Talk:Indonesia/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

About Islam in Indonesia

the demographics section states: "Importantly, all Indonesians are required to choose an approved religion. As a result, many Indonesian "Muslims," especially, are actually nonpracticing Muslims of the "I was raised Muslim" variety, animists (a fact that the government strenuously denies), or entirely secular." I have never visited Indonesia, but as an Arab (Tunisian)living in Japan, I have noticed that all Indonesians muslims I know are much better practionners of Islam than Arabs and Berbers(or at least north africans). All Indonesian muslims I know pary five times a day, respect the hallal meat rules, do not drink alcohol under any circumstances and all women were the headscarf. This is not the case in North Africa were Islam has been around a much longer time, and where many people drink alcohol and and a minority of women wear the headscarf. So the above statment "....many Indonesian "Muslims," especially, are actually nonpracticing Muslims of the "I was raised Muslim" variety..." strikes me as very strange. Can someone inlighten me?

There are several issues at work here. One is the pre-Dutch colonial legacy of the feudal kingdoms of Indonesia, which were based in part on the Hindu caste system. When Muslim Arabs and Indians set up trading posts for the lucrative spice trade, the feudal aristocracy would often convert to Islam in order to get in better with the Muslim traders. Whether or not such conversion on the part of these aristocrats was heartfelt or not, the caste system to a certain degree demanded that the lower castes follow the aristocratic caste's lead and became nominal Muslims, and underwent Islamic rituals (profession of faith, etc.). In areas where the conversion was not "deep" however, many Indonesians were nominal Muslims while also observing old Hindu (and even older animist) rituals. The contradiction between saying the Shahada, while making a sacrifice to an idol during the harvest, was not very apparent.

This is not to say, however, that there were not pockets of particularly profound and deep Muslims in Indonesia. Aceh, the northern tip of Sumatra, is especially known for its orthodox and devout practice of Islam (indeed, partly why the separatist movement there wanted sharia law). The Moluccas are another such case, and this is partly why Muslims have resent the Christians among them.

I would say that the type and kind of faith and devotion and practice of Islam traditionally depends on one's location within Indonesia. Aceh and the Moluccas are traditionally fervent, in my opinion, because these were the areas where Arab and Indian Muslims settled down, set up trading posts, and because they are ports traditionally associated with the ships that went to Arabia and India both for purposes of trade as well as the hajj pilgrimage.

A more modern consideration in Indonesia has been that since the end of the Suhartoist Golkar Party's rule over the country, the Islamic fraternal groups have had a much greater say in the country's political scene. It has lead, in recent years, to some hardening of Muslim attitudes toward the sanctity of Islam and on the Islamic character of the Indonesian state (though attempts to approve even limited sharia law measures in the Constitution, which would apply to those whose ID cards indicate them as Muslim, have been rebuffed). Nevertheless, cultural expressions of Islamic-ness are more abundant than ever before which probably accounts for your encounter with teetotaling Muslims in headscarves.

Also, when comparing Indonesians to Arabs, it's important that it not be forgotten that European trade and colonialism had a deep impact on the Maghreb (North Africa) and Levant. Tunisia, Morocco, and Lebanon have quite a reputation among other Arab nations for excess -- I'd say, because of the legacy of French libertinism. --Daniel 06:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

My experience, (20 years ago, but still relevant) from living in the houses of 5 moslem families in Central Java over a twelve month period, was that while none drank alcohol or consumed pork and all participated to some extent in Ramadan, only one family prayed five times during the day. Certainly, they were all affluent and fairly westernised, but I would say that they were fairly typical of the middle classes. --Peacenik 02:46, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

With reference to Daniel's comments about Maluku, the 'fervent' moslems are generally from north Maluku (the sultanates of Ternate and Tidore), while South Maluku (Ambon, Banda) is more dominantly Christian, although both areas of the Maluku are actually very mixed in terms of the number of adherents of each religion, and this has been, as far as I'm aware, the situation for many centuries. The recent rise in tension between the religions in the area is largely due to moslem transmigration from Western Indonesia - mainly Java and Sumatera. The far south of Maluku, as well as the island of Seram, still have quite strong animist traditions.--Sepa 22:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You say you've never been to Indonesia. So who are the Indonesians you met? If you met them in Arabia or thereabouts, th4ere's the possibility that they travelled there for religious reasons, which of course would make them the more devout type. Or maybe they figured they'd better abide to the rules while in Arabia. DirkvdM 07:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Moslem lifestyle in indonesia is moderate than the other moslem country ( nation with most moslem population ) such as saudi arabia. for example women in indonesia can have the driving license while not in saudi arabia. i'm a moslem in indonesia.

Alcohol beverage and pork meat is hard to find in every market in Indonesia so most Indonesian (including non-muslim) not consume it. In a very rare case alcohol drinker is usually assosciated with outlaw or even drug user! But not about five time pray there is a significant number of people who didn't take this. Hijab or jilbab user is minority, but increasing in number.Aditthegrat 09:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I lived in the country for seven years. The person who wrote the section most likely visited Central Java, where Islam is indeed more of a nominal thing in many areas. There are also areas like Madura where Islam is practiced in very traditional ways. Several large Islamic universites exist throughout the nation.

what is the indonesian of good evening

Selamat malam --*drew 06:15, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Depending on context it could also be selamat sore. Sore tends to describe mid afternoon to early evening. --Peacenik 23:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Neither "selamat malam" nor "selamat sore" has the connotation of "good night" in English, which is used usually only in parting. Both can be used as a greeting or in parting. Julius.kusuma 16:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps selamat tidur would be closer in usage, if not in literal meaning. --Peacenik 03:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The literal meaning of 'selamat tidur' being 'sleep well', or, more literally, 'sleep greetings'. DirkvdM 07:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Another Indonesian phrase of 'good evening' is selamat petang. For parting, one can also say sampai jumpa ('see you'). *drew 08:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Even though petang and sore have the same meaning, selamat petang is seldomly used in Indonesia. It is more commonly used in Malaysia and Brunei. While selamat sore is more common in Indonesia rather than selamat petang.

Selamat petang is used almost exclusively on the 6pm news broadcasts.

Petang is commonly assossiated with the time during sunset, around 6pm or something....

can someone confirm/add that arabic is not spoken?

Hi, I see no mention of the people of Indonesia speaking Arabic. Since most Muslims do speak Arabic, and Indonesia has hundreds of millions of Muslims, this strikes me as noteworthy. ...but I'm no Indonesia expert. Can someone else add this to the article or correct me? Thanks. Gronky 17:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, first of all, the Arabic that is spoken/recited in the Quran and the living everyday Arabic are quite different - if I recall correctly, my Palestinian friend said the difference is between the English of King James and modern American English. Indonesian Muslims may overwhelmingly know the former, but not the latter. I am sure there are Indonesians who speak modern Arabic (due to the fact that so many end up doing migrant work in richer Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, etc.), but not to the point where it becomes their first language when they come back to Indonesia. --Daniel 18:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to read between the lines a bit for the answer to my question, but you seem to concur that the ability to speak or read Arabic (in any of it's forms) is not widespread in Indonesia. I'll add this information to the article (and I'll try to also mention your information about some Indonesians learning Arabic for, or due to, working in richer arab states). I'll wait a little while before adding this, just in case someone else wants to clarify or add anything (or in case someone with more Indonesia knowledge wants to add this themself). Gronky 20:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Many Indonesian Muslims did take Qur'an reading lessons (called "Pengajian" in Indonesian) when they are younger, but I don't know the percentage, and to what level of proficiency. However, I can confirm that very few Indonesians speak Arabic, Quran-ic or modern. Many Arabic expressions have found its way into spoken Indonesian, and everybody knows what "Assala mualaikum" and "Insya Allah" mean. But this is neither sufficient or indicative to saying that most people can hold a conversation in Arabic. So I would estimate that at best, some Indonesians can *read* the Quran realiably. Unfortunately I cannot give any reasonable estimate of the percentages. Indeed, this is an important fact that is often overlooked. I guess one can compare this to the proficiency of old Latin in Europe in the old days. Sure, the priests and ruling and intellectual elites have some command of it, and it is considered to be "good education", but most people have little to no command of latin, despite perhaps having been forced to learn it as a child ;-). Perhaps if somebody can provide actual numbers this should be mentioned in Islam in Indonesia. Disclaimer: I grew up in Indonesia, but I am not Muslim and I have not lived there for a long, long time, hence the above is at best my personal, and perhaps slightly biased, estimate. Julius.kusuma 21:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

