Talk:Christianity in Pakistan

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Explain

can anyone please explain me this sentance

...rape of Christian woman and abduction of Christian men and women, and forcible conversion to Islam have horrifed Christians, liberal Pakistanis, other religious communities and the outside world.

can anyone cite sources for this?

Infact chiristans in Pakistan more powerfull then ordinary man here, and Islam does not allow forcible conversions.Wisesabre 12:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It does, however, allow you to fight and besiege them until they pay the Jizya or whatever.... Homestarmy 23:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a stab at the question

I have no idea how widespread this is, in reality. For sure, Christians feel oppressed like this.

I googled some references:

A 12-year-old Christian girl was reportedly abducted and gang raped by 16 Muslim men in Pakistan. The alleged offence occurred at Rawlpindi, bordering Pakistans capital city of Islamabad. According to a news release from the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA), Sara Tabasum escaped two weeks later while she was being transported to a new location. APMA reported Tabasum managed to jump out of the vehicle and escape while it was on a busy road. Although the youngster was pursued, she still managed to reach her family.

[1]

A 12 year-old Christian girl was kidnapped and gang-raped by four Muslim men in Lahore, Pakistan on Easter Day. Less than a week later, a Christian man in Jamshoro district was threatened by a mob following allegations of Blasphemy.

[2]

"We’re deeply concerned about the growing number of attacks against Christians in Pakistan," says Release International’s CEO Andy Dipper.“We are receiving reports of rape, abductions and forced conversion. Pakistan is becoming an increasingly difficult place for Christians to live.

"To make matters worse, the government is pushing through a law which could impose the death penalty for any Muslim man who converts to Christianity – and life imprisonment for any woman."

[3]

Faisalabad (AsiaNews) – A young Christian woman was kidnapped, raped and forced to convert to Islam by a Muslim man in Faisalabad, Khalil Tahir, chairman of “Adal Trust,” a free legal aid organisation that helps minorities, told AsiaNews.
According to early reports, 18-year-old Razia went to visit her aunt on October 21 but never came home. Her parents went out looking for her but to no avail. They also contacted a Muslim man, Sajid, who had harassed her in the past, but he denied any knowledge of her whereabouts.

[4]

Faisalabad (AsiaNews) – Two Christian girls, little more than children, were kidnapped from their families recently, forcibly converted to Islam and then married off to strangers. Both of the kidnaps took place in Faisalabad, the third largest city in Pakistan, and both were completely ignored by the police. The phenomenon is not a new one however, underlined numerous human rights activist, but it is dangerously on the increase.
On August 5 Muhammad Adnan, a Muslim from Zulfiqar colony Faisalabad and his sister kidnapped Zunaira, an eleven years old Christian girl from her home in Warispura. After the kidnap, they forced her to convert to Islam and marry her kidnaper Muhammad.
In the second case Shumaila Tabussum, (16), was kidnapped from her home on August 16 by a Muslim man Mazher and some other unknown people. They told Shumaila that her father had been seriously injured in an accident and offered to accompany her to the hospital where he had been taken. The girl, without waiting for her mother, got into Mazher’s car: on the way she met two uncles at shouted the news of her father’s accident to them. These made their way to the hospital but found no-one. [5]

This is just what came up on top of Google. Clearly the perception of this is widespread. But, like so many reports in Pakistan, it's difficult to peel through the layers of charges and counter-charges. --Calan 23:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christian missionaries are a greater problem?

This charge needs citation for factuality or be removed:

Christians are also the targets of Islamic missionaries seeking new converts to Islam. A greater problem, however, is the exploitation by Christian missionaries of the poor in Pakistan.

I'm aware that it is a frequent charge by Muslims against Christian missionaries but, in my observation, rarely with any facts given. I suspect the charge comes more out of an anti-Christian bias than from careful analysis. For starters, how many missionaries are even in Pakistan? Of those how many are proselytizing Muslims? I would guess that the number is very, exceedingly small, indeed.

