caspian blue 02:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that the pose is "ideal". :) --Ramdrake (talk) 02:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

37 is close to an ideal pose, except that it's not facing the camera. Joyous! | Talk 02:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

61 is very close to your ideal pose, but it is a black cat.--Caspian blue 05:32, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I like that pose. Now, there's millions of cats out there, so it shouldn't be too hard to get a photo of a cat in that or a similar pose, with a fairly neutral background, should it? Mjroots (talk) 06:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem is, even thought I saw over 1000 images of cats on Flickr, I could not find any single one that everybody would say "OK, it is our guy".Recognition is a first step to resolve the case, but well, unless people here try harder, we would eventually just have to be content with the current unsatisfying cat image with the complex background.--Caspian blue 17:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Time to start stalking some local cats i suppose. Maybe i should take a photo of one of our tigers at work and we can use that :) they are conditioned to "pose" for the camera. Just a thought. ZooPro 13:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Stalking the local cats sounds a good idea. After all, you can't have too many cat photos on Commons, can you? Not sure about the tigers though. Mjroots (talk) 16:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this is an ideal pose. You can see the whole cat (head, body and tail).Kerisnook (talk) 21:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Keri

Collage

Collage of 6 cats.
No. 51, 45, 78
72, 79, 5

Since there seems to be disputes about which image to use, why not use a collage similar to the one used here? --William S. Saturn (talk) 05:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment. However to make a collage, we still should also select fine images among the candidates first. So please pick your favorite cat images.--Caspian blue 05:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, we have now 10 of the loads of pics that have been picked by at least two people. Does anyone have problems with any of the following - #1, 5, 33, 45, 51, 72, 76, 77, 78, 79? If nobody posts a problem with these, I would suggest someone make a collage of 5 or 6 of these (for instance, probably only one of 45, 76, and 77), with further discussion and changes to be made some time in the future - IanCheesman (talk) 08:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I replaced with the previous single tabby image with this collage. Due to irregular sizes and duplicity of the mentioned images, I had to exclude No.1, 33 (for the size matter) and 76 and 77. Except one, the rest are cats in Japan, and 4 images are tabby cats. So I guess we can replace some of them with a long-haired cat or blue cat like Russian blue.--Caspian blue 18:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

If anybody complains about the collage, let's ask 'em to submit a better cat picture than any of the ones we've found. Once they realize how difficult it is to find a suitable image, then they'll understand. Or we might get a better image. Abductive (reasoning) 19:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

.........aawww, what a nice bunch of kittehs. But seriously, looks fine. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:27, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Don't need a college as the lede for an animal that's almost only diverse in coat color. Bobisbob2 (talk) 22:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I agree, and if that was the only concern, that would be fine. However this is also an attempt to reduce the back and forth edit wars because someone wants their own cat to be the one and only lead pic. By having multiples in a collage, we are hoping there won't be as much of this. - IanCheesman (talk) 05:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

• Hi, Bobisbob2. I personally believe "one powerful cat image can rule" and using a collage in the infobox is my least choice among the options. However, the idea of rotating 6 to 12 images regularly seems to require undesirable high maintenance. I looked through about 2000 cat images on Flickrs, but I could not really find "one perfect image" with which everybody would be satisfied. I said above, we can exchange some of the 6 cats in the collage with an image of long-hair cat or Russian Blue, both of which are purebreds. However, people did not pick them in the initial discussion. So either you give use a better image, or you have to accept the newly formed consensus.--Caspian blue 06:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I pick 39 as the choice for the lede with 51 (which is in the college) as my second pick. Considering that pictures of different cats with different coat color are found thoughout the article, a college in the lede would be redundant.Bobisbob2 (talk) 13:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, I think any one of those pictures could be the lede, just not all together. Bobisbob2 (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Since several people support for using a collage, you need to gain a consensus.--Caspian blue 15:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that there was consensus for replacing intro image. If you wanted a collage it should have various cats. Here, we have 6 images - all cats are bicolor, all of them are short hair, 4 of them are in the same sitting pose. Interestingly, 5 of them are from Japan. --Lošmi (talk) 03:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, that's why I changed it to one of the images alone. Bobisbob2 (talk) 15:54, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

No, you're not the consensus. I had to revert your unilateral decision. I also strongly oppose to your choice of the image as a sole image. I did not support the collage idea, but people picked the idea.--Caspian blue 16:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The collage has been pretty stable and it was a good solution to finding a single image to represent all different types of cats. If you want to replace it, propose a new collage please. howcheng {chat} 17:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Some points:

• We already have images of different cats thoughout the article. Having a collage in the lede would be pointless.
• Cats are not very diverse in shape and size.
• The collage isn't even diverse anyway. Where are the long hairs?

The lede cat should be a generic cat with the most common color pattern. Which would probably be tabby. Bobisbob2 (talk) 19:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

• Please provide us with new images to consider. Abductive (reasoning) 19:27, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Already did. Look above. Bobisbob2 (talk) 19:36, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Stephens Island Wren

A piece of information in the "Impact on Birds" section of article Cat is probably not up-to-date. In the article Stephens Island Wren, it is mentioned that the research of Galbreath & Brown (2004) and Medway (2004) disproves the account by Rothschild (1905) who claimed that a single cat brought caused the wren's extinction. I thought I will point this out here because wikipedia would not let me edit semi-protected articles. Kimsin98 (talk) 18:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I've reworded this and added Medway's article as another reference. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

cat are mamal like humuns.ÇÁŢ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebekah z (talk • contribs) 18:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Regionalism

The reference to "Female cats are seasonally polyestrous, which means they may have many periods of heat over the course of a year, the season beginning in January or February and ending in late October." would surely apply to only one hemisphere of the planet, but which one? Nylonnet (talk) 02:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

In the northern hemisphere, female cats tend not to go into heat during the months November, December, and perhaps January so that kittens won't be born in the coldest months of the year when food supplies are the most scarce. I would expect regional variations on this pattern. Obankston (talk) 20:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The source does not specify, but since it was written in English, I'd expect this to refer to the Northern hemisphere. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Valerian (herb)

