Talk:Bahá'í Faith
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| This talk page is automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. Any threads with no replies in 3 months may be automatically moved. Sections without timestamps are not archived. |
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| Biographies for discussion of material relating to the history of Baha'i figures
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| Picture discussion of the display of Baha'u'llah's photograph
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| Request for comment discussion generated by a RfC of Feb 2005
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Contents
Request for Comment: Lead Section[edit]
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- This wound up taking the form of a normal talk page discussion rather than a formal Request for Comment, largely because the initial statement was not specific as to the proposed remedy nor compliant with normal RfC statement standards. In any event, by 8 June the two sides seem to have reached agreement on the lede and there has been no attempt to dispute that agreement for over 40 days at this point. This is therefore closed as moot due to the consensus being previously implemented. (non-admin closure) Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 01:39, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm requesting comment on the first two paragraphs on the Baha'i Faith. We have had about a month of edit warring, and discussions don't seem to be going anywhere. Here are the first two paragraphs in the current version (which the majority of editors are reverting to):
The Bahá'í Faith (Persian: بهائی Bahā'i) is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people.[1] Established by Bahá'u'lláh in 1863, it initially grew in the Middle East and now has between 5-7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories, with the highest concentrations in India and Iran.[2]
The Bahá'í Faith formed from the Bábí religion, a 19th century outgrowth of Shia Islam that faced persecution by Persian authorities. In 1853, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran. He spent time in Baghdad before being further exiled, spending over a decade in the prison city of Akka in the Ottoman province of Syria, in what is now Israel. Following Bahá'u'lláh's death in 1892, leadership of the religion fell to his son `Abdu'l-Bahá (1844-1921), and later his great-grandson Shoghi Effendi (1897-1957). Bahá'ís around the world annually elect local, regional, and national Spiritual Assemblies that govern the affairs of the religion, and every five years the members of all National Spiritual Assemblies elect the Universal House of Justice, the nine-member supreme governing institution of the worldwide Bahá'í community, which sits in Haifa, Israel near the shrine of Bahá'u'lláh.
It has been adjusted and improved upon over this time, but there are a few sticking points. Please read the previous section on this talk page: Talk:Bahá'í Faith#Edit conflicts in the lead. If I may summarize the issues, they focus on how much detail should go into discussing the persecution of early Bábís and an attempted assassination of the Shah by some Bábís in order to briefly explain why Baha'u'llah was imprisoned and exiled from Iran. User:A35821361, in particular, thinks that mentioning persecution and exile should also mention the assassination attempt. Others believe that mentioning the assassination attempt presents its own problematic POV by leading the reader to think Baha'u'llah was behind the attempted murder (he was not). Regardless, all of the information is further below in the article and on sub-pages explaining all the details. This is a question about what is appropriate to summarize in the lead paragraphs to convey important concepts while not going into extraneous detail. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:50, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
- With respect to the proposed paragraph as is my main issue is the narrowness of the presence of the Faith suddenly changing from just being mentioned in the context of Persia and suddenly "Baha'is around the world…". In this context it might be good to elaborate briefly on the presence of Baha'is in countries in Baha'u'llah's leadership, then of Abdu'l-Baha, and then Shoghi Effendi. Along the lines of: "Upto Bahá'u'lláh's death in 1892 the religion was present in (x) countries. Then leadership of the religion fell to his son `Abdu'l-Bahá (1844-1921) during which time the religion was introduced to the West especially the US and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, as well as some of Europe, and later his great-grandson Shoghi Effendi (1897-1957) during who's leadership the religion spread especially to South America, Africa and Oceania to most countries" I also quibble over the word "concentration" as it can mean absolute numbers of Baha'is or Baha'is compared to the country's general population. Maybe "membership" would be an alternative?
But none of these points are being discussed…. Relative to the points being discussed I think the clear majority sources clearly relate the wave of persecutions to be a distinct subject from that of the assassination attempt and really in light of history most of the discussion and reaction is to that wave of martyrs and persecution that took place and stands as its own subject in the lede. I think this trumps even the question of implying Baha'u'llah was involved. I submitted some sources about this above and Cuñado did some more. More surely exist. Anyway, that's my input.Smkolins (talk) 22:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
- Note the analysis of the importance of the event - (see page 177)Abbas Amanat (2008). "The historical roots of the persecution of Babis and Baha'is in Iran". In Dominic Parviz Brookshaw; Seena Fazel. The Baha'is of Iran: Socio-historical Studies. Psychology Press. pp. 170–183. ISBN 978-0-415-35673-2.
The 1852 incident was a turning point for it opened the door to sporadic but severe mass killings in the Iranian provinces and smaller communities in the following years and even decades.
Smkolins (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Bahá'u'lláh, as one of the leaders of the Bábí movement, was arrested after a specific, causative antecedent event, namely the failed assassination attempt by some Bábís of Naser al-Din Shah Qajar on August 15, 1852.
