Talk:Dadoji Kondadeo

Article moved

I've moved the article to Dadoji Konddeo -- this is the widely used English spelling, as Google suggests:

• Dadoji Kondadev 44 results
• Dadoji Konddev 280 results
• Dadoji Konddeo 1110 results

Also, many non-Marathi sources mention him as Dadaji instead of Dadoji[1][2][3]http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22Dadaji+Kondadeo%22+-wikipedia.

Dadoji as Marshal arts expert?

I somehow don't see that as his primary identification. He was good in politics and diplomacy and he was Shivaji's mentor from this angle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaveri (talk • contribs) 21:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The section about Dadoji's role as a mentor needs to be rewritten. There is no basis for the claims of Shivaji learning sanskrit from Shahaji in Bangalore at the age of 9. Kaveri (talk) 21:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The section 'myth of cut hand' needs to be edited for language. I will do it if I know for sure this section is useful in this article. Personally I do not see it adding any value. Kaveri (talk) 21:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Name

@Jonathansammy:lets discuss it here. "Ji" is "honorofic" word. "Ji" in Shivaji is part of name. For example, a child can be named as 'Shivaji', but no one names child as "Daduji", original name is "Dadu", and "Ji" can be added as honorific when child grows up. I will explain more. Wait. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  22:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

People use word "Dadoji" in honor. For example, in all sources in Marathi language we will see King Shivaji most commonly referred as "Shivaji Maharaj", but though "Shivaji Maharaj" is most common name still article name is just Shivaji because here "Maharaj" is honorific word. (Maharaj means great king). Same way, followers of Dadu Konddeo may call him "Dadoji" but we should use non-honorific words, there are sources for word "Dadu" too. Means we can't say that his name is not "Dadu", his original name is "Dadu", people may call him "Dadoji". --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  22:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources where Dadu was used instead of Dadoji or variants ending in Ji. Thanks Jonathansammy (talk) 19:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Please provide reliable references that Ji is an honorific in the spelling Dadoji otherwise I will have revert the article name to the original Dadoji. Afterall , historic sources all the way from James Grant Duff refer to him as Dadaji! Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

References

@Jonathansammy: Please read your source, they have written word Maratha as "Mahrattas", Shivaji as "Sivajee", Sambhaji as "Sumbhajee", surname Konddeo as "Konedeo". Then should we move names of these pages to wrong names given in this source? I will give you sources, currently busy on WP:DRN, please wait. You will find variations in names, somewhere you will find "Dadaji", somewhere "Dadoji", because these are respectful words, and everyone respects him in his/her own way, basically his name is "Dadu", others are variations. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  23:46, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

