Talk:Jackie Walker (activist)/Archive 1

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Archive 2

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I really don't like coming across edit wars on BLPs, and I especially dislike when the edit war is over an issue of ethnicity. I read the discussion above and it's clear that there is not consensus yet for any claims about whether or not Ms. Walker is Jewish. Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources publish about living persons; we do not analyze to come up with our own conclusions. If The Guardian publishes that she "is Jewish", then Wikipedia says that she "is Jewish". As far as her parents' ethnicity or religious practices, if we have reliable sources then it may be appropriate to include sourced mention in the article, but we cannot synthesize any conclusions about Walker's ethnicity/religion based on her parents, unless the analysis itself comes from a reliable source. If the sources say "her mother and father were Jewish" then that's all we can say. If a source says "she is Jewish because her mother and father were Jewish" then we can publish that, otherwise we're publishing an unsupported original conclusion, and that is not allowed. And while we might have other sources generally affirming Jewish matrilineal descent or whatever other conclusions about parent-child relationships with respect to Judaism, we cannot apply such a general conclusion to any particular individual. I hope this makes sense.

Furthermore, if there is a concern as to the reliability of a source, please raise the issue at WP:RSN. Thanks. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:13, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• Seeing as the present editing dispute was initiated by an editor who is now blocked for sockpuppetry, I have reduced the article protection to extended confirmed. Please make whatever changes are necessary once consensus is reached. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:17, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

And now we are back to ignoring RS, and the material has again been removed form the lead.Slatersteven (talk) 14:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Jewish

Merely having a Jewish father does not automatically make one Jewish. Orthodox and Conservative Jews say that a person with a Jewish father would need to convert to Judaism in order to be Jewish. Reform and Reconstructionist Jews say that a person with a Jewish father is only Jewish if she was raised Jewish or if she converted.

Since none of these conditions apply, Jackie Walker is not Jewish. Why not let the readers decide? The article states that her father is Jewish. Those who incorrectly believe that anyone with a Jewish father is also Jewish can therefore wrongly conclude on their own that Walker is a Jew. Those who know better will not. It is not up to Wikipdedia to state that anyone with a Jewish father is Jewish. That is an opinion, not a fact. "Revertbob" should cut it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.51.61.61 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 7 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

I agree with 108.51.61.61 here; unless Walker herself says she is Jewish herself (and there does not seem to be any evidence of that here), then we should not editorialise on this point. --Bangalamania (talk) 00:01, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

The IP is conflating religious, ethnic, cultural Jews - Jews are an ethno-religious group. Walker is ethnically Jewish through her parents and arguably culturally Jewish through having a Jewish partner, therefore, satisfies this criteria. RevertBob (talk) 09:10, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

It's not as simple at that. Who is a Jew? lists a number of criteria; some people argue that Judaism is passed down matrilineally, which would exclude Jackie Walker's father being Jewish making her Jewish by default. Either way, if there are no reliable sources saying so then it is original research to say that she is Jewish in Wikipedia's voice (or, for that matter, say that she isn't). --Bangalamania (talk) 21:34, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Again missing the point, we're not talking about Torah Jewry but Jewish ethnicity. There are reliable sources which are on the page: The Guardian and The Jewish Chronicle support her being Jewish. So it's actually original research to ignore these sources and remove this solely based on how Judaism is or isn't passed down. RevertBob (talk) 08:47, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

The Guardian article certainly backs that claim (I can't see any mention of Walker being Jewish in the JC article), and is definitely RS. --Bangalamania (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

The Guardian does not represent all of the Jews in the world. It is not the final word on whether Jackie Walker is Jewish or not. Here in the United States the four major denominations would not consider Walker to be Jewish. Conservative and Orthodox Jews say that a person with a non-Jewish mother must convert to Judaism in order to be Jewish. Reform and Reconstructionist say that a person with a Jewish father but a non-Jewish mother is only Jewish if they were raised Jewish. There is no evidence that Jackie Walker's mother was Jewish or raised her daughter to be Jewish. Nor is there evidence that the foster families who cared for Jackie Walker raised her to be Jewish.

It should go without saying that having a Jewish boyfriend does not make one Jewish. The person who pointed to Mr. Bash as causing Jackie Walker to be Jewish by having a relationship with her was being foolish.

In my explanation for one of my earlier changes I said that there is no evidence that her father was either Sephardic, Mizrahi or both. I meant Sephardic, Ashkenazic or both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JonathanMarkOfVirginia (talk • contribs) 22:05, 13 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

The New Statesman, which is a reliable source, states that Jackie Walker's mom was black and Jamaican but doesn't mention either Walker or her mother being Jewish. It states accurately that her father was Jewish. The article should reflect this RS. RS is what we go by. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/07/former-momentum-vice-chair-jackie-walker-plans-one-woman-edinburgh-fringe

In my comment above I should have added that of course Reform and Reconstructionist Jews also recognize converts to Judaism as Jews. However, that matter is irrelevant as no one including Jackie Walker herself is claiming that she has converted to Judaism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JonathanMarkOfVirginia (talk • contribs) 22:11, 13 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

Sources omitting content isn't justification for removing content which is supported by sources. The point about RS supporting Walker being Jewish have already been made so you'll need RS which expressly negate this and supports the narrative you're trying to convey. RevertBob (talk) 09:01, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

The claim that Jackie Walker's mom was Jewish is unsupported by RS. Walker herself claims it. She is not RS. The claim that Jackie Walker's dad is Ashkenazic is original research, unsupported by RS. Jews from Sephardic backgrounds are named Cohen as often as Ashkenazic Jews are. Revertbob should show us his alleged RS for these claims. Statements made by Jackie Walker herself makes are not RS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JonathanMarkOfVirginia (talk • contribs) 14:11, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes it is, read the sources. RevertBob (talk) 16:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

No, Jackie Walker's statements about her ancestry in the distant past are not RS. JonathanMarkOfVirginia (talk) 17:17, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe you're finding it difficult to read the sources on the page. The above source by Camden New Journal which is RS and isn't written by Walker states: "Jackie Walker herself is a Jew of mixed race – her father is a Russian Jew, an Ashkenazi, her mother, a black Sephardic Jew."

