Talk:Masoumeh Ebtekar

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academic career section[edit]

I think the academic career section is written as an advertisement. Espacially the plagiarism scandal is undermined —Preceding unsigned comment added by Windcatchers (talkcontribs) 20:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It seems an editor is trying to crowd out other less career-friendly information with filler on her seminars and journal articles. I have tried to trim it to a more appropriate length. Recent edits by an anon in Tehran (who could that be? :-)) have added to it. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"founding member of Islamic Iran Participation Front"?[edit]

"She is a founding member of the Iranian reformist political party, the Islamic Iran Participation Front."[citation needed] She does not appear in List of members of Islamic Iran Participation Front's Central Council or in the article on Islamic Iran Participation Front. --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

More mischief from anon[edit]

This edit removed the equal marks == == from the section heading Questions_about_plagiarism, thus removing this unflattering issue from the contents box and eliminating the bold lettering.

The editor was 94.182.9.34 about which WHOIS says:

inetnum:        94.182.0.0 - 94.182.63.255 
netname:        SHATEL-DSL 
descr:          SHATEL DSL Network 
country:        IR 
admin-c:         SHAD-RIPE 
tech-c:          SHTC-RIPE 
status:         ASSIGNED PA 
mnt-by:         MNT-RASANA 
source:         RIPE  Filtered 
role:           SHATEL Network Operation Center - Administration 
address:        Arya Rasana Tadbir Co. 
address:         2  Elahieh Alley  Shariati Ave.  Sadr Bridge 
address:        Tehran  Iran  1914733444 
phone:          98 21 2261 2601 
fax-no:         98 21 2261 2602 
abuse-mailbox:  abuse@rasana.net

Along with that, the anon added more filler - a subsection called Women as Presidential Candidates "... news reports indicated that Dr. Ebtekar may stand for candidacy ..." in 2009. When you check the citation news report Ebtekar does not rule out presidential candidacy. tehran times, April 14, 2009 you find that all Ebtekar has said was she hasn't ruled out running for president. A google search finds zero buzz about her being a candidate. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent reverts[edit]

Why were these edits made without any discussion? (They are an almost wholesale revertion (by editor Kneejuan) of my edits back to those of the anonymous poster from Iran.)

Ebtekar's name[edit]

The following was deleted: Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she changed her public name sometime after the hostage crisis to Massoumeh. and replaced with an earlier edit from an anonymous editor with the Tehran address: Like many Iranian girls, she has two names, she was named Massoumeh at birth, but known as Niloufar among friends and relatives

Problem[edit]

  • Whether many Iranian girls or girls from any country have two names is not really the crucial information you want in the WP:lead. What is noteable is the fact that the name Ebtekar used publicly changed from one for which she was known all over the world at one time (as public spokesperson for the 1979-81 hostage takers), to another name, and further that she asked the reporter who uncovered this fact not to make it public.
  • Like many Iranian girls, she has two names, she was named Massoumeh at birth, but known as Niloufar among friends and relatives, is not really supported by the citation given "A Brief History of Global Engagement at the University of Pennsylvania". Archives.upenn.edu. Retrieved 2008-11-18. </ref> which says only Niloofar Ebtekar, Mary's real name, had lived for three years in the Philadelphia .... nothing about two names, or being named Massoumeh at birth. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I Propose[edit]

that the Like many Iranian girls, she has two names, she was named Massoumeh at birth, but known as Niloufar among friends and relatives be put in the Masoumeh Ebtekar#Education and family section, and edits about Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she changed her public name sometime after the hostage crisis to Massoumeh. be restore. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Why? Most of the sources I have seen, indicate that she's still called Noloufar, her official name has always been Masoumeh. So there was never a change of name, only one source makes such claim. --KneeJuan (talk) 16:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
The point is she was known as Niloufar during the hostage crisis and called herself Massoumeh when she appeared in the international public eye again some years later during her political career as VP. There is one source that scooped it and talked about it (Elaine Sciolino), but the only quibbling is whether she changed her name or always legally had that name (Massoumeh) but didn't use it before. We can change the wording to Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she began using Massoumeh as her first name sometime after the hostage crisis, if you don't like the phrase "changed her public name." --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Memoir[edit]

