Talk:Mike Patton

Sudoeste (Portugal)

«Faith No More also performed in Portugal in Festival do Sudoeste the 8th of August, where Mike Patton sang one song, Evidence, completely in Portuguese. They had already played the same song completely in Italian on June 14th, 2009, at the Rock in Idro Festival in Milan. » This is false. Mike Patton acted in Festival do Sudoeste at the 8th of August, with his Mondo Cane project. Faith No More have nothing to do with it. angelofwisdom (talk) 02:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, I just noticed that Faith No More actually were in Portugal on the Sudoeste Festival, August 8th... 2009! The year is not explicit. In August 8th 2010, Mike Patton was back to exactly the same venue, with his Mondo Cane project. It was a (huge) coincidence and misunderstanding. angelofwisdom (talk) 03:12, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Earlier history of Mike Patton

His father is a football / Soccer coach at McKinelyville High school. Mike went to Eureka Senior High School in Eureka, California and graduated 1985. Played base for Jazz Essamble for the high school. Loved to party and was well liked.

While in High school, he worked in a music store called "The Works," owned and operated by Larry Glass, Eureka City Council Member. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.120.230.102 (talk) 13:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Genres

This is ridiculous. Mike Patton has never been on a jazz, funk or pop album, and he only contributed to a single noise album (Maldoror). Meanwhile, a huge portion of his actual output is being ignored. If we insist on having a list of genres rather than "various", then they should each have sources or justification on the talk page. I suggest we looks through his discography and the genres listed for each band and each album, and list genres based on that. After we agree on a list, we should all agree to revert all further undiscussed edits to the genre list. Pwrong (talk) 04:47, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

• What I did, after I saw so much IP activity in the genre box, was look for those genres in the article. The ones I deleted did not have any hits at all in the article, and I felt I could safely remove them as unverified. Ideally, each genre in the infobox should have a footnoted reference--that makes it very easy to patrol new and unverified additions. Drmies (talk) 04:50, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

This approach is a good start, but most genre information tends to be in the infoboxes of the individual bands and albums. We might as well use these, they're fairly accurate. Pwrong (talk) 05:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

• Whaddayaknow. That ridiculous list actually has some foundation to it--here. That's not going to work; you and I already agree that this list is too long. Let's look for genres we can agree on, find some sources (not Allmusic!), and stick them in. I'll offer rock, funk, and alternative metal. Drmies (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not the length of the list I'm worried about. He does play a lot of genres and the list should reflect that as long as there's no rule against lists being too long. I'm worried that the guidelines say aim for generality, so people are including very wide genres that have nothing to do with Patton. For example, he's never been on a funk album that I know of. Bungle and Faith No More were both prominent examples of funk rock or maybe funk metal in their early days, but these aren't subgenres of funk. I think it would be ok to list 'rock, funk rock, and alternative metal', among others. This is as general as we can be without sacrificing accuracy.Pwrong (talk) 01:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

In addition to rock, funk rock and alternative metal, I'll suggest the following:

Hip hop covers Peeping Tom, X-ecutioners, Lovage and Crudo (if it ever gets released).

Experimental Music covers the crazy solo projects, all the collaborations, and most of his output in general.

Avant-garde Metal covers every Fantomas album, all the Moonchild Trio albums, and to some extent Bungle and FNM. I know this could be called a subgenre of experimental music or alternative metal, but we're talking about at least 9 albums that can't really be described any other way. I think this deserves a spot

This is only 6 genres, which I think is pretty conservative for someone so prolific. The only album it doesn't cover perfectly is Mondo Cane. Pwrong (talk) 02:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

If noone has any objections, I'll add these six genres in a few days. Pwrong (talk) 07:35, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Reaction to Fame?

First of all, acting irreverently towards the music industry and expressing distaste for the lifestyles of rock stars isn't unconventional. Second, wouldn't he have to be famous before he could have a reaction to fame? Seriously, if you asked a thousand random people who Mike Patton was I'd be shocked if you could find even two who knew who he is. 99.999% of people surveyed would either have no idea who he is or think you were talking about the WWII general George Patton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.239.65.60 (talk) 08:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

This section reads like flattery written by a fan not a neutral point of view. --216.239.65.218 (talk) 09:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It looks fine to me, and it is all cited. How would propose we improved it? And yes, Mike Patton is famous. The general public probably does not know who John Bonham is (were) either, unless you are a Led Zeppelin fan. That does not make him "not famous", though. Nymf _{talk to me} 19:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Kaada Collab(s)

This article fails to mention anywhere in it Patton's work with John Kaada. They made a collaborative album together called Romances. What's rather ironic is that Patton is indeed mentioned on the article for Kaada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hyde937 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

"acknowledged"?