"Most Muslims speak Arabic" only in the Middle East, which is a long way from Indonesia. Just as Hebrew and Greek - original Christian Biblical languages - aren't spoken by the vast majority of Christians, it shouldn't be surprising that many, many Muslims, especially Muslims who aren't Arabs, don't speak Arabic. It's a fair suggestion, but I don't think it's noteworthy that Arabic is not much spoken in Indonesia. CDC (talk) 20:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Most Indonesian Muslim are taught to read Qur'an, so IMHO most of them could only read arabic script(as I am).Aditthegrat 09:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Depend on how you define arabic speaking. Although most of us (Indonesian) cannot speak arabic, our language, Bahasa Indonesia was developed from Melayu or Malay and the latter was heavily influenced by Arabic. Hence, we can understand some arabic words although we cannot understand the sentence. Kunderemp 03:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Source for population figure?

Is there a source for the population figure? Singkong2005 03:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The source is from this article in Wikipedia, according to July 2005 estimate figure by CIA World Factbook. *drew 04:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It is hugely questionable that the population can be 206 million in 2000, and then 240 million in 2005, implying over 3% annual growth. Since the 206 million is a census figure, I presume the actual population of Indonesia to be closer to 225 million, even assuming an undercount in the Census 2000. You have to take into account East Timor's seccession and the Dec 2004 tsunami and its after effects. I think CIA World Factbook is overestimating Indonesia's population, and generally not too reliable source of population estimates, certainly not better than the UN population bureau, but seems to be the most cited source on the net.

Agreed. But lot of Indonesian have at least three children. It still common in nowadays. The population in East Timor was very small compare to Indonesia. The Dec2004 Tsunami, althought it have great effect to Aceh, the population number affected by the Tsunami was very small compare to Indonesia. And most of the population was in Java Island. Kunderemp 03:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Indonesian Losses in WW2

Can anyone provide authoritative information on Indonesian civilian losses in WW2 1941-45?--Berndd11222 23:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Indonesia was not part of war of WW2. It was an invasion by Japan and the Dutch surrendered fastly. There were civillian loses from Indonesian, but it wasn't WW2. Instead, it was forced labour (Romusha) such as what happened in Gua Jepang, West Sumatra. There were sparse war in Japanese Era but they're not part of WW2. Instead, they were war against Japanese to freed Indonesian (and no relation with Dutch or any European war). Even if that what you think, we didn't have a good record of population at the time, unlike Europe. Kunderemp 03:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Indos in Indonesia

Somebody recently added the following:

The formerly large, influential Eurasian community (locally known as Indos) has largely left the country for the Netherlands, California and Australia, although a few still remain in Indonesia and are highly esteemed models and soap opera stars.

This sentence needs a re-work. I don't think that it is true at all today that the Indos are influential beyond what the size of their population may suggest. In the colonial times, many worked as intermediaries, but as far as I know most moved in the 1950s when the Dutch companies/plantations were nationalized. The last sentence is also somewhat misleading. It's not as if a large percentage of the Indos are models and soap opera stars. Can somebody confirm this, please? Julius.kusuma 13:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The term "Indos" is considered offensive by some Indonesians.

You are correct, Julius. Most of the "Eurasian" moved after 1950. They know Indonesia because Indonesian-Dutch War 1945-1949 such as Princen who was former member of KNIL Kunderemp 02:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

denial on suhartos crimes against the indonesian people

Civil War

For more details on this topic, see Indonesian Civil War

By late 1965, the Indonesian Army had fragmented into left-wing and right-wing camps.

The former were allied with the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI), which also controlled many of the mass civic and cultural organizations that Sukarno had established to mobilize support for his regime.

(is this a fact? sounds strange compared to other sources )

The PKI was in control of the "Fifth Column", an armed organization which members were recruited from farmers and laborers. The presidential guard was heavily persecuted after Suharto's KOSTRAD troops took control of Jakarta. Moreover, the commander of the Indonesian air force at the time was later imprisoned or executed as an alleged member of the alleged communist plot. Which other sources are you referring to? Regardless, these show that the Indonesian armed forces at the time was split into various political cliques which opposed each other. All of these are mentioned in most textbooks of Indonesian history. Julius.kusuma 15:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

The latter were courted from abroad by the United States, which trained a number of Army officers and which formed a number of think-tanks. After gaining Sukarno's acquiescence, the PKI began to arm groups of peasants in order to combat the growing power of right-wing military commands in the countryside. Army leaders objected to this campaign.

On September 30, 1965 six senior generals within the military and several other officers were murdered by palace guards, alleged to be loyal to the PKI. The guards claimed they were attempting to stop an attempt by the generals to assassinate President Sukarno. After panic spread throughout Indonesia about a communist coup attempt, Major General Suharto, the commander of the Army Strategic Reserve (Kostrad), organized an offensive

--(offensive? this "offensive" was not a coup? )

Whether it is an "offensive" or a "coup d'etat" is still a debated position inside and outside Indonesia even today. I don't think labeling it an "offensive" is misleading, however. Suharto's ride to power took a long time to complete, and this one particular event did not singularly lead to his eventual takeover. Julius.kusuma 15:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

under the justification of crushing this alleged rebellion. The army is believed killed tens of thousands of alleged communists in rural areas. The number of those murdered by 1966 was at least 500,000. The violence was especially brutal in Java and Bali.

Seeing the nationalist Sukarno as a threat to their interests, the West was keen to exploit the situation to its advantage.

--( "the west"? UK and US were the only ones at the central planning meetings before and after)

If this is true, then please provide some sort of reference and make the correction. Julius.kusuma 15:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Suharto's portrayal of events as 'communist carnage' was the official version promoted in the West.

--( and it was not? the entire article presupposes that this is correct and now you provide a disclaimer and a qualifier? if the above was true, then why? and why did you not provide the reasons for this qualifier? in the rest and beginning of the article were the alleged communist charges are raised?

Who's "you" whom are you addressing here? This is an open-source online dictionary, and as you can see from the history page for this article, many people have contributed to its present state. Are you asking whether the portrayal of the events as a 'communist carnage' was true or not? It was, and it is easy to look up news clippings from that era. In fact, this is/was the official version taught in Indonesia. Julius.kusuma 15:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Christopher Koch's popular novel The Year of Living Dangerously later helped cement this view. Yet a large body of evidence has since emerged that the killings were encouraged by the US and UK governments.

According to a CIA memo, Prime Minister Harold Macmillan and President John F. Kennedy had agreed to "liquidate President Sukarno, depending on the situation and available opportunities". In 1990 the American journalist Kathy Kadane revealed the extent of the secret American support of some of the massacres of 1965-66 that allowed Suharto to seize the Presidency. She interviewed many former US officials and CIA members, who spoke of compiled lists of PKI operatives, which the Americans ticked off as the victims were killed or captured. They worked closely with the British who were keen to protect their interests in Malaysia. Sir Andrew Gilchrist cabled the Foreign Office in London saying: "…a little shooting in Indonesia would be an essential preliminary to effective change". The PKI had won some popular support from the poor, it was this popularity, rather than any armed insurgency that alarmed the American government. Like Vietnam in the North, Indonesia might 'go communist'.

