Talk:Eternal September

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Christmas Modem Kiddies[edit]

A related expression to this, in the BBS communities of the 1980s where I am from, in Canada, was "Christmas Modem Kiddies", or CMKs. Just as university networks had their intakes of new members in September, the public BBSes had their intakes of new members when people got computers and modems (300 or 1200 bps) at Christmas time. I'd like add a reference to this phrase, but I wonder how widespread it was. Do other people recognise the phrase "Christmas Modem Kiddies"?

The BBSs I was on referred to them as "ruggies", i.e. rugrats (though this was not necessarily Christmas-related, the term came to be associated with Christmas due to the influx following the holidays) and "Christmas newbies." Jerry Kindall 22:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

has the 'Eternal September' really ended?[edit]

Just a thought...

If the reference made by 'Endless September' is the proliferation of AOL users on Usenet, then it officially is.

But an argument can also be made (apologies beforehand to Usenet vets) that 'Endless September' refers to the influx of newbies entering the Internet (specifically the Web) in general; and if taken in that sense then the 'Endless September' is still not over. And I personally hope it never will, as it will mean continued growth in global interactive participatory culture (in opposition of spoon-fed conglomerate-dominated media culture).

Again, just a thought...

--Lemi4 06:59, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) [my mind-dumpster]

I am old enough to have been there. Pre that September, fully half the denizens were PhD laurates or candidates. One could reasonably expect to strike up a conversation with someone from Dryden on desmodromics(Hi Nancy). It will never be that way again.
Thoglette (talk) 14:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not old enough to have been there, but even if the term only should apply to Usenet it is clear that the September has not ended, and will most likely never do so; the majority of people in general and their associated stupidity have ruined the Internet forever, as society in general continuously becomes increasingly dependent on the Internet for arbitrary services the problem is thus only getting worse.
I think the "September that never ended" is actually a very significant peripetia in the history of the Internet; this is because it signifies a turning point in the sense that everything went downhill from there -- i.a. "average Joe" types of persons would influence the network everywhere, not just in Usenet, but everywhere, and ruin every community as if spreading like a plague, the academic nature of the Internet started a steep downhill journey into a bottomless pit, all services quickly started to deprecate only to be replaced by ugly hacks upon HTTP upon HTTP upon HTTP ad infinitum and commercialization of the Internet really accelerated.
I assume the next logical step will be that net neutrality is rendered null and void -- also ultimately a result of the September that never ended.
Perhaps the September that never ended was beneficial for the majority of the people -- i.e. "average Joe"; but it was certainly not a good thing for everyone else, and especially not for the community that existed on the Internet prior to the September who had their entire community robbed from them; much in the same way the BBS community were robbed of their community by the Internet.
Posix memalign (talk) 13:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

My random thoughts[edit]

Usenet, in a lot of ways, was (and, yes, I mean "was"; Usenet is dead. Let me take that back. Usenet has become a fire sharing network; Usenet as a discussion medium is dead) a big clique. There was a lot of useful information there, but there was also a lot of attacking of newbies and people with different opinions in a lot of forums. I remember a 1994 article (back when Usenet was the internet) about Usenet, comparing the behavior of members to the rites of street gangs. The whole "anti-AOL" and the resulting attitude which resulted in jokes like "Eternal September" (as I recall, AOL didn't have Usenet until mid-1994) was just one symptom of this cliqueish. IRC was another big clique; the pre-dot-com internet was very cliquey (actually; let me take that back. The Free Chess servers always had nice people; people could express their agression by kicking my butt at Chess instead of being a cliquey snob).

There are some things I miss about Usenet. I miss being able to use Leafnode to download a few Usenet newsgroups to my laptop over a modem, taking my laptop to the library and reading and posting to Usenet while studying; I would have my posted articles uploaded to Usenet that evening when I was online again. Usenet did not need a continuous online connection to be usable. Then again, more and more libraries have wireless internet access.