For now I will give some quick overview, I know "Dadoji' or "Dadaji" is also used, but if we prove that "Dadu" also has been used then we can use "Dadu" here as many authors can write "Dadoji" to give respect to him. Same way many authors write "Shivaji" as "Shivaji Maharaj". If you know Marathi then read this, also in this Pune Mirror both "Dadu" and "Dadoji" has been used, which proves that both of them are his names, so we should choose non-honorific name among them. One can't say that "Dadu" is not his name. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  00:04, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Calling him Dadu is a recent thing and looking at the title of one of the publication, Sahyadribana has its own agenda in calling him Dadu. Do you use the name used by historians for over two hundreds or the one by an obscure local publication with a POV to push ? Duff and Sarkar call him Dadaji; If for a moment , I agree that the Ji is honorific then what you are left with is "Dada" and not "Dadu" Jonathansammy (talk) 13:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Other people use mostly "Dadoji" not "Dadaji". So short form will be "Dado". If we add "ji" to "Dadu" then it will become "Daduji" but with usual pronunciations in Marathi it will be "Dadoji". And you don't ignore that "Pune Mirror" also used "Dadu". I will again say that one can't say that "Dadu" was not his name. You know, in topics related to India people do have such kind of debates, fans of Ambedkar demand that his name should be "Babasaheb" as it is used by many people and reliable sources, but still article name is B. R. Ambedkar. We can't write honorific Babasaheb though we can get numerous sources for it. But Babasaheb Purandare has "Babasaheb" in his article name because "Babasaheb' is his proper name and not honorific. Nearly every Marathi newspaper, scholars use word "Balasaheb Thackeray", but article name is Bal Thackeray. I can understand your concerns in this issue, but we just have to be neutral. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  14:29, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Who are "other people" ? Please provide reliable sources. Is Pune mirror considered a reliable source ?? Kondeo has been known by the name Dadaji or variant of it for centuries by eminent historians, who given their background had no reason to use any honorifics, and therefore calling him Dadu because an obscure local newspaper calls him by that name is not acceptable. Please do not bring Purandare, Ambedkar and Thakare into this, they are irrelevant to our discussion. I do not think you have been neutral on this subject at all. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jonathansammy: I can understand your sentiments but you can't call Ambedkar, Thakre, Purandare unrelated here. All of these are part of WikiProject Biography and WikiProject Maharashtra. We apply same rules within same project. If today we change article name from "Dadu" to "Dadoji' then why not "Bal" to "Balasaheb Thakre", why not "Babasaheb Ambedkar".?? You must understand policy within WikiProject. You are denying "Pune Mirror" which is most famous newspaper of Pune city to which Dadu Konddev and his statue was related. Anyway, I will give you another reliable scholarly source read this book, They have written "Dado Konddev". Here also they dropped "Ji". You think that I'm not neutral but believe me I'm neutral person. I gave you that book source. I will post details of book. "" This book is of "Continental Publication' which is prestigious publication. We should drop "Ji". --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  17:15, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

References

Author of above book has article on Wikipedia Setu Madhavrao Pagdi. Read his article, he wrote so many History books. Now please don't call him unreliable. You should also see this book is of "Continental Publication". I'm not saying "Dadoji" is not used in reliable sources, but "Dadu" or "Dado" also used in reliable sources and we should prefer non-honorific names. Hope your doubt is cleared now. Thank you. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  17:24, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• Now I will give you most reliable source. I will give you a letter written by Shivaji himself in which he referred Konddeo as "Dado Konddev". You were saying this 'Dadu', 'Dado' terms came recently, but it is not like that, Shivaji himself used these terms which shows his original name was 'Dadu'/'Dado'. Its people who started praising "Dado" and started writing it as "Dadoji" as it is Marathi tradition to praise people. If you name is 'Narayan' then people associated with you may call you 'Narayan' but when you grow up then people will call you ;NarayanJi', 'Narayan Saheb' etc. Same is happening with 'Dadu'. In my first comment itself I said his real name was not 'Dadoji'. Now I will give letters of Shivaji.
• THIS SOURCE SAYS:

शिवचरित्र साहित्य खंड ३ मधील ३९९ व्या लेखांकात पुरंदर किल्ल्याची हकीकत आली आहे. तिच्यात शिवाजी महाराजांनी पुरंदरचा किल्लेदार महादाजी नीलकंठराव याला लिहिलेल्या एका पत्राचा उल्लेख आहे. “दादो कोंडदेव आम्हाजवळ वडिली ठेऊन दिल्हे होते, ते मृत्यो पावले, आता आम्ही निराश्रीत झालो’‘ असे त्यात म्हटले आहे.

• Another source for same letter includes [4]
• Though people who are writing these thing using "Ji' just to give respect to Konddev but still Shivaji himself did not use word 'ji'. Because his original name does not include 'ji'. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  18:16, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• I want to say you that, I'm not biased, I just want to keep correct name. For example you can see I have started move discussion for Vithoba too. See talk page of Vithoba. Because you know Vithoba is glorified name, "ba" means "father", original name of Vithoba is Vitthal. As Vithoba is featured article I started move discussion there, this article is very stub, it does not needed move discussion so I moved it. We don't use glorified name. Still we are discussing this matter here and I hope your doubts are cleared now. Thanks again for being so polite.--Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  18:34, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

So Pagdi calls him Dado and that is your basis for turning that into Dadu ?

