Talk:Institute of the Incarnate Word

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Untitled[edit]

Christophegarcia1972: As an earlier contributer stated, the claims that Carlos Buela didn't found IVE are unsupported. In fact, the links that YOU ADDED to this article explicitly contradict your claim.

Christophegarcia1972: If you are who I think you are, I know that you are a former IVE priest with an anti-IVE agenda. According to Wikipedia's conflict of interest policy, you should not be editing this page.

71.178.69.218 (talk) 04:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

POV / Reliable Source Issues[edit]

As far as I understand, the founder stepped down in 199 and 2010 plus the IVE was investigated by the vatican. Such things may or may not be a negative judgement but they are important. The timeline is nice but it includes unimportant events (one more parish in the States) while skipping other key ones (the Vatican investigation). As well, there is not a single reference, even to the IVE site. You can read my profile, I am a member of a religious community that doesn't have a perfect history (the Legion of Christ) and I am not out to bash the IVE. I think that having a WP:NPOV page will only help. As it is now, I personally would not trust this page and seek other sources. Can somebody please clean this up? I don't have time right now. >> Jesus Loves You! M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemusfeci) 14:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

IVE supporters: please stop[edit]

Dear IVE supporters. I understand your zeal but this is not your website so you need to follow the rules:

1. Few if any external links to your site in the article.

2. Include controversies

3. Don't get carried away about secondary things like running 1-2 parishes in country X or how Fr Buela did something the same day as JP2. Those may have meaning for you but not for Wikipedia.

4. If you want help, write on my talk page. I too am a religious who checks my community's page but I know what WP:NPOV means. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemusfeci) 16:18, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Defamation[edit]

When "controversies" are published, and their only supporting evidence are bloggers who think they know what is going on or minor newspaper outlets who prematurely report on non-conclusive investigations, then those "controversies" are really examples of defamation. A good reputation should be the first thing guarded, and not NPOV. There needs to be some serious discernment regarding what is a credible news source and what is not.Cbetheridge (talk) 03:37, 16 March 2016 (UTC)Cbetheridge

Blogs are not permissible as reliable sources. Newspapers are. Wikipedia has no obligation (beyond the policy of WP:BLP) to "guard a good reputation" of any organization. We simply report what is available in reliable secondary sources, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Elizium23 (talk) 04:38, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Cbetheridge, the majority of the article is sourced straight from IVE material with no additional corroboration. Do you want to remove that as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.202.139.223 (talk) 12:30, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Cbetheridge, the majority of your contributions to the page have been completely unsourced, are subjective but written as if they are objective, or are sourced from IVE/SSVM published resources. Meanwhile you have deleted much properly sourced material. Please clean up and source your contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.202.139.223 (talk) 06:08, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

News[edit]

