Talk:Freyr

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Ideas for improving the article[edit]

  1. There is a very famous miniature statue which is thought to be of Freyr. The article needs to have a picture of it. The trick is to find an old book with a decent picture and scan it in. Here's the thing: [1] Done (though of course one could hope for a better photo...)
  2. There are also some "guldgubbar" thought by some to represent Freyr and Gerðr. A picture of one of those would be nice too. Done.
    I believe this is what you were looking for.
    Yes it is. The only question is if we can stretch the Bridgeman ruling to cover this. Bah, I say we do! :) - Haukur 00:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. There's also an old tapestry thought to represent Odin, Thor and Freyr - though this is not certain and probably not necessary for the article. Done.
  4. We need to summarize Gesta Danorum properly. Done.
  5. We need to summarize the Icelanders' sagas properly, interesting material there.
  6. We need to write a decent article on Skírnismál and summarize it in this article.
  7. It would be nice to find out if HdGS really does mention Freyr.Can't find a copy anywhere. If it does contain any info it's probably not that important since I've never seen it mentioned.
  8. It would be nice to tidy the last sections up a bit and connect them better with the rest of the article. Essentially done. Still need to expand the sections a bit but now there's nothing there which I don't think belongs and nothing I don't have references for.
  9. There should be a short section on the name, its variant Anglicized and modernized versions and its etymology.
  10. There might possibly be something about Freyr in neo-paganism if we can find some interesting info. I don't know.
  11. Someone needs to get that Pamela Berger book and see what, if anything, it says about Freyr. Done. It's a bit annoying how Berger goddessifies everything (plays up Freyja, treats Freyr dismissively...) but she has some good stuff about Christian saints and art history (which is what the author is professor of).
  12. Somehow this article seems not to have filled up with the usual "popular culture" stuff. I'm not sure what to make of that.Mentioned Wagner. Disambiguation page takes care of Freyr (Stargate). Let's say that's enough.
  13. A bit about place names and people names linked to the god might be interesting. For example Freydís is a woman's name meaning "Freyr's dís". The best known Freydís is probably Freydís Eiríksdóttir.
  14. I'd like to contribute this wonderful piece of Artwork, Use it as you will.Freyr Scatters Fruitfulness as Skirnir Drives (artist unknown)
Are you the webmaster of the site you link to? Do you have any information on the source of that image? Do you know where it was scanned from? We really need to make sure that images used here have appropriate licenses. - Haukur 01:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Freyr in the Latin histories[edit]

Here's the only reference to Freyr I've found in Gesta Danorum.

Siquidem propitiandorum numinum gratia Frø deo rem divinam furvis hostiis fecit. Quem litationis morem annuo feriarum circuitu repetitum posteris imitandum reliquit. Frøblot Sueones vocant. - [2]

"For, in order to appease the deities, he sacrificed dusky victims to the god Frey. This manner of propitiation by sacrifice he repeated as an annual feast, and left posterity to follow. This rite the Swedes call Froblod (the sacrifice or feast of Frey)." - [3]

Maybe there are others. Does anyone know? There's certainly a lot about Fróði.

Infuriatingly neither the Historia Norwegiæ nor the Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalibus seem to be available online. I'd like to know exactly what each of those says about Freyr but I might not be able to go to a library very soon... - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


This is what I have found:

Also Frey, the regent of the gods, took his abode not far from Upsala, where he exchanged for a ghastly and infamous sin-offering the old custom of prayer by sacrifice, which had been used by so many ages and generations. For he paid to the gods abominable offerings, by beginning to slaughter human victims.[4]

As for Historia Norwegiae, it contains roughly the same information as Ynglingatal. If the latter does not explicitly describe him as a king, this information should probably be removed. As for Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalibus, you can consult the article Disa. But I frankly don't know if the information about Freyr is from the Historia Gentibus. When I wrote it, I only cited the Disa legend as described in Nordisk familjebok.--Wiglaf 06:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