I have never heard of the Camden New Journal. Who says it is a reliable source. What is its circulation? Does it have any expertise in who is a Jew? Did it rely on Walker's own statements or did it verify them? JonathanMarkOfVirginia (talk) 11:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

Please confirm what sources you are basing your edits on because so far the only source you have presented is the New Statesman one which doesn't tell us anything we don't already know that Walker's mother was black and Jamaican. To add original research is a serious blp violation and I'm warning you to refrain from doing so or else you may be reported. RevertBob (talk) 08:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I think that RevertBob is right in that if RSs say she is Jewish and say she has Sephardic and Ashkenazi parents, then we have to say that too. If we believe that the RSs are wrong, it doesn't matter, because that would be SYNTH/OR. If there are RSs which dispute these points, we can re-word, but nobody has supplied these so far. Also: edits that use the word claim should be avoided. And I believe there is no such thing as "religious descent" and the idea of being of Christian descent is bizarre - although again it doesn't matter what we think or know about this, unless User:JonathanMarkOfVirginia has a source saying Walker is of Christian descent. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:40, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

:::No one has proven that the Camden New Journal is a reliable source. If the Camden New Journal has evidence Jackie Walker's mother was Jewish then it should say what that evidence is. There is no evidence. It simply took Jackie Walker's word for it. Who said the Camden New Journal is a reliable source?JonathanMarkOfVirginia (talk) 12:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I looked up Camden News Journal. It is a tabloid given away for free in supermarkents in one of London's neighborhoods. Tabloids are not necessarily reliable sources. JonathanMarkOfVirginia (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

Please feel free to take this to RSN to prove that CNJ isn't RS. Simply not hearing of a publication before isn't adequate to deem it non-RS. But the current consensus is that the RS supported content should remain and the original reasearch and editorising should be kept off. RevertBob (talk) 13:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Great idea. Let's remove the claim that Jackie Walker's mom is Jewish until such time as RSN determines that the free tabloid Camden News Journal is a reliable source. Please feel free to ask RSN to prove that CNJ is a reliable source, as you suggest. Why should I have to do it? You do it. 173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:39, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

CNJ is not a tabloid. It is a respected local newspaper. It's currently used as a source in 280 Wikipedia articles, so if you think it is a bad source Jonathan take it to RSN. Of course, a stronger additional source would be better, but I think CNJ is an RS. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC) PS Not sure if this is exactly consensus yet - the IP at the top, Bangalamania and JonathanMarkOfVirginia are all opposed to the current version, although I suspect Bangalamania might not support JonathanMarkOfVirginia's version. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:59, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Any publication shaped like a tabloid which purports to report news is a tabloid, regardless of its alleged quality. The New York Daily News and the New York Post are both tabloids. But so is the National Enquirer.

The Camden News Journal is a free tabloid in the London neighborhood of Camden. Free tabloids are not necessarily reliable sources. The comment about whether I had heard of the Camden News Journal misses the point. I can show you many tabloids which are not reliable sources. They are sold at every supermarket checkout in the US.173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

Who says that the Camden News Journal is "respected"? You? Some free tabloids may be RS, some are not. If Camden News Journal is not a reliable source particularly regarding the matter of Jackie Walker's mom allegedly being Jewish then it doesn't matter if it is cited regarding other matters. Perhaps it is unreliable regarding those as well. I do not know and neither do you.173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

Walker is generally not referred to as a Jew - and nor should we. If there is an attributed source of some note (Camden New Journal wouldn't be one) saying this - we could possible quote this attributed. Icewhiz (talk) 14:13, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

It would seem to be that if she says she is Jewish, and RS repeat the claim then she is unless an authority that we can say speaks for all Jews says (explicitly) she is not there is not reason to dispute this. Also she had a Jewish mother, so why all this as if only here father was Jewish?.Slatersteven (talk) 14:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

No, Jackie Walker did not have a Jewish mother. Jackie Walker claims without evidence that 500 years ago her mom had two Jewish ancestors among thousands of other ancestors. A free tabloid given away in a London neighborhood repeated the claim that Walker's mom was Jewish as if it were so. Is Wikipedia really reduced to basing doubtful statements on free tabloids which no one has shown to be a reliable source? Did Camden News Journal even investigate the matter? Or did it simply take Jackie Walker's word for it? If it did not investigate the matter then at least on this matter it is not reliable, and there is some question as to whether it is in general reliable at all. 173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

I agree with Slatersteven. It is absolutely not Wikipedia's job to say who is and isn't Jewish, or to endorse any particular definition of Jewishness. If she so identifies and if RSs identify her as such, it is not up to us to judge otherwise. I agree we could probably do better than the Camden New Journal, but it is not that bad. Checking some other sources. Some sources don't identify her ethnicity.[1] Others do, including the BBC ("Ms Walker, who is Jewish herself,"[2]), the Guardian ("Walker, who along with her partner is Jewish,"[3]), Jewish News ("Walker, who is Jewish,"[4]), and the Tablet, a US Jewish magazine ("Walker herself is Jewish"[5]). Others refer to her parentage rather than her identity, which might be safer, e.g. the New Statesman ("Walker, born to a Jamaican mother and a Russian Jewish father,"[6]). And some sources use a more circumspect description, e.g. the Jewish News again ("Jackie Walker, who claims both black and Jewish heritage,"[7], "Walker, who claims Jewish heritage,"[8]) or the Forward ("Jackie Walker, an activist who defines as being both black and Jewish" [9]). I can't see an RS saying she is not Jewish, although that would obviously be true of most non-Jewish people. I think that is enough RSs for us to call her Jewish. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:10, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

RevertBob states "It is absolutely not Wikipedia's job to say who is and isn't Jewish, or to endorse any particular definition of Jewishness." That is my point exactly. Therefore the Wikipedia entry on Jackie Walker should not state as if it were a fact that Jackie Walker and her mom are Jewish.173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

This - news blog - has a detailed analysis of her self-identification and upbringing, saying she's not Jewish. In here they say in their own voice - Walker, who says both she and her partner have Jewish ancestors, was suspended and then reinstated in May after comments she made on Facebook. Taking part in a discussion with another Facebook poster, Walker said that her own ancestors were involved in the Jewish and African genocides “on all sides.” On Sunday, Walker claimed accusations of anti-Semitism were being “exaggerated” and “weaponized” to undermine Corbyn..Icewhiz (talk) 16:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Blogs are not often RS, why is this (and I note that " though there are some non-Orthodox synagogues now which accept members with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother.")? as to times of Israel source, forgive me but I cannot see where they say she is not Jewish, only that she says she is (which is not a denial by anyone).Slatersteven (talk) 16:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

That would be a WP:NEWSBLOG - a bit different from a straight up blog. As for the second one - it does not say she says she is Jewish. Icewhiz (talk) 16:41, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

"These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals", so who is he, as to "it does not say she is", Not all sources say the sea is wet, that does not mean it is not wet.Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The ToI Israel blogpost is just a personal blog hosted by the paper; it's not a news blog strictly speaking. ToI has no editorial control or fact checking on those blogs; anyone can apply for one. Hoffman is not a professional or expert in any relevant field. We could quote his opinion with attribution if there's a reason he's noteworthy, but we can't use him as a source for facts. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:02, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

TOI has taken down blogs which are shown to be inaccurate. You should ask TOI to take down the blog if you think it is lying. As for fact-checking, no one has shown that the free tabloid in Camden claiming that Jackie Walker's mom was Jewish did any fact checking. It simply took Jackie Walker's word for it. The person who wrote the tabloid article may falsely believe as Jackie Walker does, that if a person has even a smidgin of Jewish ancestry then they are Jews. Some editors of this entry seem to believe that as well. 173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