There should be some mention of the fact that the founder was sentenced in January 2010 by the Vatican for "immoral behavior" and was forbidden any further contact with the institutes founded by him. Vatican Decree (22 Jan. 2010) specifying these measures was published only in November 2015 in ex-member blogs.[1] Superiors did not collaborate, trying largely to protect Fr. Buela and undermine his contact ban. Therefore, Carlos Walker was destitute from his position as a General Superior on 16 December 2015 and IVE was put beyond special Authority of Papal Visitors R.P. Vito Angelo Todisco (Rota Romana) and R.P. Philippe Toxé (Dominican). An Extraordinary General Chapter in July 2016 confirmed all measures against former leaders. The Chapter was presided by Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio. A new Superior General (the Argentine Fr. Gustavo Nieto) was elected and former Superior Carlos Walker sent to Taiwan. See: Cambia la dirección del IVE y se confirma la condena al P. Buela por abusos. and IVE General Chapter – The Election of New Authorities. Similarly, there was also a change of leadership at the Sisters' Congregation: On July 4, 2016 long-term leader M. Anima Christi van Eijck (Superior General since 1998) was replaced by Argentine M. Corredentora Rodríguez.[2] --JordiCuber (talk) 10:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Sources for last edit (see my talk page): --Jordi (talk) 00:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Anfang 2010 wurde der Ordensgründer Carlos Miguel Buela, der 1988 auch den weiblichen Zweig der Gemeinschaft gegründet hatte, wegen Missbrauchsvorwürfen vom Vatikan mit lebenslanger Wirkung abgesetzt und erhielt ein Kontaktverbot zu seinen Gemeinschaften. Da Verdunklungsgefahr besteht und sich das IVE nicht an die (intern geheim gehaltene)[1] Kontaktsperre hielt und dem Gründer weiterhin Zutritt zu seinen Niederlassungen gestattete, wurde das Institut am 16. Dezember 2015 auf Weisung der vatikanischen Ordenskongregation unter Aufsicht gestellt. Die Leitung wurde seitdem von den Visitatoren Vito Angelo Todisco, einem Beamten der päpstlichen Rota, und dem Dominikaner Philippe Toxé wahrgenommen; dem VII. Generalkapitel im Juli 2016, das die Maßnahmen gegen die frühere Ordensleitung bestätigte, saß Kurienkardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio vor. Zum neuen Generaloberen wurde der Argentinier Gustavo Nieto gewählt; der bis 2015 amtierende Generalobere Carlos Walker wurde auf eigenen Wunsch nach Taiwan versetzt.[2][3]
Buela selbst wurde wegen psychologischen Missbrauchs und massiver, jahrzehntelang wiederholter sexueller Übergriffe gegenüber (volljährigen) Ordensangehörigen kirchlich verurteilt und 2013 vom Priesteramt suspendiert. Ende November 2016 gelangten die Missbrauchsvorwürfe gegen Buela erneut in die öffentliche Berichterstattung, nachdem in Argentinien ein anderer Missbrauchsfall Aufsehen erregt hatte, der aber nichts mit dem IVE zu tun hat. Daraufhin wandten sich eine Anzahl ehemaliger argentinischer IVE-Seminaristen, die nach ihren Angaben von Carlos Buela missbraucht worden waren, mit Einzelheiten ihrer Erlebnisse an die Öffentlichkeit. Unter den früheren Opfern Buelas sollen sich den Berichten zufolge auch minderjährige Seminaristen befunden haben. Zugleich wurde bekannt, dass der selbst aus Argentinien stammende Papst Franziskus bereits 2013 die Klosterhaft des Ordensgründers in dem Konvent San Isidro de Dueñas bei Palencia in Spanien angeordnet hatte, wo er sich unter Verantwortung des dortigen Abtes aufhalten musste und das Kloster ohne kirchliche Erlaubnis nicht verlassen darf, was er in der Vergangenheit allerdings dennoch tat. Ebenfalls bekannt wurde, dass von den 450 in der Ordensgemeinschaft seit den 1980er Jahren geweihten Priestern etwa die Hälfte das Ordensinstitut später wieder verließen, worunter sich zahlreiche Opfer von Buelas Übergriffen befinden sollen.[4]
References
  1. ^ Das päpstliche Dekret vom 22. Januar 2010 wurde in der Öffentlichkeit erst im November 2015 durch Veröffentlichung auf Blogs von Ex-Mitgliedern bekannt.
  2. ^ Cambia la dirección del IVE y se confirma la condena al P. Buela por abusos. Bericht auf InfoCatólica vom 5. August 2016 (spanisch), abgerufen am 7. August 2016.
  3. ^ IVE General Chapter – The Election of New Authorities. Mitteilung auf dem Ordensblog vom 14. Juli 2016 (englisch), abgerufen am 7. August 2016.
  4. ^ Los abusos del fundador del Instituto del Verbo Encarnado, in: Religión Digital, Madrid (Spanien);
    Otro cura de Mendoza fue acusado por abuso, in: InfoCampo, Mendoza (Argentinien);
    Reflotan denuncias de abuso sexual en el Verbo Encarnado, in: Diario Vox, Mendoza (Argentinien);
    alle vom 1. Dezember 2016, alle abgerufen am gleichen Tag (alle spanisch).
See also
Hi, I removed the text from the template because it was being misused. The {{unbalanced}} template does not take prose as an argument. Perhaps you should just try to write the new information into the article. Also, FYI, URLs on "drive.google.com" are not reliable secondary sources. We cannot tell how/if/why they were published. Elizium23 (talk) 00:46, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Well, I think others can do that better, I don't think I am the only one who can read Spanish, and certainly others can write better English than me ;-)
The question if this decree from 2010 is admitted as a reliable source or not is interesting. Your arguments are purely formalistic, and in my understanding should not prevent it from beeing used. Of course we all know that the decree was leaked in an ex-members' blog one year ago and that blogs usually are not admitted as a reliable source. On the other hand, we all know that the decree is authentic and has not been falsified by the blogger. Nobody ever denied its authentity. It is generally known that it simply is a reliable source. So this case should be an exception to the "No Blogs" rule, also because we do not use the opinions or interpretations this blogger provides, but only the document itself, just a factual source, whose reliability cannot be doubted with good faith.
Now the situation even changed, because the details of this Decree (2010-01-22) also have been published in some Argentine press sources.[3]
--Jordi (talk) 14:19, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
User:MrsKrishanNote to Editors and other contributors: Recent information published online in Spanish On December 12th, 2016 the Diocese of San Rafael held a press conference ([in Spanish] no English transcript) to address the testimony of a certain Luis NN as reported in local Argentinian press, subsequently acknowledged by Fr Rossi of IVE here [Luis le responde al Comunicado Oficial del Verbo Encarnado (IVE)]. Bishop Taussig has thus confirmed to the faithful FOR THE FIRST TIME IN PUBLIC that Father Buela has been condemned by the appropriate authorities at the Vatican -- the Congregation for Consecrated Life -- for verified abuses with adult men at a seminary located within +Taussig's jurisdiction, and as a consequence is barred from any physical role in the governance of the Institute, assigned to a life of prayer and penance as restrictive as that of Fr Maciel the disgraced founder of the Legionaries of Christ. Following the ICE's VIIth General Chapter overseen by a Vatican delegate, on October 4th Cardinal João Braz de Aviz, the prefect of the Congregation for Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life published a second finding (reaffirming their first, published under Pope Benedict XVI) for a second time approved by a second reigning Pontiff, Pope Francis, available online in Italian here [Nuevo Decreto de la CIVCSVA al IVE] I urge and strongly encourage editors of this page to incorporate recent contributions by users such as Jordi that record the authorized Vatican history of events (and avoid participating in overt censorship by those with an institutional bias or other vested interests in keeping this information hidden from a wider Wikipedia readership). IMHO the German version (a second language of mine) of this page is more 'open-sourced' about many of the established facts of the case: Father Buela's failings, including his governance of the IVE leading to this sad juncture. MrsKrishan (talk) 06:42, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
My opposition to the edits was procedural only, as they were incorrectly executed. I have no objection whatsoever to inclusion of well-sourced information in this or any other article. It seems @Cbetheridge: had similar procedural objections to material that was poorly-sourced. Please assume good faith. Elizium23 (talk) 18:40, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Purpose of link in navigation bar to a purported place in Portuguese-speaking Angola?[edit]