I'm sure such things have happened -- especially during colonialism. But in the present tense, in a country that's + 95% Muslim with a stagnant Christian growth rate, it's hard to imagine that the problem of pressurized conversion of the poor is huge and widespread. Yet that is what the article charges. --Calan 23:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

census,population

what was the christian population in pakistan in 1947?The census conducted in pakistan have often not been transparent according to some people.Some christians leaders think that the actual size of their population is atleast 2 or 3 times more than the official figures. --Preceding unsigned comment added by M.asif (talk o contribs) 13:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The census by the government are false, Christians in Pakistan are in much higher population than the records of government. Christians in Pakistan cannot work or live on their own. They are beaten, threatened, their families and their belonging are not safe. The Muslim ideology is getting worse day by day. Matthew Shoukat (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pakistani Christians enjoy better lives than many christians living in Middle Eastern countries. Also, if any crime is committed against any member of Christian sect, it is given a name of "pogrom." But truth of the matter is terrorism and crime has no boundaries, religions or cultures. I strongly believe this whole article about christianity in Pakistan is pregnant with propaganda against islam and Muslims of Pakistan. As a Muslim Pakistani I have great respect and love for people of all faith especially Pakistani christians because I had many Christian friends studying with me in Islamabad College for boys (ICB) during my undergrad studies. Having said that, I might confess there are some individuals who have vested interests in causing schism between two largely peaceful communities. Such criminal and hate mongers should be eliminated and punished. --22:07, 20 January 2010, 76.114.128.125

However, it's still true that if a Pakistani Christian is accused of defaming Muhammad or the Qur'an, then a very significant number of Pakistanis feel that it really doesn't matter too much whether the Christian is innocent or guilty, since in either case the Christian must still die in order to wipe away the shame of the accusation. (That is exactly the same attitude that many white Southerners in the U.S. had in the 1930s-1950s when an accusation was made of a black man raping a white woman, by the way...) -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:36, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Christian muslim conflict?

Why is the section called 'Christian Muslim Conflict', when in fact what we see is a long list of attacks by muslims on christians. Would it not be better called 'Oppression of Christians by Muslims'? 81.156.143.39 (talk) 12:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes it's better to just let the facts speak for themselves... AnonMoos (talk) 23:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Faisalabad Riots

These riots were reported on a global basis by many news agencies, and were commented upon widely in Pakistan. The article says "an English newspaper reported" as if that was the only source, and then links it to a Pakistani-England cricket match, as if the newspaper was trying to stir up anti Pakistani emotions for sporting reasons. This is the kind of shameful garbage that is turning Wikipedia into a joke on the internet.

TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.14.223 (talk) 00:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Which source? Where? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the section marked "Faisalabad Riots". I agree, and it's unreferenced. Maybe remove it, or find another media reference (though I can't) and rewrite it. Knole Jonathan (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MisUnderstandings:

The article is written in the way in which only one side of the picture is being represented.

Christian cannot be a President of Prime Minister of Pakistan is no doubt true. But never in the history of even secular states a Muslim be a chief Executive of other christian dominant state. A Muslim ought to be President of India but under the constitution of India real power lies in the hand of Prime Minister so Muslim being a President is useless since he could not execute power. Also Pakistan is a state created on ideology like Israel and is decided even before its creation. Hence ensuring of Islamic values is its basic purpose. Everyone is free to frame its own constitution under Human rights of United Nations so Pakistan framed its own way. Rights of Minorities are always ensured in Pakistan since 1947 however, some disturbances occurred during 1971 war. One contention is that even a Christian tries to become a prime minister or president, he could only reach parliament but could not become chief executive as majority of Muslims would definitely elect a Muslim. These are technical fact when a regional constitution is written.

Blasphemy laws existed in Sub-continent since 1921 when Sir Iqbal the philosopher of Pakistan presented a draft in Punjab Assembly. That law ensured the safety of all religious founders and criticizing them was considered ignoble. After the creation of Pakistan, these laws were implemented accordingly. A prophet is divine messenger of Allah(God) and is complete and devoid of all mistakes. Regardless of the fact that he is also a human but above all others due to the completeness of his character. Constructive Criticism could be done on a person who do mistakes. Many great personalities of the past can be criticized as they contained certain incompleteness in their character. But a Prophet cannot be. And if he/she does then he must be punished either for Muhammad (SAW), Jesus, Moses, David or Abraham. This is blasphemy law which is implemented in Pakistan. It is not properly discussed here but its details can be studied in the Constitution of Pakistan. After this bible is never burnt and innocent Christians are not killed which is being posed here. Holy Qoraan is being burnt in United States, isn't it wrong? Hurting the feelings of millions of Muslims. In Pakistan, only those are killed upon whom the conduction of blasphemy is proved in High court.