Well - it does at least contain a detailed analysis of this - perhaps helping us find sources. I would like to see better sources that "is Jewish"/"is not Jewish".Icewhiz (talk) 17:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean "better sources", we have the BBC and the Guardian, two of the most respected sources in the UK (if not the world). added to this other (less quality) sources. On the other hand, a blog. So we have provided RS.Slatersteven (talk) 17:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Neither the BBC nor the Guardian has ever claimed that Jackie Walker's mom was Jewish. That is something that some Wikipedia editors are wrongly pulling from a free tabloid given away in the Camden neighborhood of London. If you won't agree to remove the claim that Jackie Walker herself is a Jew then for God's sake at least remove the claim that her mom was a Jew, which is based on a tabloid source and Walker herself, neither of which are RS. 173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

And now for some RS [[10]].Slatersteven (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2018 (UTC) [[11]]Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 15 November 2018 (UTC) OK lets have another [[12]]

Is three sources enough?Slatersteven (talk) 17:13, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

How about a Jewish sources [[13]], or is this not RS enough?Slatersteven (talk)

The Telegraph is a great newspaper, but it is not a "Jewish source[]" I do not know what madness would cause SlaterSteven to claim that the Telegraph is a Jewish source.173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:36, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

As the evidence from The Guardian, BBC News, The Daily Telepgraph and others seems to be pretty conclusive I assume we in agreement for inclusion based on RS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RevertBob (talk • contribs)

So you "assume", do you? Well, don't assume. I and others on this page do not agree in any way. There is no consensus here.173.120.215.147 (talk) 19:36, 16 November 2018 (UTC) (sockpuppet comment struck)

Re Slatersteven "a Jewish sources". You pasted the Telegraph again, but maybe meant the Jewish News source I cited already above ("Walker, who is Jewish,"[14]) or possibly the Tablet, a US Jewish magazine ("Walker herself is Jewish"[15]). I concur with RevertBob; this is plenty of sources. An anonymous editor has created a new section above arguing that Jewishness is matrilineal and we have no evidence of her matrilineal Jewishness, but this is original research; we simply have to go with what reliable sources say. I've looked at Hoffman's blogpost again, as per Icewhiz. He provides no additional sources, but notes that her book does not mention her father being Jewish. If there is a reliable source disputing her Jewishness, we could cite that, but so far none have been proffered. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:45, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

To say she is not Jewish, we would need a strong source - currently lacking. However that does not mean we should say she is Jewish in our own voice. A large number of sources avoid saying she is Jewish (or attribute to Walker), but rather use a Jewish roots formulation - I would argue there are more sources who avoid saying she is than those who in a very brief (and possibly not verified beyond Walker saying so) blurb say she is. Given that this individual was involved in various antisemitic incidents, we should treat claims here carefully.Icewhiz (talk) 10:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Yep it was the jewishnews source.Slatersteven (talk) 10:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

The sea is wet, even if not every source says it. To not call her Jewish because not every source says she is is a violation of wp:undue and wp:npov. Do put things in Wikipedias voice when there is no serious dispute it is true, not just because some people do not say it.Slatersteven (talk) 10:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

A non-frozen sea is usually wet. However Walker does not meet any of the normal definitions of Jew. Here vice news (appears to RS and pro-Walker) details how the Jewish community regards this - Jackie Walker is of mixed heritage, both Jewish and black Jamaican; it's easy for white Jews to dismiss her as being not fully Jewish. When the pronouncements of a few unrepresentative and unelected "Jewish community leaders" are taken to be representative of our entire community, black, leftist, pro-Palestinian Jews like Jackie Walker don't fit into simple conceptual categories.. So certainly the status here is disputed per a RS.Icewhiz (talk) 12:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Did you read the first line of it? All this says is that her Jewishness is being ignored by RS.Slatersteven (talk) 12:22, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I read the whole thing - includings the analysis of whether Jews can be antisemites - what is clear from this peice (which addresses this at some depth from a pro-Walker stance) - is that Walker's Jewishness is disputed.Icewhiz (talk) 12:33, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

It also says yes she is, so cannot be used as a source to say she is not. Now certainly we can say in the article that her Jewish status has been challenged by "unrepresentative and unelected white "Jewish community leaders". But is is a violation of undue to give their views prominence over what RS has explicitly said.Slatersteven (talk) 12:40, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

To avoid following sources which editors would no doubt accept if they fit a particular narrative is editorising which I'm sure all here would agree we should avoid and we wouldn't do on any other page.

So far we have several of the most widely used reliable sources all supporting inclusion and the only source presented as an argument to exclude says she is Jewish but it's being ignored by some. This certainly appears to be a case of UNDUE and POV. RevertBob (talk) 14:00, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

So quick re-cap, has anyone found one reliable source that says she is not Jewish?Slatersteven (talk) 10:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Vice News states this is disputed - [16]. 10:45, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

It also says she is Jewish (and also it says that only a few Jewish (self appointed) leaders think this, so makes it clear it is a fringe view), so no you do not have a source that says she is not, what you have is a source saying she is Jewish. We have sources that say there is climate change denial, that does not mean those sources dispute climate change (or even that climate change denial is a valid stance). Using this source to claim there is a valid dispute about her Jewishness is a violation of wp:fringe. Find an RS that says that she is not Jewish, if not there can be no valid policy objection to us saying she is (after all we (apparently) cannot include this "debate" as it is undue).Slatersteven (talk) 10:52, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Umm, no - " it's easy for white Jews to dismiss her as being not fully Jewish" - which makes it rather mainstream. In terms of policy, what is really relevant is WP:WEIGHT - we have multiple sources that refrain from calling her Jewish (sticking to formulations of Jewish ancestry and/or attributing this to Walker herself saying so), while on the other side some sources do state she is Jewish. RSes are not infalliable, and the former sources which use a rather convoluted formulation regarding Walker's Jewishness indicate that there is a possible WP:V problem. e.g BBC - "Ms Walker said she was of Jewish descent and an active anti-racist.", Jewish News - "Walker, who claims Jewish heritage, first offended the community", or the more explicit - Tablet - "In an effort to shield herself from criticism, Walker has claimed to have Jewish ancestry, as though racism is only racism depending on who expresses it. In fact, as any student of anti-Semitism knows, there is a long history of anti-Semitic Jews ...". We should avoid taking sides here in our voice.Icewhiz (talk) 13:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Saying something is easy does not mean it is mainstream, just not hard. It makes it clear this is a view held by "few unrepresentative and unelected "Jewish community leaders", that makes it clear it is not mainstream, as they are "unrepresentative", in other words they do not represent the wider Jewish community. I would point out not one mainstream Jewish sources has said she is not Jewish, just a couple of bloggers. And no there is not a validation problem, a source not saying X is not a course saying it is not X. We have multiple RS saying she is Jewish, and none saying she is not. So yes we can validate the claim she is Jewish. Frankly this is getting to the stage of tendentious editing now.Slatersteven (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