I had a look in this ref and couldn't find any mention of nepetalactone, which is the active constituent of catnip. Reading this paper it looks like it is a different chemical that is responsible. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Neither "Catniptoys.com" or Wikipedia are reliable sources. I'll see if I can verify any of this material in reliable sources, but if I can't I'll have to remove it. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the structures of valeranone I can't see much similarity to nepetalactone or actinidine (which are indeed similar). Moreover the statement that these two compounds (valeranone and nepetalactone) are "very similar" is unsourced. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tim. I lost my post here - it seems we were posting at the same time. I had reported that the pet resue center that I have been bringing cat toys to for some years has found that valerian is much more popular with cats than catnip. How do you suggest that I enter this information in our article, or perhaps is it not possible since there are (perhaps) no acceptable references? Gandydancer (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

There are quite a lot of plants that cats respond to (see the Tucker and Tucker article) but I haven't found any reliable sources that single out valerian over the others. I'm particularly unwilling to use the commercial website as a source, since they have a strong motive for exaggerating how effective their product is. Perhaps we could just say something like "Cats respond to several plants, of which catnip is best known.." Tim Vickers (talk) 21:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

While I certainly appreciate your spirit of willingness to be fair, I really do want to include valerian! I do understand your unwillingness to include the site I used. I will look at the site that wiki used at their valerian article. If I could have a little time to look for something better...and if I don't find it I will delete my addition...though I don't expect to find anything. Gandydancer (talk) 22:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thinking about the cats at the shelter, it might be that they are showing that well-known feline trait of loving new things over familiar things. So while everybody else is spoiling them with catnip toys, you're the only one giving them these unusual toys - the cats therefore go crazy over the new thing. Anyway, that's only speculation, but even from your experience I wouldn't be comfortable saying that cats are more sensitive to valerian than catnip. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Good points. Neutralperson (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Reading this section through again, it seems I initially misunderstood you and thought you did not want to include valerian at all, perhaps because it seems that we were making a post at the same time and I failed to read your entire post. I never did feel that I wanted to include the suggestion that it was even better than catnip in the article, but was only trying to back up my statement that it is an attractant. Everyone knows that cats like catnip, nothing new about that. So all the more reason to include valerian so that people can learn something they didn't know. At any rate, in my experience while catnip is not attractive to all cats, valerian never fails! Gandydancer (talk) 13:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I've condensed the section, removing the unreliable sources and mentioning valerian as one of several plants that produce the "catnip response". Tim Vickers (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not unsatisfied with the article, however I do wonder about why you would find my new reference "unreliable". Also, BTW, further looking did find that the catnip chemical and the valeriean chemical (atinidine) are similar. And, just because I found it so interesing... Reading the interesting information on toxoplasmosis and the strange way that it alters a rat (and I assume mouse) brain to make it suddenly find cats attractive so as to complete its life cycle, plus the fact that both rats and cats are attracted to valerian, made me wonder if there just might be a connection. Ahh, so many new things to learn, so little time! :-) Gandydancer (talk) 01:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Cat posture

Cat posture is sometimes mentioned in context with something else, and sometimes has a picture, but I couldn't find a collection of cat postures with pictures and videos.
Where would such a collection go?

A list of whole-body cat postures (incomplete, but includes many common postures):

• Static (not moving)
  • Laying on back (relaxing)
  • Laying on back (defensive)
  • Laying on side, tail straight out (relaxed)
  • Laying on side, tail curled around (relaxed)
  • Sitting on stomach, front paws forward (resting or attentive, Sphynx style)
  • Sitting on stomach, front paws curled inward, tail curled around base of body (resting, more common in the cold)
  • Sitting up, tail straight back
  • Sitting up, tail curled around feet
  • Standing on all fours, tail erect with flagpole
  • Standing on all fours, facing away from a person or object, but tail in close contact with the person or object
  • Standing on all fours, tail straight back
  • Standing on all fours, back arched, fur puffed up, body sideways (defensive)
  • Cat face vs. human face, reaching out with paw affectionately
  • Cat face vs. cat face, friendly greeting
  • Cat face vs. cat face, confrontational
  • Waste and scenting stances
  • Reproductive stances
• Dynamic (in motion)
  • Kneading
  • Yawn
  • Stretching after ending resting
  • Rubbing face on something (leaves scent)
  • Rubbing base of tail on something (leaves scent)
  • Wagging tail (annoyed or defensive)
  • Standing on back feet, stretching upward, clawing something (leaves scent)
  • Twisting in the air (righting reflex)
  • Landing (after righting)
  • Powerful jump upwards onto something (6 ft or more upwards, need video for this)
  • Catching itself by front claws after almost falling off a tree branch or window sill (dramatic, but this rarely happens, so this is hard to catch on video)
  • Stalking (moving slowly forward close to the ground)
  • Preparing to pounce (moving its body slowly side to side close to the ground)
  • Pouncing (sudden burst of speed)
  • Whiskers in basket shape as it is preparing for killing bite on prey
  • Laying on back, scratching something with back claws while holding it with front claws
  • Hissing, mouth partly open (defensive)
  • Cat face vs. cat face, lashing out with one paw
  • Panting (rare)

Obankston (talk) 18:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

PICTURES

Kk - basically, the cat pictures suck. Surely we can find some cuter ones, which still portray the same species in a domesticated environment????? Stakingsin (talk) 13:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Ha ha, well for the most part I thought they were pretty good. My favorite is the hissing cat (be sure to click for the larger version). I even looked at the country of origin, and I think s/he was from somewhere in South America. You may enjoy, as I did, looking at the pictures used by all the other wikipedia other-than-English-language cat entries. Of corse, none is as cute as my cat Kika (pronounced Kee-ka) Gandydancer (talk) 16:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I strongly dissagree about the cat pictures and would like to make a point: A cat is just as cute as a kitten and if that is not your opinion then you have misjudged how you would feel if you were a 17 year old cat who had lived a happy life with your owner and then a cut little kitteen poked it's head in and your attention came to a stop, you didn't have the treats you liked, you did'nt get that essential every day hug, the kitten was the owner's new bed heater and you were shot into that hard wicker basket from out of the shed that smelt of unfermiliar scents, you were not played with and that kitten was happy you were jelous because that kitten was now the light of your owners life and you were the ditch... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.236.144 (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect binomial

This article uses an incorrect binomial. According to "Concepts of Genetics" by Klug, Cummings, Spencer, and Palladino, 9th Edition, Copyright 2009, my textbook for Biology 222 Genetics, the true binomial for the domestic cat is Felis domesticus, not catus. Between a 200-level college biology book, for a class aimed at majors, and a Wiki article that anyone with an account can edit, which do you believe? Let me clarify further. I would not have been taught Felis domesticus in both high school and college if that were not THE name for the domestic cat. So, change it.