CIA was lying! They just used the doom of Sukarno as their campaign for Vietnam War. They didn't have any contribution to the fall of Sukarno.

If you're a communist supporter, you have to remember this fact

• why Tan Malaka regreted the Indonesia Communist Party 1926
• why Mohammad Hatta and Sutan Sjahrir left Perhimpunan Indonesia after the communist influence in the organization
• what's happened in Madiun 1948?
• what do most of Indonesia think about communist?

Read Soe Hok Gie's writing about his struggle. He was anti-communist but he was fair. He against the Orde Baru injustice to Communist Party-member. And read his article about Bali Massacre and you'll find the one who did the massacre was the Communist Party itself in order to clean his name out of "communist".

Read his article about his journey to America and how he suprised to be accused as helping CIA by thrown Sukarno out of his throne. Because CIA made a claim and as far as he know, there was no such a thing as "CIA contribution". It was he, as one of student, who ask help from millitary, not CIA.

Find any testimonial from anyone who was not communist, who live in East Java in 1960s (my mother and my father was one of them). You'll find it was people who kill the communist, not millitary. It was caused by their hatred to the arrogance of Indonesia Communist Party. Attributing massacre to Orde Baru only is insulting this people, this "setan desa", this "kyai" which propagate "opiate of the mass".

You may believe conspiracy theory how Suharto rose to his throne (i.e Supersemar conspiracy, G-30-S conspiracy), but you only ridicule yourself if you think Indonesia Communist Party was doomed because some few millitary conspiracy. Kunderemp 03:26, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Throughout the 1965-66 period, President Sukarno attempted to restore his political position and shift the country back to its pre-October 1965 position. Although he remained president, in March 1966, Sukarno had to transfer key political and military powers to General Suharto,

--( "had to" ... isn't "was forced to" the term one usually would employ on coup d'etats? why rosy up the picture in any way such as this??

Because whether it is a "transfer of power" or a "coup d'etat" is still a debated position inside and outside Indonesia even today. Julius.kusuma 15:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

who by that time had become head of the armed forces. In March 1967, the Provisional People's Consultative Assembly (MPRS) named General Suharto acting president

-- realy interesting: who were in that assembly and how were they elected???

This is covered in most textbooks of Indonesian history, but since I do not recall the exact composition I can't answer this directly. Julius.kusuma 15:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

• • First of all, welcome to Wikipedia! I hope that you will stay and contribute to the Wikipedia efforts. Second of all, Wikipedia is an open-source *dictionary*, and therefore the articles should be written in the style of a dictionary, and from a neutral point of view. If you believe that certain facts are omitted, then you are welcome to add them to the articles, but you should do so with proper citation. In my view, articles such as Suharto, Sukarno and other related, political articles should use careful wording to distinguish between proven fact, accepted popular belief, and conjectures. So if you feel strongly about the topics of any of these articles, please stay and contribute, but please also do so in a way that benefits the audience. If you do plan to stay around, please consider registering as a user. Thanks. Julius.kusuma 15:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Corby

Why is Corby not mentioned anywhere in this article? Highly POV to omit her reference.

Who is Corby? Julius.kusuma 13:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Why is Schapelle Corby not mentioned anywhere in this article? Because she's not Indonesian, she's not of any importance to Indonesia, and even in her own country she's only a pseudo-celebrity T&A show (on par with Paris Hilton for Americans).

It's not NPOV to insert text on her case; it's just more of the same old Australian-biased (and racist) POV. --Daniel 15:17, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Indonesia has a pretty questionable judicial system. You present omission of that, both here and ont he politics page, is highly POV. Corby is much of why the rest of the world knows about it. I respect that you may have had people adding whole sections on her in the past, and that is biased, but she does need to be mentioned here. Supression of information, as your doing in this case, is almost always POV. Fine, keep it to a minimum, point them at the Corby page with one off hand comment in a short section on the judicial system, but to have not even one link to the Corby page is POV. JeffBurdges 21:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I would bet you a mint and say that most of the world neither know of nor care about Schapelle Corby; and even if most people in the world knew Indonesia through the Corby case (which they don't - most people in the world know Indonesia because of the bombings and tsunami these days) that says not one thing about why it should be included in a page attempting to encapsulate the information on one of the world's largest and most populous nations - other than that we should pander to the worst in people.

Or in other words: Just because most people in the world know Australia from the Mad Max series of films does not mean that anyone should put extensive information about the character, the films, or Mel Gibson into the Australia article.

As for the questionable Indonesian judicial system, the system is indeed questionable, but there are vastly better cases of that with which to indict the system. That you overlook the sheer magnitude of the corruption and human rights abuses under Suharto (which is clearly brought up in Indonesia, History of Indonesia and other articles) shows your own hypocrisy: apparently, the killing of 500,000 to 1 million Indonesians doesn't count as a knock against Indonesia's judicial system as much as some pretty white Australian going to jail.

At any rate, you seem to be nothing but a whining troll who expects others to do your editing for you. Nobody here is "suppressing information" other than you yourself, since you've never even bothered writing in your own suggestions. --Daniel 01:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Given the flaws in our own judicial and legal systems, and our own appalling human rights record, I think it inappropriate for Australians to be pontificating on the legal systems of our neighbours. Despite appearances, Indonesia has made tremendous progress recently, something the Australian media have omitted (POV anyone?)

Corby would be as relevant on this page as illegal/detained Indonesian fishermen would be on the Australian page. I'm sure there is a wikipage for 'our Schapelle' already.Theinnerexits 10:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a hilarious suggestion - Corby has no importance to Indonesia. It may be significant though to Australia's perception of Indonesia, as is say Paul Hogan is to American's perseption of Australia. I am an Australian, and Australia's belief in Schapelle Corby was always exagerated. Those polls that showed her support at 90% of Australia's populaton were conducted in the crappy tabloid press published for and read and believed by morons (ie. crappy newspapers and sensationalist TV shows). Even at the height of credibility (it has now seriously dropped) respectable polls put it only as high as 50%. I like the suggestion above that although Indonesia's judicial system has problems (but improving) Corby's case is a poor example of this. The fact is, her chances of being let off in Australia on a similar charge with similar evidence would have been only marginally better. The point of all this is that Wikipedia Indonesia is just FINE without mention of her. Merbabu 12:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

History

The wiki says,The arrival of Arab traders from Gujarat, India, later brought Islam. I think this needs to be rephrased. Arabs traded with Gujarat, Kochin and Indonesia for spices. In fact, they brought Islam to all three places along with them (Gujarat was also conquered by Arab/Persian/Turk/Mongol). So the Arab did come to Indonesia, but not from Gujarat. It was just a stopover for them.

Chirags 18:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the specifics about Gujarat - how do things look now? Another well-phrased sentence about the coming of Islam might be good here; it's a pretty important part of Indonesian history. CDC (talk) 01:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't! There are controversies how Islam came to Indonesia. Gujarat was still a possibility since Islam come to Indonesia using sufism which was highly unlikely did by Arab. Hence, the supporter of this theory prefer Gujarat due a lot of influence of Hinduism, Persians, and Sufism Kunderemp 03:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I lived in Indonesia for 7 years. People often spoke of the "Wali Songo" or "Five Prophets" who brought Islam (to the northern coast of Java specifically, and to the nation more generally). Perhaps it's worth looking for info on that.

Songo in Javanese means "Nine". "Wali Songo" means "Nine Wali". I can't find the correct English word to translate "Wali" but surely it is not "Prophet" which is "Nabi" in our language. Wali Songo only brought Islam to Javanese, not Indonesia. Although in some story they were representations of "Shariah", some stories of their private live represent Sufism influence.Kunderemp 02:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Why does Indonesia have such a high number of population?