Ah, indeed. I just read up in this now in the Owl edition and it's indeed not very clear there how much of the story comes from HdGS. They say "hon omnämnes redan af Olaus Magni" but that the story was further developed by J. Messenius. They also say that the king in the story was either Frey or Sigtrud. I wonder which version has which name. It would certainly be interesting to read up on this and it may well merit a mention in the article but we'd better remove it until we can figure out just what the facts are. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 16:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Freyr in the Icelanders' sagas[edit]

I'm collecting references to Freyr in the Icelanders' sagas. I'm having a bit of trouble working them into the article because I don't feel they're important enough to be quoted at length the way Adam of Bremen and the Eddaic references are. The sagas are written more than two centuries after Christianization and their take on Norse paganism is considered to be less important than that of Adam of Bremen, who had contemporary pagan sources, and Snorri Sturluson, who had access to a lot of old pagan poetry. Adam and Snorri can be quoted at length but those Icelanders' sagas accounts should be summarized.

Víga-Glúms saga[edit]

The Víga-Glúms saga describes the sacrifice of an ox to Freyr.

Og áður Þorkell fór á brott frá Þverá þá gekk hann til hofs Freys og leiddi þangað uxa gamlan og mælti svo: "Freyr," sagði hann, "er lengi hefir fulltrúi minn verið og margar gjafar að mér þegið og vel launað, nú gef eg þér uxa þenna til þess að Glúmur fari eigi ónauðgari af Þverárlandi en eg fer nú. Og láttu sjá nokkurar jartegnir hvortú þiggur eða eigi."

En uxanum brá svo við að hann kvað við og féll niður dauður og þótti Þorkatli vel hafa við látið og var nú hughægra er honum þótti sem þegið mundi heitið. - [5]

"Indeed, before Thorkel left Thverá, he went to Frey’s temple, and taking an old steer up thither, made this speech:--”Thou, Frey,” said he, “wert long my protector, and many offerings hast thou had at my hands, which have borne good fruit to me. Now do I present this steer to thee, in the hope that Glum hereafter may be driven by force off this land, as I am driven off it; and, I pray thee, give me some token whether thou acceptest this offering or not.”

Then the steer was stricken in such a way that he bellowed loud and fell down dead, and Thorkel took this a a favourable omen. Afterwards he was in better spirits, as if he thought his offering was accepted and his wish ratified by the god." - [6]

Hallfreðar saga[edit]

Urðu skipverjar allir á það sáttir að þeir skyldu heita á guðin til þess að þeim gæfi byr að sigla brottu af Noregi nokkur til heiðinna landa. Svo var heitið stofnað að þeir skyldu gefa fé og þriggja sálda öl Frey ef þeim gæfi til Svíþjóðar en Þór eða Óðni ef þá bæri aftur til Íslands.

I can't find an English translation online. Basically they decide to sacrifice to Freyr if they get favorable wind to go to Sweden and to Thor or Odin if they get favorable wind for a journey to Iceland. Not a very important reference but it does its tiny part to strengthen the theme of Freyr's association with Sweden. - Haukur Þorgeirsson

Gísla saga[edit]

A chieftain named Þorgrímr Freysgoði ("priest of Freyr") sacrifices to Freyr at winter nights.

Þorgrímur ætlaði að hafa haustboð að veturnóttum og fagna vetri og blóta Frey.

"Thorgrim meant to have a harvest feast on the first night of winter, and to sacrifice to Frey." - [7]

Later he is killed and we have this interesting passage on his mound:

Varð og sá hlutur einn er nýnæmum þótti gegna að aldrei festi snæ utan og sunnan á haugi Þorgríms og eigi fraus; og gátu menn þess til að hann myndi frey svo ávarður fyrir blótin að hann myndi eigi vilja að freri á milli þeirra. - [8]

And now, too, a thing happened which seemed strange and new. No snow lodged on the south side of Thorgrim's howe, nor did it freeze there. And men guessed it was because Thorgrim had been so dear to Frey for his worship's sake that the god would not suffer the frost to come between them. - [9]

This is the only passage from the Icelanders' sagas which I think might be worth quoting in the article. - Haukur Þorgeirsson

Vatnsdœla saga[edit]

Vatnsdœla saga has an elaborate story about a statue of Freyr, here are some of the money quotes.