For the record, I'm a Biology Major. I know exactly what I'm talking about with this.

By the way, 3 years of Latin tell me that "Felis" by itself IS the Latin word for "cat," so that would make a name like "Felis catus" utterly redundant. This article has the wrong binomial. Change it. I even provided a source this time, everyone. Find the book and go to the Common Names, Scientific Names, and Haploid Numbers Chart on Page 23. -The Mysterious El Willstro 209.183.184.247 (talk) 04:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Cat/Archive_10#Scientific_name. Tim Vickers (talk) 04:43, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I was one of the authors of that discussion. It is interesting to see one of my old comments in an Archived Debate. Anyway, I can find sources for Felis domesticus, and I just did by citing my Genetics book.

At any rate, the person who replied to me there lost reliability by saying wolf hybrids (offspring of Canis lupus with Canis familiaris) aren't sterile, whereas in fact they are sterile. They DO exist, but they're sterile, similar to mules. Just ask any of my biology teachers and Professors from over the years. In fact, I once asked my dog's vet, and she said wolf hybrids are sterile. More generally, there tends to be a lot of incorrect biology stuff online. -The Mysterious El Willstro 209.183.184.247 (talk) 06:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

If Felis catus is incorrect, then the most recent Science paper on Felid phylogenetics is incorrect (see PMID 16400146) as is Scientific American article as is the paper "Phylogeny and Speciation of Felids" in Cladistics as is the ITIS entry on F. catus link. Since these recent, authoritative and reliable sources all agree on F. catus as the official species name, I think we should follow what they say. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:10, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The catus vs domesticus conundrum has interested me for years. I am sure some source must have discussed precedence etc. somewhere, and a few lines should definitely be added on how/why the names changed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

ITIS say Felis catus domestica is a synonym, but that it is an invalid junior synonym as it postdates Linnaeus' original name link. This alternative name certainly isn't in common use in the scientific literature. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

When I was a child in the 1970s, I'd see books with either name in them. In 5th grade I got in trouble correcting a teacher by offering F. catus as the name when the teacher had said domesticus. Things are easier now in the computer age. This reminds me of Red-tailed Black Cockatoo, which had magnificus as a specific epithet. I find these taxonomic adventures fascinating and feel they are worth explaining. And these pale in complexity with fungi naming conundrums....Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:01, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I am still looking for a worse nomenclatural mess than the Noronha skink. Ucucha 21:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree that if we could find a source that talks about it changing, that would be good. However the problem has been, there is no real enforcement of what it the "correct" scientific name, as scientists use what they feel is correct, which may be different. At one point in time I thought there were comments along this line in the article. As I said in the previous discussion, I don't know which is right, and whichever one is chosen will have well written, knowledgeable, and important works that disagree. - IanCheesman (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I' am not a biology major, but I do know three things: Linnaean taxonomy is not known for proper Latin, but it is known for redundant names; and there are known cases of fertile mules. Lars T. (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Felis catus Linnaeus, 1758, is the correct specific name, as it predates Felis catus domesticus Erxleben, 1777 (MSW 3). This paper affirms this point. I found this book explicitly discussing the issue. But it appears that there is no argument against the fact that catus is technically correct, only that domesticus is subjectively more appropriate. The latter argument has no place under the Code, which rather values stability and objectivity. A scientific name is just a label and its literal meaning has no bearing on its validity. Ucucha 14:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

That last sentence about literal meanings doesn't change the fact that every biology class I've ever taken in high school AND college has taught me Felis domesticus, and, for the record, it's only 2 words Felis domesticus, which means I already agreed that the 3 word Felis catus domestica/domesticus was invalid. I'll cite my Genetics book, "Concepts of Genetics" by Klug, Cummings, Spencer, and Palladino, 9th Edition, Copyright 2009, again. I leave you with 1 side point. What I learn in class will always take priority over an open-editing source such as Wiki. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 01:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

If that is your only (rather silly) point, then just wait a few years more until everything taught in class will be from a wiki ;). Coming myself from the "world of botanics", i would claim that the botanic names used are almost exclusively determined by the age of professors, not their competence ;) --92.202.48.125 (talk) 18:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Feral cats do not vocalize

I have read in various sources that feral cats do not vocalize (meow, purr, etc); only domesticated cats do this. A quick google search will confirm this. However I am not experienced in creating footnotes; perhaps someone can help incorporate this fact into the article? Also this should probably be included in the cat communication article. I can forward sources if need be. Thanks!! laurap414 (talk) 20:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting, I know they hiss and one I tamed does now purr. I'd be fascinated to see some sources about this. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I found the source; it's from a book called Communicating with your Cat, available on Google Books here (I forget how to insert a link!) http://books.google.com/books?id=lE-EbnD96QIC&pg=PA55 laurap414 (talk) 20:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I've added this fact to the article. Thank you Laura. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

But they do yowl, hiss, and growl, and kittens purr and meow, so this falls more under the idea that domestication of cats and dogs causes them to act as children their entire life (I appologize, I can't remember the technical term off the top of my head Neotony ), not vocalizations. Admittedly, more work has been done with dogs/wolves on this issue than with cats, but there is some (I'll see if I can find my notes on the subject in the next day or two. - IanCheesman (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe that feral cats do hiss, I know they growl and they don't meow because they have to meow or purr about living in the wild. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lois490 (talk • contribs) 03:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Cats as Food Sources

I think this article should mention that cats are eaten in many parts of the world, such as Peru and China, and in the past they were eaten in the USA (they were referred to as "roof rabbits" during the Great Depression). 12.40.5.69 (talk) 20:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It is mentioned already, but I couldn't find many good sources dealing with this. can you provide some? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Reducing the crazy

I am not sure whether this is an appropriate or useful suggestion; however, I think the article could be improved by reducing the amount of crazy in it. The article reads like it was written by a pack of crazy cat ladies. All assertions about behavior should be supported by scientific peer reviewed journals, not crazy people. Cat whispers, cat psychics, and animal advocates are not appropriate sources. Due to the use of such sources, the article has a strong bias in favor of crazy. To rectify the situation, I think contributers who have more than two cats in their home should kindly excuse themselves from editing the article because of an obvious conflict of interest; owning a pack of cats does not make you an expert on them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.45.144.142 (talk) 15:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you give some specific examples of where you think this applies? Thanks. howcheng {chat} 00:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Why semi-protected?

