Talk:Jimi Hendrix

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RfC: Adding acid rock as a genre in the article's infobox (second discussion)[edit]

There is no consensus to add "acid rock" to the genre field of the infobox. Findings: the issue does not revolve around its suitability (it is not incorrect to say that Hendrix did acid rock), but rather the appropriate number of genres to list in the infobox. A significant part of the discussion finds that listing too many genres defeats the purpose of a summary. The case is made that adding more genres at this point - more than the four we have - rather than changing them - is not helpful as a summary. Non-admin, Riggr Mortis (talk) 16:43, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the infobox include acid rock in its genre parameter? The previous RfC was closed with votes split evenly and no consensus determined, although the closer recommended opening another RfC to include a broader poll of editors. Please keep in mind the Jimi Hendrix Experience article includes "acid rock" in the infobox, with the Chris Potash source below cited. Many sources say acid rock is a style Jimi Hendrix played or was known for, some of which are... Dan56 (talk) 01:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Potash, Chris, ed. (1996). The Jimi Hendrix Companion: Three Decades of Commentary. Schirmer Books. p. 66: "With drummer Mitch Mitchell and bassist Noel Redding [Jimi Hendrix] formed the Jimi Hendrix Experience. They were the first of the super high energy bands — the epitome of acid rock." ([1])
  • Davis, Ronald L. (1980). A History of Music in American Life: The modern era, 1920-present. R. E. Krieger Publishing Company. pg. 388: "By 1967 he had largely abandoned the blues in favor of a highly amplified acid rock." ([2])
  • Arnett, Jeffrey Jensen (1996) Metalheads: Heavy Metal Music And Adolescent Alienation. page 43: "Acid rock, played by performers such as Jimi Hendrix," ([3])
  • Time magazine (1974): "Bursting on the rock scene in 1967 at the height of the acid-rock movement, Hendrix was a sensation" ([4])
  • Music journalist and author Roger St. Pierre in Jimi Hendrix: recorded poems (1986), pg. 98: "Hendrix not only spearheaded the whole psychedelic acid rock movement, he..." ([5])
  • Writer Frank N. Magill: "Rock music was changed when the heavy psychedelic blues and guitar virtuousity of Jimi Hendrix became a huge success, creating 'acid rock' and pointing the way to fusion and heavy metal." ([6])
  • the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which is used in this article as a source, says "acid rock" was an influence along with blues and jazz ([7])
  • history professors Timothy P. Maga in this reference book on the 1960s and Neil A. Hamilton in his reference book on the 1970s both characterized Hendrix's unique sound as acid rock ([8], [9])
  • music professor James E. Perone ([10])
  • contemporary sources in Ebony and Jet magazine ([11], [12])
  • music critic Clinton Heylin, who called Hendrix one of the "uncrowned kings of acid rock" ([13])
  • According to writer and musician Michael Campbell, Hendrix was associated with acid rock ([14]).
  • HP Newquist wrote , "[Hendrix's] acid rock was appropriately frenetic" ([15]).
Votes
  • Support as the editor proposing this change. Dan56 (talk) 01:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, and similarly oppose all the other hairsplitting genres people try to cram into these infoboxes. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support provided that there is a referenced discussion in the article. Infoboxes are to be summaries of the article's content. Good work on sourcing the genre! Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose: I personally think that the current appearance of the infobox, with "psychedelic rock" as the first genre given, is sufficient; however, I would not be strongly or even moderately opposed to adding "acid rock" as well. Michael Barera (talk) 04:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: An infobox should present key points of an article without going into too much detail. The Hendrix article already includes four genres – the guideline genres for musician infoboxes states "Aim for generality ... and preferably use 2-4." Hendrix is one of the most written about 1960s rock musicians and is it easy to find sources for a wide range of genres, including pop, jazz rock, funk rock, funk, soul, etc. Although appropriate for discussion in the body of the article, they are not suitable for an infobox, because they don't represent Hendrix's overall body of work. It could be argued that psychedelic rock, hard rock, (and acid rock) are really just subgenres and that "rock" is a more appropriate genre (the Beatles FA includes two genres – pop and rock). The Jimi Hendrix Experience debut album uses a source (no author) who "credited Are You Experienced with introducing acid rock, classic rock, and the guitar aesthetic of heavy metal." It well-documented acid rock was introduced before AYE was recorded and before Hendrix began his rock career. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Ojorojo. --Richhoncho (talk) 22:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - if you go to the Wikipedia article Acid Rock there is only one artist pictured there. Yep, it's Jimi Hendrix. As I said, the last time, above, either put it in the infobox, or be wrong. Jusdafax 09:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - required per WP:DUE. Hendrix is closely associated with acid rock, perhaps more than any other. Yes, for influential artists, their genre list can get a little long; so be it. Deciding to leave off acid rock from Hendix just to keep the list arbitrarily short is just plain inaccurate. As long as WP identifies acid rock as a genre, Hendrix is in that. --A D Monroe III (talk) 17:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Either, but only one. As acid and psychedelic rock cover the same ground it would make sense to use one or the other, but not both as a general guide to the reader as to what style of music Hendrix played. Too many genres in the infobox and it starts to lose its purpose as a quick pocket guide. The research shown above is excellent, and such information could and should be incorporated into the article to give some flesh to the bones of the infobox. Currently there is no mention of acid rock in the