Finnan svarar: "Þetta mun fram koma sem eg segi og það til marks að hlutur er horfinn úr pússi þínum, sá er Haraldur konungur gaf þér í Hafursfirði, og er hann nú kominn í holt það er þú munt byggja og er á hlutnum markaður Freyr af silfri. Og þá er þú reisir bæ þinn mun saga mín sannast."
...
Konungur svarar: "Þar kann eg þó eigi af að taka nema það sé til nokkurs gert og vilji Freyr þar láta sinn hlut niður koma er hann vill sitt sæmdarsæti setja."
Ingimundur kvað sér fýst á að vita hvort hann fyndi hlutinn eða eigi þá er grafið væri fyrir öndvegissúlum hans: "Kann og vera að það sé eigi til engis gert. Er nú og eigi því að leyna herra að eg ætla að gera eftir Finnum þeim er mér sýni héraðsvöxt og landsskipan þar sem eg skal vera og ætla eg að senda þá til Íslands."
...
Ingimundur kaus sér bústað í hvammi einum mjög fögrum og efnaði til bæjar. Hann reisti hof mikið hundrað fóta langt og er hann gróf fyrir öndvegissúlum þá fann hann hlut sinn sem honum var fyrir sagt.
Þá mælti Ingimundur: "Það er þó satt að segja að eigi má við sköpunum sporna en þó skal nú á þetta góðan hug leggja. Bær sjá skal heita að Hofi." - [10]

Can't find an English translation online. The gist is that it is predicted that Ingimundr should move to Iceland where he will find his statue again. This proves true, he finds the object while digging holes for his high seat pillars. He erects a temple and names his homestead Hof ("temple").

I'm not sure what to do with this story. There are a couple of other stories where the gods guide a settler to the home they intend for him in Iceland but nothing quite like this. At any rate it's interesting that a pouch-sized statue of Freyr is mentioned - it might have looked like the one found at Rällinge which I linked to a picture of above. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 15:50, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hrafnkels saga[edit]

Hrafnkels saga deals with Hrafnkell, a priest of Freyr, who has a horse dedicated to the god - Freyfaxi. This horse gets him into a lot of trouble and he ends up renouncing his faith in gods. I'm not sure what to make of that. The Hrafnkels saga article treats this in some detail. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Merging sections[edit]

I'm concerned that as sections are expanded the article may be getting a bit long. I'm thinking of merging the "Other traditions" section into Yngvi and the "Ballad of Veraldur" section into Fjölnir. It really seems quite a stretch to say that Veraldur is Freyr because of the "veraldar goð" connection (though the idea does merit a mention). Veraldur seems to correspond much more closely to Fjölnir and the material might be better treated there. On the other hand I think there should be a bit more here about Fróði. Thoughts? - Haukur 21:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Implementing this. - Haukur 20:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The Ring Oath[edit]

The ring-oath, quoted in Landnámabók, may deserve a mention.

[E]k vinn eið at baugi, lögeið. Hjálpi mér svá Freyr ok Njörðr ok inn almáttki Áss sem ek mun svá sök þessa sækja eða verja eða vitni bera eða kviðu eða dæma sem ek veit réttast ok sannast ok helzt at lögum ok öll lögmæt skil af hendi leysa, þau er undir mik koma, meðan ek em á þessu þingi. - [11]

I take oath upon the ring, a lawful one (lögeid) so help me Frey and Niord and the Almighty God, to this end that I shall in this case prosecute or defend or bear witness or give award or pronounce doom according to what I know to be most right and most true and most lawful, and that I will deal lawfully with all such matters in law as I have to deal with while I am at this Thing. - [12]

I'm not sure how best to work this into the article. Keeping it here for reference. - Haukur 01:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Hervarar saga / Gátur Gestumblinda[edit]

This paragraph from Hervarar saga is quite relevant.