Under the heading "Style and influences", it states "A list published by the Chicago-based music website Consequence of Sound (CoS), acknowledged Mike Patton as 'the greatest singer of all time'." Setting aside that rather overblown claim, there is also the disturbing use of the term "acknowledged". To acknowledge a thing is to objectively recognize its qualities or characteristics. That's not what said website is doing; it's stating an opinion, not a fact. I think that "...acknowledged Mike Patton as..." should be changed to something like "...opined that Mike Patton is..." or "...claimed that Mike Patton is..." Any other opinions? Bricology (talk) 16:37, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

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vocal range

this paragraph bothers me

"A list published by the Chicago-based music website Consequence of Sound, acknowledged Mike Patton as "the greatest singer of all time."[57] The May 2014 article referenced VVN Music's (Vintage Vinyl News) analysis of various rock & pop singers, ranking them in order of their respective octave ranges.[6] The article served as a retraction to a previous article,[58] which originally awarded the number one position to Axl Rose. Both articles praised Patton's impressive 6 octaves, 1/2 note range (Eb1 to E7), versus Axl's admirable 5 octaves, 2-1/2 notes (while mentioning, for transparency, that world record holder Tim Storms has a range of 10 octaves)."

I suspect the original articles started some kind of urban myth for all these folks having incredible vocal ranges. Something feels wrong. What do you guys think?

FYI here is someone with a six octave range https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc3Xg2o26IE

I urge you to watch because when you get to the really high registered you sound a bit like a bat lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colmcq (talk • contribs) 11:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

According to FlightTime, VVN Music is not an acceptable source for Wikipedia. 193.81.43.55 (talk) 22:22, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Fennesz + Patton listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Fennesz + Patton. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- 70.51.45.46 (talk) 05:27, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Why no mention of Mike's ethnicity?

Why is there no mention of Mike's ethnicity? It is truly interesting and fascinating.

Here have a look:

Mike is Finnish, English, Scottish, German, distant Welsh.

I really thought he had some Asian ancestry.

Disputed inline: Opera

I know that Mike is a super versatile maniac, but let's please talk about the following sentence from the Technique, influences and legacy section: "Patton's vocals touch on crooning, falsetto, screaming, opera, death growls, rapping, beatboxing, and scatting, among other techniques."

It's unsourced, but I FULLY agree that Mike can do, and does, crooning, falsetto, screaming, growls, rapping, beatboxing and scatting. But I've never seen him do opera. And I think I've seen pretty much everything he has ever done. And I know that he never was an opera singer and that he isn't classically trained. Can someone please share an "opera" performance of Mike? I've already asked this question in his fan group on FB, but no one showed me an opera performance.

Thanks so much in advance, Stimmbildung (talk) 18:31, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Might be that you've already heard this and dismissed it but I assume most people who talk about him singing opera are referring to Il Cupo Dolore. Sippe (talk) 10:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for answering! Well, Il Cupo Dolore is not opera. Opera is a specific kind of spectacle that needs to combine the following two features: an operatic singing technique and an operatic setting.

Take this here for example, it is an opera singer using an operatic singing technique in a non-operatic setting, thus, it is not opera:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK6GsRUl4WI

Opera is a spectacle. Performing opera means portraying a role, and thus acting, of an actual opera, in an actual opera, and singing several classical arias of that opera with a respective singing technique, in an opera house, with a full orchestra, without any electronic amplificaation.

Everything else is not opera. You can use an operatic singing technique outside opera, but it is not opera.

In Mike's case it is neither opera nor operatic singing. ..which is not surprising as he is not classically trained. In order to call opera a part of your resumee, you must not "only" actually perform in opera, you must have had classical vocal training, usually a university degree in bel canto, followed by year long practice at an opera house.

In Mike's case he is using a contemporary singing technqiue, a pop technique actually, trying to mimic an operatic sound.

But it is absolutely not operatic singing. Some of the main features of an operatic singing technique are: Gola aperta (dropped larynx and raised soft palate), chiaroscuro, a certain amount of resonance and overtones, four-dimensionality, full legato, operatic vibrato on all vowel sounds, the exclusive use of the 5 bel canto vowels, singing over a whole orchestra without a mic and still being well audible in the back rows of the opera house etc... Mike uses none of those feaatures. Because he does not use an operatic technique. Because he is not trained in it.