Agree, Pagdi is eminent but that's only one historian. Most other reliable sources, Indian or Western, through ages call him Dadaji. Shouldn't that be the reaon to revert back to the original name ? Since you mentioned Pune mirror's involvement in the removal of the statue, that in itself makes their use of the name, Dadu, derogatory. Also Pune mirror is a primary source and on Wikipedia we try to stay away from primary sources. My Google search on Dadu Konddeo mostly gave wikippedia, sensational newspaper articles from last ten years or social media hits. So much for Dadu being in widespread use! On the other hand Dadaji or Dadoji had pages of hits that had books by eminent historians such as Sardesai, Sarkar, Duff and others. Purandare, Ambedkar or Thakare are irrelevant here because this is talk page on Dadaji Konddeo. Please feel free to discuss the persons you mention on mine or your talk page. BTW, I had a friend called Sahebrao Jadhav. If he had a Wikipedia article then per "your rules" the article would have been called –––––– Jadhav!Jonathansammy (talk) 19:53, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

ThanksJonathansammy (talk) 19:53, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

शिवचरित्र साहित्य खंड ३ मधील ३९९ व्या लेखांकात पुरंदर किल्ल्याची हकीकत आली आहे. तिच्यात शिवाजी महाराजांनी पुरंदरचा किल्लेदार महादाजी नीलकंठराव याला लिहिलेल्या एका पत्राचा उल्लेख आहे. “दादो कोंडदेव आम्हाजवळ वडिली ठेऊन दिल्हे होते, ते मृत्यो पावले, आता आम्ही निराश्रीत झालो’‘ असे त्यात म्हटले आहे.

Once again, it is Dado and not Dadu in your reference. Also when i looked at other quotes in your reference, the above was the only one calling him Dado. All others references attributed to letters written by Shivaji referred him as Dadaji. So why are you insisting on Dadu  ? I agree Vithoba should be changed to Vitthal but this is not the page for that discussion. ThanksJonathansammy (talk) 20:59, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Jonathansammy: I think you are in state of denial and not reading my comments carefully. Your friend "Sahebrao Jadhav" will have article name "Sahebrao Jadhav" because it is his original name, I gave you example that B. R. Ambedkar can't have 'Babasaheb' in his name but Babasaheb Purandare can have. Same way your friend can have 'Sahebrao'. Moreoevr, now we have sources that both 'Dado' and 'Dadoji' is used by historians and Shivaji himself. Your first ever argument was "show me reference that his name is used without 'ji'". Now I gave you references, then you still have some reasons. I'm ok with both 'Dadu' and 'Dado', we just can't use 'ji' when we have evidences that his name was 'dado'. We can change name to 'Dado Konddev'. Should we? --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  02:39, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, please. Changing to Dado would be a start. That does not mean you have provided enough reliable sources. Even the Shivaji letter you quote is from a website and not from a peer reviewed journal or a well known historian. Pagdi is the only one who has merit. I , on the other hand, have given you far more reliable references. Since you are involved with WikiProject Maharashtra, please also clean up honorifics from the titles of other names such as Santaji Ghorpade, Tanaji Malusare, Netaji Palkar, Kanhoji Angre, Jijabai Mahadaji Shinde,Yashwantrao Holkar,Yashwantrao Chavan and I can go on and on. I wish you well in this noble cause. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 21:13, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jonathansammy: When I give example of any other Marathi great man then you say this is not related here but how you are allowed to give so many other examples of Marathi people? Anyway, I think you at least believe in Loksatta. Reference of same letter is givem by Historian Pandurang Balkawade in his article in []. Both names 'Dado' and 'Dadoji' used everywhere, but kindly read Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)#Titles and honorifics where they have clearly written we can't use 'Ji', if we would have evidence that 'Dadoji' is the 'only' name of Konddev then we would have kept it, but we have sources that since start of his life there is a name 'Dado'. So we should prefer it. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  01:30, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jonathansammy: Hi, we can continue discussion at talk page of article, no need to discuss on my talk page, we should keep all discussion at one place, no need to keep on bringing this issue to my talk page, that was third time you brought this issue to my talk page even after I'm actively participating in discussion at talk page. Anyway, I have also given source of Loksatta for letter of Shivaji, you are not reading my comments here. And yes, we should look for other names too which you mentioned on my talk page, this is just start, as I said, I'm also in favour of changing honorific name of lord Vithoba to general or original name Vitthal for which I started discussion, so it is not just I'm particularly focusing on one topic, I'm also very active on projects other than Maharashtra, I will look for your said articles, we have to search over it. Thank you. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  15:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I wrote to your page because earlier you complained that I had brought other Maratha personalities in the picture on this page. So in order to keep the issues separate, I thought your page would be more appropriate to talk about changing the names of article on Tanaji, Netaji etc.. Let me know if we have a different forum to discuss removing the honorifics from thee names. May be others can weigh in on the issue too. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 13:02, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

