Talk:I Can Only Imagine (MercyMe song)

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Good article I Can Only Imagine (MercyMe song) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
October 30, 2011 Good article nominee Listed

Necessity[edit]

Is this page really necessary? I don't see too many pages focusing on individual songs and their lyrics. - Cybjorg 20:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't feel it is, no. Perhaps an AfD is in order. The Hooded Man 01:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I expanded it from a stub. Apparently, the song is notable for crossing over from Christian radio to mainstream radio. Noelle De Guzman 14:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

152.163.100.133 03:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why everyone wants to destroy Wikipedia's pages, this is a well made page about a good song which can be used as reference for this band's fans. Do not delete articles unless all the information on it is false or it is extreamly small. 132.203.54.89 16:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I found the page useful as i had questions about this song that was answered.-Journeyman

I added that that song has been covered by Rita Springer. -WikiFiend90 14:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of this website is a free exchange of information. Sounds like it meets the criteria to me. -Logiccircuits

Suggestions to improve the article for Good Article review[edit]

The lead of the article is too short per WP:MOSINTRO. I am very familiar with the song. Didn't its popularity in secular markets become because of airplay after the September 11th attacks? Royalbroil 12:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it, given the song only became popular in mainstream markets in 2003 - I don't think this song was like, say, Superman (It's Not Easy) that got success because of 9/11.
I have a couple of documentaries from the band I could source for some other article stuff, and I haven't written about the music video left. I could also probably add some brief info on chart positions and it's lyrical themes. Toa Nidhiki05 13:41, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
There's a fair bit of work to do yet on the article before it will pass as a Good Article, so I hope that you want to do work on the fly. I'll try to help as my schedule permits. I've done a few GA already as you can see. Every sentence needs to be sourced by a Reliable Source. Either that or it should be removed. The quality of the source also needs to be analyzed. Ones with Wikipedia articles usually are fine. Ones like Billboard are golden since they're reputable and aimed at music. Jesus Freak Hideout is the best one specifically for Contemporary Christian music. Royalbroil 12:30, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
This source is comprehensive but I'm not convinced that it's very reliable. Maybe its content can be located in other reliable sources. I found it looking for content about September 11th attacks related to their popularity. Royalbroil 12:55, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Alright, so glad to see there are some more people to help. If this needs every sentence sourced, we have some work to do.
I'm not sure Billboard would cover a Christian song, not even a crossover one like this, but I'll check their archives. JFH is probably the best bet in terms of interviews and articles related to the song.
I'm not sure about the Joy97 one, either - It's information seems factual based on my knowledge of MercyMe via interviews and the like, but is unsourced, and they don't get the song name right until the end. Personally, I'd use it, but I'd actively search for a better, more reliable source to replace it. Toa Nidhiki05 13:48, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
At this point, I'd gander that while the source may not be reliable, the information in it is - all of the information about MercyMe signing a record deal because they couldn't handle distribution is verified by the band themselves on the Platinum edition of "Almost There". The information on the inspiration for Undone is correct, as is the critical reception to it. I'll include the source, but with a {{Better source}} tag, so we can possibly find a better source. Toa Nidhiki05 22:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Having Reliable sources is a requirement to passing GA and needing maintenance (like Better Source) will fail it per WP:GACR. Royalbroil 02:59, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Good point, then... Does anyone else know of a better source to add the 9/11 bit? Toa Nidhiki05 15:25, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Some suggestions[edit]

I noticed this article is being nominated to become a GA. I noticed some things on this article that might need change:

Lead
  1. The lead is too short. According to WP:Lead, only articles with 15,000–30,000 characters should have three paragraphs as the lead. I would just combine it into one paragraph.
  2. Unlink dates.
Background
  1. When using more than one reference back-to-back, make sure they are in numerical order (e.g. [3][2] should read [2][3])
  2. Unlink dates
  3. Use brackets instead of parentheses in quotations.
Composition
  1. Why is the image here? Is the band playing "I Can Only Imagine"?
  2. First sentence might be challenged.
  3. I would put the last sentence in the first paragraph.
Release and promotion
  1. I would use "number one" instead of its abbreviation.
  2. Unlink dates
  3. "It became one of the most requested songs not only at the Dallas radio station but also at radio stations across the United States as the band's label, INO Records, partnered with Curb Records to publicize the song." needs a citation.
  4. "To attract more mainstream sales, Curb released a physical single release in 2003, adding MercyMe's current single on Christian radio at that point, "Word of God Speak" as it's A-side." How do I know the release of the physical single was to attract more mainstream sales?
  5. "Eventually, the song cracked into many secular charts, including the Billboard Hot 100, Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks, Hot Adult Top 40 Tracks, Top 40 Mainstream, and Country Songs charts." Needs a citations. Also, put Billboard in italics.
Music video
  1. Needs references.
Chart performance
  1. Use brackets instead of parentheses.
  2. I would combine the two paragraphs in the Chart performance together.
  3. Write out number instead of using "#"
  4. Billboard should have italics.
  5. What is the RIAA? I know it's the Recording Industry Association of America, but not everyone knows that. Also, I believe the RIAA does shipments, not sales.
  6. I would link certified platinum to RIAA certification instead.
Other versions
  1. unlink date
  2. write out number
Charts
  1. I would label this "Charts and certifications" instead.
  2. I would use {{singlechart}} for the table. Not a necessity though.
References
  1. What makes Christianity Today International a RS? Also, the link puts me to http://www.kyria.com/ which is wrong.
  2. Use an en-dash "–" instead of a dash "-"
  3. Don't use the language parameter for English. It's already implied.
  4. accessdates are inconsistent. Some are YYYY-DD-MM while other are DD-MMMM-YYYY
  5. Ref 15 does not have a work nor a publisher
  6. What makes The Trades a RS?
  7. For ref 6, the title should have "review" in there somewhere. Also, Rovi Corporation is the publisher