In order to call opera a part of your portfolio, you must be an actual opera singer, and in order to call an operatic singing technique part of your portfolio you at least need to have classical vocal training and showcased a respective opera technique.

Il Cupo Dolore is a fun treat, and shows a different side of him, and I reaaally enjoy it, but it is absolutely not "opera". Stimmbildung (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Content dispute

There is a dispute over whether the following content belongs on the page:

He told the San Francisco Chronicle in 1995, "It's hard to see as much as you'd like with our schedule on the road, but it's harder to do coke and fuck whores every night. Now that's a full time job."

In the mid-2000s, Patton stopped to continually act irreverently offstage and to claim strange things to interviewers; by the last years of the next decade he had entirely ceased to do so. In 2019, he explained: "I'm already giving a thousand percent to the music ... and I realize what's important and what's not. ... There's an art to [talking to the press] ... And [on the other hand] fucking with [it] and being a dick it's not really worth it. ... and I learned that from an early age, ... there was a while when I was a total asshole and I didn't say anything and all I would do was give you a sarcastic answer, and spread out crazy lies and rumors just because it was funny [laughs] ... [but] I grew up ... And I think, I hope I've gotten a little better at that". The frontman concluded: "It's much easier to just be, what did I say to you before: the easiest thing in the world is just to be yourself."

I believe that this content has no value for the encyclopedia and does not belong on the page. 24.29.56.240 (talk) 06:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

What makes it unencyclopaedic though, this just seems a case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT rather than any actual reason sourced content that he has said, should be removed. NZFC^(talk)(cont) 07:20, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Just because it is sourced doesn't mean it belongs here. See WP:TMI. And your noticeboard post is ridiculous. 24.29.56.240 (talk) 09:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I think it would help if the quote was rewritten in a way that doesn't read like broken English. That might make the decision on inclusion or exclusion easier for everyone to make. Additionally, the right step here (other than an edit war, which is always a good decision for everyone!) is to post an RfC template and solicit some outside opinions. Nathan ^T 13:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Content dispute 2

"Noted for his vocal proficiency [...] Patton has earned critical praise" is unsourced and not really correct. Mike is noted for inter alia his versatility, range and experimentalism, but not for his "vocal proficiency" (and none of the used sources says that). Mike is actually known for having not really been formally trained. Mike is not frequently analysed by experts (vocal coaches or voice teachers), but those who did analyse his technique did not call it "proficient" at all, they actually say that you can tell by his technique that he lacks formal training. I'll e.g. quote this vocal coach (with a Master's degree in vocal pedagogy here): "From a technical standpoint he does almost everything wrong. If you took him to a jury at a college, he would fail. But that's not the point with Mike Patton." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ08hNWFOnU&t=4m29s Mike is great, he's amazing, he's cult, but he's not vocally proficient. And he's not noted for "vocal proficiency" at all. Mike is noted for being that badass, versatile, experimentalistic lunatic who simply doesn't care about vocal technique and about doing things correctly. But no one who thinks of Mike says "Oh, yes, that is this vocally so immensely proficient singer!!" I'm really sorry and I really don't mean to be cynic, but I guess you know very well what I mean.

Also the used sources neither say that he is vocally proficient nor that he's noted for vocal proficicency. (Which would need to be evaluated by someone with education in that field anyway btw, and no one of the listed people has any education in that field).

And as far as the "critical praise" is concerned: There's only one critic mentioned. And that critic is not a vocal critic, he's a journalist without any education in that field, and he's not even a singer. All the other people mentioned are his friends and bandmates who basically say they dig his singing. And one other journalist is mentioned with no education in that field and who collabs with Mike too. I assume you see my point? Best wishes, Stimmbildung (talk) 15:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Languages

Does someone have a list of all languages Mike has ever sung in? I would like to add him to the List of multilingual bands and artists. Jasmin Ariane (talk) 21:12, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Spelling of Patton's middle name

Just ran across this

https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/performer/MR%20BUNGLE

In which Patton's middle name is consistently spelled as 'Allen'. Is there a source for the spelling of the name?Robbmonster (talk) 07:11, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Serious?

The article seems like a massive joke. Is this supposed to be serious? Greatest musician of all time is a one-hit wonder? Yet he is so great, he has become a God? lol 120.29.108.201 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

i agree 67.170.213.208 (talk) 10:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Lead too short tag?