My reading of Vice News differs. Regardless, Yair Rosenberg, who is not a blogger, writing at Tablet Magazine - which is not a blog, says "In an effort to shield herself from criticism, Walker has claimed to have Jewish ancestry, as though racism is only racism depending on who expresses it. In fact, as any student of anti-Semitism knows, there is a long history of anti-Semitic Jews ...".Tablet Icewhiz (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

So yet again a soiuce that does not say she is not Jewish, only that she has claimed to be. And how does "few unrepresentative and unelected "Jewish community leaders" not mean this is not a main stream view?Slatersteven (talk) 09:57, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

In 2008, in her own family memoir (not a work of fiction), she wrote of herself that in May 1962 - "On Thursday I had to go to church to give my Confession before I have my First Communion. Father Fagan says this will be the most important week of my life.Pilgrim State - as well as a number of other church activities. The act of First Communion is generally incompatible with being a Jew (a word (as well as Jewish, Synagogue) missing entirely from the memoir). Should we include this in the article? it passes WP:V. The simpler solution here is avoiding the question all together (as it is questioned by some), and say that she has Jewish and Jamaican ancestry.Icewhiz (talk) 10:34, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Generally does not mean always, so now its wp:or (and wp:synth as well) as well. Also (as I understand it) you can stop being a Jews and then become one again, there is no Jewish concept of excommunication. So the fact she was at one time catholic does not prevent her having been (or now being) a Jew). And again if she is not in actuality a Jew why has no RS, why has no major Jewish figure said she is not, why is it that only a few bloggers say it? There is not policy based reason for excluding this, nor is there any policy based reason we have to give the view she is not equal weight, rs have said she is Jewish, no RS have said she is not.Slatersteven (talk) 12:19, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Some sources generally considered to be RS have said "Jewish". Others have said "claims to be Jewish"/"says she is Jewish". Yet others have said "of Jewish ancestry". The solution, generally, when different sources use different formulations for the same issue is to follow the one with most weight and without WP:V issues (and in this case - sources refraining from use of the direct "Jewish" indicate there is an issue). Icewhiz (talk) 12:35, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Where does it say that, I can see it talks about disagreement (I.e. sources contradicting themselves) not where they say something slightly different but not contradictory.Slatersteven (talk) 12:42, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

[EC] Some comments:

Walker herself says that she has Jewish ancestry on her mother's side and clearly self-identifies as ethnically Jewish (and black). I suspect that if it was looked into it would be found that how people self-identify is significant as far as BLPs are concerned.

In the same piece, Walker also talks about evidence of a campaign against her and appears to make an allusion to the Tablet article linked to by Icewhiz. In light of that, that article effectively becomes a primary source and should be treated that way.

We have an article on Sheldon Aldelson, whose mother was not Jewish (which didn't stop the Jerusalem Post from listing him as no.16 on its list of the 50 most influential Jews). The article is included in the category Jewish American philanthropists, which is itself a sub-category of American Jews and, eventually, Jews. Would the editors making a fuss about Walker's ethnicity also make a fuss about Adelson's categorisation, even though his maternal ancestry, unlike Walker's, is undisputably non-Jewish?

    ←   ZScarpia   12:50, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Black

Is she really "black," and does this belong in the first sentence? This doesn't appear to be reliably sourced. We have a sentence in the body saying she's "of mixed Jewish and African descent"--that does not equal "black." R2 (bleep) 18:05, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

As it happens, as black, really, as Barack Obama, "the first black president of the US".     ←   ZScarpia   23:10, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm actually looking for a reliable source, not for other editors' say-so. --R2 (bleep) 23:54, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

In my opinion the Lead should stick to the "mixed descent" formulation, though perhaps "Jewish" should be expanded into "Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jewish". Something else I would change is that the Lead mentions The Lynching of Jackie Walker and accusations of antisemitism without, as it should, as the former arose from the latter, linking them.     ←   ZScarpia   11:08, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

We do in fact already have a n umber of sources saying she has black parentage (as one puts it "Jackie Walker is of mixed heritage, both Jewish and black Jamaican").Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

"As a result she was the only black child in her primary school. 'You smell, wog!'..." [17].Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Jackie Walker and the undrcover Al Jazeera investigation into the UK Israel lobby

Al Jazeera articles mentioning Jackie Walker in relation to the investigation into the UK Israel lobby: [18][19].

Al Jazeera opinion piece by Jackie Walker published round about the time of the broadcast of the results of the investigation (and which is already cited in the article): [20]

Electronic Intifada commentary: [21][22][23].

By contrast, Jewish Chronicle opinion pieces by Marcus Dysch: [24][25].

    ←   ZScarpia   16:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Parents' ethnic backgrounds

We have the following sentence, "Her father was a Russian Ashkenazi Jew and her mother was a black Jamaican Sephardi Jew.," supported by this source:

• "Who's behind the momentous sacking of Jackie Walker?". Camden: Camden New Journal. 7 October 2016. Retrieved 9 November 2018. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

The source doesn't seem reliable. It's appears to be an unsigned opinion column. Moreover, the apparent author, John Gulliver, literally does not exist on the Internet outside of the camdennewjournal.com and its affiliates' websites. I suspect it's a pseudonym. We need much better sourcing for this sort of content. R2 (bleep) 18:15, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Reads like an opinion in a dubious source. Per JC In the show, Ms Walker plays a number of characters including her late Jewish communist father arriving as a refugee in New York, around 1918, and her late Jamaican-born mother, a black civil rights activist, who, she said, the CIA had “in their sights” in the 1950s..Icewhiz (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

It is archived so hard to tell if is an Op-ed or not. The RS issue may be different, but this might need wider input.Slatersteven (talk) 14:57, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Should we take Camden New Journal to the Reliable Source Noticeboard? BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:27, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I would say yes, I am not sure if it would pass or not.Slatersteven (talk) 12:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Done:@ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Camden_New_Journal_as_a_source_for_ethnicity . BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:16, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I see it's been reverted, but I actually replaced the source with a more detailed account of her ancestry from Walker herself, since in this case I think an attributed (and more detailed) autobiographical description of someone's ancestry is better than a less detailed unattributed one from a local newspaper opinion writer presumably relying on Walker's testimony anyway. Since Dorothy Brown was described as being a practising Roman Catholic (complete with documentation) born in Jamaica in Walker's book, characterising her solely as a "black Sephardic Jew" because a distant ancestor was apparently a Jew from Portugal is something of a stretch, and the Jewish ancestor story is described in more detail in the same paragraph anyway. FWIW I've read the Camden New Journal before: it's a pretty standard local rag and there's no reason to assume they fact check ancestry claims in opinion pieces. I don't think we need a general ruling on its suitability to argue that particular article is not authoritative. Dtellett (talk) 20:54, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• Memoir is the key word here. A memoir is reliable for the writer's remembrance of things past. Memoirs are not reliable sources for facts. As far as I can tell, The sole source for Walker's maternal Sephardi Jewish ancestry is her own memoir. And the several interviews and articles that echo the memoir. We can cite Walker's memory of family tradition of a long-ago Sephardi ancestor. But unless a news article indicates that it has verified the memory, we do not cite it as fact.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:31, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Request for comment can we say Jackie Walker is Jewish