I hope I helped you, and if I'm wrong on anything, don't listen to me. I hope this article passes GA! :)
Michael Jester (talk)

I haven't checked all of the changes but almost all seem like good ideas. I do strongly disagree with removing the photo of the band. How else do we know who the artist is without seeing their photo? The photo is on-topic in my opinion. I'm not concerned with in which section it is placed. Royalbroil 12:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Agreed about the image, but perhaps we could find one from one of the many live videos they have released of them playing the song live? I would add it myself (as well as images from the music video), but I have absolutely no clue how to take a good image of a music video. Otherwise the advice is solid, and I think we should work based off of it (to-do list, perhaps).
Also, while the RIAA does certify on shipments, I Can Only Imagine was certified specifically for 1,000,000 in digital sales, not physical sales - I've actually found other sources saying the song has closer to 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 in overall (digital and physical) sales, although I'll need to re-find them again.
Oh, and I have found two sources showing release dates for the physical single - CMT claims the single was released on January 1st, 2001[1], while Barnes and Noble asserts it was released on August 23, 2003.[2] Notably, though, B&N says the song was originally released in 2001. Would it be fine, then, to note January 1st, 2001 as the original release date, and August 23, 2003 as the re-issue? Toa Nidhiki05 15:30, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
You can't just add a frame or a portion from their video legally. The only way is if it passes Wikipedia:Fair use#Multimedia. The same thing for videos that other people took of them performing - you would need permission from the band and have it verified through OTRS. I disagree that the photo needs to be of them performing this specific song. It's not like you could tell if it really was or wasn't. For the sales history, you can easily list each statistic separately (digital vs vinyl). Fine about listing two dates if it was re-released. Royalbroil 02:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Hm, well that might be hard then... The only way to get approval would be either to Twitter, request on Facebook, or e-mail. Bart Millard is pretty active on Twitter, but I don't think he really replies to other tweets usually. I suppose just showing the band playing is reasonable (given nobody can really know what they were playing at the moment), so I'd agree to keep that. Toa Nidhiki05 13:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

To-do list[edit]

Music video
  1. Needs references.

Others are welcome to add, remove, or suggest additions. Toa Nidhiki05 15:35, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Source proposal[edit]

I found this source through a google search: http://www.mikecurb.com/about/pdf/1_records.pdf

It seems to be a comprehensive history of all of Curb Record's number 1 singles. Among other things, it lists Imagine as spending ten weeks atop the Billboard Singles Sales chart and two weeks atop a 'Christian Adult Contemporary' chart. I was wondering if the rest of you would consider this a legitimate source for that type of information. Just as a note, the single catalog number (73150) matches the number the Barnes and Noble site uses. Toa Nidhiki05 16:18, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

It looks like a self-published website, so I would say no per WP:USERG. Surely that information can be found elsewhere. I look directly at the official website for Billboard since it's the real source. While researching I found this which says that this song was the #9 most digital download of the year - IN 2010! Does the article mention that the song was re-released on a retrospective album [1] ? Royalbroil 12:54, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
I know - the song rarely ever leaves the top ten on iTunes. Perhaps someone that has a .biz account can check the information, because those charts (and histories) are on the .biz site? We know the date the source claims, so at least that is something. I don't have one (I think the prices are absurd), but maybe someone else does? Toa Nidhiki05 13:42, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Apparently Billboard.biz has a search thing so that you can see the charted songs an artist has had, but unless you are a member, you can't view the peak position. Perhaps we could get someone to look for us. Toa Nidhiki05 19:06, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Just an update, Mike Curb.com is linked to at the top right corner of Curb.com. Accordingly, I'm quoting that 'Curb Records asserts the song peaked at' those spots until we find someone to look through the Billboard archives. Toa Nidhiki05 19:55, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:I Can Only Imagine/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Shaidar cuebiyar (talk · contribs) 09:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Starting the review[edit]