This was also added In her recently published memoirs,she has however repeatedly referred to her cordial and official contacts with not only Western Ambassadors but European Ministers and Presidents as well.[1]

and a trimmed down

Ebtekar has published a memoir of her eight years as Vice President of Iran, entitled the Grapes of Shahrivar. It was released on May 3, 2009.[1]

was replaced by the original (also from the Tehran adress) Dr.Ebtekar published her memoirs of the 8 years she served as the first woman Vice President of Iran, on May 3, 2009.[2]/ Entitled the Grapes of Shahrivar and published by Etelleat Newpaper Publishing House, the memoirs refer to the events of the reforms period in Iran. The book launch ceremony was held in Baran Foundation the foundation established by President Khatami to disseminate the managerial experiences of the reform government.

Problem[edit]

Blogs by the subject of the story aren't really allowed as sources. WP:Sources --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:27, 13 May 2009 (UTC)--BoogaLouie (talk) 16:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

That's not the case, please see WP:SELFPUB. --KneeJuan (talk) 16:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:SELFPUB says it may be used if the material is not unduly self-serving;
it does not involve claims about third parties;
it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
the article is not based primarily on such sources.
the edit that uses her blog as a source says:
In her recently published memoirs,she has however repeatedly referred to her cordial and official contacts with not only Western Ambassadors but European Ministers and Presidents as well.
sounds a bit self serving --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:08, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
How is her clarification of her name's status considered "self-serving"? --KneeJuan (talk) 03:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
About the "clarification" - which sounds better for the subject's career:
Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she changed her public name sometime after the hostage crisis to Massoumeh. (from a notable third party source the New York Times) or
Like many Iranian girls, she has two names, she was named Massoumeh at birth, but known as Niloufar among friends and relatives (the "source" for this statement says nothing about what Iranian girls do or about being named Massoumeh at birth, only that her "real name" is Niloufar) The second edit gives a justification for changing the name she used without explaining why anyone would care or that she was known as Niloufar during the hostage crisis. It is, or can be "self-serving", because being famous as the spokesperson for the taking of diplomats hostage might be a disadvantagous to a career in the international arena. --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
P.S. are you not disputing that: In her recently published memoirs,she has however repeatedly referred to her cordial and official contacts with not only Western Ambassadors but European Ministers and Presidents as well.
is self serving and doesn't belong in the article? --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
I've tagged it with NPOV and COI until this is sorted out. --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. This is a WP:BLP, not an attack page. Her explanation about something as personal as her name, should be given to priority to critical opinion pieces.--Kurdo777 (talk) 22:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
But it's not an opinon piece.
And the text that was deleted: Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she changed her public name sometime after the hostage crisis to Massoumeh. is not exactly an attack. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Look at this sentence: In her recently published memoirs,she has however repeatedly referred to her cordial and official contacts with not only Western Ambassadors but European Ministers and Presidents as well.
Is it notable that a government official has contacts with ambassadors and ministers and presidents and considers the contacts "cordial and official"? Is this not self serving? --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The issue at hand is that despite being active in the environment and having been a vice president, what Ebtekar is most famous for is being spokeperson for the hostage takers. In the article you don't like, the reporter says Ebtekar told her (the reporter) not to write about her (Ebtekar's) earlier name and job, i.e. while certainly not ashamed of having been the spokesperson, Ebtekar gives a strong indication of not wanting the public (at least abroad) to known about it. The edits from the anonymous tehran address editor in the article also follow that pattern, deleting references (not all of them) to the hostage crisis, along with other less than flattering text. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:46, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
... but's wikipedia's job to not censor. ... To be fair but to not censor. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Threat[edit]

This was posted on my talk page today:

Serious warning

Please lay off the "New York Post" or "RajaNews"-type character assassinations, rumors, and smears on biographies of living people, this is an encyclopedia, not your weblog or editorial column. Please thoroughly read WP:COATRACK and WP:BLP, I will not warn you about this issue again, next time I see something like this [3] or this [4] > [5], I will just file a RFC about such unencyclopedic editorializations of these biographies of living persons using questionable sources, and you will be blocked for "persistently posting potentially defamatory information about living persons" in line with Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons. --Kurdo777 (talk) 04:23, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply[edit]