I am taking an Asian study about China. We were talking about the history of how the population of China grew so fast. There were several reason of why that could happen. I am wondering why Indonesia has such a high number of population? As long as I could remember, I have never been told what the reasons are. If someone know what the reasons are, please tell me. Thanks a lot.

simple. Because in one family, at least there are three children. My fathers was the second of nine. My mother was the first of three. While I only have one sister, most of my friends have two or three sister or brothers. In the past, having nine or even fourteen children was common phenomenon. And althought there were two-child-policies from government, the government cannot enforce the policy to Indonesian. The policies is just a recommendation and mostly violated by Indonesian. Kunderemp 02:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

And the reason why they have so many children was because many Indonesian lives from agriculture, and the more children they got, the more help on the field there is. And there's this belief that says more children means more luck

I dont think those reasons mentioned above suffice the question. I'm from the Philippines, and in the past, Filipino families are huge (up to 14 children).Even today, a family of 5-9 members are still common. So why that big? According to Wikipedia, The whole island of Mindanao (where I came from) has a total area of 128,110 km², population (2007) is 21.5 million, having a density of 168.4 people per square km. Compare that to the province of East Java alone, having an area of a mere 47,922 km² but has a staggering 37 million inhabitants in 2005. Density is 787 people/km², 4.67 X than that of Mindanao. I have Indonesian friends and they tell me that today most Indonesian families have only 3 children.

Indonesia Freedom was not a gift from Japan

"in July 1942, Sukarno arrived in Jakarta. Sukarno and his colleagues collaborated with the Japanese occupiers. In 1945, with the war drawing to a close, Sukarno was made aware of an opportunity to declare independence. In response to lobbying, Japan agreed to allow Sukarno to establish a committee to plan for independence. Sukarno and Mohammad Hatta declared independence on 17 August."

These sentences is misleading. People will think, the Japan gave freedom to Indonesia, which they didn't. That was the Allies thinking which made Hatta and Sjahrir wrote Maklumat no. X to formed political parties to prove Indonesia was not formed by Japan, instead it declared by itself and ready to proceed as democratic country.

It was correct, Japan allow Sukarno, Hatta, and friends (Indonesia was not belong to Sukarno only!!!) to establish a committee to plan for Indonesia Independence. However, some of Indonesian felt discomfort and urged Sukarno to renamed the commitee (from BPUPKI to PPKI). And when Japan lose the war, they didn't immediately free Indonesia. Instead, they were waiting for the coming of Allies (British, Dutch) to give Indonesia back to Netherland. Sjahrir and the youngster (remember Rengasdengklok kidnapping?) forced Sukarno and Hatta declared the Independence immediately which eventually happened in August 17. Kunderemp 04:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I have changed them to "However, Sukarno and Mohammad Hatta declared independence unilaterally on 17 August soon after Japanese lose the war." Kunderemp 04:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Provinces of Indonesia

Most of western encyclopedia currently regard that Indonesia has 2 special territories and 1 special capital region. What abot Papua? In fact, Papua is formally just called province, but it has special status than other provinces. So I change the sentence into: Currently, Indonesia has 33 provinces (of those, 3 are have special status and 1 special capital region). BTW, Aceh hasn't been called daerah istimewa anymore. wic2020^talk 06:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

"Indonesian" not "Bahasa Indonesia"

This is an English-language article, thus the official language of Indonesia should be referred to by its English name, ie "Indonesian". I have removed the references to "Bahasa Indonesia" being the national language (although i have noted in the article that this is indeed the language's name in Indonesian). THe Engish-language wikipedia articles on Germany does not refer to the national language as "Deutsch" rather it uses he English, "German". Same goes for articles on France, Denmark, Spain, etc. (the word "bahasa" actually means language - add the Indonesian name of a country/region after it and you have that language's name. Ie, Bahasa Jerman is German, Bahasa Inggris is English, Bahasa Indonesia is Indonesian, Bahasa Bali is Balinese, Bahasa Jepang is Japanese, and so on) --Merbabu 08:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

"Restoration" of Democracy

"Democracy was restored following the revolution of 1998."

Is "restored" the most accurate word to use? Was there any free nationwide election in Indonesia prior to 1998? If not, would "restored" still be the standard term?

Michael 06:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think so. There were free nationwide elections in Indonesia prior to 1998. We were free to choose which party we like (unless you're Government official) however there were only three party was allowed to be in election. After 1998, every party can join election. (note, in 1955, we also have free nationwide election).Kunderemp 02:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Indonesians are required to declare themselves as one of these official religions"

This is a quote from the currant article. My question is: what are these official religions?--Greasysteve13 08:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Islam, Protestant (Kristen in Indonesian), Catholicism (Katolik), Buddhism and Hinduism. Yes, protestant and catholic are considered separate religions - at least officially, and not just separate denominations. The joke is that Indonesian has freedom of religion as long as your choice is on that list. Ie, no Judaism or atheism or animist. Although of course animism is still practised to some extent and is often quite happily mixed up with the other religions. Also, it should be noted that Indonesia has its own spin on the religions - usually more relaxed (but still very important). Ie, most Muslims don't worship like those in the MIddle East particularly those from rural areas - those in the cities tend to be more conventional. And the majority of Hindus are in Bali and is practised differently to say on the Indian subcontinent. --Merbabu 09:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing this up for me.--Greasysteve13 03:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you know that there is nonetheless a functioning synagogue in Surabaya? I've been there and met the rabbi.

Yes I knew it. There is a mention of it on Surabaya. Meursault2004 10:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the worshippers there are officially Hindus! Davidelit 12:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hindus? I thought they are officially Christians. Some have even converted to Islam. Meursault2004 14:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Which has left followers of Kejawen (like subud, sumarah) groups in a very interesting position :)

Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive

Not on Indonesia but related, History of Southeast Asia is currently a nominee for Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive. Please support the nominee by voting for it! __earth ^(Talk) 03:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

Does anyone else find the uses of the word "nation" at times repetitive in the following paragraph: "Indonesia, officially the Republic of Indonesia (Indonesian: Republik Indonesia), is a nation of islands consisting of more than 18,000 islands located in the South East Asian Archipelago. It is the world's largest archipelagic nation. It is bordered by the nations of Papua New Guinea, East Timor, Singapore, Australia and Malaysia. Indonesia (from Greek: indus = India nesos = islands) is home to more than 200 million people, and thus is the most populous Muslim-majority nation in the world and the fourth most populous overall." The word nation is used in four consecutive sentences. Also, the "a nation of islands consisting of more than 18,000 islands" part doesn't really roll off of the tounge well, in particular. I suppose it is written that way because of the wikilink to the "Island nation" article, but it should probably be changed to simply "a nation of islands." Anyone agree? Blinutne 15:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Here here Danlibbo 00:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:OWN on this article

I see User:AdaCiccone is trying to control and to hinder any improvement in this article through a lot / tens of reverts (article history), by doing so he is committing WP:OWN that is not encouraged in building this Wikipedia. (NouVa (talk) 01:46, 24 November 2020 (UTC))

"The information needs to be updated". For the record NouVa, I don't disagree with the fact that information needs to be updated, but here's what I think.

Country articles are necessarily a summary. I have seen over the years, many editors here add / update what they consider "improvement", but what I actually think ruins the article's already existing tone, brief summary, conciseness and comprehensiveness. Since 2017, I've been editing this article based on the 2008 Featured Article version and the 2017 Featured Article review, where I think any information should be kept as brief and comprehensive as possible. By reverting your edit yesterday, I am simply defending this established structure. It is sad seeing a lot of editors ignoring the existence of numerous Indonesia's sub articles, on which I think that any overly detailed information should be put.

When you updated (and added contents) on that paragraph, I'm afraid that you do not consider the conciseness and the comprehensiveness of the whole "History" section. In addition, you are committing WP:RECENT by going into recent details about the Joko Widodo presidency, which, I think is better if put here: Post-Suharto era in Indonesia, because that article primarily focuses on Indonesia's post-1998 history.