I will be going through each of the criteria in order. I reserve the right to return to earlier comments/sections and revise/add to them until the review is finished. Unless otherwise indicated, maintain existing wikilinks and formatting. My review process could take about a week to ten days. If needed, I will allow an additional week for any requested changes to be made before making my decision.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Toolbox shows two problems at external links.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 09:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
    • The problem appears to be a regional issued regarding Vevo.com not releasing its material into some markets. Both links are to the Vevo.com website for the music video.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

</noinclude> A good article is—

  1. Criterion 1[edit]

  2. Well written:
    (a) the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
    (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

    Infobox

    1. Update the infobox according to Template:Infobox single.
    2. A-side? Is "I Can Only Imagine" the A-side and "Word of God Speak" the B-side? Or is this a double-A sided single?
    3. Release? Only first release as a single goes in the infobox. Move ref(s) & additional information for release(s) into Release and promotion section. While at Release fix the date format, i.e. {{Start date|2001|1|1}}.
    4. Put the Producer ref & info into main text (probably in Background) & Personnel section.

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. Length? Use duration template: {{Duration|m=4|s=8}}
    2. Delete the Reviews entry line: no longer used in this template.
    3. Recorded? When? We have it released on January 1, 2001 but recorded in 2001? What gives? Also need info on where it was recorded.

    Lead

    1. "I Can Only Imagine" > "I Can Only Imagine"
    2. a song recorded by > a single by
    3. [[contemporary Christian music|Contemporary Christian]]/[[Christian rock]] > United States [[contemporary Christian music|contemporary Christian]] and [[Christian rock]]
    4. and wonders the possibilities of what would be like to be in [[Heaven]] and in the presence of [[God]]. > and considers what it would be like to be in Heaven and in the presence of God. Note: delink Heaven & God, both are commonly understood terms.
    5. First released on an [[The Worship Project|independent record]] by MercyMe > In 1999 it was first issued as a track on ''[[The Worship Project]]'' by MercyMe on an independent record label. Note change to independent record includes formatting change.
    6. and re-recorded and included on their 2001 major-label debut album > The song was re-recorded and included on their 2001 major-label debut album
    7. , "I Can Only Imagine" was released as the album's [[lead single]]. > . "I Can Only Imagine" was issued on 1 January 2001 as the album's lead single.

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:15, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. It gained significant airplay on Christian radio formats in 2001 before gaining mainstream success in late 2003 and 2004, > During 2001, it gained significant airplay on Christian radio formats before crossing over to mainstream formats in late 2003 and into 2004.
    2. peaking at No. 5 on the [[Adult Contemporary (chart)|Adult Contemporary]] chart and No. 71 on the ''[[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]'' [[Billboard Hot 100|Hot 100]]. > On the Billboard [[Adult Contemporary (chart)|Adult Contemporary]] chart it peaked at No. 5 and No. 71 on the [[Billboard Hot 100|Hot 100]]. Delink Billboard (its wikilinked at Adult Contemporary and at Hot 100). Also note non-breakable space between No. and numeral(s).
    3. , and has sold almost three million copies in total. Is this also certified by RIAA?

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

    • Comment - First off, thanks for starting this review. I'm glad someone got to it, finally. :P
      • Now, I'll address the concerns you noted here:
      • Infobox 1, 3-4; fixed
        • Not quite: move the ref/notes out of the infobox and place them in appropriate positions of the main article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Infobox 2; Yes, the track is a double A-side - the single was officially released as 'I Can Only Imagine/Word of God Speak', similar to Kelly Clarkson's double A-side "A Moment Like This/Before Your Love". However, 'I Can Only Imagine' is the 'dominant' track and what the sales were counted towards. 'Word of God Speak', on the other hand, was marketed only to Christian radio.
      • Infobox 5-6; done
      • Infobox 7; I have not found any info on when it was recorded, so have just put the locations according to the inner liner notes of Almost There.
      • Lede 1-9; fixed
        • Not quite, L1: De-bold talking marks on single's title. L3: Use pipe with contemporary Christian not Contemporary Christian: few genre names are capitalised in the middle of a sentence (Christian rock is such an exception).
          • Done
      • Leded 10; no, but several sources have claimed three million in total sales, so I included it. They could very well also include worldwide sales (in addition to US physical and digital sales) or just adding up the double-platinum certification of the album, but quite a few sources have claimed near or at three million.
    • Note :Did you get to the toolbox yet?
      • No, not sure what you mean
        According to the Toolbox on this talkpage there are two links (both to vevo.com) that are problematic. These should be fixed a.s.a.p.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
        This could be a Region issue: when I clicked on the vevo ref[24] I get this message: Sorry! The page you are looking for is not available in your region. VEVO is working hard to make sure all of our videos are available worldwide. In the meantime, watch and enjoy your favorite videos through VEVO on YouTube.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
        • I think that might just be a regional thing, since Vevo blocks some videos in other countries.
    • Replies
      • I2: Its double-A sidedness should be mentioned in the Lead & main text, suitably reffed at the latter position.
      • L10: Sales claims require very good sources: e.g. RIAA, Nielsen Scan etc. If it is double-platinum where's the RIAA certification ref? Without such sources don't put the claim in the Lead (or main txt). But more on this at criterion 2.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:26, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Lead continued...