Why is this article semi-protected? I don't see a reason for it here on the talk page. Can the protection please either be explained here, or else removed?83.87.133.123 (talk) 16:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure, but possibly related to the fact that every cat owner in the world wants pictures of their own cat in the article :-) Haakon (talk) 17:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The page experiences ceaseless vandalism from children. Abductive (reasoning) 17:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Abductive - this article would erode over time - the frequency of vandalism would be such that it wouldn't be long before reversions were missed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blogs.sfx-360.com/ladyj/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/mare_machine_gun_cat1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sodahead.com/living/for-the-pretty-people-what-would-you-have-to-offer-if-you-werent-attractive/question-807407/&usg=__9YEIX9XamutxfmjxzFC_44rSob0=&h=320&w=400&sz=97&hl=en&start=4&sig2=G21GoeJU9hEydk-KPnDKEw&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=tay12zbxlpGhFM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpsycho%2Bcats%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUS375%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=HcG_S-CHIIqgnQf59NX_CA —Preceding unsigned comment added by Presergan (talk • contribs) 00:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

u can also stick a cat in the microwave and they smell like popcorn I am not s#!ting you. ☺♥☻

Template:FixBunching http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m311/tomspunkychic/Funny%2520stuff/PsychoCat.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.myspace.com/zahaaticus&usg=__cf2xJyGeLcFAC8lXgACTLlhau5c=&h=436&w=600&sz=37&hl=en&start=2&sig2=6WryJXgdrfzygZViiOL1Cg&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=NrMW0HPmSmEY5M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpsycho%2Bcats%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUS375%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=HcG_S-CHIIqgnQf59NX_CA Template:WP1.0 Template:FixBunching Template:FixBunching http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blogs.sfx-360.com/ladyj/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/mare_machine_gun_cat1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sodahead.com/living/for-the-pretty-people-what-would-you-have-to-offer-if-you-werent-attractive/question-807407/&usg=__9YEIX9XamutxfmjxzFC_44rSob0=&h=320&w=400&sz=97&hl=en&start=4&sig2=G21GoeJU9hEydk-KPnDKEw&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=tay12zbxlpGhFM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpsycho%2Bcats%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUS375%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=HcG_S-CHIIqgnQf59NX_CA

Template:FixBunching

Cats are a common companion animal in Europe and North America

they are also a very common companion animal also in South America, and probably also in Middle East, Asia and Oceania. The "in Europe and North America" should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.189.152.112 (talk) 13:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The intro image

What about this one although the tail is not shown.

Can we replace the current image showing a complex background with a decent one? Of course, all cats are lovely, but well..I don't think the image is a best shot to represent cats.---Caspian blue 01:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Totaly agree, i was only thinking the other day we should have a better one. ZooPro 03:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, my attempt to replace with the better image (cute as well) on the right is reverted by Howcheng, but well..looking into Talk:Cat/Lead photo, I do not think two people's discussion two years ago does warrant to keep the image at this time. If people do not think the new one is better than the old one, I will keep looking for other images.--Caspian blue 07:45, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The current image suffers from low contrast, but the image you tried has problems too; the whiteness makes the neck and chin hard to distinguish from each other, it doesn't show any of the tail, and the cat isn't looking at the camera. I do like the background, though. Abductive (reasoning) 07:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the current cat image does not have the distinctiveness of the neck either. I've never thought of the cat's glazing in the new photo is a problem. Although the new image does not show the tail, well, it was taken in Japan, and not every cat have the long tail enough to show front such as Japanese bobtail. However, I accept your criticism, so that means I will try to find other images.--Caspian blue 08:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If it weren't for the neck/chin thing I would have supported the change. Seeing a tail is not crucial to me, and the gaze isn't a deal-breaker either. Surely there are thousands of pictures of cats on Flickr with CC-BY or CC-BY-SA licenses? Abductive (reasoning) 08:16, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I've been searching for "an ideal portrait of cat" past few days, but well, it is hard to find images showing its tail, whole figure, gazing (closing their eyes while everything is perfect), and cuteness altogether....---Caspian blue 08:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Are there any images that weren't as cute? I'll bet they are cute enough. Abductive (reasoning) 08:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the cat of in the current image looks less cute in my eyes. :-)--Caspian blue 08:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I cannot believe someone reverted it to a inferior image. crikey have people gone made with consensus, be bold, it improves the article and looks 100% better then the old image. Granted a tail and defined jaw line would be better but we work with what we have at the present. and the user who reverted it didnt even follow through with a discussion on the talk page, that shows how little they really cared. i think WP:DICK and WP:BOLD come into play here ZooPro 12:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• Perhaps the image could be lightly manipulated to define the jawline? Abductive (reasoning) 23:16, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
  • I think those who reverted certainly weren't WP:DICK. There has been discussion about what should be a proper representative image for this article, and this is what the consensus of editors (back then, a rather large consensus if I remember) decided upon. So I would expect anyone wishing to change the image to first gather a new consensus on the talk page before changing it.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
    • ZooPro, you could assume good faith better. It was 12:10 AM local time, and I was tired after having spent a long day doing Halloween-related activities, so I went to bed instead of starting a discussion on the talk page. howcheng {chat} 23:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The perennial problem of the image

I've reverted the change of image. Per WP:BRD. ZooPro was bold, I've reverted, the next stage is that we discuss. As far as I recall, there was a long debate about the image in the past, and the one of the tabby cat achieved consensus to be displayed. Until there is consensus that it should be changed, it stays. No doubt many of us have cats, and we all think that our cat is the cutest etc but this issue has been discussed and consensus reached. Of course, consensus may change over time, but this needs more than a few people to achieve. Mjroots (talk) 12:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, now the discussion begins. ZooPro 13:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

What about a composite image like on Ashkenazi Jews or fungus..? Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Or some articles constantly replace the main image, cycling through a number of them once a month or so, thus no one feels slighted, and shows a variety of cats. - IanCheesman (talk) 19:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Without picking a particular image, I feel that we should first decide what the image needs to portray. I note that some editors think that the cobbles as a background are "cluttered". Colourwise, I feel that all black or all white would not be good, apart from that any colour. Photo really needs to show all of a cat, including a tail. A neutral background with the cat well contrasted would probably be a good thing. Mjroots (talk) 20:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I think either a montage or rotating images is fine (and get a pool of say 12 images for both/either). Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Both of those ideas work for me as well. howcheng {chat} 23:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not to disagree (rotating images is a good idea), but can we even find twelve acceptable images? Abductive (reasoning) 23:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