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Can we say that Jackie Walker is Jewish?Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

As per this edit [[26]].Slatersteven (talk) 13:18, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. Came here from FT/N. This seems a bit of an unhelpful RfC, with not even a source mentioned? Alexbrn (talk) 13:20, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

We do have a long talk page thread over this, and I was trying to keep this ultra neutral (thus not putting in anything that might be taking sides).Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Here is one source (there are more in the talk page thread above) [[27]] "... after Jackie Walker, who is Jewish,...".Slatersteven (talk) 13:24, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• says she is of Jewish background - per "Ms Walker, who states that she is of Jewish background herself"[28], "Walker, who claims Jewish heritage, first offended..."[29], "Walker, born to a Jamaican mother and a Russian Jewish father,..."[30], In an effort to shield herself from criticism, Walker has claimed to have Jewish ancestry, as though...[31]. Not all sources are in agreement she is Jewish - as evident in the avoidance of use of the straight up label. It seems all sources agree that she has said she is Jewish or has a Jewish background - which is a simple description that is factually accurate. In the past, she self identified otherwise - e.g. "On Thursday I had to go to church to give my Confession before I have my First Communion. Father Fagan says this will be the most important week of my life.Pilgrim State - her 2008 book mentions her Catholic upbringing extensively, but not anything about Judaism. Icewhiz (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Pilgrim State “is the story of generations of strong women, a fictionalised autobiography” according to your Google books link. It’s a work of fiction. Sure this author is the same person as Jackie Walker? - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:24, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

@LuckyLouie: - Per the guardian - The organiser of the protest is 62-year-old Jackie Walker, who came to the UK from Jamaica and moved to nearby Broadstairs from London six years ago. An author, whose book Pilgrim State tells the story of her mother’s mental illness and her family’s grim treatment at the hands of social services, she has a long history as a political activist. - so yes, Jackie Walker is Jacqueline Walker. I don't see where you get the "fictionalised autobiography" (it do see that in a reader review on amazon - but that's not a source) - I do see it described as a memoir on the jacket and per this guardian review it is also a memoir. Icewhiz (talk) 07:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

" The book, which is part memoir, part novelisation of Dorothy Brown's life and the 11 years of Jacqueline's childhood" [32].Slatersteven (talk) 10:01, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment if she says she's Jewish, she is. Self-identification should be the only criterion for being considered a member of a faith. If she does not says she's Jewish but says she is of Jewish descent, we report it the same. Simonm223 (talk) 14:17, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

  Being Jewish is more complex than self-identification - as are other ethnic/religious groups - e.g. we don't state Rachel Dolezal is Black/African-American despite her self-identification. Icewhiz (talk) 16:15, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Is it more complex then being Presbyterian or Church of England?Slatersteven (talk) 15:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, in terms of being recognized (and identified) as a Jew. The same is true of other ethno-religious groups - e.g. Druze. In most modern 21st Christian churches (there are exceptions) - self-identification is sufficient - but that doesn't mean that "it works that way" in other religions.Icewhiz (talk) 15:31, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I think we have to go with self-identification. Comparing it to Rachel Dolezal is pretty out there - what you are talking about (recognition of one's self identity by other members of an "ethno-religious" group) is not the same as race. With something this murky we have to admit that there are different definitions of what it means to be Jewish. Any argument along the lines of 'Judaism is not always a religion so self-identification is insufficient' is pretty incongruent when the non-acceptence stems from the involvement of formal religious institutions in whether or not a religious conversion is "accepted".Seraphim System ^(talk) 15:10, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Nothing wrong with the version which omits mention in the lead, but goes into detail in "Background" section. It's inappropriate and kind of creepy to highlight Jewishness in the lead sentence of bios (e.g. "Jewish comedian Sara Silverman...Jewish statesman Benjamin Disraeli..."). If at some point, it was decided to expand the lead to summarize all topics covered in the article, then it would be appropriate to include this detail in context. However as the article is relatively short, I don't see the need at present. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:14, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
• Where is the source? As Simonm223 says, we can say she is Jewish if she self-identifies as Jewish. I don't see that in the sources -- but if it's there then sure. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:48, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

"Walker, who claims Jewish heritage, first offended..."[33] So maybe then it should be "and Jewish heritage "after all we consider the rest of her ancestry worthy of note).Slatersteven (talk) 16:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

"Ms Walker, who says she and her partner are Jewish," [34].Slatersteven (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

What we normally want is a direct quote. My view is that the words of the reporters are not sufficient to constitute self-identification.Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:52, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I would think [the BBC would have enough of a reputation for fact checking to satisfy WP:RS. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Agree that we don't need to mention it in the lead - can we say something which doesn't rely on her family history, e.g. she follows the Jewish religion or similar. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 16:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Being Jewish is not just a religion, it's a cultural and ethnic identification. Many Jews aren't religious at all. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• No. I'd want to see better sourcing before stating that she is Jewish, point blank in our own voice. Most of these sources have said she says she has Jewish heritage. That's quite different from saying she's Jewish. I wouldn't stray from what the majority of sources are saying. R2 (bleep) 17:59, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Vote changed to Yes. The sources listed by RevertBob below have convinced me. R2 (bleep) 07:59, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• Yes - Jews are an ethno-religious group and one can be ethnically and/or culturally Jewish as well as a religious Jew. However, that's irrelevant because Wikipedia follows what RS says rather than following OR or SYNTH.

As per, User:Slatersteven and User:Bobfrombrockley there are plenty of the most widely used sources in Wikipedia which support this: BBC "Ms Walker, who is Jewish herself,"[35]) and "Jackie Walker, who is Jewish" [36]), The Guardian "Walker, who along with her partner is Jewish,"[37]), The Telegraph "Ms Walker, who is Jewish"[38]), Jewish News, a British Jewish newspaper "Walker, who is Jewish,"[39]), and the Tablet, an American Jewish magazine "Walker herself is Jewish"[40]) or the Forward, another American jewish magazine "Jackie Walker, an activist who defines as being both black and Jewish"[41]). Walker identifies as Jewish and the majority of RS are saying that she's Jewish. RevertBob (talk) 22:05, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