    1. Re: Dove Awards... Didn't Millard also win Songwriter of the Year which would include his work on this single? Could be included in Lead with suitable re-write and ref below in Awards sub-section.
      1. Yes, and I had previously included it. I removed it because the award pertains most directly to Millard, not the song itself, but I will re-add it if needed.

    Background

    1. Wikilinking of important/obscure terms should occur in the main text and is counted separately from the Infobox/Lead. Hence MercyMe should be linked at its first appearance in the main text.
      1. Done
    2. I prefer to have the title of the article (its main focus) up front of each section as soon as possible. So I would re-word the opening as: "I Can Only Imagine" was the debut single for United States [[contemporary Christian music|contemporary Christian]] and [[Christian rock]] band [[MercyMe]].
      1. Done
    3. If you use this intro, then change MercyMe's vocalist Bart Millard's father died from cancer when Millard was 18.[2] > When the band's vocalist, Bart Millard, was 18 his father died from cancer.[2] If you could find out the "when"? a time frame can be given e.g. early 1990s.
      1. The death was in 1991, so I will include that.
    4. 3rd sentence has too many 'record', reword.
      1. Done
    5. finally wrote the song Contradicts later information (see next ¶ first sentence). The song is not yet finally written, maybe the lyrics are finished? But the music is still to go.
      1. Good catch, changed
    6. Delink Jesus & Heaven. While there: the Lead mentions going to Heaven and in the presence of God which is slightly different from going to meet Jesus in Heaven: which phrase does Millard use?
      1. He uses both, but fixed to represent the 'composition' phrasing.
    7. Reformat song title inside direct quote, only single quote marks are used: e.g. "['I Can Only Imagine'] is one of"
      1. Done

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:26, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. Fix punctuation at end of sentence: random ideas,".[4]
      1. Done
    2. down the stuff... he [Millard] and I were > down the stuff... [Millard] and I were
      1. Done
    3. just a guide thing. He [Millard] said > just a guide thing. [Millard] said or just a guide thing. He said
      1. Done
    4. (and, later, was included in the 'Platinum Edition' of Almost There). > and, later, was included in the Platinum Edition of Almost There What year was the Platinum Edition released? The album was Pl in 2003 & 2×Pl in 2005.
      1. The 'Platinum' (or 'Five Year-anniversary edition') was released in 2005 or 2006, I believe.

    Composition

    1. First sentence:only use ref at end.
      1. Done
    2. Who wrote the music? Ref [9] has seven composers and Background above describes a group effort on the music but this article only has Millard as the song's writer. Ref [10] only has Millard for both lyrics and music. Perhaps an ASCAP search can provide an answer?
      1. The ASCAP search lists Millard as the sole lyricist. The two musicnotes documents list Millard as the lyricist and the rest of the band (as well as Pete Kipely and Millard) as the composers of the music.
    3. De-link Heaven and God.
      1. Done

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Infobox return

    1. Check wikilink to album article: [[Almost There (MercyMe album)|Almost There]] > [[Almost There]]
      1. Done

    Composition continued...

    1. Regarding this theme, Millard told > Millard explained to
      1. Done

    Release & promotion

    1. According to the July 2003 Fox News interview, the single "was recorded and released nearly two years ago". Which suggests it was recorded in late 2001 and released at about the time of the album in August(?) According to ref [12] it debuted on the Christian AC in November 2001. So check your release date of January 1. Note: the CMT website also has the album out on January 1, 2001,here not in August. You need a better ref for the single's release date.
      1. Removed the CMT ref and replaced with the Barnes and Noble ref, which explains the same thing you noted above.
    2. Re-write first sentence to start with "I Can Only Imagine" was re-recorded...
      1. Done
    3. Check acronyms, e.g. on some CCM formats & Christian CHR chart
      1. First was changed, second is good as it is a chart name.

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Infobox again

    1. What was Curb's involvement with the 2001 single's release? Was "Word of God Speak" issued as part of the double-A side at that time or first in 2003?
      1. I don't believe a physical single was released in 2001; rather, I think it was just released to radio. Curb wasn't even involved until INO brought them in to assist in marketing the song to mainstream (particularly Adult Pop) radio, as well as to release a physical single. I have a couple in-article sources confirming this. Toa Nidhiki05 23:53, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
        1. These details need to be definitively determined. If it was only a digital download and no Curb involvement in 2001 then the infobox and/'or Lead are to be adjusted to reflect this.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:05, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
          1. Its really impossible to determine, given most Christian singles don't get an official physical/digital single release, but rather are shipped to radio as the 'single' release. However, I can list a 'release' history section and link it to the infobox, indicating both its original and re-issue dates.
            Sounds like a good idea.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    Release & promotion continued