TL;DR version: Not literally every new information should be put on the country's main article. There are reasons why Indonesia's sub articles exist.

AdaCiccone (talk) 03:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Of course that "Not literally every new information should be put on the country's main article" but when you see the latest information on a country is talking about 2014 event, while today is 2020, so it needs to be renewed.
Also, rephrasing a referenced content addition is better than reverting the whole information because, at some point, it can be useful for the readers. (NouVa (talk) 06:52, 29 November 2020 (UTC))

Much of the new information (protests that, by the looks, have effectively zero long-term impact) does not belong on the top article, and frankly I don't think the old does either. The old is about how Jokowi was "the first president outside the elite" - does the article on the US mention a comparable president? This is effectively promotional. Juxlos (talk) 07:22, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

On that matter, a History of Indonesia (1998–present) article would probably be useful. Juxlos (talk) 07:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Post-Suharto era in Indonesia fills that function. CMD (talk) 07:47, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean brutal protests have "zero long-term impact"? in fact, the protests were informed globally across mainstream news channels and received much international attention about the events. Moreover, the recent news is necessary for better content. Wikipedia belongs to any contributive users, not owned personally. The edit is not vandalism, and more preferable to make an edit that retains at least some elements for improvement instead of obstructing it. Please consider WP:ONLYREVERT (NouVa (talk) 07:54, 29 November 2020 (UTC))

This article is about Indonesia as a whole. There are plenty of events between 1998 and today that has had more impact - the Maluku sectarian conflict permanently shifted the demographics and mindset over the region, the local elections of 2005 marked a transition to regional autonomy, the December 2016 Jakarta protests marked a rise in political Islamism, the 2019 Papua protests is still basically ongoing and practically revitalized the Papuan independence movement, the Bali bombings resulted in a much strengthened security force. The only reason the current "brutal protests" have relevance is because they're about a year old - come 2023, they will not be of much relevance to the reader. The "Modern era" section has to cover the entirety of 1966 - 2020. Including protests that result in... no changes (no laws revoked, no elections overturned, no concessions given, no major civil unrest started) is a clear case of WP:RECENTISM. Just because nobody owns the article, doesn't mean that your edits must be an improvement. Juxlos (talk) 10:52, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Papua protests of independent movement is slightly covered in picture Indonesia#Issues section, Bali bombings was implied partly on Terrorism in Indonesia link in Indonesia#Modern_era while Maluku sectarian conflict and December 2016 Jakarta protests can be included in Religion section.

You said "There are plenty of events between 1998 and today that has had more impact...", Logically, they should have been included in this article. Talking about major protests that destabilizing the country, the protesters came to oppose "significance changes" to weaken corruption eradication efforts (in KPK bill protests resulted in deaths of civilians) and successfully terminate criminal code revision, and changes which deteriorating labor rights of millions of Indonesian workers (related to Job Creation Law protests attended by thousands of labors, students, amid a global pandemic) is this common issue could happen everyday? that's very rare phenomenon. When the brutal protests happened with a number of people injured [1], even killed [2] and thousands were arrested [3] as form of blatant human rights violation and the events reported as breaking news on various mainstream news outlets worldwide (WP:SIGCOV), Are those events not notable? As comparison, just imagine when Western media covering chaotic and massive protests in various countries on Arab Spring, a number of leaders of those countries were forcefully to step down or even the events turn into 'civil wars' killing thousands of innocents. (NouVa (talk) 03:28, 30 November 2020 (UTC))

If you don't mind, I just indented your comment. :D

Yes, the events you described above are indeed notable, but that's not what I'm arguing here. Just because an event is notable does not mean it automatically warrants a place on the main article. This, especially if left un-monitored, would set a bad precedent. Every editor is going to think that it is okay to add anything 'notable.' It would be like just throwing stuff on the main with little regard for a neat structure in paragraphs, proper weight etc. What I'm arguing here is two things: (1) Show some care for the sub-articles. Some are neglected and have much room for improvement. (2) The need for minimal disruption to the main's already established tone and neat structure (which can be maintained by having more attention to, yes, the subs). The tendency of some editors here who always put everything on the main clearly does not help, in the case of both points of my argument.

You can see that the entire 'History" section only has nine paragraphs. It does not talk at length about the specifics because the subs have already done it. I don't understand why do you feel the need to put such detailed info on the main while the subs can obviously do the job. The importance of the information you submitted does not diminish when it is put on a sub. AdaCiccone (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the subarticles, History of Indonesia currently does not cover the 2020 protests, and Post-Suharto era in Indonesia gives it one sentence. It would be easier to discuss how to balance content on this article if there was more information on these subarticles (presumably more in the Post-Suharto article than the overall article) which would help visualise how it looks next to other events and details that do or do not appear on this page. CMD (talk) 08:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

(Arbitrary break)

Just for comparison:

• One of the biggest mass killings in the 20th century:
  

The army, led by Major General Suharto, countered by instigating a violent anti-communist purge that killed between 500,000 and one million people. – 22 words

• Deomstrations and riots during the second Jokowi period (proposed text):
  

Widodo was re-elected in 2019 for a second five-year term, followed by May brutal crackdown that killed at least 8 protesters on demonstration rejecting the the re-election. Several controversial bills from anti-corruption, criminal code revision to job creation law were provoking series of massive protests and riots across the country. – 50 words

If this is doesn't create WP:undue weight, I don't know what else could. At the risk of repeating the point of the preceding comments: a condensed overview should not be inflated by recentism. –Austronesier (talk) 14:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@Austronesier: However, there are a lot major events in Indonesia after 2004 that attract worldwide attention. Therefore, it is much wiser to preserve several points in a few sentences about the events instead of totally removing them. (NouVa (talk) 02:12, 3 December 2020 (UTC))

@NouVa: The number of major events is not the point here. There are many of course, but not all of them warrants a place on the main (or is it in your view that all of them should be put on the main?). As I've said, subs can cover them too. Make good use of them instead of the main. AdaCiccone (talk) 09:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, the question is not whether events are important, but the weight of their importance within the entire scope of Indonesian history. CMD (talk) 09:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@NouVa: We do not include every single event in Indonesian history in the Indonesia article - that's what the <year> in Indonesia articles are for. Much less are events like the 2020 protests that did not cause any political changes or any deaths - its chief claim to fame is being the local media topic of the month and "worldwide attention" is compulsory reporting by BBC, Reuters, or AP, making the third-page news internationally for large newspapers maybe for two days and forgotten afterwards. It's not even the biggest news of 2020. Juxlos (talk) 14:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@AdaCiccone: When you read the Indonesia article in modern history section that the latest thing is talking about a 2004 event, while now is 2020, is it quite outdated while mentioning the latest major event of modern history which happening 16 years ago? I mean, is there no any significant event in Indonesia in the last 16 years?
I don't say that all of the events should be put on the main but pertaining some points of them would be better than leave it as it is now.