Looks like a few producers were added to the lede after this tag was posted last summer. Is there something else User:Thumperward was looking for that would make it long enough? Kire1975 (talk) 12:51, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

This is a 200k article. Two paragraphs and half a dozen sentences is still woefully inadequate. Every section of the article should be adequately summarised in the lead. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Minus all 318 sources, the article length is just over 62K characters according to my calculations. Unfortunately, MOS:LEADLENGTH doesn't give any guidelines as to pages with more than 30K characters. Though it points to WP:SUMMARY which says "Very long articles should be split. Any ideas on what sections should be split off? It's a good question, but seems a bit technical. Patton has always had trouble fitting into definable categories. More than 4 paragraphs in the lead of any biographical page of any length would be overlong and very dificcult to avoid redundancies, imo. I just turned it into three paragraphs. Hope it helps. Kire1975 (talk) 07:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Hatred for autistic people

Collapse ~TheresNoTime (to explain!) 21:17, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am having difficulty finding sources for Patton hatred for/prejudice against/abuse of autistic people, most are weasel-worded with other terms like troglodytes or goobers to hide Patton's bigotry. Can anyone help? I think it is important to the article that Patton's sadism and cruelty and hideousness as a human being are documented. He has personally made me cry on several occasions and since becoming famous he has used his fans to abuse autistic people, myself included.Lynchenberg (talk) 08:49, 28 August 2021 (UTC) Sounds like a major WP:BLP violation even if you could find a verifiable source. Kire1975 (talk) 11:32, 28 August 2021 (UTC) Oh really? Tell me then, does including Jimmy Urine's sexual assault allegations constitute a major WP:BLP violation as well, or is it okay to bully him because he is autistic? Or do you just have a problem with autistic people yourself and want to see them in pain?Lynchenberg (talk) 18:48, 28 August 2021 (UTC) You're having problems finding sources to support your accusations because they don't seem to exist. Once again, it's you attempting to shoehorn autism and prejudice against autism into an article where it has no basis in reality. You attempted to do so in the Mr. Bungle, Mindless Self Indulgence, and Jimmy Urine articles and now you're attempting it here. The difference between the information about Jimmy Urine's sexual assault allegations and your accusations against Patton is that one is reporting about an accusation made against somebody for sexual assault and the other is an accusation of a group of people for which you can find no source whatsoever that supports it. Adding such a thing to the biography of a living person can certainly be a violation of WP:BLP. In fact, if I were to guess, even making the accusation on this talk page, as you have, seems like a blatant a violation of it just the same. NJZombie (talk) 03:14, 3 September 2021 (UTC) @NJZombie: I read through that and there is nothing in WP:BLP that says bringing up a possible controversy (even if one is mistaken about the veracity of that controversy) on a talk page is in violation of anything. You have to guess it is, which as a fan of Mike Patton and Mr. Bungle, I am guessing is a situation you're most happy with, given the fact you are a Patton/Bungle fan must suggest about the way you must feel about me personally as an autist, eh? You may want me to commit suicide, but all I can say is, looks like your hero is finally getting a taste of what he puts others through, and hopefully he'll be the one who decides to end it all: https://music.mxdwn.com/2021/09/14/news/faith-no-more-and-mr-bungle-cancel-upcoming-tour-dates-due-to-covid-19-exacerbated-mental-health-reasons-for-mike-patton/?fbclid=IwAR2VaCvlI0NiSJH2rXu5r1q_4ipMxS0CM6GQYpv5uN5mVKTGYB7DbW5gGM8 Lynchenberg (talk) 17:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Tone of article

Hi - I have never done this before - left feedback on a wiki article. But I have rarely read such an obvious PR publicist leaning article on Wikipedia. Wow. It is fawning and formulaic to make this dude Mike Patton sound like a demigod. This tone and content belongs on MikePatton.com. Not Wikipedia 2407:7000:9878:9B00:155D:EA01:1003:A2DF (talk) 00:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I had to check out Talk, too, since I was stunned at the length of the article. I'm not sure that I would call it PR, but it's definitely overboard, obsessing over every micro-detail of Patton. Is he really such a major figure in music? David Bowie has barely 4,000 words more than Patton does. I always tend to think "More is better" with Wikipedia, but this one really challenges my belief. Mitch and Murray (talk) 06:15, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

i agree. too long 67.170.213.208 (talk) 10:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Native American claims