We-ell, why not list some candidates and see how we go and what we need. Casliber (talk · contribs)

00:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Does it even matter, geez. TheClerksWell (talk) 17:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Candidates

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  1
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  2
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  3
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  4
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  5
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  9
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  37
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• 62
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  76
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  77
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  78
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  79

--Caspian blue 00:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Added a whole bunch more, hope you don't mind. Remember, whether we rotate or gallery or collage, none of the pics have to be "perfect", as if such a thing exists. - IanCheesman (talk) 01:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Since this is purportedly a search for a representative specimen of an "ordinary" cat, I've added a nothing-special, garden-variety grey cat. I would suggest keeping the image selected as simple as possible, with as little background and/or activity as possible. P.S. - I think there are already plenty of pictures to choose from. Seduisant (talk) 01:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

'Warning: Cat overload!!! But seriously, here are some of the things that were discussed last time to help us decide on an appropriate pic:

• The cat represented should be a "typical" cat, i.e. a domestic cat rather than any specific breed
• The cat should be presented so that the whole cat is photographed, with no parts hidden or cropped out, as much as possible
• The picture should be in proper focus, with good detail and background should be appropriate/not distract from the cat

I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two criteria, but those should suffice to winnow the list down a bit... :) --Ramdrake (talk) 01:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that is alot of cats....OTOH, if we do have collage of, say, 6 or more cat images, then one each of a few high profile breeds becomes okay i.e. the "many faces of cat" - eg a siamese, and a persian as well as several colours. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree with the "typical" cat criterion. Perhaps a better term should be "representative". So a Siamese might be okay, since there are so many of them, but maybe no good photo exists since their faces are so dark. Breeds like the Manx are not representative, and I will say that many of the long haireds don't seem appropriate. But the emphasis on "typical" is leading us to show cats that look more like the wild Felis silvestris rather than the domesticated Felis catus. Abductive (reasoning) 05:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

"Representative" is fine. However, all purebred cats together (all breeds) represents less than 10% of the domestic cat population. Therefore, representativity of any single purebred cat could be called in question. That was my point. Please feel free to agree or disagree with it.--Ramdrake (talk) 05:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm just thinking ahead; if a pic has everything else, the fact that it is of a Burmilla should not exclude it. I mean, a Burmilla looks like a mutt to me, and is representative of many cats. Conversely, a Persian, with its pushed-in face, is not representative. Abductive (reasoning) 06:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Being logical, if the pic has everything else, I wouldn't vote against it either, provided the cat doesn't have too unusual an aspect (rule out Manx, Bobtails, Persians, Siamese and all Rexes). However, I'd also have a tough time with any cat having colour points for the lead image. So, I guess we mostly agree.  ;) --Ramdrake (talk) 06:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments

• I blackball File:Two orange tabby cats greeting by rubbing-Hisashi-01.jpg (#17) since it is too horizontal, and at the scale it would appear in the infobox the cats would be too small. I don't like File:Laperm LH blacktortie white.jpg (#4) much, cat has weird back fur thing going. Abductive (reasoning) 01:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
• No. 5 would be good after cropping. --Dodo bird (talk) 02:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
• We should first narrow down the images among the 80 something images. My pick of 12 images are 1, 2, 3, 5, 13, 45, 63, 72, 76, 77, 78, 79. However, I can change my opinion, if other good images are brought up.--Caspian blue 04:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Those are not my cats, or my photos, but I uploaded some of them to Commons from Flickr images.--Caspian blue 14:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
• My top 12 (odd number, but no problem with that here) are : #1, 8, 20, 21, 24, 30, 33, 37, 38, 47, 51, and 79. Obviously, some of those choices would need cropping, and before anyone askes, I didn't take any of those pics, nor are any of them my cats ;) - IanCheesman (talk) 07:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
• So we don't lose momentum, I would have no problem with #s 5, 33 (if cropped), 39, 45, and 77. Why don't we start rotating with number 5, and when people complain, recruit them to find more images? Abductive (reasoning) 20:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
• By the way, 48 and 64 are the same image, and 45, 75 and 76 are the same cat, as are 74 and 77. Abductive (reasoning) 20:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
• I like 5, 36, 51, 57, 62, 68, 72, 76, and 78. I think 36 is my favorite. --William S. Saturn (talk) 06:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
• I pick number 39 for the lede. Nice pose and color. 51 would be my second pick. Bobisbob2 (talk) 22:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Are cats moody? My cat be an angel and othertimes a devil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Horselover25 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Ideal pose

I think this is close to ideal pose for cat portrait, so the whole body including the tail is shown, while the face is toward the camera. However, it is rare to find this pose...--Caspian blue 01:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

• However, the quality of the picture isn't too good (grainy), the original seems very much to be a drawing rather than a picture, and it depicts a specific breed (Siamese, old-style) rather than a generic cat.--Ramdrake (talk) 01:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I do not think that this picture is an ideal image for the article, but just brought it for reference on "ideal pose" for cat portrait in "my opinion". So the breed is irrelevant. :-) Caspian blue 02:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that the pose is "ideal". :) --Ramdrake (talk) 02:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

37 is close to an ideal pose, except that it's not facing the camera. Joyous! | Talk 02:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

61 is very close to your ideal pose, but it is a black cat.--Caspian blue 05:32, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I like that pose. Now, there's millions of cats out there, so it shouldn't be too hard to get a photo of a cat in that or a similar pose, with a fairly neutral background, should it? Mjroots (talk) 06:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem is, even thought I saw over 1000 images of cats on Flickr, I could not find any single one that everybody would say "OK, it is our guy".Recognition is a first step to resolve the case, but well, unless people here try harder, we would eventually just have to be content with the current unsatisfying cat image with the complex background.--Caspian blue 17:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Time to start stalking some local cats i suppose. Maybe i should take a photo of one of our tigers at work and we can use that :) they are conditioned to "pose" for the camera. Just a thought. ZooPro 13:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Stalking the local cats sounds a good idea. After all, you can't have too many cat photos on Commons, can you? Not sure about the tigers though. Mjroots (talk) 16:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this is an ideal pose. You can see the whole cat (head, body and tail).Kerisnook (talk) 21:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Keri