article. Psychedelic rock is briefly mentioned. It would be worthwhile, having done the research, to put some detail into the article as to what style of music Hendrix was considered to have played. Both acid and psychedelic rock can be discussed in the article, where the similarities and differences can be shown in context. Simply putting the two genres in the box without explanation would serve to baffle readers rather than inform. If pushed to make a choice between psychedelic and acid, I would go for psychedelic rock as a quick Google search combined with some background reading suggests that psychedelic rock is used more often in association with Hendrix than acid rock. And I agree with Ojorojo that you can find references to many music genres in relation to Hendrix, especially jazz and soul. The proper place to put these genres is in the body of the article with reliably sourced explanations rather than in the infobox where they stand alone and unexplained, and so are open to edit warring. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:34, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Comment The previous RfC, which was open for five months, was closed with no consensus to include the phrase. Unless new information has come to light, this second RfC looks like an attempt to force through the desired change. It would be better to withdraw this RfC and wait for a while before bringing up this subject again. Ca2james (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • If there are elements of X, Y, or Z in a musicians playing, that should be discussed in context in the body. The genre in the infobox should be restricted only to what characterizes the musicians overall output—in which case, Hendrix should just be "rock". His roots were rock, all his playing was in some way rock, and his influence is on rock in general. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
According to whom does "rock" characterize his overall output? Not that I wouldn't agree, but is there a credible source that can verify that claim? Dan56 (talk) 02:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You mean, aside from all the sources that call him the "greatest rock guitarist"? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I see three copies of Rock Guitar For Dummies lol. Hendrix "acid rock" turned out more results, so I don't feel a search engine test proves anything. Dan56 (talk) 02:42, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Dan56, that was a very narrow search for "greatest rock guitarist", and turns up 1,800,000 hits on a plain Google search. It does not include the very many less precise permutations of it such as "rock guitarist", "rock musician", etc. Besides, "acid rock" is a subset of "rock"—in other words, all sources agree he was a rock musician, while a subset of those souurces are most specific and label him "acid rock". Compare this to, say, Black Flag (band), which is labeled "hardcore punk" because every source (that isn't deliberately being a dick) labels them "hardcore punk". Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:51, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't agree with the idea that "acid rock is a subset of rock—in other words, all sources agree he was a rock musician". They obviously felt a need to specific "acid rock" rather than "rock", so we don't know if they would agree with characterizing him as the latter; it doesn't seem they'd find it a sufficient characterization if they chose something more specific instead. Dan56 (talk) 03:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You're saying that any source that calls him "acid rock" is denying he was rock? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm saying a source that calls him "acid rock" can only support calling him "acid rock" (WP:NOR) Dan56 (talk) 03:44, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  1. You're saying it's OR to call "acid rock" a subgenre of "rock"?
    You're saying you'd consider sources that refer to a "hair splitting genre"? Dan56 (talk) 03:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
    Come again? I can't parse this sentence. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  2. You're aware of WP:SYNTH, aren't you? It would be a violation if some sources call him "acid rock", others "psychedilc rock", others "hard rock", "blues rock", etc, and thus come to the conclusion that he was acid rock, psychedelic rock, hard rock, and blues rock. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
    No, because genres are subjective interpretations of a creative work, and we'd just be listing any prominent interpretations of him and his work. According to WP:SUBJECTIVE, "Articles should provide an overview of the common interpretations of a creative work, preferably with citations to notable individuals holding that interpretation." IMO, "acid rock" qualifies as a common interpretation. Dan56 (talk) 03:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
    Look at the Black Flag (band) article. Notice how it talks about heavy metal, free jazz, etc in the body, while absolutely avoiding labeling the band as anything but hardcore punk? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
    Yes, I noticed. and...? Dan56 (talk) 09:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
    That's about the silliest place you could whip out OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. It's a solid example of how to do things right when you've got a band that's covered a lot of genre ground. You still haven't addressed the SYNTH violation, by the way, nor why the "World's Best Pop Musician" isn't listed as pop. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 20:54, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
According to you it's a sold example, and yes, I did respond to your comment about "SYNTH". Also, I do not understand why you're comparing one person from Mojo magazine to the numerous sources supporting "acid rock". Dan56 (talk) 05:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
According to you it's a sold example: and you've made no attempt to refute it.
It's a solid example of your preference. What would I be refuting? Dan56 (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I did respond to your comment about "SYNTH": with a broken sentence that cannot be parsed. My accusation of SYNTH as yet stands unchallenged.
