Talk:Brigitte Manceaux

DYK nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:09, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

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• ... that Brigitte Manceaux said on her deathbed that the "only consolation" which her untimely death brought her was knowing that she would meet her uncle Francis Poulenc again? Source: "Ma seule consolation, c'est de savoir que je vais retrouver Francis, mais quand même il est dur de mourir si jeune!" (Francis Poulenc: Lettres inédites à Brigitte Manceaux, p. 20)
  • ALT1:... that Brigitte Manceaux was Francis Poulenc's niece and closest friend? Source: "Poulenc with his niece, also his closest friend, Brigitte Manceaux" (Poulenc: The Life in the Songs, p. 253)

Created by CurryTime7-24 (talk). Self-nominated at 00:51, 21 June 2021 (UTC).

• Interesting dedicated life, on few but good sources, offline and French source accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. Sorry, I don't like the hooks. We can't expect our "general readership" to even know who Poulenc was, sadly. Please reword ALT1 a bit, and mention her work also, not just relation and friendship. - I have a few suggestions for the article (not needed for approval): drop his former "secretary" from the lead, but in the body say a bit more about her function, not only that she died." The "a second Raymonde" would make more sense. In the lead, rather say more about the article subject. How do you feel about an infobox? "Manceaux's assistance proved especially invaluable while Poulenc was composing, then later attending rehearsals for Dialogues des Carmélites in 1957." - I had to read that twice to understand who proabably attended rehearsals. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Gerda Arendt! Thanks for looking over this DYK nom. Let me answer your well-considered points:

• The fact is that the average reader looking at Wikipedia's Main Page will have little to no prior knowledge of the subjects typically discussed in the daily DYK. Quite a few, including a number from the past few days, may be very arcane or of seemingly marginal interest even to a well-cultured reader. Take this DYK from June 19: "[Did you know] that the Honolulu Star-Bulletin described Thelma Akana Harrison as 'volatile', 'brilliant', and 'vivacious'"? No context is given as to who Akana Harrison was, what she did, or what led her to be described as such. Her biography was probably little-known even among Hawaii studies scholars. But what was great about that DYK (I would argue most of them) is that they don't presume that the average reader knows about the subject(s) mentioned. Rather, they pique the reader's curiosity, which invite them to click on the link and find out exactly what the subject(s) are/were and why they matter. Therefore, I don't believe that Manceaux's relative obscurity should keep her from being accepted as DYK.
• Raymonde Linossier didn't really have a "function," certainly not like any that Manceaux later assumed. Linossier was an emerging artist in her own right and had her own needs to attend to. Her "function" in Poulenc's life, such as it was, was to be his steadfast friend. I think it's important to note in the lede her death as it was precisely this event which allowed Manceaux to pursue her destiny, distinct from Linossier, at her uncle's side. There isn't much more to say beyond that, as Miscevic acknowledges in the introduction to his edition of Poulenc's correspondence to Manceaux: "Cependant, ces lettres nous en disent peu sur leur destinataire, dont ne subsiste qu'une dizaine de réponses. Poulenc ne les a-t-il pas conservées? Ont-elles été détruites? Qui était Brigitte elle-même? Une femme restée dans l'ombre, qu'il n'est pas facile de cerner (However, [Poulenc's] letters tell us little about their recipient, of which only a dozen replies are extant. Did Poulenc not keep them? Were they destroyed? Who was Brigitte herself? A woman who remained in the shadows, not easy to pin down)."
• The first ALT is admittedly awkwardly written, but I think it poignantly encapsulates the intensity of the relationship between Manceaux and Poulenc and why they each needed the other. Therefore, I would rather have a rewrite of that ALT then scrap it.
• I would appreciate it if you could fix any grammatical or stylistic issues within the article itself. I must confess, I'm great at proofreading other people's writing, but terrible at doing the same with my own. Even after scanning my own text a hundred times, there will always be some detail or other which I careless with. So an extra pair of eyes, as it were, would be very helpful and appreciated.
• Infobox is fine. The only reason I typically leave them out is because I had the (mistaken?) impression that usage thereof was frowned upon, at least for articles relating to figures in classical music. Personally, I have no problem with them, one way or the other.

Let me know what you think! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:11, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the first: of course she should have a DYK, but to say unknown person's niece and friends wouldn't make me click. I'd add at least that Poulenc was a composer.

If you want to keep Linossier in the lead, please write at least a stub of an article.

If you want to try rephrasing the original, go ahead but please don't tell us that her death brought her consolation. "solace" might be a word to consider.

Editors decide whether to have an infobox. Don't try one for Poulenc ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, I'd be delighted if you could add the infobox to the article. I have no objections to that! :) As for your other points, I believe they are fair. The Linossier article will have to wait a little bit as I have a busy workload this week. More than a stub, I had planned to write a full article about her (with corresponding DYK), but won't have time to do so until this weekend. If you could wait a little bit for that, I'd appreciate it. One minor quibble. Understand that I wasn't trying to tell the reader anything other than what Manceaux herself said (at least according to Marcel Schneider). Also, she didn't say or intend to say that death itself "brought her" any "consolation" in the sense that it "arrived as a friend." Rather, she was attempting to find a silver lining in this most terrible of situations; that if there was any good thing about her dying young, at least she hoped it would allow her to be reunited with her beloved uncle who had preceded her by less than three months. That is why I quoted "only consolation" so as to convey to the reader that the sentiment is not mine, but hers. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 21:46, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