@Juxlos: Who said that the protests that did not cause any political changes or any deaths? have you read this or this, this ? If you read Portal:Current events; there were 2016 Jakarta bombing, 2018 Palu earthquake, 2020 protests, etc. placed among the top Current events of for weeks. (NouVa (talk) 07:25, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

Yes, and? If you include all of these events, you will be looking at a modern history section as long as the rest of the article. This isn't a matter of "this event isn't notable", it's "is this event major enough to compare to things like the Proclamation of Indonesian independence, the Dutch East Indies campaign, the fall of Suharto, the 30 September movement or the Java War?", all of which are included without controversy. Ask yourself this: in a hundred years, will anyone put these events in history books, or will they be barely a footnote in history? If it's the latter, putting them in the headline article about Indonesia is recentism. Juxlos (talk) 07:30, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

If you ask me "in a hundred years, will anyone put these events in history books, or will they be barely a footnote in history?" I cannot foretell whether it will happen or not. But one thing for sure that the professional academicians and historians would not omit in their books about Indonesia that a lot of disastrous events and instabilities happening in the country between 2004-2020, not vice versa. (NouVa (talk) 08:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

The History section in this article is not comparable to a book, it is a very short summary. A better question is, what would the professional academics and historians include in the blurb of their books? What would the key events they mention in their short about this book summaries be? CMD (talk) 08:14, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

If those professional academicians and historians use Wikipedia (that's a big if, by the way) to aid their Indonesia-related research, I doubt they would be so stupid that they somehow miss the many numbers of the sub-articles, whose job are to expand and detail what's on the larger, main articles, which is essentially a summary, or at least how Wikipedia works. This is exactly what you should do. Put whatever events you want in the 2004-20 period on the subs, not the main. The 'Modern era' section is adequate already that additions of relatively recent events would bring tone inconsistency when the History section is read as a whole. AdaCiccone (talk) 08:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course a wikipedia article is not comparable to a book, and I did never say professional academicians and historians will use Wikipedia as single sources for their researches, while you might fail to notice that a lot of "journalists, newspapers, television headlines, international media" had the records and evidences covering all those events in the country. I agree that main article consists of only summary to link sub-articles which are more detail. But, did you see any summary or links of major events after tsunami in 2004? do you think that nothing significant happened after that year?

Needless to say, this discussion may not be pretty effective to consensus, thus I filed this case to dispute resolution for the better... (NouVa (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2020 (UTC))

There is some recent history, for example the 2019 elections, in the Government and Politics section. If that section was shifted to be after History, that would better present the flow from important events in History to the current political situation. CMD (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I guess that would not be in accordance with the structure of other country articles, unless of course, there is a Wikipedia-wide consensus or policy stating that the structure is best left to each country's talk page and the consensus of editors there. AdaCiccone (talk) 04:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Different country pages use different structures. Rwanda is an example of the History section leading directly to the Politics and government section which includes recent political history in the first paragraph. CMD (talk) 05:25, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

RFC on contemporary events addition on Post-World War II section

While Indonesia has a lot of events in the last decade, Should the latest info of the country only talking around 2004 tsunami (17 years ago) event, or should it be renewed? NouVa (talk) 20:18, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• Per above, events should be considered and added based on their due weight within WP:Summary style. CMD (talk) 01:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• NouVa should feel free to propose anything, but I think the "History" implies "long ago" and this section is presented as summarizing parts of the History of Indonesia. The article might do well to have a recent events section, or to include recent events in other subsections as appropriate. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:43, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
• The current paragraph is not limited to information till 2004. Example, "however, the economy has performed strongly in the last 15 years" is actually talking about the period till now. I can agree with adding more information, but everything has to be added by due weight. Please note that a major incident like the 2004 Tsunami had been summarised in half a sentence. So only significant changes/facts should be added and the facts should be properly summarised. Some possible things to add - religious conflict (Ahok's blasphemy case?), economic development in 2015-2020 (startup scene) and plans to move the capital.--DreamLinker (talk) 22:59, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
• This is a non-RfC as long as there is no actual proposed content on which we can comment on. –Austronesier (talk) 18:03, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Renew Per WP:SIGCOV and WP:NOTABLE — Preceding unsigned comment added by NouVa (talk • contribs) 09:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@NouVa: WP:NOTABLE (and the subsection WP:SIGCOV) have nothing to do with a question like this. To quote, notability "is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article" and "notability guidelines do not apply to contents of articles". You are looking for WP:DUE. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 08:46, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Javanese in the infobox

Can we do something like this (as in Spain)?

Official language: Indonesian

I have added the info about the new regulation in Yogya in the main text anayway, inclusion in the infobox is optional considering due weight (nothing should be only in the infobox). IMO, it is sufficiently significant for inclusion there, but only in a note, since it only affects 1.4% of the population and 0.2% of the Indonesian territory. Thoughts? –Austronesier (talk) 06:24, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Agree sufficient for the short amount of text it takes in the article body. For the infobox, I'd actually propose removing the unspecific 700 languages mention (these are not really "Regional languages"), and add Javanese (and others if applicable) there instead, as Philippines does. This would balance it not being an official language of Indonesia, but still show it being an official language within Indonesia. CMD (talk) 08:00, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

The template doc has: |regional_languages = <!--Languages recognised or associated with particular regions within the country/territory-->. "Associated" applies to virtually all bahasa daerah, and many of them have local recognition of some kind. Maybe we can add a customized "Regional official languages" field? I am not aware whether any other province has gone as far as the DIY in the explicit designation of the regional language as resmi. –Austronesier (talk) 08:57, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Depends what you consider "region" to mean I suppose, in my mind it implies a reasonably large area. For criteria for a field, I don't think we'd need to go as far as Yogyakarta went, other forms of local recognition could work. CMD (talk) 09:34, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Downtown of Central Surabaya.jpg (discussion)
• Jakarta Skyline Part 2.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2021

Robertparkciler (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DrKay (talk) 07:45, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2021

At the end of the first paragraph of the page, this quote is stated, “ Java, the world's most populous island, is home over half of the country's population.” Instead of “home over half, it should be “home TO over half.” The to must be added, it’s a clear grammatical error. ZMest54 (talk) 02:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Done, CMD (talk) 02:28, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Recent edits

@Rantemario: I'd appreciate it if you state your reasons of your reverts of my multiple edits recently. Those edits clearly have summaries in them, and I cited some WP policies too, which you reverted all of it without any summary or reason at all. Please discuss here. Thank you. AdaCiccone (talk) 03:26, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay sorry, I meant to revert some things but your edits got caught. You can proceed to save your edits. Rantemario (talk) 02:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Alright cool. Thanks for clarifying. AdaCiccone (talk) 13:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2021

Please Kreolisasi (talk) 01:33, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. CMD (talk) 02:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Istiqlal Mosque Eid ul Fitr Jamaah 2.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

wrong wording for religious demographics

after reading, it feels as if Indonesia has 99% Sunni Muslim population. it should say that among Muslim population sunnis are 99%. in fact it does not give what percentage of Indonesian population is Muslim ! 2402:3A80:CB7:162E:8848:AAAE:BBD0:3CC0 (talk) 03:31, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Clarified (I guess). (CC) Tbhotch^™ 03:39, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

The previous sentence already informs readers that, among the 231 million Muslims, 99% of them are Sunnis.

With 231 million adherents in 2018, Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim-majority country, with Sunnis being the majority (99%).

New sentence is a bit redundant compared to the previous one. But I agree with the percentage though, for consistency. AdaCiccone (talk) 11:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Added the history of the old order, new order, and reform

I think that the period of the Old Order, the New Order, and the Reformation should be added so that readers can understand how Indonesia's post-independence period was like other countries, not just independence and recognition. Baqotun0023 (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

This is already included in the later history subsection and in the Government and Politics section. CMD (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Renew photo's

A lot of pictures in this article reflect the Indonesia of years ago. I think we should renew/replace some photo's to give this article a more fresh wind of what the state of Indonesia is now. For example, the picture of the Bandung Institute of Technology is old and I think photo's from may 1998 in the subject of human rights should be replaced with a more recent issue. SwoerMell (talk) 18:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Read this, and knock yourself sideways --Merbabu (talk) 01:36, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2022

Add “Bali” to the list of islands among Java and Sulawesi listed in the first paragraph of the article, due to its highly relevant popularity as a well-established international tourist destination and cultural center. There is also a common misconception that Bali is an independent nation in it’s own right, and this edit would help to correct that. 71.232.40.255 (talk) 18:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The largest islands are listed, Bali doesn't come close.

CMD (talk) 20:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

New capital

Given that there has been the usual surge in users trying to update content, I would like to bring up a Reuters report which states quite categorically that the capital is still Jakarta. I quote: "but no timeframe has yet been set for finalization of the project, and Jakarta will remain the capital until a presidential decree is issued to formalize the change.