    1. Considering the article no longer has a definitive release date, try the third sentence as The single gained radio airplay on some contemporary Christian formats. Refs [12] & [13] cover this but are only needed for the next sentence (or one for each). By November, it peaked at number-one on the
      1. Done, great re-wording.
    2. In 2003, the song began gaining airplay on secular/mainstream radio[3] after Dallas radio station 100.3 Wild-FM's[14][15] morning show The Fitz Radio Program first played the song upon a caller's repeated requests[2] and the producer Tony Russell's urgings.[1][15] Needs reconstruction for clarification & consolidating refs. Possibility: In 2003, a Dallas mainstream radio station, 100.3 Wild-FM, first played the song on its morning show, The Fitz Radio Program.[2][14][15] They had responded to a caller's repeated requests and the urgings of the program's producer, Tony Russell.[1][3] If you use this, then check that the refs cover each part.
      1. Done
    3. Millard called into the radio station and spoke with the crew, and MercyMe came in and played the song live > Millard called-in and spoke with the crew; MercyMe then came in and played the song live
      1. Done
    4. As other mainstream stations around the country caught on
      1. Done
    5. to market the single to wider audiences
      1. Done
    6. [11] tells when the double-A single was released. So In September, INO and Curb also released a double A-side physical single, "Word of God Speak" and "I Can Only Imagine".[11]
      1. Done
    7. Eventually, the song cracked into secular charts, including the Billboard Hot 100,[19] Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks,[20] Hot Adult Top 40 Tracks,[21] Top 40 Mainstream,[22] and Country Songs charts.[23] Too many are listed here, keep Billboard Hot 100 (change wikilinkage & formatting) and probably and reached No. 5 on the Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks.[19][20] The rest are in Chart performance and Charts and certificates.

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Music video

    1. When was it released?
      1. No clue as to the actual release date.
    2. Bart Millard of MercyMe said about the inspiration for the video > Millard recalled the inspiration for the video was
      1. Done
    3. spelling: concerts
      1. Done
    4. other people, all holding an empty > other people, each holding an empty
      1. Done
    5. now have pictures of deceased relatives in them > now contain pictures of deceased relatives
      1. Done

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Reception

    1. Allmusic commented that Name names, wikilink first Allmusic. e.g. [[Allmusic]]{{'}}s Steve Losey commented
      1. Done
    2. Jesus Freak Hideout reviewer Kevin Chamberlin stated that > Jesus Freak Hideout's reviewer Kevin Chamberlin felt
      1. Done
    3. highlight on this album [Almost There] is > highlight on [Almost There] is
      1. Done
    4. ballad "I Can Only Imagine"... > ballad 'I Can Only Imagine'...
      1. Done
    5. Chart performance ¶1: the first four sentences give too much detail. Trim to cover the vital parts: peaked at No. 71, sixteen non-consecutive weeks. You should end up with just one sentence on this. Check ref tab order: lower goes first. (I think I've seen similar at Background when talking about The Worship Project.)
    6. Similar problem in last part of paragraph: trim.
      1. Merged the AC sentences
    7. After fixing similar issues in ¶2 & ¶3, they can be melded to make new ¶2
      1. Removed some bits, but retained most of the information from the Adult Pop chart by merging its sentences.
    8. Pl cert needs a RIAA ref. Ref[27] is not an independent source & so not reliable for this information. Try here. Note that RIAA has the release date as January 4, 2005.
      1. Done I think the date the RIAA using is the date for a digital release, so I'll add it to the soon-to-come 'release history' section.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    Other versions

    1. Both subsections are a little thin on content and could be put together with the MercyMe ones in ¶1 and cover versions in ¶2.
    2. The original version of the song was included on MercyMe's 1999 independent release The Worship Project.[5] > The original version of "I Can Only Imagine" was a track on MercyMe's 1999 independent release The Worship Project.[5]
      1. Done

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. Amazon tells me the Almost There (Platinum Edition) was released on August 29, 2006.here So reword 2nd sentence to start with In August 2006, Adj ref as needed.
    2. Done
    3. MercyMe recorded a version of the song for their iTunes Originals album.[29][30] > In March 2008 they issued another version for their iTunes Originals album.[29][30] Also, maintain wikilink but italics as shown.
      1. Done
    4. Two versions of the song were included in MercyMe's 2009 compilation album 10 > In 2009, two further variants were included on their compilation album 10
      1. Done
    5. Jeff Carson and Kathryn Scott both released versions of the song in 2003,[32]</ref> [33] with Carson's version peaking at No. 50 on the Country Songs chart.[34] > In 2003, Jeff Carson and Kathryn Scott each issued variants of the song.[32][33] Carson's version peaked at No. 50 on the Country Songs chart.[34]
      1. Done
    6. Wynonna Judd released a version of the song in 2005.[32] Emerson Drive released a version of the song in 2007.[35] > In 2005 Wynonna Judd issued her form of the song;[32] while in 2007 Emerson Drive provided theirs.[35] I've tried to reduce the overuse of 'version' and 'released' in this section.
    7. Done