PLEASE REPLY SO I COULD UPGRADE MY KNOWLEDGEM.A.R 1993 (talk) 15:23, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What do you wish to change more specifically? Its also worth pointing out that the burning of the Koran in the United States didn't actually happen -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 15:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Terry Jones very much did burn the quran. Its worth pointing out that it did happen.Labnoor (talk) 20:26, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Population

Are the population stats accurate? This source mentions there are 15 million Christians while most articles on Wikipedia say 2.8 million. Mar4d (talk) 07:16, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt it. 3 million is more likely.[6]. maybe it was a typo and they meant 1.5 million. CIA factbook states entire non muslim population is 5% ( approx 9.5 million of total population of 190 million) including Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, Kalash etc.[7] The numbers likely are declining as the minorities either are forcibly converted, murdered or flee the country.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

unreliable references

one sentence was sourced by another wikipedia article. another was sourced by the notoriously incorrect tabloid "the Sun", which has made numerous false claims, including claiming michael jackson converted to islam, that the queen of england "Declared war" on the BNP, and "The Sun", never explains where it gets its information from, and writes the articles in an extremely sensationalist manner.

Another sentence had absolutely no source at all. the rest of the material is sourced by christian news agencies. People have to find mainstream news sources on persecution, and not pick up anything on the internet.Labnoor (talk) 20:24, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can edit the article yourself if you feel it has problems. I tend to agree with you. 177.40.183.233 (talk) 00:26, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

christians in pakistan are all convert descendants

there is absolutely no evidence of ancient christian precense in pakistan. the St Thomas and the malabar church refer to kerala in modern day southern india. those christians might not have even lived in north india, let alone pakistan. And even if there were those communities in ancient times, then they are clearly currently extinct.

modern day christians in pakistan are all descended from converts from either islam or other religions in pakisan like hinduism, to Christianity, during British rule. there is no true "native" community of pakistani christians dating from ancient times. This article is extremely misleading.Labnoor (talk) 20:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Almost all Pakistanis must be descended from converts, except possibly the Jews, if you consider Adam to have been Jewish, and perhaps the few pagans who remain in the hills. NRPanikker (talk) 16:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

=Caste and religion

Substantial number of Pakistani Christians were former Hindu untouchable caste of Bhanjis, who were converted and because played an important function in removing excrement were not allowed emigrate to India after 1947. They currently poor residents of large cities. This article glosses over those facts. Kanatonian (talk) 01:52, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion on BBC Radio 4 in recent months about mob attacks on Christians in Pakistan included one where the overt trigger was a Christian woman using a communal drinking vessel, which her Muslim co-workers felt they could no longer use. A discussant said this was actually a matter of the enforcement of untouchability, since many of the Christians in Pakistan were descended from Harijan communities. This parallels similar attacks by higher on lower caste Hindus in India and the activities of the Ku Klux Klan in Trumpland. In theory there are no castes in Islam (or in Sikhism) but in practice sweepers in both Pakistan and Bangladesh are hereditary and live apart, and other families and clans observe a similar system of ranks, privileges and disabilities to those found in undivided India. NRPanikker (talk) 22:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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The majority of Christians in Pakistan are Punjabi because of a massive people movement

This article makes it seem as if the majority of the Christians in Pakistan were a result of British influence. This is incorrect. The majority of Christians in Pakistan are Punjabis who converted from a group of people now self-identified as Dalits. Most historians trace this movement to a Chuhra convert named Ditt, a skin seller in 1873 <ref>John C.B. Webster, "Punjabi Christians" Journal of Punjab Studies - Volume 16, 2009 <ref>. Webster argues that 95% of Punjabi Christians can trace their roots back to Dalit tribes. As Ditt traveled from village to village, selling his wares, he evangelized fellow Chuhra people. By 1880, a massive movement of conversions spread in many villages in the Punjab. This background of Christians as converts out of poor and illiterate Chuhra villagers continues to be felt among Christians today. There is little doubt that the movement was "spontaneous" and few who know the history of Christianity in the Punjab would ever suggest that the movement was caused by missionary activity. Missionaries tried to train and educate as many converts as they could, but they made little impact overall.58.27.197.159 (talk) 15:58, 9 September 2016 (UTC)Robert Wetmore, Professor of Religious Studies, Forman Christian College, Lahore, Pakistan[reply]

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