User:Bohemian Baltimore recently made this edit adding this page to "Category:American people who self-identify as being of Native American descent". The article is massive. I've searched by a number of key words, and have read the Early years and Personal life section a few times. I fail to see any sources about him being or claiming to be of Native American descent? I'm not saying it's not there, but considering how massive the page is, can somebody point us all in the right direction? Kire1975 (talk) 08:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kire1975 He was originally categorized as being "of Native American descent", but I saw no reference to it and moved it to the self-identify category. Which I see is now gone, which is probably what I should have done from the start. Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 00:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Vocal range

I've removed sources for claims of Patton's vocal range for now. If there are other, recent sources that do claim he has a six-or-higher vocal range, I'd be weary of them as possible circular reporting due to these articles and the fan forums they cited being re-cited/claimed.

Both the Consequence of Sound[1] and Vintage Vinyl[2] cite unreliable sources for their claims.

A lot of the information comes down to a forum called "The Range Place" (now dead link, but url was http://therangeplace.forummotions.com/). It was a forum hosted by Forummotion[3]. I believe it has now become or is related to "The Range Planet".[4] The Range Planet has registered users creating threads and giving their analysis of potential notes a singer hits and their explanations why.

Consequence of Sound article:

For their purposes, VVN expanded on the original criteria established by Concert Hotels, which drew its sample from Rolling Stones’ list of the 100 Greatest Singers ... and those singers who’d been analyzed by The Range Place.

Vintage Vinyl draws heavily from The Range Place forum:

Many thanks to the users at The Range Place who have been such a great help in correcting, adding and explaining their findings ... If a singer had been analyzed on The Range Place's site ... You can find that information along with a LOT more over at The Range Place. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 12:28, 10 August 2023 (UTC) Clear Looking Glass (talk) 12:28, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to further that per the podcast interview provided, he claims it's all B.S and doesn't believe he has the "biggest vocal range" or whatever moniker is being used.[5] Again, the VVN Music source is not reliable whatsoever and uses a now defunct fan forum called "Range Place". Though perhaps we can mention that he has garnered reports on his supposed wide vocal range. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 04:13, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Article Length & Detail vs. Notability

I am fascinated with this article. Its length and detail is WAY out of proportion with the importance of the subject.

I need a more experienced Wikipedian to weigh in: Is that normal? Is there a way to dial back an article's length? It seems, from looking at edit histories, very difficult to take away from an article. Such changes are almost always reverted. It seems very easy to add to an article. The result is articles that keep ballooning in size, irreversibly.

Looking back into the history of this and related articles, there seem to be a few Wikipedians who have contributed the most to Mike Patton's presence on Wikipedia. One user in particular, a retired Wikipedian named @Ojo del tigre, was especially prolific. They are the one who doubled the size of this article and have spent the last few years adding Mike Patton as an influence on the pages of pretty much every rock artist from the past 40 years. They may, in fact, be Mike Patton.

I agree with a number of the people on this talk page: Mike Patton is not important enough to warrant so many words, and the length of the article makes it very hard to get a sense of Mike and his place in the world. I came to this article from Guns N' Roses/Metallica Stadium Tour and was overwhelmed by the amount of information. I just wanted to learn who Mike was and why he seems to feud with people. Perhaps he is a thin-skinned chap who edits his own Wikipedia page, and add himself as an influence on and/or feuding peer of far more notable musicians? Who knows?

Hopefully, someone with more experience on Wikipedia can shed some light. Knowledgeispow333r (talk) 18:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Seconded. As much as I love FNM/Bungle, I don't think Mike Patton is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article this long. Someone like Trent Reznor who's a far more prominent figure in music & pop culture in general doesn't even have a page that's as detailed/prolific as Mike. Same goes for Greg Puciato (has anyone outside the metal community ever even heard of TDEP?) (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed .Way too long . Johnny Hodges, a truly god-like figure on saxophone, has 16K bytes. This is rather absurd, and makes Wikipedia look bad. Mike Patton's article is 223 K bytes. Bob Dylan's is 255 K bytes, the Beatles 215K. Does that make sense?

GET THIS: Johann Sebastian Bach article-way shorter than Mike Patton at 164 K Bytes! Flavorjam (talk) 11:22, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

People can start with the influences section. It's longer than most entire pages about people. It's ok if it shrinks down to 2-3 paragraphs. avalean (talk) 19:14, 11 January 2024 (UTC)