Inclusion of the Languages > Bahasa Melayu (translated in English means "Malay language") linkage in the navigation bar to Buela -- nonexistant in Angola -- seems an ill fit. Can anyone shed light on its purpose? Following the link, one finds several mutually-reciprocal links under Languages (page cue in English gives "Institute of the Incarnate Word - Ingerris" linking back to the IVE-themed page not any corresponding Angolan geographical entity one might expect -- which more accurately would be named Benguela or Benguela Province (and varieties thereof in the other tongues)? IMHO an odd addition to a Catholic faith topic on English Wikipedia by the Malaysian Wikipedia User:Farhan_Shinichi; whose intrigueing internationalized onomastico meaning "happy" (Persian Farsi) "Anime hero" (Japanese) is a pseudonymous placeholder for a more serious Malaysian Wikipedia User:Aplikasi who professes the Muslim faith. False flag perhaps, duplicating either Buginese-speaking User:Farhan_Shinichi inactive since December 2012 perhaps in Indonesia (as is the pseudonymous retired User:Aplikasi) or Cyrillic Kazachstani User:Farhan_Shinichi (where the onomastico naturely may have other meanings, such as ناھىيىسى in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region or 新 'firewood' in SinoTibetan? The eponymous totally nonsensical linked-to page was created three years ago. But why, exactly, has it been linked to here? MrsKrishan (talk) 08:22, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Query re: Buela Malaysian language link
Is a possible disambiguation to philosopher Professor Alberto Buela is intended? Younger brother of the person whose biographical information is under dispute here, as a public intellectual in Argentina associated with a pronounced patriotic polemic characterized by "homo IberoAmericano," his original point-of-view dissents sharply from conventional Western consensus on principles of political economy and organizing authority within society, source of controversies of his own making:
"The Jews are almost an obsession for the philosopher Alberto Buela, who besides being a Peronist friend of the trade unionists, is a Roman Catholic apostolic often placed in positions much more conservative than the hierarchy of the Vatican. His controversial accusation of Jewish leaders to criticize the statements of Bishop Héctor Rubén Aguer of La Plata on sexual matters (he wrote in El Dia newspaper an opinion piece entitled "Fornication", about Of a "culture fornicaria" that would identify the contemporary society)." [1]
The professor has chosen to make a defence of his brother public[2] encouraging him to dissent from Vatican discipline and communicate -- via his IVE-hosted email account -- publically with detractors (precisely what the chastened cleric has been explicitly barred from doing by his superiors in the Church hierarchy in Rome). Is his relationship to the matter under discussion is worthy of inclusion in the body of the text, under the Controversies section perhaps?
References
  1. ^ (English citation from Google Translate) News article "Judíos y homosexuales contra Aguer" published by Urgente24.com describing a so-called homosexual lobby in a recent appearance on the 8910] TV show, broadcast by TotalLaVerdad1 an alternative media outlet operated for the common good in Argentina -- dated 31 August 2016; accessed December 24 2016]
  2. ^ [http://chatdecafe.wordpress.com/2016/12/19/reminiscencias-iii/ Reminiscencias III

MrsKrishan (talk) 15:33, 24 December 2016 (UTC)