Heiðrekr konungr blótaði Frey. Þann gölt, er mestan fekk, skyldi hann gefa Frey. Kölluðu þeir hann svá helgan, at yfir hans burst skyldi sverja um öll stór mál, ok skyldi þeim gelti blóta at sónarblóti. Jólaftan skyldi leiða sónargöltinn í höll fyrir konung, ok lögðu menn þá hendr yfir burst hans ok strengja heit. [13]

King Heithrek worshipped Frey, and he used to give Frey the biggest boar he could find. They regarded it as so sacred that in all important cased they used to take the oath on its bristles. It was the custom to sacrifice this boar at the 'sacrifice of the herd.' On Yule Eve the 'boar of the herd' was led into the hall before the King. Then men laid their hands on his bristles and made solemn vows. [14]

Historia Norvegiae[edit]

Finally found the thing, it does mention Freyr.

Vetus prosapia regum Norwegie a Swethia sumpsit exordium, unde eciam inhabitata est Trondemia, que patria principalis est in Norwegia. Rex itaque Ingui, quem primum Swethie monarchiam rexisse plurimi astruunt, genuit Neorth. Qui uero genuit Froy. Hos ambox tota illorum posteritas per longa secula ut deos uenerati sunt. Froyr uero genuit Fiolni, qui in dolio medonis dimersus est. Cuius filius Swegthir nanum in petram persequitur nec redisse dicitur, quod pro certo fabulosum creditur.

The ancient family of Norwegian kings traced its beginnings from Sweden, from which Trøndelag, the chief law province of Norway, was also settled. King Yngve, who according to a great many was the first ruler of the Swedish realm, became the father of Njord, whose son was Frøy. For centuries on end all their descendants worshipped these last two as gods. Frøy engendered Fjolne, who was drowned in a tun of mead. His son, Sveigde, is supposed to have pursued a dwarf into a stone and never to have returned, but this is plainly to be taken as a fairy-tale. (Fisher's translation)

Compare with the line in Íslendingabók: i Yngvi Tyrkjakonungr. ii Njörðr Svíakonungr. iii Freyr. iiii Fjölnir. sá er dó at Friðfróða. v Svegðir. etc. [15]

Swedish Freyr Statue[edit]

It is odd that this article does not include mention of of a statue that was found in Sweden that is often described as Freyr. I suppose the reason that it is associated with Freyr is the erect phallus of the statue. I've read in numerous places that it is from the 11th century. Does anyone know where it is on display in Sweden? Here's an image of it: [16] :bloodofox: 07:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