    Track listing

    1. Start with 2003 CD release
      1. Done
    2. - > Twice.
      1. Not sure what you mean
    3. "[[Word of God Speak]]"
      1. Done

    Release history

    1. Allmusic says there was a three-track CD single in 2001 released by Word Distribution with catalog # 14862.here If this checks out, then more changes are needed to infobox (including image), Lead and elsewhere.
      1. That would be one of the many 'performance track' EPs that are released by Christian artists; they basically are just the song, paired with several other versions that are instrumental, bgvs only, played in other keys, etc. I don't count these because they are not official single releases (many are released for album cuts on iTunes), and there are so many of them that it would be hard to count. We could perhaps mention this in the 'Other versions' section, but I don't think it warrants a separate release date.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    • Thanks for the clarification. If its not official then don't put it in Other versions either.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    Charts and certifications

    1. Some mention of Year-end charting could be included as prose in Chart performance.
    2. U.S. not needed in front of Radio and Records or Billboard. (Its the default)
      1. Done
    3. Not sure about the sortable tables. After clicking the sort button, the sub-section is dropped to the bottom. Maybe you'll have to subdivide the first table? The Year-end one probably doesn't need to be sortable: there's only three entries.
      1. Done
    4. To reduce the [edit] clustering consider using '''Weekly charts''' instead of ===Weekly charts=== Note: this is entirely optional, some editors prefer the Level 3 headings.
      1. Done

    Awards

    1. Can be included as Accolades as a sub-section in Reception.
      1. Done
    2. Use GMA Dove Awards per Lead.
      1. Done
    3. I prefer to use single quote marks for an award category, e.g. 'Pop/Contemporary Recorded Song of the Year' to differentiate it from a song's title format.
      1. Done
    4. If the refs describe Millard's winning of 'Songwriter of the Year' in relation to this song then it should be mentioned here (&in the Lead) too.

    Popular culture

    1. Content should be included above.
    2. Was it used in any films/TV shows? I'm fairly certain the name was used for a compilation album (which included the song).
    • Note: re-check punctuation and placement of ref tabs throughout the article.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    Criterion 2[edit]

  3. Verifiable with no original research:
    (a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
    (b) all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines; and
    (c) it contains no original research.

    References I will be checking all the references and each comment below is under their number as they existed at this time. This order may change from current numbering as refs get moved, added or deleted. Preliminary comment: all refs including newspapers should have a publisher. Newspapers and other works are generally italicised but publishers are not. In line with the rest of the article, use mdy dates for date, archive date and retrieved date. Wikilink first appearance but de-link subsequent appearances in this section.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    Notes

    1. Use {{cite album-notes |title=Almost There |albumlink=Almost There |artist=[[MercyMe]] |year=2001 |notestitle= |url= |first= |last= |authorlink= |coauthors= |page= |pages= |format=CD liner |publisher=[[INO Records]] |publisherid=39972 |location= |ref= }} (see Template:Cite album-notes and modify as appropriate and remove non-used fields).
      1. Done, now ref no. 12.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:13, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

      • Comment - mdy? These refs all use dmy - I reformatted them that way to make them all identical.
    The article is written in American English and uses mdy e.g. chart week of October 11, 2003 Shouldn't the ref section use same date formatting?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

    Footnotes

    1. publisher=[[Fox News Channel|Fox News]] ([[News Corporation]]) Verifies a, part of b (year 1991 not shown), supports quote c, d not fully supported (played on top 40 radio in Dallas but not who or why).
    2. work=[[CCM Magazine]]|publisher=TodaysChristianMusic ([[Salem Communications]])|year=2004 a 1991 supported. b supported. c Wild-FM named, but other details not specified here.
    3. title=Radar Report: The Quality of MercyMe|work=Playback|publisher=[[American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers]] (ASCAP) a&b OK, c no support for Tony Russell or for the program's name.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. No on-line source? Can't verify claims/direct quotes. Is the video same as this at NME? I can't check it (another region thing). In any case, the cite video template should include additional information:
      1. Yep, it is.
      2. time field should have values per event (a, b, c, d, e) e.g. use something like time= <sup>''a''</sup> 1:35, <sup>''b''</sup> 1:25
        1. Done
      3. people field should have interviewees, producer/director e.g. people=Bart Millard, Jim Bryson (interviewees);
      4. location not required – United States is the default.
        1. Done
    2. Adjust title ''The Worship Project'' – MercyMe a, b OK.
      1. Done
    3. Similar title adjustment & replace hyphens with endashes. Also add year=2006 and replace later with in 2006 in Background section.
      1. Done
    4. Adjust title. a, b, c OK.
    5. Adjust title. Also publisher=Musicnotes, Inc. I don't know about music scales but this source gives vocal range as B3–A6. The website has five arrangements, some with different vocal ranges: why is the chosen one more correct than the others? In the main text, move ref tab to after punctuation.
      1. Honestly, no clue. Is it vital enough to keep that it cannot be removed?
      2. Keep the ones in the article but provide a note with details of the other vocal ranges – where they differ.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
    6. Adj as above. While there adj text nearby: range spanning from B > range spanning B
      1. Done

