Talk:Amalia Carneri

This article was nominated for deletion on 26 January 2016. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contested deletion[edit]

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... Amalia Carneri was a noted opera singer. She is listed as a performer in the 500th performance of Ein Waltzertraum, one of the most noteworthy operettas by Oscar Strauss. I have posters and programs, old records and a scrapbook with original clippings.

Carneri was taken to Terizen Concentration Camp, a camp operated for notable artists and musicians. It was the site of Brundibar, the children's opera. The citations in German were from German language newspapers of the time and very enthusiastic about her performances. She died in Treblinka Concentration Camp in Poland.

Perhaps the listing should be evaluated by a German speaker, an enthusiast of operetta. ≈≈≈≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nancypolk1 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 18 January 2016‎

We need to format the sources. You have the original news clippings? That's good, but we need to get them into Wiki format. It's OK to have print sources, we just need to write them up. Contact me if you need help. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 01:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The subject's notability should be based on what they have done or accomplished. Being taken to Theresienstadt is not a criteria for notability. Being in the 500th performance is also not a criteria for notability. Take a look at WP:NM. Even those it's heavily skewed for popular music, it still has some basic principles. If she sang a good number of performances in leading opera houses that might help establish her notability. - kosboot (talk) 03:40, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

She seems to have been notable in her day. A variety of sources can be found by searching for Amalie Carneri (rather than Amalia).--Ipigott (talk) 08:20, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I said at WikiProject Opera, this is a tricky one. You can actually find documentation for several of her recordings on the Zonophone and Odeon labels, you just have to look under multiple renderings of her first name. e.g. Amelie, Amalie, and Amalia. So arguably she passes Criteria#5 of WP:MUSICBIO. There's what looks like more stuff under the spelling "Amalija" in Slovenian [1], [2]. She's from a time period when a lot of material will simply not be available online unless you were very famous instead of just mildly notable. Having said that, all of the personal information about her and her family stuff is completely unreferenced including her own dates and places of birth and death. We cannot have a biographical article with such key information stemming solely from the personal knowledge of family members. Finding published sources for this information is an absolute priority. Otherwise the article is not viable and will probably be taken to an Articles for deletion discussion. Voceditenore (talk) 15:54, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The most reliable of those sources is the Neue Freie Presse. NFP has been digitized but as it's in Fraktur it can'be OCRed. Here are the relevant issues; one must go through each page to see where is the reference to Carneri (I checked July 11 and didn't find her):

- kosboot (talk) 18:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we can extract a quote from one of these. The February 1898 citation seems to have been a debut. There is a rather long review of her performance in the Pilsner Tagblatt 20 Jan 1905 (page five, I remember), but my German is nonexistent, and the only word I could make out was "glanzenden ", which I think means "glittering".

I will try to find some documentation of her internment in Theresienstadt and Treblinka at Yad Vashem or Theresienstadt House. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:36, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Either of her names didn't come up at the Terezin database (not expected, since she wasn't a victim) nor at the US Holocaust museum site. - kosboot (talk) 14:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio[edit]

Bulk of the article seems taken from this blog, which is dated November 20 2015 (before appearance of article on WP).--Smerus (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen this before. Classic method of getting an article deleted. Sit back, throw any grievance at the article, but don't do anything to improve said article. Collect 5 points. --MurderByDeletionism^"bang!" 20:26, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually exceedingly hard finding information about her. Other than the Neue Freie Presse, all the other newspapers are rather provincial. Only a large research library would have them. - kosboot (talk) 21:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with you, age and timing is creating a problem, but this has nothing to do with my original comment. --MurderByDeletionism^"bang!" 21:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've also seen this sort of thing before, User:MurderByDeadcopy. Classic method of trying to defend a defenseless article - Ignore WP:AGF and attempt to sling the book at anyone who disagrees with you. But unfortunately for you, whatever my motives , COPYVIO is COPYVIO. Compare the article with the blog and you will see vast tracts are verbatim copies. Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And the best part about poisoning the well is that it doesn't even need to be true! --MurderByDeletionism^"bang!" 21:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Editors sometimes write an article off-wiki where it's more familiar and publish it in both places under different licenses. Instead of discouraging this case, let's help this editor find a solution, like licensing the blog article appropriately. The editor is new, so let's try to lower the learning curve, if we can. Would adding a note to the blog like "This article is also available under a Creative Commons license at Wikipedia article Amalia Carneri" suffice? Any other suggestions? —PC-XT+ 04:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, let's all calm down here. Let's give it a rest here for a little while. I am trying to dig up some stuff, and if I find it, I will rewrite the article so it has a bit more respectability and doesn't come off as a page from a family memory album. If I can't find anything, well, then we will have to decide. In any case, she is not less notable than Froggy the Gremlin. So Wikipedia's sterling reputation will not be so profoundly besmirched if we leave this around for a while. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:12, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I congratulate the various editors on the way this article has been improved and sourced and have therefore withdrawn the AfD. I hope the remaining areas of the article which still require sourcing can be appropriately dealt with. I am not so happy with the personal insinuations made above by an editor who clearly feels that AfD debates are a matter of personal warfare. I took the article to AfD as a 'test case' after a discussion initiated (not by me) on WP:OPERA as to whether the article was notable. Such discussions, when undertaken on a consensual basis, are the basis of what makes WP reliable. I am frankly offended at having been accused as a liar and of 'poisoning the well' - but fortunately I don't expect User:MurderByDeadcopy to send me a kitten. -Smerus (talk) 14:13, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Smerus: Thanks for withdrawing the AfD. I let the article creator know. re: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amalia_Carneri&diff=702234923&oldid=702203325 this edit summary, note that at least the first 2 Holocaust database sources give her birth date; I haven't used them to footnote it because they don't give the place of birth or the birth name, so I'd have to put the sentence material in an odd order. Must now log off at work ... Yngvadottir (talk) 09:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong date[edit]

No Austrian source has an exact day of her death. Most probably she was murdered immediately after her arrival in Treblinka but there is no proof for this. The date of her death, which I removed, most probably stems from this source: [3]. Please note: This is another Amalia Pollak, born in 1858, who died in Theresienstadt on July 2, 1943.--Meister und Margarita (talk) 01:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

News clippings[edit]

The article contains a long list headed 'News clippings', with no indication as to the contents or nature of these clippings. It is not possible to consult these online or at most libraries (unless perhaps in Austria or Germany). Can I suggest that, if this is section is to be retained, it is prefaced by some explanation, provided by whoever has created the list - maybe 'Reviews of performances by Carneri are to be found in....' or 'References to performances by Carneri can be found in....'(or whatever is the case), and that the header of the section is changed accordingly (to 'Reviews' or whatever). Otherwise the section has no function and should be deleted.--Smerus (talk) 09:04, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I used one of the clippings (the extent of her mention was about 2-3 sentences). I suggest removing them entirely and putting them on the talk page until one is able to look them up.- kosboot (talk) 12:53, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

German article goes for Main page[edit]

de:Wikipedia_Diskussion:Hauptseite/Schon_gewusst#Vorschlag:_Amalia_Carneri_.2818._Februar_.29. @Yngvadottir: Told ya ;) @Meister und Margarita: - if there is a feedback about a Stolperstein for Carneri (so far imho none existant), that would be worth while a small article in the WP:Kurier/Wikipedia_Signpost in both wikis. Polentarion Talk 23:43, 18 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]