The usual way of perceiving that WP:BLPCAT is satisfied is to see a direct quote. It's not enough to have a reporter say that she identifies as Jewish; she should be quoted as saying it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Except that Jewishness is not limited to a religious belief. WP:BLPCAT doesn't require ethnicity to be self identified. And since when doesn't Wikipedia trust reporters? - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Talking about what she has claimed, virtually the definition of a third party RS (as well as a very good working definition of "not primary").Slatersteven (talk) 14:08, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment "This was how I have Jewish heritage on both sides." so here she does not directly say she is Jewishm, just that she has Jewish heritage form both sides of her parentage, [[42]].Slatersteven (talk) 13:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Direct statements from Walker: "I am Jewish."..."Yes. I certainly wouldn't call myself an anti-Semite as I am Jewish and my partner is Jewish." (I'm not sure what's going on at this article. Why is there so much wikilawyering to prevent her from being identified in the article as a Jew?) - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Another direct statment from Walker: ("I have been spat at and beaten by racists. I have marched against the fascists, defended minorities, am of Jewish descent as is my partner - Jackie Walker" [43]). Certainly conclusive enough for inclusion on the page. RevertBob (talk) 22:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• No unless we are going to say in the leads of articles that the subjects are Presbyterian or Church of England etc. In the body of the aritcle yes, but far too much detail is given at the present time. (Summoned by bot) Coretheapple (talk) 14:29, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Its not analogous.Slatersteven (talk) 15:53, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment We also have this [44].Slatersteven (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot) Is her Jewish ancestry relevant to her notability? If so, it would be in line with MOS:BLPLEAD to include it in the lead. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:58, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
• No The closest we can come is that she identifies as being ethnically Jewish, but has been accused of anti-Semitism. The Al Jazeera source only supports that much at most. Her dad was a Jewish atheist, and under Jewish law, ethnicity is enate. She is certainly not Jewish by religion. The bit about a distant maternal Jewish connection is anecdotal at best, alas. Collect (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

What about the fact that BBC, BBC, The Guardian, The Telegraph sources all state Walker "is Jewish" without any mention of her ethnicity or religion?

No evidence has been presented that her father was a Jewish atheist. However, using Jewish law to deny self-identity and go against what the majority of RS state is OR and SYNTH. If RS says she is Jewish, then we have to say that too. If we believe that the RSs are wrong, then it doesn't matter because that would be SYNTH and OR. RevertBob (talk) 00:28, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment In light of the fact that there is come controversy as to her status as both an ethic and an observant jew perhaps the solution is to say she claims Jewish descent. There are a lot of reliable sources mentioned on this page that can substantiate that. I agree it is worth mentioning this in the lead as her claimed Jewishness is directly relevant to her notability. Morgan Leigh | Talk 22:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Where is the controversy of her status as an ethnic or religious Jew? If there are RSs which support this then this can be considered but nobody has supplied anything so far. Also, the word claim should be avoided. RevertBob (talk) 00:28, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, if the sources mention it and treat it as important, then we need to as well; and we need to state it as fact if we have sources doing so. Most of the objections above delve into WP:SYNTH. The identifies as being... or she claims... construction is specifically unacceptable per WP:ALLEGED / WP:CLAIM - it implies doubt that we have no sources to back up. Wording it like that would actually be worse than not mentioning it at all. Who is a Jew? may be a complicated question, but for us, when writing biographies, it's dead-easy - we reflect what the sources say about each individual, fullstop (with a requirement for higher-quality sources if we're going against someone's self-definition for WP:BLP reasons, but that's not an issue here because nobody has produced any sources disputing this at all, high-quality or otherwise.) If someone disagrees with what the sources say, they should write to them demanding corrections. --Aquillion (talk) 05:26, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
• No We cannot say that she is Jewish. Her father was Jewish, but it is not at all clear that she was reared as a Jew or ever identified with a Jewish community. MORE SIGNIFICANTLY, the sole source for the claim that her mother was Jewish is Walker's own assertion, in her memoir, that her mother descended from a Sephardi Jewish ancestor who arrived in the era of Christopher Columbus. What we can say is that she claims that her mother was of Jewish descent and that her father was Jewish. Reminds me of Elizabeth Warren, [[Julia Salazar]; the fact that Mom or Dad may or may not have had a Cherokee or Jewish ancestor does not make you a Cherokee or a Jew. (DYK: Queen Elizabeth II claims a Jewish ancestor King David; it doesn't make the Queen Jewish.) E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The BBC, BBC, The Guardian, The Telegraph sources all state Walker "is Jewish". RevertBob (talk) 21:01, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• We can, of course, say that Walker regards herself as Jewish - best to use a direct quote, if possible. What we cannot do is make statements in the encyclopedia's voice that she "is" Jewish, or that her father, or maternal ancestors were Jewish, based solely on the fact that Walker says that it is so. We can, of course, report what Walker claims about her parents and ancestry, as long as we describe these assertions as assertions. We may well be able to find an INDEPENDENT, RS establishing that her father was a Jew, in which case we can state as fact in Wikipedia's voice with solid sourcing. The maternal claim of ancestry dating back half a millennia is harder to prove, but it may be possible. But until somebody reliable brings reliable evidence, it is a claim, not a fact. E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:24, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

• There is not a single INDEPENDENT, RS source on the page about ancestry Article cites the Jewish Chronicle to establish that Walker's claim of Jewishness, but the Chronicle is very specific in stating that it is describing "her one-woman Edinburgh Fringe Show, The Lynching, based on her emails, diaries and family history," "In the show, Ms Walker plays a number of characters including her late Jewish communist father arriving as a refugee in New York, around 1918," "she adopted the character of her mother - complete with a Jamaican accent - to put the case for the defence. She says: Now you have heard a lot of things and it sounds bad. The question I want you to ask is why is this happening. Is Jackie Walker a Jew-hater, is she a racist? Because that is what antisemitism is. Or is something else going on. First, she said Jews financed the slave trade. That sounds very bad, especially when you know it is not true - not as a general statement ... but hold on, let's have a look at what Jackie actually said. She said: 'Many Jews, my ancestors too, were the chief financiers of the slave trade. She's talking about her ancestors on her mother's side. I am descended from Jewish Portuguese people who came over to the West Indies in the days of Christopher Columbus - one of my ancestors got married to a Jewish man and converted... " These claims cannot be cited ot the Jewish Chronicle, except as claims made by Walker. Article cites the Algemeiner Journal: [45] to make a statement of fact: "Walker is of mixed Jewish and African descent.." We need a source that actually says that, because the Algemeinder only cites her one-woman play, then states "Walker has stated that she is of mixed Jewish and African descent." The Camden Journal gives no indication of having fact checked Walker's assertions about maternal Jewish ancestry. The citation to the Morning Star is to a review of the play; theatre reviewers do not check facts and they do not get fact checked. A theater reviewer for even the most reputable newspaper in the world is responsible for checking the names of the actors, author and director - NOT the facts as they are presented by the playwright. Ditto for theatre review in the Islington Tribune. Similarly, the "fact" cited to The Guardian is to a book review of Walker's memoir; not a reliable source for ancestry, although it can be used to describe her assertions about her ancestry. I do not claim to know anything about Walker's ancestry. But there is not a single WP:RS in the entire paragraph about her ancestry. All sources are useful only for describing Walker's family memories and assertions about her ancestry.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The Jewish Chronicle quotes "including her late Jewish communist father arriving as a refugee in New York, around 1918"[46]. This is stating that her father is a "Jewish communist" rather than Walker claiming to have a Jewish father. The New Statesman also quotes that she was born of a "Russian Jewish father[47]. RevertBob (talk) 22:55, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

