Jump to content

Talk:Belarusian and Russian partisan movement (2022–present)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Parties to the Civil conflict

[edit]

In the wikibox at the top of the article, there are a variety of different groups listed as being participants to the conflict. While most of them are well known as part of the Russian and Belarusian opposition, I question whether it would be accurate to label the "National Socialist/White Power" movement as part of the anti-war partisan movement. While hey have been involved in anti-government violence and other forms of terrorism, their campaign of violence predates the Russian-Ukrainian War. Furthermore, these groups have generally been supportive of the war against Ukraine and therefore cannot be credibly labelled as being "anti-war."


For this reason I would recommend that we remove them from the wikibox as an "anti-war opposition group." The only source cited uncritically repeats Russian government claims that they were behind a purported assassination attempt against Vladimir Solovyov and makes no connection between that event and the broader anti-war partisan movement. MLPfanficwriter (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

[edit]

I think the article's name should be changed to '2022-2023 Belarusian and Russian partisan movement', because the movement has dragged into 2023 GramCanMineAway (talk) 22:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 03:53, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I second this Victor Grigas (talk) 00:54, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 January 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. – robertsky (talk) 19:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2022–2023 Belarusian and Russian partisan movement → Belarusian and Russian partisan movement (2022–present) – The movement is still active; the proposed article title is in line with Belarusian partisan movement (2020–present). TadejM my talk 14:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Belarus has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Politics has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Parham wiki (talk) 16:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Belarusian and Russian partisan movement There are no other articles with this title. Specifying the date is unnecessary precision. Same reason why we don't have a date in Russian invasion of Ukraine. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: there is also Belarusian partisan movement (2020–present) and Belarusian resistance during World War II. Dekimasuよ! 07:43, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the answer is to move all content related to Belarus to Belarusian partisan movement (2020–present) and have this article only be about the Russian partisan movement. Charles Essie (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Charles Essie (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What are the sources for labelling it "partisan" movement?

[edit]