Bahá'u'lláh remained a free man even while the Báb's followers were engaged in an apocalyptic insurgency.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested in 1848 when Mullá Ḥusayn-i-Bushru'i unfurled a Black Standard in Mashhad, fulfilling an Islamic prophecy, and began a march with other Bábis.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when Mullá Ḥusayn-i-Bushru'i died at the battle of Shaykh Tabarsí on February 2, 1849.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when the siege itself ended on May 10, 1849.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when the Báb was executed on July 9, 1850.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested while the insurgencies in Neyriz and Zanjan continued.
Regards, A35821361 (talk) 04:38, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- There is no way an action that resulted in the killing of thousands without trial can be called a "specific, causative antecendent event" in any fairness. Smkolins (talk) 16:01, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
- In fairness, yes it can be called "a specific, causative antecedent event." The assassination attempt had many ramifications, one of which was Bahá'u'lláh's arrest. A look at acts of violence in various historical contexts shows similar consequences. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
- I would strongly recommend including a discussion of the assassination attempt in the article body, assuming reliable sources can be found which directly relate this event to Bahá'u'lláh's arrest. The lead, however, is better concise, i.e. without mentioning what led up to the arrest, which surely was a quite complex history. Clean Copytalk 01:12, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- It has been included in the body for some time now. See section Bahá'í Faith#Bahá'u'lláh. Thanks for contributing. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 04:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for addressing the RfC, Clean Copytalk. The problem with not including mention of the failed assassination attempt in the lead is that with the wording as it has been maintained, mentioning Bahá'u'lláh's arrest after referring to a "time of persecution" falsely pushes the POV that his arrest was purely persecutorial, when in fact it was precipitated by a single event, the failed assassination attempt. I have mentioned above a number of incidents during the apocalyptic Bábi insurrections that did not precipitate his arrest. If the lead is to be concise, without mentioning what led up to the arrest, do you recommend omission of the "persecution" as well? In the past I have unsuccessfully recommended wording along the lines of "during a time of persecution in the wake of apocalyptic insurrections." However, while that wording addresses the underlying reason for the persecution, it does not address the specific reason for his arrest, which is the failed assassination attempt. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 12:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- The wording, "during a time of persecution in the wake of Babi insurrections" (I would leave out the word "apocalyptic") seems straightforward enough. Is this acceptable to others, as well? Clean Copytalk 22:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Not exactly, the Babis did not mount an insurrection, the times when they engaged in battle, they were surrounded and outnumbered, fighting defensively. Before taking up arms many were killed and tortured, fatwas were issued against them, and the wave of killings following the attempted assassination was greatly amplified by their desire to get rid of them based on religious beliefs. Religious persecution is the correct term. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:53, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- When, at the command of the Bab, Ḥusayn-i-Bushru'i unfurled a Black Standard in Mashhad, fulfilling an Islamic prophecy, and began a march with other Babis, they were not "surrounded and outnumbered." Nor were the Babis "surrounded and outnumbered" when they began uprisings in Neyriz and Zanjan. Yes, Clean Copytalk, I would go along with the wording "During a time of persecution in the wake of Babi insurrections, Bahaullah was arrested subsequent to an unsuccessful assassination attempt by some Babis of Naser al-Din Shah Qajar." Regards, A35821361 (talk) 00:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
The lead is already quite sufficiently long. The details can remain in the body. Incidentally, Oliver Scharbrodt's Islam and the Baha'i Faith: A Comparative Study has a clear description of the events on page 38. Clean Copytalk 01:42, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Clean Copytalk, please go ahead and edit the wording in the lead as you fit, thank you. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 09:06, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- an academic presentation - The Religion of Unity and the Unity of Religion: Remembering the Bahá’í Faith and Bahá’u’lláh, by Sasha Dehghani, Center for the study of World Religions, Harvard Divinity School, May 8, 2017 Smkolins (talk) 17:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Due to the quiescence here for the past week since recommended wording by Clean Copytalk, is there a consensus on his suggestion? Although Bahá'u'lláh was in fact arrested subsequent to the failed assassination attempt, is the wording "In 1853, during a time of persecution in the wake of Babi insurrections, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran" acceptable? If not, what is the objection? Regards, A35821361 (talk) 21:39, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
- I provided several reliable sources that describe the period as persecution and don't use the term "insurrection". It is still misleading. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:45, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
- There was an apocalyptic insurrection underway at the time of the persecutions. The fact that your sources "don't use the term 'insurrection'" is more a commentary on your sources. Countless other sources do mention the insurrection. What is further misleading is the omission of the very reason for his arrest, which is his being in the leadership of a movement engaged in an insurrection some of whose members attempted to assassinate the reigning monarch. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 22:03, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
- If there are better reliable sources, why haven't you provided them? It seems British and Russian observers as third-party first-hand sources are as best as you can get. They describe a religious group being targeted because of their beliefs and defending themselves. The three major skirmishes ended in a general massacre of the Babis involved, and there are no examples of any offensive campaigns other than your claim that walking around carrying a black flag represents an apocalyptic insurgency. Your assertion is unsourced and contradicted by reliable sources. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