What are the "character assassinations, rumors, and smears on biographies of living people." you are accusing me of? Your links involve two different issues.
I made an edit cleaning up a sentence in the Mohammad-Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi article which was deleted on the grounds that the source used was a satrical article. I didn't know the source was satirical and have no problem with the delete. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:50, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The edit to Masoumeh Ebtekar doesn't smear or bad mouth her in the slightest. Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she changed her public name sometime after the hostage crisis to Massoumeh, is not even critical.
You haven't replied to my point above:
Ebtekar was known as Niloufar during the hostage crisis and called herself Massoumeh when she appeared in the international public eye again some years later during her political career as VP. There is one source that scooped it and talked about it (Elaine Sciolino), but the only quibbling is whether she changed her name or always legally had that name (Massoumeh) but didn't use it before. We can change the wording to Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she began using Massoumeh as her first name sometime after the hostage crisis, if you don't like the phrase "changed her public name."
(Note: KneeJuan and Kurdo777 are the same person. Earlier edits on the issue are by KneeJuan , later ones by Kurdo777.) --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

RFC[edit]

Request for comment on whether this edit involves "character assassinations, rumors, and smears," or has a neutral P.O.V. and clarifies issues about the subject of the article. (Here is the complete edit that was reverted by the other party.)

Also at issue is whether the Masoumeh Ebtekar#Questions about plagiarism subsection should be deleted or kept --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

See discussion above for further information. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

  • I haven't looked at the history of the talks between User Booga and Kurdo. I just state my opinion here: I agree with Kurdo that Rajanews is not a reputable source and reference from it is unacceptable. However, the rest of the section in question (plagarism) is very well sourced. They should remain and deleting them is biased. Farmanesh (talk) 21:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I am fine with that, as long as Rajanews is not used. The main issue here, however, is BoogaLouie's insistence that Ebtekar changed her birth name as part of a grand conspiracy to hide who she is, despite her own valid explanation that Masoumeh was her birth name, and Niloufar was her everyday name, a duality of religious birth-name/national given name that's very common with new-born babies in Iran. Assuming good faith, I think as a non-Iranian, BoogaLouie fails to understand this common practice, and has wrongly assumed that this was some sort of a cover-up. --Kurdo777 (talk) 08:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • If you are "fine" with only deleting Rajanews why did you delete the whole plagiarism subsection and not just the Rajanews?
  • As for "conspiracy", I will repost the following from above:
Ebtekar's name
The following was deleted: Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she changed her public name sometime after the hostage crisis to Massoumeh.
and replaced with an earlier edit from an anonymous editor with the Tehran address: Like many Iranian girls, she has two names, she was named Massoumeh at birth, but known as Niloufar among friends and relatives
Problem
  • Whether many Iranian girls or girls from any country have two names is not really the crucial information you want in the WP:lead. What is noteable is the fact that the name Ebtekar used publicly changed from one for which she was known all over the world at one time (as public spokesperson for the 1979-81 hostage takers), to another name, and further that she asked the reporter who uncovered this fact not to make it public.
  • Like many Iranian girls, she has two names, she was named Massoumeh at birth, but known as Niloufar among friends and relatives, is not really supported — in fact not at all supported — by the citation given "A Brief History of Global Engagement at the University of Pennsylvania". Archives.upenn.edu. Retrieved 2008-11-18. </ref> which says only Niloofar Ebtekar, Mary's real name, had lived for three years in the Philadelphia .... nothing about two names, or being named Massoumeh at birth, in fact nothing about Massoumeh. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC) (information added --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC) )
I Propose
that the Like many Iranian girls, she has two names, she was named Massoumeh at birth, but known as Niloufar among friends and relatives be put in the Masoumeh Ebtekar#Education and family section, and edits about
Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she changed her public name sometime after the hostage crisis to Massoumeh. be restore. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Why? Most of the sources I have seen, indicate that she's still called Noloufar, her official name has always been Masoumeh. So there was never a change of name, only one source makes such claim. --KneeJuan (talk) 16:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
What sources? The point is she was known as Niloufar during the hostage crisis, and called herself Massoumeh when she appeared in the international public eye again some years later during her political career as VP. There is one source that scooped it and talked about it (Elaine Sciolino). The only quibbling is whether she changed her name or always legally had that name (Massoumeh) but didn't use it before. We can change the wording to Originally known as Niloufar Ebtekar, she began using Massoumeh as her first name sometime after the hostage crisis, if you don't like the phrase "changed her public name." --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

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