What the Jewish Chronicle actually wrote is "In the show, Ms Walker plays a number of characters including her late Jewish communist father arriving as a refugee in New York, around 1918." The New Statesman gives no evidence of having verified Walker's claim that her father was Jewish.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:18, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Given that we are living in a moment when politicians and political activists do invent ethnic backgrounds for political purposes, and given that Walker has a clear political motivation for claiming to be Jewish, I think that we need a source that has verified her assertion. We can, of course, report that she says that Dad is Jewish. We cannot say that he is in the encyclopedia's voice without verification.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:18, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Yes: reliable sources appear to support the claim. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:41, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Can you specify which sources? Because, here's the thing, it is generally fine for a public figure to say "my grandparents came from Thailand," or "my mother's side of the family were Zoroastrian." Reporters take them at their word, as they have done with Walker's assertions about her mother and father having been Jewish. However, once a story is challenged, (cf. Rachel Dolezal; Julia Salazar; Elizabeth Warren,) it is no longer sufficient to merely accept the individual's statement about ancestry and ethnic background as fact. It becomes an assertion but cannot be treated as fact until it has been validated by an INDEPENDENT WP:RS. I have beaten the bushes and found no evidence that anyone - not Walker, not a journalist - has produced evidence (birth records, genealogy,) identifying her father and establishing his Jewishness, or demonstrating that her mother had either a Jewish identity or a Jewish ancestor. In Walker's case, our doubts on this are supported by the assertion that there is similarly no validation for claims that her mother was investigated for Communist ties by the CIA and deported for it; claims that her biological father was a Jewish Communist; or claims that both parents were Civil Rights activists. She makes these claims in the recent one-woman memoir The Lynching. Memoirs are not reliable sources for facts. If you have such sources, please share them. But until that point, these are assertions, family stories, not facts that can be written in Wikipedia's voice.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:23, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

In all of those cases the accusations were made by rather better sources then "just another blogger". No RS has seriously repeated these claims, and the only one that has repeated them dismisses the claims. What we have is multiple RS saying X, no one RS saying X is not true and one said that a few unrepresentative people have disputed it. It is a violation of undue to give equally weight to what the only RS that talks about it says (in effect) are not representative of the wiser view.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

We have RS assertions that she is a fabulist MP accuses Jackie Walker of ‘fantasy’ over claim she is being targeted by Israel. She is, of course, notorious for writing really big whoppers: antisemitic falsehoods about control of the slave trade. I have no knowledge of who her ancestors were, but her track record on facts, especially her track record of outrageously nonfactual statements about Jews, is such that, while we can certainly say that she identifies as Jewish and claims that her ancestors on both that mother's and father's side of the family were Jewish, we cannot say this in Wikipedia's voice as fact until somebody validates it. At present, she does not appear to be important enough for a genealogist or journalist to take the trouble to do the research. I suggest that we simply state what we can reliably source: her assertions about ancestry. E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:51, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Particularly since we do have a RS saying that: "In an effort to shield herself from criticism, Walker has claimed to have Jewish ancestry"[48] - the context of this claim by Walker surfacing has been tied to criticism that remarks made were antisemitic. Icewhiz (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Despite the fact that the same publication along with several other RS states: "Walker herself is Jewish"[49]. RevertBob (talk) 19:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

In a very brief blurb, probably not vetted beyond a cursory check (as such things are not vetted in depth). Fact is - INDEPTH sources on (heck - 1 paragraph) that discuss her ancestry are more nuanced and complex. Icewhiz (talk) 20:00, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

We have more RS saying she is, if she is not I suggest you tell the RS to correct this. But we go with what RS say, we do not second guess RS.I also note that Tablet mag does not say she is not Jewish, and in fact goes on to say "In fact, as any student of antisemitism knows, there is a long history of anti-Semitic Jews, including in Britain," So it does not in fact challenge the idea she is not Jewish, just that her being Jewish would not stop here being antisemitic (it even names another antisemitic Jew, hardly a damming example of her claim being false). Yet again another sources that does not actually challenge her Jewishness. So I still say a few bloggers challenging it, and not one RS challenging it means it is undue to give them as much weight as RS. But as we are second guessing RS, why is it that not one RS have claimed she is not Jewish, why (in fact) is the only example of this claim she is not Jewish being covered (only) from a source that supports her claim? Why is it that not one RS has done an in depth analysis challenging her Jewishness? Why is it a few bloggers carry more weight then half a dozen very reputable RS?Slatersteven (talk) 20:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

This is about the reliability of memoir and family stories. Political activists do make this sort of identity claim, when they are notable, say, Jimmie Durham, it gets looked into. Responsible people, say, Elizabeth Warren, hire someone to verify the family lore. The Guardian is aware that some claims in Walker's memoir are unverified because they wrote them up this way: "The two reasons given for Mrs Brown's deportation were that she had suffered a mental disturbance and 'failed to show good moral character', although much later the family discovered the existence of CIA files, never made public, possibly relating to her political campaigning" and "By 1954, after a spell working in the desegregation movement, she had embarked on an affair with a rich Jewish man, which had resulted in the birth of Jackie.... 'I remember my father vaguely,' Walker adds. 'He paid for my mother to give birth to me in hospital in Manhattan. But I've never tried to find him.'" Exactly how or what Jackie Walker actually "remembers" about that hospital bill or even whether she ever knew her father's name unclear; she was born in New York 1954, her mother was deported in 1956. Take a look also at Ward Churchill#Ward Churchill, Walker isn't notable enough to have had the kind of scrutiny Churchill got, which is why I think we should only state what we can verify: things she has said about who Dad and Mom were, sourced, as The Guardian did, to Walker.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Its not only the Guardian and again we do not second guess RS. Nor do we know what other checks RS may have carried out. What we have is multiple RS saying it, and not one contesting it.Slatersteven (talk) 13:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Speedy close RFC question is clearly biased, asking for "permission" to do something the questioner clearly wants to. Per WP:RFC, non-neutral RFC questions are not allowed (they are a fairly strong form of canvassing), and Slatersteven (talk · contribs) should be trouted for this, especially given his other recently-demonstrated problems on this front. No comment one way or the other on whether the article should actually describe her as Jewish, but this farcical RFC needs to stop. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