- My last comment, which I stand by, was that the lede seems fine as it stands. As Cuñado mentions, the weight of reliable sources is clearly in support of the current framing, but you are welcome to seek out sources representing other points of view. Clean Copytalk 01:11, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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The status of adherents to the Bahá'í faith as Muslim[edit]
This is a somewhat contentious topic. Should we state that Bahá'ís consider themselves Muslims, although others dispute this claim, in the lead section of this article? I'm thinking that the second paragraph would be a good place to have it inserted. Also, "Letters written by Bahá'u'lláh. . . the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Kitáb-i-Íqán, Some Answered Questions, and The Dawn-Breakers." is unsourced and lacks citations.--Ilikerainandstorms (talk) 16:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- Hi Ilikerainandstorms, welcome to Wikipedia. Can you provide sources and citations for the assertions that "Bahá'ís consider themselves Muslims"? Personally, every source I've come across states the opposite, and so I'd be disinclined to include it anywhere in the article. If there are reliable sources that provide statements to the contrary, then they could be brought up here and discussed. dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:35, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I seem to have been wrong.--Ilikerainandstorms (talk) 14:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
- No problem! Thanks for bringing up your concerns here. By the way, the statements made in the last paragraph of the lead (which talks about Bahá'í scripture) are also made in the Canonical texts section, with citations included. They probably weren't cited in the lead because they're relatively uncontroversial statements that are unlikely to be challenged (or at least, they seem that way to me). We could always add a citation if other editors agree, but I'm not sure it's really needed. dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:16, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I seem to have been wrong.--Ilikerainandstorms (talk) 14:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
'Derogatory towards Ahmadiyya'?[edit]
The claim that the Baha'i writings are derogatory towards the Ahmadiyya movement seems to be the center of a brewing edit war on this page. I think citations should be provided here to support that claim since it's being used to justify an edit. UrielvIII (talk) 14:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
- I believe the conflict is how the first paragraph describes it as "... a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions..." or "... most religions..."
- The source uses the phrase "all", and the description of "essential worth" accurately carries the idea that there is value in all religions. That doesn't mean that every doctrine is considered true or that every claim to prophethood is accepted by Baha'is. Remember this is the first sentence, it can't get bogged down in details. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:23, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
- I did follow up and searched the available Baha'i writings for Ahmadiyya and found only a trivial mention of them as a sect, "If I remember correctly the same issue was raised as an open challenge in India by some spokesman of the Ahmadiyya sect." (Shoghi Effendi, The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, p. 424)
- Regarding Joseph Smith, there are several mentions by Shoghi Effendi but none of them derogatory: "Joseph Smith is not a Manifestation of God." "[the Mormons] have many good principles, and their teachings regarding chastity, not drinking or smoking, etc., are quite similar to ours, and should form a point of common interest." "As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá'ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century." "The Mormons are a people with high principles and ideals..." Cuñado ☼ - Talk 05:38, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Global Population[edit]
I just revereted a change to the lead from an IP address user changing "has between 5 and 7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," into "now has more than 7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," because they didn't provide any new sources of explanation of their new interpretations of sources. That said Bahá'í statistics does make clear that the newest estimates say >7 Mil. I don't think that is appropriate for the lead, since there are contradicting sources as well, and numerical estimation of a religion is complex. I personally believer 14M+ is probably more accurate, but don't have good enough sources to defend that. What I'd like to suggest is that the lead say "has between 5 and 8 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," since the sources contain many recent estimate of over 7 million, but none as high as 8 in recent years. Thoughts? penultimate_supper (talk) 12:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- I think most third party sources now say >7 Mil but "now" is an issue when the populations have been noticeably changing per decade. Very currently based on recent trends would probably call for >8 Mil but we're getting past the rate at which sources keep up and need to extrapolate which is problematic, (though it can be worth looking around to see what's out there within the last couple years.) There are also issues of what it means - different countries, different social situations, different schemes of accounting, etc. So I'm ok with >7 Mil... but I'd say we can change the "most of the world's countries and territories" to say something more like "almost all of the world's countries and territories". It is my understanding that basically the limit is North Korea, I think probably the most isolated country on the planet, and the Vatican, where I believe citizenships depends on being a Roman Catholic. Other countries that had been commented on by sources as having 0 Baha'is have been shown to miss levels of 10s of Baha'is (per some of those country articles.) Smkolins (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- Considering that the Baha'i Faith is not included in most surveys due to the large sample size required, I don't think there are any good sources for membership data. There is a good blog about it here. Baha'i sources estimated 5 million in 1991 and haven't provided an update since. The other sources estimating over 7 million are just taking that 1991 number and adding estimated growth rates to it. The World Christian Encyclopedia didn't actually perform surveys or go by census data. I think the lead should say "between 5 and X million adherents", where X is the highest estimate from a legitimate source, which is currently 7.8 million Baha'is in 2015. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:02, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
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