One of the positive benefits of the dot-com revolution, besides making it so that a given hot girl you see at the pool now has a web page, is that the internet is not the clique it was. I strive to make Wikipedia non-cliquey, and, in fact, remind seasoned members of Wikipedia:Newbies when I see any signs of this cliqueishness. Samboy 08:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Should it be mentioned somewhere...[edit]

...that "perpetual September", as suggested by Rolf Schmidt, the former editor of MMFHoH, is a good seven-syllable seasonal reference for spam-themed haiku? =) [1] --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 22:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

If your going to rename it anyway, you might as well rename it to "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" -_- --n00b 30698700:50, 30 September 1993
Me too! Bwanderson (talk) 08:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Wait, wait...[edit]

You mean Usenet was overrun by illegal immigrants from AOL?


Who exactly is "You"? Hackwrench 18:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Immigration is related[edit]

I don't know why someone apparently without a registered username thought that immigration isn't related, but the concept of "Eternal September" can be expressed as a continual immigration into a community such that the community can never integrate them and maintain a stable state. Hackwrench 17:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Computing SeptDate[edit]

I've added a hacked together computation for the current SeptDate, I couldn't find a good reference to how to do this (help?), please see if you can find a problem/fix it.

it's { {#expr:2679+((({ {CURRENTYEAR} }-2001)*365.24) round 0)+(({ {CURRENTWEEK} }-1)*7)+{ {CURRENTDOW} } } }

 = 8701

Explanation: Since 2000 was an exception to the leap year rule I start at 2001.

  • 2679 - The last septday of 2000.
  • 365.24 - Number of days a year (including leap days).
  • round 0 - Round down "partial" leap days.
  • (CURRENTWEEK-1*7)+CURRENTDOW - For some reason CURRENTDOY didn't work for me, it works alone but not as part of an expression.

Motti 07:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as I remember all dates from this calendar onwards observe the following: leap year every fourth year that doesn't end in a multiple of 100 (ie. all 4th years have leap years except 1800, 2000, 2200, 2400 etc.). Either way, this article is 100% correct. Netiquette is as lost an art as etiquette, seen amongst a similar fraction (>1%) of the community.Nazlfrag 11:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's a page, with source code that converts all dates to their Eternal September date. According to it, the script here is off by two days.Slipgrid (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Diff with Unix timestamp and avoid leap year calculations, like so: 8702.4689467593. — Dispenser 14:00, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Sources and references[edit]

There's been some dispute on the sources and notability... Mrsaius, could you explain your reasoning on that point here? Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert 01:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Repeat insertion of OR related to Google Groups[edit]

The section relating to Google Groups continually returns, after repeated removals. Justify the OR and the citation here, don't just keep putting it back. David Spalding (  ) 15:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: rather than quote the OR of one minor blog/site, how about elaborating with a NPOV discussion of the DejaNews web access prior to Google? More references could be found for that. Again, discussion here is recommended before restoring the section. David Spalding (  )
Concur with removal. Just because it may be (and even if everyone "knows" it to be) true, we really need a good source to support it. DMacks 19:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Dejanews did not add much to Usenet as far as users posting through it. AOL did, and their users have earned the nickname "AOhellers" on Usenet for very good reason. If possible, Google Groupers are even worse. At least, AOLers had some dim realization that they were posting to some other hierarchy - Google Groupers think they are in a fan site. I am on Usenet several hours a day. Take it from me, what I said is true. The problem is finding references. I will not reinsert the section again until I do. -- Elaich talk 03:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Your own experience is valid and we can respect that, but it is also OR. (I'm no saint, I've run afoul of this myself a few times.) I've had the same experiences, I was online and on the beach when AOHell opened up its USENET gateway, and it was indeed a #(@*ing monstrous mess. The first 30 newsgroups were bombed to teh stone age with inane luser posts. There was fallout even to us CompuServer users, as any "online service" user got painted with roughly the same bias. BUT ... if you can find reliable sources that document the Google Groups Effect, groovy. Feel free to post drafted text here to get feedback. :) David Spalding (  ) 21:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Over in 2005?[edit]