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:46, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. Delete work=NewReleaseTuesday.com and change publisher= NewReleaseTuesday.com (NRT Media) a, b OK.
      1. Done
    2. Change work to publisher. a, b, and e are OK. c (no time per track), d (no INO mentioned)
      1. Done
    3. How is Curb Records an independent source for charting information? The five Billboard charts can be reffed by this. The Radio and Records charts will need an independent reliable source.
      1. Well, how is it unreliable? All of its other chart information is consistent with the Billboard ones, and as I have no access to archives of the charts (which Billboard now publishes, but requires Billboard.biz membership to view), its the best I can do unless you know someone that can access those archives.
      2. Since Curb Records is MercyMe's record label they promote their artist and have a commercial/vested interest in any publication of their charting. They are not independent.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
      3. True, but what would they honestly stand to gain by embellishing stats and posting falsehoods?
    4. See above.
    5. Check author's name. I get Christa Farris. Add ([[Salem Communications]]) to publisher.
      1. Done
    6. Modify url=http://www.crosswalk.com/culture/music/i-can-only-imagine-impacts-mainstream-radio-1203206.html?ps=0 Program is named, but its producer is Todd Sheppard not Tony Russell as given in next sentence. While fixing this italicise the program name in main text. a, b, c, d OK.
      1. Done
    7. Wikilink Don Cusic. According to this source INO & Curb combined in 2005. However the context of the main text has the occurring in 2003.
      1. Well then, this is either a typo or just a bad source. I should probably remove, then.
    8. This ref confirms they're working together in 2003.
    9. Wikilink Fred Bronson. Delink 2nd & subs of Billboard & Prometheus Global Media.
      1. Done, working on delinking

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. Consider the use this for all of Billboard's refs at Weekly charts. In any case, delink as before.
    2. See above.
      1. Done
    3. Is the video at Billboard the same? (see link at [19] above) If it is, change the VEVO ref over to the Billboard one. (I can view this link and so might other regions otherwise excluded by VEVO).
      1. Its blocked by my browser, I'll have to check on a different computer.
    4. Delete work, use publisher=[[Crosswalk.com]] (Salem Communications) a, b, c OK.
      1. Done
    5. Adj title. Delete language (default value is English). Add (John DiBiase) to publisher line.
      1. Done
    6. Delete work, use publisher=[[Recording Industry Association of America]] (RIAA) In this article, you're only citing the single's platinum status so you can add date=April 14, 2010 You might add Note: Requires user to input artist, e.g. MercyMe. just in front of the </ref> part. a, b, c OK.
      1. Done
    7. , [26] & [27]:See [19] above.
      1. What is wrong with this title?
    8. Adj title.
      1. This as well.
    9. Adj title. See [23] above.
      1. Done
    10. Adj title.
      1. Done
    11. See [23],[28] above.
      1. Done
    12. Delete work. publisher=[[About.com]] ([[The New York Times Company]]) a, b, c OK.
      1. Done
    13. publisher to include (Salem Communications).
      1. Done
    14. Delinks.
      1. Done
    15. Change work to publisher and wikilink the group. Check date posted.
      1. Done
    16. Publisher needed.
    17. Done

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. Needs page number(s). Also covers info on [38] & [39]. Delinks.
      1. Done
    2. As above.
      1. Done
    3. As above.
      1. 'Done
    4. Supply a Note. Is it better to search for MercyMe or for Bart Millard as artist?
      1. Done
    5. Add (Salem Communication) to publisher.
      1. Neither here.
    6. Provide names (use curator and responsible NASA official), provide date (use Updated).
      1. Done

    Original research

    1. The entire Synopsis ¶ has no in-line citation. To reduce risk of WP:OR supply the Billboard video ref above at [19]: together with ref[22] they can be placed at the end of the whole ¶.
      1. Done

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

    Criterion 3[edit]

  4. Broad in its coverage:
    (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and
    (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

    External links

    1. If used as a ref, delete from this section.
      1. Done

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:52, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