Collage

Collage of 6 cats.
No. 51, 45, 78
72, 79, 5

Since there seems to be disputes about which image to use, why not use a collage similar to the one used here? --William S. Saturn (talk) 05:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment. However to make a collage, we still should also select fine images among the candidates first. So please pick your favorite cat images.--Caspian blue 05:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, we have now 10 of the loads of pics that have been picked by at least two people. Does anyone have problems with any of the following - #1, 5, 33, 45, 51, 72, 76, 77, 78, 79? If nobody posts a problem with these, I would suggest someone make a collage of 5 or 6 of these (for instance, probably only one of 45, 76, and 77), with further discussion and changes to be made some time in the future - IanCheesman (talk) 08:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I replaced with the previous single tabby image with this collage. Due to irregular sizes and duplicity of the mentioned images, I had to exclude No.1, 33 (for the size matter) and 76 and 77. Except one, the rest are cats in Japan, and 4 images are tabby cats. So I guess we can replace some of them with a long-haired cat or blue cat like Russian blue.--Caspian blue 18:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

If anybody complains about the collage, let's ask 'em to submit a better cat picture than any of the ones we've found. Once they realize how difficult it is to find a suitable image, then they'll understand. Or we might get a better image. Abductive (reasoning) 19:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

.........aawww, what a nice bunch of kittehs. But seriously, looks fine. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:27, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Don't need a college as the lede for an animal that's almost only diverse in coat color. Bobisbob2 (talk) 22:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I agree, and if that was the only concern, that would be fine. However this is also an attempt to reduce the back and forth edit wars because someone wants their own cat to be the one and only lead pic. By having multiples in a collage, we are hoping there won't be as much of this. - IanCheesman (talk) 05:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

• Hi, Bobisbob2. I personally believe "one powerful cat image can rule" and using a collage in the infobox is my least choice among the options. However, the idea of rotating 6 to 12 images regularly seems to require undesirable high maintenance. I looked through about 2000 cat images on Flickrs, but I could not really find "one perfect image" with which everybody would be satisfied. I said above, we can exchange some of the 6 cats in the collage with an image of long-hair cat or Russian Blue, both of which are purebreds. However, people did not pick them in the initial discussion. So either you give use a better image, or you have to accept the newly formed consensus.--Caspian blue 06:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I pick 39 as the choice for the lede with 51 (which is in the college) as my second pick. Considering that pictures of different cats with different coat color are found thoughout the article, a college in the lede would be redundant.Bobisbob2 (talk) 13:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, I think any one of those pictures could be the lede, just not all together. Bobisbob2 (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Since several people support for using a collage, you need to gain a consensus.--Caspian blue 15:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that there was consensus for replacing intro image. If you wanted a collage it should have various cats. Here, we have 6 images - all cats are bicolor, all of them are short hair, 4 of them are in the same sitting pose. Interestingly, 5 of them are from Japan. --Lošmi (talk) 03:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, that's why I changed it to one of the images alone. Bobisbob2 (talk) 15:54, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

No, you're not the consensus. I had to revert your unilateral decision. I also strongly oppose to your choice of the image as a sole image. I did not support the collage idea, but people picked the idea.--Caspian blue 16:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The collage has been pretty stable and it was a good solution to finding a single image to represent all different types of cats. If you want to replace it, propose a new collage please. howcheng {chat} 17:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Some points:

• We already have images of different cats thoughout the article. Having a collage in the lede would be pointless.
• Cats are not very diverse in shape and size.
• The collage isn't even diverse anyway. Where are the long hairs?

The lede cat should be a generic cat with the most common color pattern. Which would probably be tabby. Bobisbob2 (talk) 19:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

• Please provide us with new images to consider. Abductive (reasoning) 19:27, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Already did. Look above. Bobisbob2 (talk) 19:36, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Stephens Island Wren

A piece of information in the "Impact on Birds" section of article Cat is probably not up-to-date. In the article Stephens Island Wren, it is mentioned that the research of Galbreath & Brown (2004) and Medway (2004) disproves the account by Rothschild (1905) who claimed that a single cat brought caused the wren's extinction. I thought I will point this out here because wikipedia would not let me edit semi-protected articles. Kimsin98 (talk) 18:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I've reworded this and added Medway's article as another reference. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

cat are mamal like humuns.ÇÁŢ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebekah z (talk • contribs) 18:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Regionalism

The reference to "Female cats are seasonally polyestrous, which means they may have many periods of heat over the course of a year, the season beginning in January or February and ending in late October." would surely apply to only one hemisphere of the planet, but which one? Nylonnet (talk) 02:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

In the northern hemisphere, female cats tend not to go into heat during the months November, December, and perhaps January so that kittens won't be born in the coldest months of the year when food supplies are the most scarce. I would expect regional variations on this pattern. Obankston (talk) 20:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The source does not specify, but since it was written in English, I'd expect this to refer to the Northern hemisphere. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Valerian (herb)

I had a look in this ref and couldn't find any mention of nepetalactone, which is the active constituent of catnip. Reading this paper it looks like it is a different chemical that is responsible. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Neither "Catniptoys.com" or Wikipedia are reliable sources. I'll see if I can verify any of this material in reliable sources, but if I can't I'll have to remove it. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the structures of valeranone I can't see much similarity to nepetalactone or actinidine (which are indeed similar). Moreover the statement that these two compounds (valeranone and nepetalactone) are "very similar" is unsourced. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tim. I lost my post here - it seems we were posting at the same time. I had reported that the pet resue center that I have been bringing cat toys to for some years has found that valerian is much more popular with cats than catnip. How do you suggest that I enter this information in our article, or perhaps is it not possible since there are (perhaps) no acceptable references? Gandydancer (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

There are quite a lot of plants that cats respond to (see the Tucker and Tucker article) but I haven't found any reliable sources that single out valerian over the others. I'm particularly unwilling to use the commercial website as a source, since they have a strong motive for exaggerating how effective their product is. Perhaps we could just say something like "Cats respond to several plants, of which catnip is best known.." Tim Vickers (talk) 21:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