If anyone can provide relevant sources that states the capital has actually shifted, please do list them. As far as I can tell, the bill has only approved the relocation of the capital, but not its actual move, yet. Seloloving (talk) 05:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 February 2022

change religiion census to the newest 2022 Ministry of Religious Affairs official census data from 2018 data (3 year late) https://data.kemenag.go.id/statistik/agama/umat/agama Jauzaidan (talk) 00:38, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

 Question: I do not speak Indonesian, but Google Translate says the disclaimer at the bottom says "The data presented is Real-Time", which suggests it was generated automatically with math, something along the lines of worldometer. If the disclaimer says something else, then the data is probably usable, but I did not do the edit because of that. Leaving open. casualdejekyll 19:41, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Adding answered=yes to template to await requester input. casualdejekyll 13:48, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Coat of Arms of East Nusa Tenggara NEW.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:53, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—114.5.223.237 (talk) 04:52, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

You haven't said what you think is wrong with the coordinates in the article, and they appear to be correct. If you still think that there is an error, you'll need to supply a clear explanation of what it is. Deor (talk) 14:17, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion wrong wording for religious demographics Added the history of the old order, new order, and reform

Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion wrong wording for religious demographics Added the history of the old order, new order, and reform 78.138.31.216 (talk) 07:06, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2022

Indonesia's GDP(PPP) 2022 estimate should be US$3,995 billion instead of US$3,995 trillion. Indonesia's GDP(nominal) 2022 estimate should be US$1,289 billion instead of US$1,289 trillion 113.255.106.145 (talk) 02:04, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed Changed commas to periods. Juxlos (talk) 04:38, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2022

Hi can i please edit wiki

Thanks Anonamiss 139.130.234.194 (talk) 06:23, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Cannolis (talk) 07:30, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2022

In the ETHYMOLOGY section, second sentence: "The name dates BACK to the 19th century..." ApprentiDiderot (talk) 04:19, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done thought it was a typo for a second until after I did it, but "...dates to..." is still correct grammar so this is probably just a stylistic choice from what I've read 💜  melecie  talk - 08:45, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2022

Please change

Indonesia/Archive 2
Capital and largest city	Jakarta 6°10′S 106°49′E

to

Indonesia/Archive 2
Capital	Jakarta (current) Nusantara (under construction) 0°57′28″S 116°41′59″E
Largest city	Jakarta

Everywiki (talk) 01:01, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 01:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

revisions of article

I feel the history section is long overdue for a revamp. It should be divided into pre-historic, early civilization, formation of large empires(not a good title but most closely means majaphait era), Islamic era, colonial era, modern era. there simply is not enough information on the page as well — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josepherino (talk • contribs) 00:47, 20 June 2022 (UTC) Striked out comments by blocked sock. –Austronesier (talk) 21:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

For all of the information you mention, see History of Indonesia and further subpages. There are no such information on the main article because WP:LENGTH needs to be taken into account. AdaCiccone (talk) 05:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

This looks really worrisome…

Indonesian groups decry ‘destruction of democracy’ as new criminal code curbs sex, free speech - South China Morning Post

Noticed a lot of articles reporting on the banning of extramarital sex, but not the provisions about making it illegal to criticize the Indonesian government. XTheBedrockX (talk) 09:38, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• National anthem of the Indonesia.ogg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Economic data - (conversation moved from User talk:Ckfasdf)

Hello there - what's the particular issue here? While I suspect your argument is that it's a reliable source (and I'd agree), wouldn't 2023 data be a (future) forecast? And therefore an actual (2022?) be a better piece of data to quote? The linked source: https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/weo-database/2022/October/weo-report?c=536,&s=NGDPD,PPPGDP,NGDPDPC,PPPPC,PPPSH,&sy=2020&ey=2027&ssm=0&scsm=1&scc=0&ssd=1&ssc=0&sic=0&sort=country&ds=.&br=1 regards, --Merbabu (talk) 01:55, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@Merbabu: Applaused previously update Indonesian GDP and PPP 2023 estimate using the above reference (his edit history shows that he also update other countries economics data). Back in 2022, that parameter also display 2022 estimate based previous version of that reference. Therefore IMO, Applaused's edit is just normal information update (I don't think there is any room for controversy).

Then our friends Eustatius Strijder came and revert Applaused's edit and said "Reverted unreliable sources, references does not says that." on the edit summary. When I noticed that edit, then I reverted his edit because for me it was unreasonable. Ckfasdf (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

In the references it says that Indonesia has a GDP (Nominal) per capita of 4,691.236 Dollars and has a GDP per capita Purchasing Parity of 14,638 dollars as of 2022 data. The references provided did not provide for the 2023 data yet. Also, in Wikipedia you cannot give estimations of Invalid sources, it would be void and invalid according to WP:RS as the references provided does not give estimations for the 2023 data. Eustatius Strijder (talk) 04:18, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@Eustatius Strijder: - what is your concern with the reference? It clearly says 2023. link here. Once again I'm struggling with your limited English - how is it "invalid sources"?

Also, you are now on 3 reverts. It seems you haven't learnt much in the last week or so. --Merbabu (talk) 05:03, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

area

Indonesia 1945 is Sumatra, Java and Madura. acknowledged by Netherlands until today. And we never changed. ignore another island. Refers to australia; new Caledonia, Fiji, Kiribati, vanuatu. Patrick Chaptlin (talk) 17:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Why Nusantara city is removed

Indonesia will move the capital city to Nusantara in 2024, but why remove the city even though there is an official article that definitely says the capital city is moving like (here) and (here) Whatsup236 (talk) 15:02, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Until the capital moves, it remains at Jakarta. CMD (talk) 15:19, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Indonesiaraya.ogg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:23, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Symbol name change

They added national emblem in place of coat of arms text below the logo so recently.2404:8000:1027:85F6:C86F:F845:A935:F8EE (talk) 18:55, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Indonesia Product Exports (2019).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:06, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Indonesian as the official and national language

Is there any reason for the redundancy in the infobox for Indonesian being the official and national language, rather than just the official language? There is a meta comment near it pointing this out, but is there any reason why the infobox shouldn't just state "official language" rather than "official language and national language"? Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 05:47, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Definitely not helpful in the infobox. The symbolic importance of the language could be explained in the prose where context would be provided, but it's currently not in the body at all despite a brief mention in the lead. CMD (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

It's important to note that while "official language" and "national language" may have different meanings, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Moreover, as Article 36 of The 1945 Constitution of The Republic of Indonesia it stated that Bahasa Indonesia is the 'bahasa nasional', the national language. Badpuccini (talk) 04:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

While official English translation of article 36 of Constitution of The Republic of Indonesia did says The national language is Indonesian. The term of "bahasa nasional" is actually never used in official documents. In fact article 36 of constitution in Indonesian says Bahasa Negara ialah Bahasa Indonesia. Furthermore article 25 of Law No. 24/2009 on flag, languages, and national symbol, which serve as further explanation of article 36 of Constitution, states Bahasa Indonesia yang dinyatakan sebagai bahasa resmi negara dalam Pasal 36 Undang-Undang Dasar Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia Tahun 1945 bersumber dari bahasa yang diikrarkan dalam Sumpah Pemuda tanggal 28 Oktober 1928 sebagai bahasa persatuan yang dikembangkan sesuai dengan dinamika peradaban bangsa. Only bahasa resmi (lit. official language) is mentioned. So, actually there is no need to differentiate national language and official language. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:18, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

According to a paper published by The Ministry of Education, Culture, Research, and Technology, the position and function of Bahasa Indonesia are intentionally divided into the categories of national language and official language (bahasa negara). While the terms "national language" and "official language" may coincide, or may be intentionally separate. In this communication by the Ministry source, it is important to note the deliberate separation between these two concepts. Badpuccini (talk) 04:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Can you please link to a page with full bibliographical info? Kemdikbud hosts lots of papers and often serves as repository for publications of all sorts (including theses), not just their own publications.