You can buy a copy of it in the museum of Gamla Uppsala.--Berig 07:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I know. This is my first point under "Ideas for improving the article" above. I still haven't been able to find a public domain picture of the statue. Haukur 09:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Woops, I somehow completely missed your entire proposal above, Haukurth. My fault. I think getting a public domain won't be a problem, especially if we know where the statue is located. I have sent them an e-mail asking them if they house the statue so we will at least know where it's at. :bloodofox: 22:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The statue in question can be found not in the Gamla Uppsala museum but instead at the Swedish Museum of National Antiquities in Stockholm. Here is the original statue: [17]. The statue's inventory number is 14232. According to the Gamla Uppsala museum, the statue is 9 centimeters high. This is at least a solid reference for the statue. :bloodofox: 05:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I am pretty sure I have seen copies for sale in the Museum at Gamla Uppsala. But on the other hand, you can buy copies at any Viking/medieval festival.--Berig 18:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It would make sense that they do. In any case, if anyone can go there and take a photograph that may be our best bet. I may be able to do so this Summer. :bloodofox: 19:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you going to Stockholm this summer?--Berig 19:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, on foot no less! So, there's the risk that we may turn back before getting to Stockholm but that is the goal. There are a lot of things I'd like to see there and the Freyr statue is now one of them. :bloodofox: 22:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Cropped version. Original file.
Here is some additional information from the Swedish Museum of National Antiquities:
"The Frey statuette that is on display in our exhibition was found 1904 on the grounds of the farm Rällinge in Lunda parish in the province of Södermanland, Sweden. There is different information about who found it – the farmer in his garden or a 12 year old boy in the potato patch, who then sold it to the farmer who, in any case, sold it to the museum. Due to the finding circumstances the context of the statuette is not known (if it derives from a grave or something else), but it dates from the Viking Age, that is ca 800-1050 A.D." :bloodofox: 02:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if you find this interesting, but Rällinge is not just any place. It is an old royal estate which is believed to be identical with the Ræningi of Ynglingatal, where king Ingjald was killed (Ræningi is thought to be a mispelling of Rælingi). The location also has a large barrow called "Ingjald's barrow". Since Freyr was held to be the ancestor of Ingjald's clan, the Ynglings, a statue of Freyr is a fitting find in the location.--Berig 09:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
That is interesting and it's something I've never heard before! I thought it was just some random farm :) Haukur 09:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Self-correction: Just googling for the name Rällinge, I can't verify whether it was a royal estate, but then again, many royal estates were given away to the church and to noblemen long before the extant documents on the estates were written down (often it is only the place name that reveals that it was such a place). However, Rällinge sports a hill fort, Ingjald's barrow and is frequently said to be the same place as the royal estate Ræningi. Here is a good Swedish article on the location.--Berig 10:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Very interesting! I also thought it was some random farm... :bloodofox: 23:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[outdent] Heh, uh, I found a *cough* decent image on Flickr of the statue, so far the only free image I have encountered. I uploaded it, it's currently the best we have, I presume. –Holt TC 20:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's something! Thanks for digging that up. Perhaps it will inspire a better shot of it. :D :bloodofox: (talk) 22:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Olaus Magnus' Frö[edit]

The god to the right might be Frö.

A woodcut from Olaus Magnus' wonderfully illustrated Historia de gentibus septentrionalibus. The man to the right is speculated to be Frö (although I do not know if this is solely based on the woodcut itself, or the text in Historia, neither do I know who it is that thinks that it is Frö), see image description on Commons. I do not have the text that this woodcut illustrates, but I can attempt to get a hold of it. –Holt TC 21:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Interesting.. I wonder what they base it on. Nice hats too! :bloodofox: (talk) 22:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Fravashi[edit]

Because of the alleged connection with frawjaz, I find it interesting to look at a possible connection also to the parallell development to the avestan-zoroastrian concept fravashi de- or connoting guardian spirit in this tradition. As the avestan tradition seem to be developed from an Asura oriented culture, in opposition to the more Deva oriented Vedic tradition, the connection to the european/nordic cult appears credible, linking the Æsir with the Asura, for instant (although in spite of Freyr as a Vanir). --Xact (talk) 10:18, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Parallels[edit]

I removed the following:

Traditions related to Freyr are also connected with the legendary Danish kings named Fróði, especially Frotho III or Peace-Fróði. He is especially treated in Book Five of Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum and in the Ynglinga saga. His reign was a golden age of peace and prosperity and after his death his body was drawn around in a cart.

In Catholic Christianity several saints have domains and rites similar to those of Freyr. In some areas of Western-Europe, Saint Blaise was honored as the patron saint of plowmen and farmers. The benediction of grain prior to seeding was associated with him and on Saint Blaise's Day, February 3, a procession was held in his honor. In the procession, a man representing the saint was drawn on a cart throughout the countryside. In some villages, Saint Blaise was also considered a patron of human fecundity and young women wishing to marry prayed before his statue.[1] Also noteworthy in this context are the phallic saints who were patrons of human fertility.

In Scandinavia and England, Saint Stephen may have inherited some of Freyr's legacy. His feast day is December 26 and thus he came to play a part in the Yuletide celebrations which were previously associated with Freyr, such as the consumption of the traditional Christmas ham.[2] In old Swedish art, Stephen is shown as tending to horses and bringing a boar's head to a Yuletide banquet.[3] Both elements are extracanonical and may be pagan survivals.