    Missing information

    1. Other than Bart Millard and Jim Bryson (Robby Shaffer as drummer in a caption for a 2008 performance hardly counts) there's no indication of what involvement the other members of MercyMe provide for this single.
      1. Added to the 'composition' section, although the background notes how the band created the music to the song as well.
      2. Better if they're named, you should indicate that they're the band's members and their regular roles in the Background section.
      3. I have a concern regarding Graul. According to MercyMe website he joined in 2003. For the single's cover there are five members. If "I Can Only Imagine" was first issued in 1999 how can he be a co-composer? Even "Word of God Speak" was on Spoken For in 2002, so is he included in that song's writers? Track listing currently shows, Kipely [sic], MercyMe).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
        1. I am not quite sure. Perhaps he had known the band for a while, but didn't join until 2003? I'm not sure myself, but all the musicnotes documents list him as a composer.
        2. I'm not convinced by musicnotes. Consider, "I joined the band right in the middle when ‘I Can Only Imagine' went mainstream," said MercyMe guitarist Barry Graul. "It was a pretty busy and surreal time to be rushed into it all."here. To me, he's not involved in the writing or composition of the song and is only involved in its promotion. By the way check spelling of Kipley throughout the article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
        3. Well, the problem with that is Musicnotes publishes what is in written in the music 'books' - its sort of an iTunes for sheet music. If it is wrong, should we just disregard it in terms of writing credits, as the source is the official book for 'Almost There'? Perhaps they messed up putting it online or something. Keep in mind, the page itself of the document gives credit for words and music to Millard. Regardless, I switched to giving Millard full credit on music and lyrics. I believe I have the resolution to this problem. I have a physical copy of Almost There, and it credits Millard as the writer and composer. I don't want to discredit Musicnotes entirely (I believe the key and tempo notes are correct), but this does trump that source.
    2. Kipley is in the infobox as producer but not mentioned in main text.
      1. Credited in 'Composition' section
    3. Track listing currently does not show length of time per track nor each songs' writers.
      1. Could not find the actual track length in any of the sources, only the tracks involved. Will add the writers in just a bit.
      2. Why is this so difficult to find? I would have thought track length information would be available: did you try iTunes?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
        1. Of course I can find the track length info, I just don't have it in relation to the length on the physical single. If it is acceptable to use iTunes download info for the individual songs, I'll do it.
        2. Since it won a Platinum cert for digital downloads then the iTunes track lengths would be acceptable. Try here.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

    More to follow.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:57, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

    1. As mentioned earlier, Millard's win as 'Songwriter of the Year' is in relation to this track. In Awards and accolades you could add: Millard also won 'Songwriter of the Year'. suitably reffed.
    2. In Popular culture the additional sentence re: curator & NASA official goes as a note not in the main text. The sentence on it being chosen as a 'wake-up' call can then be moved to Awards and accolades after the sentence about Millard winning his award. Delete Popular culture section.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

      1. Done
    1. More awards? See hereshaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
    2. First Christian music genre single to achieve Platinum by digital downloads? See here.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:12, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
      1. Done

    Criterion 4[edit]

  5. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
    1. I'm generally impressed by the overall neutral tone of the expression and with further changes described above see no particular problems at this point.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

    Criterion 5[edit]

  6. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
    1. Stability is good, further changes due to recommendation above are expected.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

    Criterion 6[edit]

  7. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
    (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
    (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

    Captions

    1. Infobox photo: since we have so many versions possible, a caption (above Artist = ) indicating which cover this is found on, would help. e.g. | Caption ="I Can Only Imagine", 2003 CD single version. (if that's the correct one?)
      1. Good idea, I'll include that.
    2. Composition photo: MercyMe's lead singer-songwriter, Bart Millard (left) and drummer, Robby Shaffer, performing in February 2008.

    Permissions

    1. Video photo: is it needed? Can the image be described in words alone? Has permission (from copyright owners) for use on wikipedia been given?
      1. If suitable for wikipedia use, then adjust Caption e.g. Millard holding his father's photograph in the music video.
        1. The impact of the photo warrants its inclusion, as the emotional impact of the moment in the video can not be described by words. I've given the proper documentation on the file page. If this is not enough, I can be safe and remove it.

    Audio sample

    1. Although not necessary for GA, an audio sample of the single would assist in the aritcle's description. If interested read more at Music samples.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:49, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

      1. I'd love to do that, but I'm not sure if my parents would allow me to download that program. I'll check.

    First run-through is done[edit]

    I've had a first run-through and already many changes have been adopted. More remain. Also re-check some that may have been reverted (e.g. U.S. is back in Chart tables). I will allow a week for these further changes to be made before making my final decision.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 19:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

    I believe all changes are done. Toa Nidhiki05 21:26, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
    Further considerations:
    1. Lead now has too many 2001. It still doesn't show Millard's songwriting win.
    Done
    1. Any idea of when/what Kipley had worked with them previously? Or any other notable group(s) he produced before them?
    Well, he produced their album Almost There. According to credits on Allmusic, he produced an album by Rebecca St. James, Lincoln Brewster, and Passion, so I'll suppose I'll note those.
    1. Combine ¶¶ in Awards and accolades.
    Done
    1. Re-check multiple wikilinks in main text (from Background to end of Other versions) e.g. Billboard Hot 100. There maybe others.
    Done
    1. Re-check all the refs. Some don't complete the publisher and some terms are wikilinked more than once in this section.
    I have corrected all double links and I believe the publisher credits are correct.

    shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:39, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

    • After all the recent effort, I believe the article is now up to the standard required. It passed!shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

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