You do not follow your own rules , do you ? Example is putting lord before Vithoba in your message above. Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 13:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

So when do you intend to change Dau to Dado ? Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 13:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jonathansammy: I said you don't bring this issue to my talk page just because you may get more people against your views, for example you can read reply to your comment by Kautilya3, he is also in favour of "Dadu". More people you get against your views more you will get hurt. So thats why I don't wanted it to my talk page as my talk page is watched by around 50 stalkers. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  13:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

I hope Kautilya3 can provide the basis for agreeing to Dadu. Apart from recent newspaper articles arising from the Laine controversy, website references and one reliable reference (who (Pagdi) called him him Dado) , you have not provided a single reference from a reliable historian calling him Dadu. I hope your 50 stalkers can weigh in on the issue by carefully reading all the conversation above.

Here is the list of references that call him Dadaji. They are eminent historians, Indian and Western and not Maharashtrian, who had no need to use an honorific 1. Duff

2. Sarkar History of Aurangzib: Based on Original Sources, Volume 4

3. Kantak

4. Kantak

5. Sarkar

I challenge other editors to do a search and find instances of calliing him Dadu that are more than 10 years old. Yes, Dado in a few instances but otherwise throughout history he was known by the name Dadaji or Dadoji but mostly Dadaji. I rest my case. Thank you. Jonathansammy (talk) 17:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC) Jonathansammy (talk) 17:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

References

Requested move 17 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Dadoji Konddeo. Consensus is that it's the common name. Jenks24 (talk) 20:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

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Dadu Konddeo → Dadoji Konddeo – This should have been reverted using technical move, but since there has been a long discussion on it, creating this request. The current name seems to be a "new" name based on WP:OR that -ji is a WP:HONORIFIC and thus should be removed. A google search barring wiki mirrors yields only 30 results overall and zero results on Google News and Books. The earlier name "Dadoji Konddeo" has results in Google books as well as news [5] and 27,200 hits overall (barring wiki mirrors). WP:COMMONNAME is evident.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 18:28, 17 August 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. Natg 19 (talk) 23:32, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: as per above long discussion I had, agree on Dado Konddeo. Will comment in more detail later. --Human3015^{Send WikiLove}  18:46, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support: reverting name back to Dadoji Konddeo. I agreed to "Dado" , in order to avoid conflict but I was not comfortable with that. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 20:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support: I don't know what the original name was. But a preponderance of reliable sources use "Dadoji" [6] as opposed to "Dadu" [7]. - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support the revert to COMMONNAME as Redtiger states. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 11:42, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.