"Should this article say in the lead that John Smith was a contender for the Pulitzer Prize?"" how does "can we say Jackie Walker is Jewish" not conform to that style?Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I was addressing a direct accusation made against me (specifically the wording of this RFC is biased).Slatersteven (talk) 16:34, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• You have now made three top-level comments on this WP:RFC, two of them fairly massive paragraphs, all essentially saying the same thing. You're hardly in a position to throw around WP:BLUDGEON accusations against others. --Aquillion (talk) 19:17, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Let's not lose track of the fact that in her first published work, her memoir Pilgrim State, she makes it very clear that she grew up Catholic. Claims of Jewish background came later.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Many WP:RS discuss her with statements like the one Slatersteven cites above "Ms Walker, who says she and her partner are Jewish," [50]. A writer for the London Jewish Chronicle, a mainstream source that can be presumed to be attuned to the nuances here, wrote: "Ms Walker, who states that she is of Jewish background herself". that seems like the correct phrasing to use.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Yet none of those sources are contrary to any other RS either: BBC "Ms Walker, who is Jewish herself," and "Jackie Walker, who is Jewish", The Guardian "Walker, who along with her partner is Jewish,", and The Telegraph "Ms Walker, who is Jewish". Also, it would be undue to give more weight to local sources over national sources. RevertBob (talk) 20:37, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

WE can certainly state, in Wikipedia's voice, that Ms. Walker identifies as Jewish.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:58, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

No, unless we have sources unambiguously doubting it, we cannot. Per WP:NPOV, we have to state facts as facts, and opinions as opinions; saying she "identifies" as Jewish, when we have plenty of reliable sources establishing as fact that she is Jewish, clearly violates WP:CLAIM. --Aquillion (talk) 19:11, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Sources unambiguously doubting it have been produced above, including claims that she adopted Jewish identity only as a defence against accusations of anti-Semitism. As far as facts go it appears she is unambiguously not Jewish through the traditional matrilineal line definition, her father probably was Jewish which would be enough for other definitions and afaik she hasn't attested to being religiously observant. I don't think it's Wikipedia's role to cast aspersions about her Jewishness, but I also think "identifies as Jewish" is neutral, wording in line with that frequently used by reliable sources not a WP:CLAIM violation and don't think it's Wikipedia's role to resolve the dispute of definition and fact in her favour. Dtellett (talk) 17:56, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• Yes: It's silly that such an RFC is even stated. No, according to Jewish religious law, Halakah, she is not a Jew but who gives a crap? By having a Jewish father she would be deemed a Jew under the Law of Return "for the purposes of this law" and allowed to immigrate to Israel. According to reform Judaism, for which patrilineal descent is sufficient she would be a Jew [51]. That she is a Catholic does not not make her a Jew, see f.e Oswald Rufeisen. Most importantly of course is that she thinks she is a Jew which of course is something that should be respected! ImTheIP (talk) 04:25, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Yes - RSs describe her as Jewish, without equivocation. Readers are sufficiently sophisticated to know that one can be ethnically and/or culturally Jewish without being a practising, religious Jew. Wikipedia follows what RSs say rather than following OR or SYNTH. If any notable sources question her Jewishness - that along with their reasons can be included. Her Jewishness clearly is relevant to her notability, since RS mention it. Pincrete (talk) 20:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I would remind eds this is about discussion of the article, not others users actions. If you have a complaint about a users actions take it to their talk page or ANI.Slatersteven (talk) 10:16, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• No -- there are sources that assert she is Jewish -- but none of them quote her identifying as Jewish. At most, she is quoted as asserting Jewish background, which is of course not the same thing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:36, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Except for the direct statements from Walker where she identifies as being Jewish: "...I am Jewish and my partner is Jewish." BBC and "I have been spat at and beaten by racists. I have marched against the fascists, defended minorities, am of Jewish descent as is my partner - Jackie Walker" Kent Online which were provided to you above. RevertBob (talk) 22:39, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

• Yes (Summoned by bot) Multiple RS say she "is Jewish." We don't require bio subjects to confirm facts stated about them by multiple RS. Does "Jewish" belong in the lead? A different question. I don't see RS claiming her Jewish identity was important to her except as a response to claims she was antisemitic. Therefore I don't think "Jewish" belongs in the lead. HouseOfChange (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bomb threat made screening The Political Lynching of Jackie Walker during the Labour Conference in Liverpool, 2018

Other material on the bomb threat made while screening The Political Lynching of Jackie Walker during a JVL event on the fringes of the Labour Conference in Liverpool, 2018:

• [52](reprint: [53])
• [54]
• [55]
• [56]
• [57]

A second bomb threat against a pro-Palestinian event during the Labour Conference in Liverpool: [58]

    ←   ZScarpia   16:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I would say the MS and Guardian are the only RSs there, of which the Guardian would be the stronger. Incident seems due and verifiable. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Unsure if this is significant or not.Slatersteven (talk) 16:05, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Personally, based on the type of organisation it is, I'd say that Middle East Eye is as reliable as Tablet Magazine, which is referred to elsewhere on this talkpage.     ←   ZScarpia   14:06, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

The Morning Star is also RS as per the outcome of this RfC. RevertBob (talk) 15:40, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

"Labour expulsion hearing set for anti-Zionist Jackie Walker"

Electronic Intifada - Asa Winstanley - Labour expulsion hearing set for anti-Zionist Jackie Walke, 05 February 2019.     ←   ZScarpia   11:56, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

IP editor 108.48.100.114's edits.

IP editor 108.48.100.114 has made a fairly large number of edits to the article recently.[59][60][61]

In this edit, 108.48.100.114 removed the description of Walker as Jewish from the Lead, leaving the edit comment, "It is not the policy of Wikipedia to mention people being allegedly Jewish in the summary at the top of the page." That may be a practice rather than a policy, but here there are strong reasons for the mention, therefore I have restored it.

108.48.100.114 changed the text which originally read, "Several of Walker's defenders are themselves Jewish, such as Haim Bresheeth (es), Moshe Machover, and linguist and activist Noam Chomsky," to, "At least one of Walker's defenders is Jewish, the linguist and activist Noam Chomsky," objecting, rather too legalistically, that there is no source evidence that the first two people mentioned are Jewish. If no sources actually point out that some of Walker's defenders are Jewish, it is, in any case, original research to make that argument, so even the rump left should probably be deleted. For the sake of providing source evidence, though, as far as Machover, who was born in Tel Aviv, is concerned, this Jewish Chronicle article lists him among a group of "dozens of Jewish anti-Israel activists".

Some of 108.48.100.114's edits propably touch the ARBPIA area of Wikipedia, which, as a non- extended-confirmed user with less than the required number of edits, he or she is not permitted to touch.

    ←   ZScarpia   11:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

In among a new group of edits, 108.48.100.114 again removed a referece to the Israel Advocacy Movement, changing the text from "in May 2016, the Israel Advocacy Movement allegedly hacked Walker's Facebook account" to "in May 2016, Jackie Walker's Facebook account included." I'm pretty sure that the material edited falls under WP:ARBPIA, which means that, not being extended-confirmed, 108.48.100.114 is not allowed to edit it. The edit comment left was: "The claim that the "Israel Advocacy Movement" hacked Jackie Walker's account has never been found to be true in a court of law. It is potentially libelous. It MUST be removed." This is silly on a number of levels. The text stated that the Advocacy Movement "allegedly" hacked the account. That is a statement of fact which is not libelous in any way. And obviously we don't need court cases to show something is true before we can state them.     ←   ZScarpia   10:49, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

References