Talk:Godfrey of Bouillon
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Bias against Count Raymond IV of Toulouse
I removed the biased comments against Raymond IV of Toulouse in the very last sentences of the "First Crusade" section. These views of Raymond as an angry, arrogant old man are not confirmed by the sources and are recognized by historians today as distortions popularized by now outdated authors like Steven Runciman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryOfTheCrusades (talk • contribs) 14:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
It is said that Godfrey found a "Order of Sion" in Holy Land.
Is it true ?
User:Siyac 11:17, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"In 1100 Godfrey was able to impose his authority over Acre, Ascalon, Arsuf, Jaffa, and Caesarea. "
I have a source that says that in 1101 Baldwin I conquered Arsuf, Caesarea, in April, May and May respectively, and Acre in May 1004.
This source would be Fulcher of Chartres, Historia Hierosolymitana, II. viii. 1-4 [Ryan, pp. 151-2]
What is the truth of this?
- That should be clarified I guess...those cities were not actually conquered until Baldwin I's reign, but they sort of paid tribute to Jerusalem when Godfrey was still alive (Fatimid Egypt had basically abandonded them). Adam Bishop 20:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Is anything known about his personal life? Was he ever married and did he have any children? As cited in the article, many people believe that he was not married and had no children, among them Steven Runciman, the historian of the Crusades. However, the authors of "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America before 1700", 8th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis argue that he was in fact married to de Mandeville and had a son named William of Boulogne. They believe that Geoffrey de Boulogne cited in the English records is in fact Godfrey and that it was common, especially during the 1st Crusade, not to take wives and children along. It's not inconsistent with the practice of the day to leave the wife and children at home, especially given the treacherous traveling conditiond. The Weir genealogy source is cited often on Wikipedia. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:18, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
- Did you read footnote #2? The whole thing was just speculation with no documentary basis, only the fact that Geoffrey and Godfrey, as names, share a common origin, and so maybe the Godfrey in Jerusalem and the Geoffrey in England were the same person. Murray directly addressed this name equivalence and showed that in the same English documents that name Geoffrey of Boulogne, other men named Godfrey also appear, demonstrating that contemporary scribes distinguished between the two names. Likewise in the documents naming Godfrey, there appear Geoffreys, showing that Crusader sources made the same distinction. Clearly the two names were not the same at the time. Further, it is not just that there is no evidence for Godfrey having a wife or children. Rather his unmarried state is explicit. It is unreasonable to throw out this direct testimony in favor of woulda, coulda, shoulda speculation that is entirely without foundation, except for the supposed identity of the names, now known to be flawed. Agricolae (talk) 02:55, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Some IP repeatedly posts this into the article under trivia:
"His descendance has strong footholds in the Golden Triangle limited by the cities of Bruxelles, Charleroi and Liege. Many settled in Lodelinsart, a small city near Charleroi. Genetic resemblance is also found in central Limousin, France, in a small town called Belzannes. This emigration may have been caused by the troubled history of Belgium ever since it seceded from the French Kingdom. Waves of emigration occurred especially after the two World Wars."
What does post-world war emigration has to do with Godfrey? What is descendance supposed to mean, when Godfrey had no offspring? How far is the Golden Triangle in Belgium? (If it is then edit the disambig page I linked to). Str1977 (smile back) 20:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
More Grail controversy
In the last paragraph is the phase "According to the controversial book, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, which provided much of the basis for The DaVinci Code." I thought it was proven in court that DaVinci Code did not take its basis from the earlier book.
- Not quite, though maybe I could have worded that better (how about "provided much of the background for The DaVinci Code"?). The ruling was a little narrower than that. The court basically ruled that the heart of the book was the fictional adventure of the characters, and the background material was not enough of the book that they could claim copyright infringement, and also that the claims about the Priory of Sion and Mary Magdalen have been published elsewhere, though HBHG is the most prominent publication. Brown has acknowledged that the book was one of the sources. There's more information about the whole Priory claim in that article. Fan1967 13:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- No...why would it? One of the Latin words for bullion and Bouillon happen to be the same (bullio), but if they are related, it's either a coincidence, or the name of the town is derived from the word. Nothing to do with Godfrey specifically. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Was killing a common practise?
This is my first post here so apologies for any mistakes.