Another saint with a possible connection to Freyr is the 12th century Swedish King Eric. The farmers prayed to St. Eric for fruitful seasons and peace and if there was a year of bad harvest they offered a corn ear of silver to him or gave horses to the church. At May 18, his feast day, the relics of St. Eric were drawn in a cart from Uppsala to Gamla Uppsala. The cult of St. Eric was the only cult of a saint which was allowed after the reformation.[4]

I can't tell from the way this is written if the sources are making the parallel to Freyr or just the editor here. If it is the latter it is original research. Ekwos (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Another Toponym?[edit]

Surely Freystrop near Milford Haven in Pembrokeshire is another toponym? There are a number of Norse placenames and surnames in Pembrokeshire and the Gower. I am not an expert on Norse languages. but I would guess that Freystrop is a corruption of something like "Freyrstorp" - Freyr's hamlet or village? If someone who knows better than I do agrees, maybe this could be added? Sasha (talk) 10:47, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

You could find a source where someone knowledgeable about such things says they think it refers to the god and isn't just of some other origin that happens to end up looking like the god. 74.85.239.23 (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Cernunnos association[edit]

Freyr is identified with the Celtic god Cernunnos, or Herne, due to similarities like his horns but he is not the same god. I have seen this many times in various books and online sources where Freyr is associated with Cernunnos and also that he is a horned god. Anyone concur? I didn't want to edit the article and make a mess of things so I'm posting here for others to consider. Thenorsegods [18] Armorbeast (talk) 20:17, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Guy's name[edit]

The current intro reads

Freyr (sometimes anglicized Frey...

which is utter poppycock. The guy's name is overwhelmingly Frey, just like any other name from Old Norse (Olaf, not Olafr). Given that Frey is the WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME of this God both among laypeople and professional scholars, is there some very good reason for the page being here? or does it need to be moved? — LlywelynII 04:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

References[edit]

Don't use these on talk pages, people...  — LlywelynII 04:36, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Berger 1985, pp. 81-84.
  2. ^ Spears, James E. Folklore, Vol. 85, No. 3. (Autumn, 1974), pp. 194-198. JSTOR
  3. ^ Berger 1985, pp. 105-112.
  4. ^ Thordeman 1954.

Using Deity/Deities when speaking generically.[edit]

What is wrong with using deity or deities when speaking generically?

Lucifer Morningstar 01 (talk) 10:04, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Just saying that gods are deities but not all deities are gods. Some are goddesses. I am not arguing from any political correctness standpoint rather from a technical correctness standpoint. There are male deities (gods) and female deities (goddesses). Just saying that there is a more generic term for both (gods and goddesses) so why not use it? It is like saying that Emperors are Imperials but not all Imperials are Emperors. Some are Empresses. Likewise Kings are royalty but not all royalty are kings. Some are queens.

Lucifer Morningstar 01 (talk) 04:32, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be confused. 'The common nouns god and deity are synonyms in the English language. That doesn't change when the nouns are pluralized. The term god is also far more common than deity in the English language and it is probably for this reason that this term is used here. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

"You seem to be confused.": I do not think so. "'The common nouns god and deity are synonyms in the English language.": I know that. But I also know that it is incorrect for them to be so. "That doesn't change when the nouns are pluralized.": Same response to the singular form. "The term god is also far more common than deity in the English language and it is probably for this reason that this term is used here.": I understand that but it is still used incorrectly.

Lucifer Morningstar 01 (talk) 01:42, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

See linguistic prescriptivism. No one gets to decide what is 'correct' and 'incorrect' in the English language—certainly not an anonymous Wikipedia editor. Since you have no valid reason for these edits, they'll simply be reverted whenever they're made unless other corrective action occurs. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:51, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

"Since you have no valid reason for these edits, they'll simply be reverted whenever they're made unless other corrective action occurs.": No valid reason? Does not my first line of argument count for anything?