I responded to your comment about "SYNTH" below it, not above it ([16]) Dan56 (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I do not understand why you're comparing one person from Mojo magazine to the numerous sources supporting "acid rock": you're saying that's the only source that's ever called Hendrix pop? Or any number of other genres, including heavy metal ("heavy metal was a term originated in a New York Times article reviewing a Jimi Hendrix" But that's just the New York Times, so ignore it). Meanwhile, Britannica calls him merely "rock". But OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and all that, right? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Once again, you're putting words in my mouth: "you're saying that's the only source that's ever called Hendrix pop?" You did in fact bring up one source saying he's a pop musician (Melody Maker, to correct myself) in a discussion where I have listed 12 or 13 supporting acid rock and then proceeded to say "then you'd better cram 'pop' in there, too" in response to one editor supporting acid rock's inclusion because of the number of sources supporting it. Dan56 (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Putting words in your mouth? What on earth was the point of that "one person" comment, then? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Since we're repeating the past: None of the sources discuss what specifically in Hendrix's musical style, playing, or songs is "acid rock". They only mention acid rock in passing and several of the sources are misrepresented. The R&R Hall of Fame lists acid rock among several influences: "Free jazz, Delta blues, acid rock, hardcore funk and the songwriting of Bob Dylan and the Beatles all figured as influences". Listing a musician's influences is not the same as characterizing him; no one suggests that Hendrix is a free jazz or Delta blues musician. Likewise, Newquist is addressing his guitar techniques; the sentence reads "His acid rock was appropriately frenetic; his ballad playing melodic and gentle". Again, a single element of style doesn't define the musician; no one calls him a balladeer. Campbell's discussion points to the musician's roots as more important to his identity than the drug "overlay": "both Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton, who were also associated with acid rock, had deep blues roots" (genres for the Eric Clapton article don't include acid rock). No genres for WP Hendrix song articles list acid rock.[17] If acid rock describes his music, then this would also be reflected in his songs. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You're applying a double-standard for the inclusion of "acid rock"; where are the sources cited in this article that "discuss what specifically in Hendrix's musical style, playing, or songs" is hard rock, psychedelic rock, or rhythm & blues? And I don't feel you actually checked the sources listed above. Roger St. Pierre's book, for example, says Hendrix "penned 'Purple Haze' to herald the advent of acid rock", while Ronald L. Davis wrote in A History of Music in American Life, that Hendrix by 1967 began playing "highly amplified acid rock. The Jimi Hendrix Experience became noted for huge gobs of chords, spiced with feedback, fuzz tone, and whatever other distortion Hendrix could muster." In the previous RfC, you cited one author (Campbell, who is actually one of the sources verifying Hendrix's association with acid rock) that believed Jefferson Airplane heralded acid rock and you also cited another author who believed the Grateful Dead did, so how do these different opinions constitute anything "well-documented" about what or who introduced acid rock? As for the song articles, I see some of the same names in the edit histories, including yours, so that may be a reason why. Dan56 (talk) 05:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
If we'd just stick to "rock" we wouldn't have to waste time with this hairsplitting. Acid rock is rock. Psychedelic rock is rock. Hard rock is rock. Heavy metal is rock. With "rock" we've got our bases covered. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd actually prefer that. If the valid subgenres cant all be included, better not even trying. Dan56 (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Here's the point about genres in the infobox: You can say "Hendrix was a rock musician." That's impossible to refute. On the other hand, "Hendrix was a rhythm-and-blues musician" would raise quite a few eyebrows. Apply that to each subgenre and you'll see what's apporpriate for the infobox. Rock itself is bastard genre—every rock musician's work incorporates a little X, Y, or Z, but that does not make them an "X, Y, or Z musician". It's an IS-A versus a HAS-A issue. Hendrix IS-A rock musician (therefore infobox appropriate), and HAS-A acid rock, psychedelic rock, blues, rythm & blues, hard rock, heavy metal, etc elements to his music. Clapton has "blues" in his infobox because he didn't merely incorporate blues into his music, he also played reams of straight blues (entire albums worth). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd support a broad "rock" genre. I don't understand Dan56, you have several GAs, but none related to Hendrix. Why are you slumming it with genres, etc.? Axis, Electric Ladyland deserve GA treatment. —Ojorojo (talk) 23:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"Slumming"? That's cute. But right, those articles do and I've contributed to them, and "acid rock" deserves a place in the infobox as much as the other genres currently listed. Dan56 (talk) 23:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Interesting discussion. As a musical outsider, I think psychedelic rock is sufficient to cover acid rock. I think that more than 3 musical genres defeats the purpose of summarizing a musician's style or major contributions in an infobox (unless that eclectic musical output is what makes them notable). Add commentary about acid rock into the body of the article. If in doubt, keep it simple and leave it with the listed genres.Lucas559 (talk) 15:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2015[edit]

Within the heading - Death, post-mortem, and burial in the second to last paragraph where it states "Dannemann later revealed that Hendrix had taken nine of her prescribed Vesparax sleeping tablets, 18 times the recommended dosage." the "her" should be changed to "his" since Jimmi Hendrix is a male. Corbec88 (talk) 13:35, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done Monika Dannemann is female and they were her tablets - Arjayay (talk) 14:18, 11 June 2015 (UTC)