In any case, the source describes the function of Indonesian as an official language simply as a corollary of independence, with the national language as an idealistic vehicle of unity acquiring concrete functions with the emergence of institutions of the independent Indonesian state. So it is not about two different things. –Austronesier (talk) 07:16, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2023

Change "a Island country" in the first sentence to "an island country." KnittingRhys (talk) 18:18, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Tollens (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

The Netherlands has recognized Indonesia's independence to be 17 August 1945

This has been officially recognized by the NL government and needs to be reflected in the Wiki page. -Fixy (talk) 10:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

While it's true that Dutch Prime Minister did says The Netherlands recognizes "fully and without reservation" that Indonesia became independent on 17 August 1945 in parliamentary debate. His spokeperson also stated he Netherlands’ recognition of Indonesia’s independence in 1945 will change nothing legally. Furthermore in was mentioned in the source that The Netherlands will continue to legally hold on to 1949, when the Netherlands handed over power after a bloody war. So, basically nothing really changes and no need to change the article. Ckfasdf (talk) 14:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

If we really need to change, then I suggest to replace parameter established_event2 = [[Dutch–Indonesian Round Table Conference|Recognition]] to established_event2 = [[Dutch–Indonesian Round Table Conference|Transfer of Sovereignty]], since transfer of sovereignty is an event in the past and independent to recognition of Indonesia Independece by Nehterlands. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I suspect most people read "Recognition" as an event, rather than reading it as the continuous present perfect meaning that seems to be implied in this discussion. CMD (talk) 02:09, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Update population estimate

There's a 110.137.33.32 (talk) 17:57, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a more recent population estimate from the WFB.

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/population/country-comparison/

I found this and it listed Indonesia's 2023 population estimate is 279,476,346.

Please add this. 110.137.33.32 (talk) 17:59, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a specific page on Indonesia's 2023 population estimate from the WFB, but I think there is. 110.137.33.32 (talk) 18:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

The 2023 population estimate of Indonesia is 279,476,346 according to the WFB 110.137.33.32 (talk) 18:13, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Addition of new Capital City

In 17 August 2024, Indonesia has moved to Nusantara. And then why if i adding this this city instead it was returned even though referring to here that Indonesia had officially transferred The city on its Independence Day. So isn't it already De Jure if Nusantara is a candidate for the capital city? Whatsup236 (talk) 11:33, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

It is not 2024 yet. CMD (talk) 12:08, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Until the actual move has been completed and done, which is still a year from now, Indonesia's capital city remains in Jakarta. AdaCiccone (talk) 03:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Isn't the legal basis fixed, right, if 2024 has moved officially? and source here Whatsup236 (talk) 11:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Article 39 on that document reads as follows: "The position, function and role of the State Capital will remain in the Special Capital Region of Jakarta Province until the date the transfer of the National Capital City from the Special Capital Region Province of Jakarta to the Capital City of the Archipelago is determined by a Presidential Decree." AdaCiccone (talk) 14:43, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Why not adding more history of Indonesia

Like, the Majapahit Empire, Islamization of the archipelago and the time when Indonesia became a federal country Touch some grass (talk) 07:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

We have a dedicated article, History of Indonesia, linked from this page which touches upon those topics. CMD (talk) 07:35, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Why not adding independent from Japan

Indonesia has Independent at August 17, 1945, which independent from Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies. So whay not also adding that despite Japan colonized Indonesia? 2001:448A:2094:4331:B00D:FEDE:1CFB:683F (talk) 02:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

they did, "The Japanese invasion and occupation during World War II ended Dutch rule and encouraged the independence movement. Two days after the surrender of Japan in August 1945, Sukarno and Mohammad Hatta issued the Proclamation of Indonesian Independence.", this text or something similar has probably been here before your statement. 110.138.80.99 (talk) 15:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

edit request

Please indicate the disambiguation page Indonesia (disambiguation)

Please add the hatnote:

For other uses, see Indonesia (disambiguation).

{{other uses|Indonesia (disambiguation)}}

-- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 05:28, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

 Added. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈) 05:50, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

What English does Indonesia use?

According to the image above, Indonesia uses American spelling, and not British. The image's history shows Indonesia as red(🇬🇧), and was changed to blue(🇺🇸) about three years ago. If the file is right, every article on Indonesia will need to switch to American English. (If it's wrong only the file will need correcting.) If you're Indonesian or know enough about Indonesia to provide valid input, please give your two cents. (And I used flag emojis. Big deal.) IPs are people too 🇺🇸🦅 18:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't there be a lot of overlap with media coming in from Malaysia and Singapore, both of which use variants of British English, Singaporean English and Malaysian English, since both MY and SG use Malay, and Indonesian intelligible with Malaysian Malay -- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 05:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Indonesian rarely care about Singapore and Malaysia's media. So it wouldn't be a problem Kimanji1990 (talk) 05:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, Indonesia should be yellow. During our early education, we had been provided with edubooks with British spelling – colour instead of color. But, in the college and work, the certification requirement is commonly using TOEFL instead of IELTS. Also, Indonesia is one of the country with fastest internet-growing users, therefore with mainly American media consumed on the internet, we naturally using color more often and then forgot what have been taught about colour in class. EdhyRa (talk) 04:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Alleged transfer of capital to Nusantara

I received an allegation that the capital city would be moved on August 17 2024 from here and here. So will the capital city listed in the infobox be replaced with Nusantara (IKN) on that date or keep listed Jakarta instead? Baqotun0023 (talk) 04:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

If reliable secondary sources agree the capital has been moved, I expect the infobox would be updated to match. CMD (talk) 07:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, thank you for the explanation, there is still a bit of overlap regarding the relocation of the capital city. We hope contributors will consider this issue 🙏. Baqotun0023 (talk) 12:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I want to add here, that based on the Law on State Capital (UU No.3 2022) which went into effect on 15 February 2022, after at most two years (that means 15 February 2024), the capital status of Jakarta as stipulated in UU No.27 2007 will be void. Although technically it also needs a prerequisite of Presidential Decree on formalizing the move of the capital to Nusantara.

Meaning though de jure, the capital is Nusantara, though de facto it still is Jakarta (or maybe currently it is a legal limbo where Indonesia does not have a capital right now). Envapid (talk) 12:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

So, is it better to just use the word "None", rather than having 2 cities in different columns? (even though it says none, I will also add a description) Baqotun0023 (talk) 08:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry according from here, Jakarta remains Capital City until presidential decree Baqotun0023 (talk) 08:15, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Presumably it would mean that. The law is rather confusing, this is probably because they thought the decree and a new bill defining Jakarta status would have been passed in that two years timeframe before the deadline, technically there is no "Provinsi Daerah Khusus Ibukota Jakarta" as stated in chapter 39 anymore as the UU no.27 2007 (which subsumed previous law defining Jakarta) is not in force anymore as per deadline. They are even still debating the "Daerah Khusus Jakarta" bill, so slow DPR as usual. Envapid (talk) 15:56, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Driving-side

Driving side - right — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.51.189.115 (talk) 12:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Driving-side: Kanan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jyponto (talk • contribs) 13:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

No, don't even try it, for the sake of others' and your own life. –Austronesier (talk) 15:01, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Make the effort to click the driving side article, read and understand what it means. It only takes several minutes. AdaCiccone (talk) 04:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2024

Under the subheading "Religion", change the first word "Despite" to "Although" 95.88.156.116 (talk) 11:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Liu1126 (talk) 12:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2024

I wanna change the Indonesian anthem file to the original Indonesian Anthem MacMillan12 (talk) 23:36, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. PianoDan (talk) 21:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)