Lucifer Morningstar 01 (talk) 03:12, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Again, you seem to be confused. Both gods and goddesses are gods. Is English a second language for you? :bloodofox: (talk) 03:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

"Again, you seem to be confused.": I do not think I am. "Both gods' and 'goddesses' are 'gods'.": That is like saying both Emperors and Empresses are Emperors. "Is English a second language for you?": No.

Lucifer Morningstar 01 (talk) 09:13, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Then what you need is a standard English dictionary. Both gods and goddesses are gods. This is "correct" in so far that this is common English usage. Your personal, idiosyncratic preferences do not take precedent over standard English usage on Wikipedia. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

"Then what you need is a standard English dictionary.": Based on British English, U.S.A English, Australian English, another country's English e.t.c.? "This is "correct" in so far that this is common English usage.": Common usage does not necessarily equal correct usage.

Lucifer Morningstar 01 (talk) 09:19, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm done with this conversation. Until you have an argument why the original usage of "gods" on this article is inferior to "deities", I'm going to go ahead and assume you're trolling. As a result, you'll simply be reverted without further discussion anywhere you feel necessary to purge an article of the term "gods" in place of "deities". :bloodofox: (talk) 18:59, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I am no troll.

Lucifer Morningstar 01 (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Dark-coloured Victims[edit]

Wouldn't this probably be referring to hair-colour, considering the scarcity of bruthas in ancient Scandinavia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.76.231.228 (talk) 07:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Toponyms in Old Norse ...?[edit]

Hi,
any particular reason that the toponyms from Norway are spelled with Old Norse or Icelandic ortography?
Like "Freysvǫllr" for "Frøysvoll", etc.? Seems like a back-formation. It isn't done with toponyms in Sweden, so why not keep it consistent?.
T 88.89.5.214 (talk) 00:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Requested move 14 October 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Redirects or disambiguation pages can be created at editorial discretion or through further discussion outside of the RM process TonyBallioni (talk) 06:20, 21 October 2017 (UTC)


FreyrFrey – Frey is the extremely common anglicized name according to ngram 86.97.129.224 (talk) 06:08, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:32, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
  • @86.97.129.224: And Freyja to Freya. Better discuss these 2 moves. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:32, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose pending a more convincing rationale. The n-grams graph is not convincing, since Frey is not typically referring to Freyr, but rather refers to lots of people named Frey. It looks to me like it makes more sense to go the other way, and move Frey (disambiguation) to Frey. Dicklyon (talk) 04:42, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose I support Dicklyon's suggestion to make Frey the disambiguation page for the name Frey, and link it to Freyr as referring to the Norse god.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 09:22, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Support as nominator Frey is the overwhelmingly common name for the god Frey in English, as it is the anglicization of the term Freyr. Most English speakers who have a common knowledge of the subject won't even know what is Freyr. The disambiguation shouldn't be moved to Frey as the deity is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:RECENT applies in the case of other Frey's. The same condition is true for Freya. On the WP:ENGLISH Wikipedia, we have to use to English term, not the Norse term. We don't use "Odinn" for Odin or "Torr" for Thor just because the original Norse term was written in that way. We use the WP:COMMONNAME for them in English, which may have something to do with Marvel. For Freyr and Freyja, the common names in English are Frey and Freya.