The article says "On February 9, 2005, AOL discontinued newsgroup access through its service (this was announced on January 25, 2005[6][7]). September 1993 is thus, according to some, finally over." Actually, in the later 90s, the usenet died out when it became so flooded with spammers on every group that it was unusable. I think this is completely relevant to the logic of this article. Basically September didn't so much as end, but usenet kind of died thanks to spammers. William Ortiz 00:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

On a lot of groups (certainly all of the ones I was on), experienced regulars used clients capable of getting rid of most spam in the late 90s by dropping messages cross-posted to more than 2-3 groups and simple filters we could update by hand as needed. Based on what it looked like from the users' side, in 2000 or so, spammers switched from posting a handful of messages from their homes to a dozens of newsgroups at a time from their basements, to renting a server from a commercial provider running software that flooded countless newsgroups with dozens or hundreds of spam at a time and changed the words/phrases so frequently that users/filters couldn't keep up. Xyzzy☥Avatar (talk) 11:10, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

A small note on the final quote[edit]

I edited the original article as the one that cited the last sentence, "It's moot now. September 1993 will go down in net.history as the September that never ended." didn't realize the dot between "net" and "history". I think this is a small joke to refer to "net history" as another Usenet News Group. Corrected now to fully quote the original.

Dated External Links[edit]

The external link, "September that never ended in Ursine's Jargon Wiki," is broken. Doesn't seem like that domain host a wiki anymore. This link should be removed.Slipgrid (talk) 20:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

so do it? wtf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petchboo (talkcontribs) 14:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Inculcate vs. indoctrinate[edit]

Typo; I meant to explain my recent reversion more. Inculcate was the right word to begin with. Indoctrinate is POV-y and a loaded word, it has sinister connotations that are not relevant here.  Xihr  05:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

And where do you end up if you click the inculcate link? - Denimadept (talk) 14:41, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Start with the fact that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Continue with the fact that Wikipedia is not in and of itself a reliable source. What a redirect on Wikipedia points to has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Ask, say, -- y'know, an actual dictionary -- the same thing and you'll see what the difference is; see definition 2, for which there is no equivalent for the the word inculcate. Indoctrinate has negative bias connotations; inculcate does not.  Xihr  23:59, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
uhh, "disruptive newcomers" also has negative bias connotations. fixed Asdf98761 (talk) 23:39, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Ref specifically supports that the disruption was a key aspect, not just that there were new users. Whether that's negative or not, that's what the ref supports--see WP:NPOV. DMacks (talk) 23:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Eternal September Anthem[edit]

Someone wrote a poem to describe the phenomena: (talk) 17:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Should Demon Internet be included?[edit]

In Septmber '93 Demon was still shipping ka9q to its dial up customers; unlike AOL it required a certain amount of nous to access usenet and Demon didn't pretend that usenet was its own forum service. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:11, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

This article reads like a essay.[edit]

THis article reads like a angry college kids essay. Statements like -To many "old-timers", these newcomers were far less prepared to learn netiquette than university students. Sound ridiculous. -- (talk) 01:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Did you check the references? That's a pretty accurate summation of what they say. Sorry if it annoys you. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


this link might be useful for this article • 21:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

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Major error in the text[edit]

AOL did not invade in 1993. It was GEnie that first invaded, in October if I recall correctly. AOL didn't invade until 1994. Cite:

'AOL was a lot smaller--only a million users--and far from the market leader in March 1994, when it set up its "Usenet feature," which allowed a seemingly endless stream of people to tap nervously on their newsreaders, type out, one after another, "Hey, is this working?" and then hit the SEND button to relay this world-shaking message to all of Usenet.'

It was called the "Endless September" because just when the September Newbies seemed to be petering out, the GEnie Newbies showed up. Then as the clues started flowing into the GEnie userbase then the WELL granted Usenet access to its users. Then the wheels started to come off of the train, so to speak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:21, 1 September 2016 (UTC)