"Once inside, the Crusaders killed many of the city's inhabitants; at the time, it was common practice with any captured city." Fist of all this sentence needs a reference in my opinion. Secondly, it gives the impression that it was also acceptable morally. Why should one justify such an act by saying it was common no something out of normal at that time. We have in Saladin an example that it really want a common practis everywhere. Zaigham16 (talk) 00:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- There's no doubt that sacking a city was commonplace if the besieged resisted. The reason that Saladin didn't allow his troops to sack Jerusalem was because the city was given up to him and he sold many of the inhabitants into slavery. The Muslims did the same thing as the Christians in Jerusalem on many occasions. For example, Baybars in Antioch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 04:39, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- Medieval rules of engagement allowed the attacker to basically slaughter everyone in a fortress who refused to surrender once the castle was captured. However, here we also have another twist: Infidels who, according to then current theological thought, were sons of the devil. The slaughter in Jerusalem of Jews and Muslims was terrible. Christians (Syrians and Armenians) were not harmed. Current accounts talk of blood flowing up to men's ankles and horses' fetlocks. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
- They killed everyone, but the Muslims had expelled all the Christians at the start of the siege, as they had let the Crusaders into Antioch, and to save the water supply. So they just weren't there; but everyone inside the city who they found was apparently killed. No one knows how many, but everyone had been aware for several months that the Crusaders were heading for Jerusalem & no doubt many had left the city before the siege. Crusaders were notoriously unable to distinguish between (bearded) Eastern Christians and Muslims, as other episodes showed. The slaughter was considered exceptional by contemporaries, and deplorable by many, especially as it was the holy city of Jerusalem. It is far from clear if it was ordered by the commanders. Johnbod (talk) 02:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Kingdom of Heaven
I have removed the undocumented supposed connection with the Kingdom of Heaven character, Godfrey of Ibelin. Other than the name, the two have nothing in common - date, place of origin, manner of death, social position, etc. Agricolae (talk) 04:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
French nobility? He was a subject of the Roman Emperor, the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire (East Franconia, HRE of the German Nation, Germany). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Liberation of Jerusalem?
"After the liberation of Jerusalem in 1099" If the entire Fatimid Garrison and 40,000 civilians of the city (heavily depopulating it) were steamrolled by the crusaders,can that hardly be called a liberation? Somebody please re-word that part.It was just a Siege gone really rough —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 02:57, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Crowns of Gold and Thorns
I'm not entirely happy with my work, even though it's backed up by an RS source (Cambridge University Press), so I'm wondering could anybody improve on it, preferably by finding the original source or sources for the claim that "he would never wear a crown of gold where his Saviour had worn a crown of thorns".
I originally requested a citation for:"As was typical of Godfrey's Christian ethics he refused to be crowned king in the city where Christ had died.". Then I rephrased the sentence backed by the aforementioned RS source (Cambridge University Press), to say that "he would never wear a crown of gold where his Saviour had worn a crown of thorns".
The 'traditional' reason for his refusal to be King (dating back in English at least to the 17th century, judging by a quick look at Google, and quite likely back to his own time or even his own actual or at least reported words) is that 'He would not wear a crown of gold where his Saviour had worn a crown of thorns', which makes a lot of sense especially when it seems widely agreed (except by Robert the Monk) that he never used the title King. So it seemed quite likely that 'where Christ had died' is wrong or at least misleading, in the sense of misrepresenting his reasoning, and since it's unsourced, I've replaced it with something backed by a RS.
I first learned the tradition as a primary schoolkid in Belgium (which claims him as a sort of anachronistic Belgian national hero), and it's also in Wikipedia France (see below), so it's not just an English tradition. However I don't know how old the 'crowns of gold/thorns' tradition is, nor which sources, if any, quote it before the 17th century. It seems to me that the tradition needs to be mentioned, so I've done so with RS backing, but it seems strange that it wasn't already mentioned long ago, which makes me a bit suspicious about its historicity, despite my RS backing. So if it eventually turns out that most reliable sources doubt it, we should probably simply mention the tradition in a footnote while adding that most reliable sources doubt it.
Incidentally, French Wikipedia (here) asserts the tradition as fact, but unfortunately cites no source:
La couronne de roi de Jérusalem lui est proposée après la prise de la ville, mais il la refuse, arguant qu'il ne peut porter de couronne d'or là où Jésus Christ a dû porter une couronne d'épines. (The crown of King of Jerusalem was offered to him after the capture of the city, but he refused it, arguing that he could not wear a crown of gold where Jesus Christ had to wear a crown of thorns.) Tlhslobus (talk) 01:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)