While I certainly appreciate your spirit of willingness to be fair, I really do want to include valerian! I do understand your unwillingness to include the site I used. I will look at the site that wiki used at their valerian article. If I could have a little time to look for something better...and if I don't find it I will delete my addition...though I don't expect to find anything. Gandydancer (talk) 22:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thinking about the cats at the shelter, it might be that they are showing that well-known feline trait of loving new things over familiar things. So while everybody else is spoiling them with catnip toys, you're the only one giving them these unusual toys - the cats therefore go crazy over the new thing. Anyway, that's only speculation, but even from your experience I wouldn't be comfortable saying that cats are more sensitive to valerian than catnip. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Good points. Neutralperson (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Reading this section through again, it seems I initially misunderstood you and thought you did not want to include valerian at all, perhaps because it seems that we were making a post at the same time and I failed to read your entire post. I never did feel that I wanted to include the suggestion that it was even better than catnip in the article, but was only trying to back up my statement that it is an attractant. Everyone knows that cats like catnip, nothing new about that. So all the more reason to include valerian so that people can learn something they didn't know. At any rate, in my experience while catnip is not attractive to all cats, valerian never fails! Gandydancer (talk) 13:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I've condensed the section, removing the unreliable sources and mentioning valerian as one of several plants that produce the "catnip response". Tim Vickers (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not unsatisfied with the article, however I do wonder about why you would find my new reference "unreliable". Also, BTW, further looking did find that the catnip chemical and the valeriean chemical (atinidine) are similar. And, just because I found it so interesing... Reading the interesting information on toxoplasmosis and the strange way that it alters a rat (and I assume mouse) brain to make it suddenly find cats attractive so as to complete its life cycle, plus the fact that both rats and cats are attracted to valerian, made me wonder if there just might be a connection. Ahh, so many new things to learn, so little time! :-) Gandydancer (talk) 01:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Cat posture

Cat posture is sometimes mentioned in context with something else, and sometimes has a picture, but I couldn't find a collection of cat postures with pictures and videos.
Where would such a collection go?

A list of whole-body cat postures (incomplete, but includes many common postures):

• Static (not moving)
  • Laying on back (relaxing)
  • Laying on back (defensive)
  • Laying on side, tail straight out (relaxed)
  • Laying on side, tail curled around (relaxed)
  • Sitting on stomach, front paws forward (resting or attentive, Sphynx style)
  • Sitting on stomach, front paws curled inward, tail curled around base of body (resting, more common in the cold)
  • Sitting up, tail straight back
  • Sitting up, tail curled around feet
  • Standing on all fours, tail erect with flagpole
  • Standing on all fours, facing away from a person or object, but tail in close contact with the person or object
  • Standing on all fours, tail straight back
  • Standing on all fours, back arched, fur puffed up, body sideways (defensive)
  • Cat face vs. human face, reaching out with paw affectionately
  • Cat face vs. cat face, friendly greeting
  • Cat face vs. cat face, confrontational
  • Waste and scenting stances
  • Reproductive stances
• Dynamic (in motion)
  • Kneading
  • Yawn
  • Stretching after ending resting
  • Rubbing face on something (leaves scent)
  • Rubbing base of tail on something (leaves scent)
  • Wagging tail (annoyed or defensive)
  • Standing on back feet, stretching upward, clawing something (leaves scent)
  • Twisting in the air (righting reflex)
  • Landing (after righting)
  • Powerful jump upwards onto something (6 ft or more upwards, need video for this)
  • Catching itself by front claws after almost falling off a tree branch or window sill (dramatic, but this rarely happens, so this is hard to catch on video)
  • Stalking (moving slowly forward close to the ground)
  • Preparing to pounce (moving its body slowly side to side close to the ground)
  • Pouncing (sudden burst of speed)
  • Whiskers in basket shape as it is preparing for killing bite on prey
  • Laying on back, scratching something with back claws while holding it with front claws
  • Hissing, mouth partly open (defensive)
  • Cat face vs. cat face, lashing out with one paw
  • Panting (rare)

Obankston (talk) 18:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

PICTURES

Kk - basically, the cat pictures suck. Surely we can find some cuter ones, which still portray the same species in a domesticated environment????? Stakingsin (talk) 13:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Ha ha, well for the most part I thought they were pretty good. My favorite is the hissing cat (be sure to click for the larger version). I even looked at the country of origin, and I think s/he was from somewhere in South America. You may enjoy, as I did, looking at the pictures used by all the other wikipedia other-than-English-language cat entries. Of corse, none is as cute as my cat Kika (pronounced Kee-ka) Gandydancer (talk) 16:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I strongly dissagree about the cat pictures and would like to make a point: A cat is just as cute as a kitten and if that is not your opinion then you have misjudged how you would feel if you were a 17 year old cat who had lived a happy life with your owner and then a cut little kitteen poked it's head in and your attention came to a stop, you didn't have the treats you liked, you did'nt get that essential every day hug, the kitten was the owner's new bed heater and you were shot into that hard wicker basket from out of the shed that smelt of unfermiliar scents, you were not played with and that kitten was happy you were jelous because that kitten was now the light of your owners life and you were the ditch... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.236.144 (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect binomial

This article uses an incorrect binomial. According to "Concepts of Genetics" by Klug, Cummings, Spencer, and Palladino, 9th Edition, Copyright 2009, my textbook for Biology 222 Genetics, the true binomial for the domestic cat is Felis domesticus, not catus. Between a 200-level college biology book, for a class aimed at majors, and a Wiki article that anyone with an account can edit, which do you believe? Let me clarify further. I would not have been taught Felis domesticus in both high school and college if that were not THE name for the domestic cat. So, change it.

For the record, I'm a Biology Major. I know exactly what I'm talking about with this.

By the way, 3 years of Latin tell me that "Felis" by itself IS the Latin word for "cat," so that would make a name like "Felis catus" utterly redundant. This article has the wrong binomial. Change it. I even provided a source this time, everyone. Find the book and go to the Common Names, Scientific Names, and Haploid Numbers Chart on Page 23. -The Mysterious El Willstro 209.183.184.247 (talk) 04:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Cat/Archive_10#Scientific_name. Tim Vickers (talk) 04:43, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I was one of the authors of that discussion. It is interesting to see one of my old comments in an Archived Debate. Anyway, I can find sources for Felis domesticus, and I just did by citing my Genetics book.