The article does not only describe acts of sabotage undertaken by more or less organized groups. Partisan is: a member of a military group that fights against soldiers who have taken control of its country ([1]). Partisans are organized, permanent military or para-military units operating in territory captured by the enemy and taking up arms against him. Sabotage is a completely separate form of resistance. Marcelus (talk) 08:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Marcelus, the title of this and related articles identified in the RM above concerns me too. I'm not seeing that there are sources that would call these partisan movements, though most of the sources are non-English. My impression is that this name is a Wiki-construct rather than terminology [commonly] used in sources. By definition, partisans oppose an occupying force, which is incorrect here. It also connotes affirmation, thereby raising POV issues with the title. They might be better labelled as violent activist or dissident movements. They might also be called revolutionary or insurrectionist, though the actions lack the scale to be called a revolt, a revolution or an insurrection. While terrorist has a negative connotation (against the righteous establishment), the actions described fit with the formal definition. In the absence of a WP:COMMONNAME description from English language sources, I'm not certain how this should best be labelled. However, I am pretty certain that calling this (and similar) partisan movements is wrong. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I too have my doubts about the use of the term "movement," which suggest something large-scale, coordinated if not even organized. I myself would favor a term like "Acts of anti-government resistance and sabotage in Russia and Belarus." What do you think @Cinderella157? Marcelus (talk) 12:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not very concise. These acts are seditious (by definition). How about sedition in Russia and Belarus? Cinderella157 (talk) 13:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 January 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is a consensus to move. While it is up in the air as to whether to move to partisan or resistance title, in consideration of dictionary definitions, it will be moved per nom. – robertsky (talk) 03:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Belarusian and Russian partisan movement (2022–present) → Russian partisan movement (2022–present) – Considering that there already is an article for the Belarusian partisan movement, I think this article should soley focus on the Russian partisan movement. We can then merge content about events in Belarus to the above-mentioned article. Charles Essie (talk) 18:14, 28 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 12:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, for clarification purposes Evaporation123 (talk) 00:16, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The proposed move. I am happy simply to drop the word "movement" from the title and make it Russian partisans (2022–present) per WP:CONCISE. "Partisans" does seem to be a relatively common descriptor of them, though, see the following:
I don't know why "partisans" would be POV but "resistance" not, and the term "partisans" is certainly more concise. FOARP (talk) 09:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Partisan are permanent irregular military force that conduct military operations against a regular army in a secret, ad hoc manner; there is no such thing occuring in Russia right now or since the invasion of Ukraine. The article describes actions of resistane, diversion and sabotage, but no partisan warfare. Marcelus (talk) 09:31, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think possibly you're trying to force an overly-narrow definition of "partisan" here. Going theough the dictionaries I get
  • The Oxford Reference Dictionary defines the word (in the relevant section as: "persons willing to take up armed and ideological resistance against a government in power or an occupying force".
  • The Oxford Compact dictionary defines it (again, in the relevant section) as "a member of an armed group fighting secretly against an occupying force".
  • The Collins dictionary defines it as "ordinary people, rather than soldiers, who join together to fight enemy soldiers who are occupying their country and states that it is synonymous with "resistance".
Based on that the narrower definition you are offering perhaps isn't universal.
In contrast "resistance" is defined (in the relevant parts) as:
  • "a secret organisation that fights against authority in an occupied country" by the Oxford Compact Dictionary.
  • "in the sense of freedom fighters" by Collins
  • and "an underground organization of a conquered or nearly conquered country engaging in sabotage and secret operations against occupation forces and collaborators" by Merriam-Webster (bring them in because I can't get the relevant result from the Oxford Reference dictionary).
Based on the above "resistance" and "partisans" seem to be basically synonymous. FOARP (talk) 11:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Charles Essie (talk) 16:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But they are not, and certainly not in this context. Partisan has two meanings: 1. a strong supporter of a party, cause, or person 2. a member of an armed group formed to fight secretly against an occupying force. See Partisan (politics) and Partisan (military). Here we can evidently only consider the latter meaning. Marcelus (talk) 19:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I'm very clearly only referring to your definition no. 2, not your no. 1, which the above-quoted dictionaries (particularly Collins) seem to present as synonymous with "Resistance" (in it's relevant meaning - not the ones related to electrical/physical/biological resistance). I think we're all very clear that definition no. 1 is not relevant here. EDIT:also, it goes without saying that Wikipedia is not a reliable source. FOARP (talk) 22:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Depending on the definition used, partisan generally refers to fighting against an occupying force, which is not the case here. It consequently conveys that the fighting is righteous, as opposed to a terrorist. It is therefore not a neutral term. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:34, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"It consequently conveys that the fighting is righteous" - to the extent that it does, resistance appears to do the same thing based on the above dictionary definitions. Additionally, that it might have positive conotations is not an automatic reason not to use it if it is a common name - nobody is proposing changing the titles of French Resistance or Yugoslav Partisans. FOARP (talk) 09:07, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge proposal

[edit]

I propose redirecting the article to Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It's what most of this article is about, and it would solve the issue of terminology. The attacks in Russia can be merged into that, while the attacks in Belarus can be merged into Belarusian partisan movement (2020–present). – Asarlaí (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - I disagree because that because article is about all attacks regardless of who carried them out. The Russian partisan movement is just as notable as the one in Belarus and it would be wrong for the only latter to have its own article. Charles Essie (talk) 05:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support redirect and merge. All of the information in this article is already found in other articles, namely the already existing Attacks in Russia, making this page redundant. Going by section headings: the Darya Dugina assasination, and the Machulishchy, Bryansk, and Belgorod attacks are all already detailed on the Attacks in Russia page; the attack on property section is present in one of the three main article links in that section (including the Attacks on Russia article); the rail war and NRA information is all present in their respective articles. So what is the point of this article then? It would be quite an easy merge as almost all of the information is already duplicated in the Attacks on Russia article. Sections covering the rail war and Belarus can be merged into their respective articles. Yeoutie (talk) 16:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine per Asarlaí as being a neutral descriptive title. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Belarus has been notified of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Politics has been notified of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To which proposal are you referring? Charles Essie (talk) 16:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Belarusian_and_Russian_partisan_movement_(2022–present)&oldid=1253628450"