The Oxford Dictionary, which is the standard authority of words in English, uses Frey and Freya respectively. The dictionary doesn't even list Freyja as an alternative term in English, a merit Freyr has. Other English dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster and others also use Frey and Freya at an overwhelming level. I haven't seen any other reputable dictionary writing Freyr or Freyja, unless it is written as a synonym/redirect for Frey and Freya. 86.97.129.224 (talk) 11:24, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Comment @LlywelynII: has shown his interest in moving this article to Frey earlier. Their comment was
"The current intro reads Freyr (sometimes anglicized Frey which is utter poppycock. The guy's name is overwhelmingly Frey, just like any other name from Old Norse (Olaf, not Olafr). Given that Frey is the WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME of this God both among laypeople and professional scholars, is there some very good reason for the page being here? or does it need to be moved?" 86.97.129.224 (talk) 12:25, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment @Andrewa: For their opinion about this. 86.97.129.224 (talk) 15:31, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Keep the nominative -r. Keep Frey a redirect to Freyr. Freyr appears in a mountain of academic material, which dwarfs any other form in usage. In the English-speaking world, Freyr has yet to see the pop culture representation that figures such as Odin and Thor have. (And if you haven't already, see WP:OLDNORSE.) :bloodofox: (talk) 03:18, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
The above links show that Frey appears more in academic sources than Freyr. 86.98.77.91 (talk) 03:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure which link you're referring to. I'm assuming you're referring to Google Scholar. If so, no, it doesn't. Google Scholar picks up a lot of general audience works, unrelated items, and outright blather, as any search demonstrates. Search results yield a tiny fragment of what's out there. Specialist texts stick to Old Norse forms with few exceptions — and for very good reason. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Look at this line from WP:OLDNORSE -"When no particular Anglicized form can be said to be in common use in everyday English and English speaking scholars use the standardized Old Norse spelling, use the standardized Old Norse spelling except replace the o-ogonek character (ǫ) with the character 'ö'." However, Frey is a common term that is used in everyday English and hence an exception to the policy, even if there is no huge coverage like Thor or Odin. If Google Scholar too can't be treated for comparing the terms, then what can be used here, eh? (Ngram etc exhausted) I have given links to Oxford Dictionary and Merriam Webster, which are English dictionaries. They use Frey, which is enough to prove that Frey is a more common English term than Freyr. Academics use both Frey and Freyr, if you just go through the Scholar link manually, you can see that. Hence an exception to WP:OLDNORSE. Then WP:COMMONNAME can be applied, where Frey is common. 86.97.129.224 (talk) 11:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
"Frey" is by no means "a common term used in everyday English". As I mentioned above, the figure has nowhere near the presence in popular culture as Thor or Odin. Can you think of a single reasonably well known reference to Freyr in English-speaking modern popular culture? Speciality works dwarf popular culture mentions in this case, which means the Old Norse form is what we defer to, as scholars who specialize in this material overwhelmingly do. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose On the basis of a poor and unconvincing rationale and the usual misunderstanding of WP:UE. AusLondonder (talk) 17:27, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose due to rationale Currently, this should be opposed due to the conditions of WP:OLDNORSE. However, fellow IP has a point about WP:ENGLISH and common people not recognizing. If changes are made to the policy OLDNORSE, I would support this. Also, OLDNORSE states that all alternate names be mentioned in the lead, which was not the case before I edited the article. 31.215.114.79 (talk) 11:40, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Neutral, but support continuing redirection of Frey to Freyr if the article is not moved. Very common way of referring to the Norse god and definitely the primary meaning of Frey. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:22, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Possible support Reached this spot after following a problematic shared IP. Frey is shown to be more common than Freyr on ngram. Even if false positives do appear, the name Frey is derived from Freyr, the name of the Norse god. IP's points about the dictionaries also strikes a chord with me. If Freyr is so common, why is it that no English Dictionary mentions Freyr, while Frey is mentioned ? Hence possible support, possible because I had no prior knowledge of the Norse policy and am currently acting according to my common sense. Also Strong Support of redirecting Frey to Freyr if not moved, as per Wikipedia:Primary topic. King Prithviraj II (talk) 16:58, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Scholarly usage overwhelmingly prefers Freyr. Of the English-language survey works on Norse mythology and religion that I have to hand, Hilda Ellis Davidson, E. O. G. Turville-Petre, Rudolf Simek, Thomas DuBois, and the most recent, Christopher Abram (2011) all use Freyr. Only John Lindow uses Frey. Less importantly, I personally think when I read "Frey" in English that one of the many people with that surname is being referred to. In view of the n-gram results, the redirect Frey should IMO continue to point to this article; otherwise I would have thought better to have it point to Frey (disambiguation). Yngvadottir (talk) 20:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.