At any rate, the person who replied to me there lost reliability by saying wolf hybrids (offspring of Canis lupus with Canis familiaris) aren't sterile, whereas in fact they are sterile. They DO exist, but they're sterile, similar to mules. Just ask any of my biology teachers and Professors from over the years. In fact, I once asked my dog's vet, and she said wolf hybrids are sterile. More generally, there tends to be a lot of incorrect biology stuff online. -The Mysterious El Willstro 209.183.184.247 (talk) 06:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

If Felis catus is incorrect, then the most recent Science paper on Felid phylogenetics is incorrect (see PMID 16400146) as is Scientific American article as is the paper "Phylogeny and Speciation of Felids" in Cladistics as is the ITIS entry on F. catus link. Since these recent, authoritative and reliable sources all agree on F. catus as the official species name, I think we should follow what they say. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:10, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The catus vs domesticus conundrum has interested me for years. I am sure some source must have discussed precedence etc. somewhere, and a few lines should definitely be added on how/why the names changed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

ITIS say Felis catus domestica is a synonym, but that it is an invalid junior synonym as it postdates Linnaeus' original name link. This alternative name certainly isn't in common use in the scientific literature. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

When I was a child in the 1970s, I'd see books with either name in them. In 5th grade I got in trouble correcting a teacher by offering F. catus as the name when the teacher had said domesticus. Things are easier now in the computer age. This reminds me of Red-tailed Black Cockatoo, which had magnificus as a specific epithet. I find these taxonomic adventures fascinating and feel they are worth explaining. And these pale in complexity with fungi naming conundrums....Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:01, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I am still looking for a worse nomenclatural mess than the Noronha skink. Ucucha 21:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree that if we could find a source that talks about it changing, that would be good. However the problem has been, there is no real enforcement of what it the "correct" scientific name, as scientists use what they feel is correct, which may be different. At one point in time I thought there were comments along this line in the article. As I said in the previous discussion, I don't know which is right, and whichever one is chosen will have well written, knowledgeable, and important works that disagree. - IanCheesman (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I' am not a biology major, but I do know three things: Linnaean taxonomy is not known for proper Latin, but it is known for redundant names; and there are known cases of fertile mules. Lars T. (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Felis catus Linnaeus, 1758, is the correct specific name, as it predates Felis catus domesticus Erxleben, 1777 (MSW 3). This paper affirms this point. I found this book explicitly discussing the issue. But it appears that there is no argument against the fact that catus is technically correct, only that domesticus is subjectively more appropriate. The latter argument has no place under the Code, which rather values stability and objectivity. A scientific name is just a label and its literal meaning has no bearing on its validity. Ucucha 14:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

That last sentence about literal meanings doesn't change the fact that every biology class I've ever taken in high school AND college has taught me Felis domesticus, and, for the record, it's only 2 words Felis domesticus, which means I already agreed that the 3 word Felis catus domestica/domesticus was invalid. I'll cite my Genetics book, "Concepts of Genetics" by Klug, Cummings, Spencer, and Palladino, 9th Edition, Copyright 2009, again. I leave you with 1 side point. What I learn in class will always take priority over an open-editing source such as Wiki. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 01:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

If that is your only (rather silly) point, then just wait a few years more until everything taught in class will be from a wiki ;). Coming myself from the "world of botanics", i would claim that the botanic names used are almost exclusively determined by the age of professors, not their competence ;) --92.202.48.125 (talk) 18:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Feral cats do not vocalize

I have read in various sources that feral cats do not vocalize (meow, purr, etc); only domesticated cats do this. A quick google search will confirm this. However I am not experienced in creating footnotes; perhaps someone can help incorporate this fact into the article? Also this should probably be included in the cat communication article. I can forward sources if need be. Thanks!! laurap414 (talk) 20:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting, I know they hiss and one I tamed does now purr. I'd be fascinated to see some sources about this. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I found the source; it's from a book called Communicating with your Cat, available on Google Books here (I forget how to insert a link!) http://books.google.com/books?id=lE-EbnD96QIC&pg=PA55 laurap414 (talk) 20:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I've added this fact to the article. Thank you Laura. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

But they do yowl, hiss, and growl, and kittens purr and meow, so this falls more under the idea that domestication of cats and dogs causes them to act as children their entire life (I appologize, I can't remember the technical term off the top of my head Neotony ), not vocalizations. Admittedly, more work has been done with dogs/wolves on this issue than with cats, but there is some (I'll see if I can find my notes on the subject in the next day or two. - IanCheesman (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe that feral cats do hiss, I know they growl and they don't meow because they have to meow or purr about living in the wild. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lois490 (talk • contribs) 03:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Cats as Food Sources

I think this article should mention that cats are eaten in many parts of the world, such as Peru and China, and in the past they were eaten in the USA (they were referred to as "roof rabbits" during the Great Depression). 12.40.5.69 (talk) 20:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It is mentioned already, but I couldn't find many good sources dealing with this. can you provide some? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Reducing the crazy

I am not sure whether this is an appropriate or useful suggestion; however, I think the article could be improved by reducing the amount of crazy in it. The article reads like it was written by a pack of crazy cat ladies. All assertions about behavior should be supported by scientific peer reviewed journals, not crazy people. Cat whispers, cat psychics, and animal advocates are not appropriate sources. Due to the use of such sources, the article has a strong bias in favor of crazy. To rectify the situation, I think contributers who have more than two cats in their home should kindly excuse themselves from editing the article because of an obvious conflict of interest; owning a pack of cats does not make you an expert on them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.45.144.142 (talk) 15:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you give some specific examples of where you think this applies? Thanks. howcheng {chat} 00:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Why semi-protected?

Why is this article semi-protected? I don't see a reason for it here on the talk page. Can the protection please either be explained here, or else removed?83.87.133.123 (talk) 16:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure, but possibly related to the fact that every cat owner in the world wants pictures of their own cat in the article :-) Haakon (talk) 17:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The page experiences ceaseless vandalism from children. Abductive (reasoning) 17:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Abductive - this article would erode over time - the frequency of vandalism would be such that it wouldn't be long before reversions were missed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blogs.sfx-360.com/ladyj/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/mare_machine_gun_cat1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sodahead.com/living/for-the-pretty-people-what-would-you-have-to-offer-if-you-werent-attractive/question-807407/&usg=__9YEIX9XamutxfmjxzFC_44rSob0=&h=320&w=400&sz=97&hl=en&start=4&sig2=G21GoeJU9hEydk-KPnDKEw&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=tay12zbxlpGhFM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpsycho%2Bcats%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUS375%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=HcG_S-CHIIqgnQf59NX_CA —Preceding unsigned comment added by Presergan (talk • contribs) 00:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC) u can also stick a cat in the microwave and they smell like popcorn I am not s#!ting you. ☺♥☻