Talk:Hubert Lamb

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Environment / Climate change  (Rated Stub-class)
WikiProject icon This environment-related article is part of the WikiProject Environment to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the environment. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly categorized.
Read Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ and leave any messages at the project talk page.
Stub-Class article Stub  This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Climate change task force.
WikiProject Biography / Science and Academia (Rated Stub-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
Stub-Class article Stub  This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the science and academia work group.

View on Jones and Wrigley[edit]

My addition of information on Lamb's opinion of Jones and Wrigley's work was reverted with an edit summary saying that the source isn't sufficient. The source is a book written by Fred Pearce, an established science and environmental journalist who is widely published. If that source isn't good enough, then I don't know what would be sufficient. Cla68 (talk) 22:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Sounds shallow[edit]

The article says, "He was originally known as the "ice man" for his prediction of global cooling and a coming ice age but, following the UK's exceptionally hot summer of 1976, he switched to predicting a more imminent global warming." He doesn't sound like much of a climatologist, if all it took to change his mind on this matter was one hot summer. Is there nothing more to climatology than standing outside and saying, "Mm, feels to me like an ice age (or a global warming event) is coming"? --Nigelj (talk) 08:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I've revised the article a bit and think that's not so much of a problem now. However, as I recall the source suggests it was a series of summers that persuaded him, perhaps we can improve that. Maybe we should also find a source about the changing views of the time: Schneider in '71 supported the "ice age" hypothesis, then in '74 found less pollution / more CO2 warming effect than he'd allowed earlier, recalculated his work and retracted his earlier warning. It's possible that Lamb did something similar. . . dave souza, talk 12:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Have now gone over it and rephrased that part to make the timing of his developing ideas clearer, though it would still be nice to have more info about how Lamb's ideas changed. . . dave souza, talk 13:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
You won't find a good reference for this because it isn't true; in 1995, two years before his death, Lamb's "Climate, History and the Modern World" was republished as a second edition, and was just as scathing about AGW as ever. (talk) 15:52, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
In this 1995 second edition he writes (p.365) this about AGW: "The expected temperature changes have been widely announced in an ever-increasing volume of meteorological literature... The alarm that has been raised over the dislocation which such great changes would be liable to cause is entirely proper, even though the actual net outcome when natural climatic variations also have their effect is by no means certain... Despite the... uncertainties involved... the potential for disorganization and disaster is so great that the meteorologists' warnings must be taken as a very serious matter." So it's clear that he isn't universally scathing about AGW in 1995. However the "Climatic Research Unit" section does need improving since it implies that predictions of warming this century represent a "switch" from predictions of an ice age in the next 10,000 years. The final paragraph of the "Abrupt climate change and global warming" section already includes a quote from Lamb where he notes that these two predictions are not in conflict because of the different timescales involved. TimOsborn (talk) 15:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
The idea of a switch is stated in The History of the University of East Anglia, Norwich by Michael Sanderson, but I'm glad to accept that's a bit superficial and the newer wording works better for me. Can we add the point that in 1995 he commented that, despite uncertainty about AGW, "he potential for disorganization and disaster is so great that the meteorologists' warnings must be taken as a very serious matter."? . . dave souza, talk 17:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Have now made a few improvements and fixed a few things. Long-term cooling towards a glacial period and century-scale greenhouse-gas-induced warming are now stated as separate, non-conflicting, views (i.e. consistent with the quote in the later paragraph). The overall structure could still do with some work, since both "Climatic Research Unit" and "Abrupt climate change" sections cover cooling towards the next glacial period as well as GHG-induced warming -- i.e. these sections are not clearly differentiated by content. TimOsborn (talk) 16:13, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
The two sections seem to relate to timing rather than content, though there's some overlap. Would it work to omit the second subsection heading, making it one section on Climatic Research Unit and later writings? Alternatively, "His warnings of damage..." could start a new paragraph which could include the paragraph on "Lamb's 1977 book" before a section on his revised views as shown in the 1984 and 1995 revised editions of his writings? . . dave souza, talk 17:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Dubious info based loosely on Pearce[edit]