All fine, especially waiting a bit. The quotation of "only consolation" is also fine, but the hook says that her death brought her that consolation, and I struck it as not working. Take your time. I'm not yet convinced that a hook beginning with a woman's deathbed is the best idea. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good. Now is your objection to Manceaux’s deathbed quote predicated on Wikipedia policy or is this your personal preference? I only ask because earlier this month we had this DYK: “Did you know that Kid Canfield is the first known person to die live on radio?” —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:45, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

I prefer DYK about a subject's life achievements to a deathbed quote, and I am no friend of hooks defining a woman by her relation (whatever kind) to a man (alone). However, I already agreed that your preference may be different. Just please word it correctly, which I feel is tough because we have the translation problem on top of the quotation problem. You can't say "consolation which her death her brought her", implying that death brought her consolation, and I thought I said so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Good morning from Southern California, Gerda Arendt! Thanks again for your reply. I feel we're at an impasse here. As the quote from Miscevic intimated, there is little about Manceaux extant which tells us anything about her, much less about any of her own potentially notable achievements. However valid your points certainly are, what you seem to be looking for in Manceaux does not exist. Whereas Linossier was notable in her own right, Manceaux seems to have willingly, even gladly subsumed her own life into her uncle's, whether we agree with that decision or not, whether we feel we must take Poulenc to task or not for making use of his niece this way. Moreover, a DYK which focuses on her own personal achievements (which ones?) I feel doesn't have the eye-grabbing appeal one using her deathbed quote—which I'll say for the third time most urgently and immediately captures who she was and why she matters—most certainly has. Returning to Kid Canfield, the only reason I clicked on that DYK from earlier this month was the admittedly lurid quality of the ALT used. First man to die on live radio? Whoa! But upon clicking the link, I found that his life was not merely defined by this rather gonzo fact. He had a fascinating personal history with underworld types, a gambling career that sounded like something out of The Sting, and finally an improbable conversion to the good life. However, I would've never known about any of that had I not seen that tantalizing DYK. That's my point and that's why I prefer a rewording of the original ALT over something blander. Just to be clear, her sex makes no difference to me; had their roles been reversed, I would just as enthusiastically be pushing for a deathbed quote from Poulenc about Manceaux. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:36, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

go ahead, - just returning from good time outside --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:24, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I hate to be that guy: it is only by clicking the link that I realized I had (barely) heard of Poulenc before in my life. Could we find a more interesting hook than "she was the best friend and niece of this person you might have heard of"? How about that she was the only person to know of Poluenc (whom you could introduce as "pianist") having a natural daughter? Dahn (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree, a juicier hook is needed. Please give me a few hours to take care of some work and I'll devise two more which, hopefully, are more engaging. Thanks for your helpful input, Dahn! CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:47, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24: Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dahn: Perhaps you could also try writing a hook based on that? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:47, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Sure. My best attempt:

ALT 2: ... that pianist Francis Poulenc only told his friend Brigitte Manceaux about his goddaughter being in reality his biological daughter? Dahn (talk) 07:17, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

You will need a different reviewer for something purely sensational. I just saw Dialogues des Carmélites last night: he was a great composer, and saying pianist and biological daughter isn't what I'd want to proclaim about him. Add "composer" (and perhaps "confidant") to the original hook, and I'll approve. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Gerda Arendt:! The hook I suggested is just that, a suggestion, based on the few tidbits in the article that could constitute a hook; you guys are free to rework it or reject it. Dahn (talk) 15:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the hook is sensational. For one thing, the subject has been deceased for almost 60 years so BLP surely doesn't apply. Secondly, ALT1 simply does not work unless you know who Poulenc is, whereas ALT2 doesn't have that issue. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:03, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

As for the hook, ALT2 works, the only issue is that the sentence talking about it (He also disclosed that his godchild, Marie-Ange Lebedeff, born on 13 September 1946, was in actuality his daughter that he had fathered out of wedlock with a friend, Fréderique Lebedeff.) lacks a footnote at the end, when one is required per DYK rules. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:05, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say ALT2 is impossible, I only said that it is impossible for me to approve it. BLP or not is of no consequence for that. You will perhaps find someone to approve it although it says practically nothing about the woman, much more about the man. I believe we could say that he trusted her, telling her personal secrets he shared with no one else, without mentioning such secret. I also see no problem in saying "composer" rather than pianist. Please read the FA. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Just waiting for Curry's response. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. Below are two reworkings of the original ALT:

• ALT3 ... that Brigitte Manceaux's last words expressed the hope that she would be reunited with her uncle, the composer Francis Poulenc? Source: "Ma seule consolation, c'est de savoir que je vais retrouver Francis, mais quand même il est dur de mourir si jeune!" (Francis Poulenc: Lettres inédites à Brigitte Manceaux, p. 20)
• ALT4 ... that the "only consolation" Brigitte Manceaux said she found in dying was the hope of being reunited with her uncle, the composer Francis Poulenc? Source: "Ma seule consolation, c'est de savoir que je vais retrouver Francis, mais quand même il est dur de mourir si jeune!" (Francis Poulenc: Lettres inédites à Brigitte Manceaux, p. 20)

If these still don't work for anyone... CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:26, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Those two are good, better than ALT1. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Good to hear. If we're all set to go (or not), please let me know. :) CurryTime7-24 (talk) 21:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Approving ALTs 2, 3, and 4 with no particular preference as to what to promote. Striking ALT1 due to issues raised earlier. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:13, 13 July 2021 (UTC)