A recent addition to this article, which was removed, misrepresented Pearce's brief outline of "cast of characters" as well as being rather obviously incorrect. The addition "Lamb recruited Phil Jones and Tom Wigley, among others, to work at the CRU but later criticised their theories on man-made climate change as "simplistic."" changes "and others" to ", among others," implying more firmly that the next part applies to Jones and Wigley, and talks of "their simplistic theories of climate change", a statement by Pearce, not a quote from Lamb as the edit mistakenly suggests. Pearce then quotes Lamb as saying that increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere "should raise the world's temperature, although the effect may be smaller, perhaps very much smaller, than is usually supposed." That's a quote from Lamb's 1984 speech, which I've outlined in the article. As far as I know, Jones and Wigley are associated with paleoclimate reconstructions, and are not theoreticians dealing with the effects of greenhouse gases. As far as I've found, the book doesn't give dates for them joining CRU, and the addition seems to be more to do with their biographies than with Lamb's. Better sourcing needed if they're to be mentioned. . . dave souza, talk 13:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Hubert Lamb, the Original Climate Skeptic?[edit]

An interesting article by science historian Bernie Lewin at Quadrant: The Original Climate Sceptics

Re Lamb, Lewin writes:

[Lamb] issued this warning to his fellow meteorologists in 1994:
'A precarious and threatening situation has developed for climatology: a tremendous effort was made to land research funds in all countries, mostly the USA, on the basis of frightening people about the possible drastic effect of Man’s activities, and so much has been said about climate warming that there will be an awkward situation if the warming doesn’t happen or not to the extent predicted.’ [Heh -- pt]
Today, it is not widely known that our global warming consensus once faced such a prominent critic. Indeed, Lamb was one of the earliest and most vocal sceptics. Folks are often also surprised to learn that Lamb’s response to the warming scare was far from unusual. Many of the other leaders in the field during the 1970s also grew concerned about its distorting influence. Alas, the more they said so, the more they were marginalised on the wrong side of an increasingly polarised debate.

Interesting stuff, and worthy of review for this article & elsewhere, imo. --Pete Tillman (talk) 00:56, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

" much has been said about climate warming that there will be an awkward situation if the warming doesn’t happen..." And if you read his earlier work, you will also hear Lamb say, "there is no necessary contradiction between forecast expectations of (a) some renewed (or continuation of) slight cooling of world climate for some years to come, e.g. from volcanic or solar activity variations; (b) an abrupt warming due to the effect of increasing carbon dioxide, lasting some centuries until fossil fuels are exhausted and a while thereafter; and this followed in turn by (c) a glaciation lasting (like the previous ones) for many thousands of years.” — TPX 01:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Um. "[A] tremendous effort was made to land research funds in all countries, mostly the USA, on the basis of frightening people about the possible drastic effect of Man’s activities..." Clearer now? Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 02:56, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Red flag: "Bernie Lewin’s Hubert Lamb and the Transformation of Climate Science is available online from the Global Warming Policy Foundation". Perhaps another case of Adoration of the Lamb? As TPX notes, Lamb's views were complex, and Sanderson states that around 1975–76 Lamb's "dire predictions" of a holocaust within a century helped shape public opinion, as well as raising research fund from insurance companies. Unfortunately, warming has indeed happened since 1994, so "Heh -- pt" is unwarranted snark. No doubt Lamb's early projections will look interesting in 2075. . . dave souza, talk 07:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
As DS notes, this is GWPF stuff, and as you'd expect, highly biased. So lets not taint Lamb's page with it.
Also, "science historian Bernie Lewin"? Never heard of him. Google points me at which is about "the origins and impacts of Global Warming Alarmism in the history and philosophy of science" - so, no pretence at objective history there, more gonzo journalism. That also disclaims any acadmeic credentials; so (if you have any care for your own credibility) be cautious about how you push credentials for others William M. Connolley (talk) 12:36, 1 March 2015 (UTC)