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National Identity[edit]

Is this the same as the article 'nation'? Perhaps a separate article needs to be written.ok

Joseph Stalin as the main authority on nations?[edit]

Am I the only person for whom red alerts started going off when he saw that the lead to this article is, in one way or another, composed of either quotes of Stalin or responses to those quotes, in a share of more than two thirds?

Of the dozens of excellent scholars who deal with nations and nationalism...You make a lead that is mostly about a profesionally non-qualified totalitarian dictator?

Sorry, but this is nothing short of preposterous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justice and Reason (talkcontribs) 06:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

  • I disagree completely, and I think that few people had such 'red alerts' going off because most people are more critical than you have been here. You are coming from the same kind of place as the people who say that we should not study Heidegger because he was a Nazi. Marxism and the National Question was written in 1913 (you would be a fool to not give him credit for his theoretical contributions to Marxism - he was a philosopher in some capacity whether you like him or not), long before Stalin's ascension to power, and if absolutely nothing else his conception of nation in the text is one of the most comprehensive from the period and remains one which is pretty well airtight. You can read the first chapter of the text for his various arguments for what criteria are necessary to say that a group of people constitute a nation. The article was previously very poorly written (and remains so - the definition of nation given is practically useless, saying that a nation might refer to one of a few already defined things; at least the inclusion of Stalin's conception actually made the article helpful) and the inclusion of Stalin's conception without that of others, but if a section about comparative conceptions of nation is included in the future then specific reference absolutely must be made of Stalin.- (talk) 15:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
    • BRB, quoting Mein Kampf, written long before Hitler's ascension to power, in the article Jews. --Niemti (talk) 19:03, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Oh don't be so sensitive and propagandising. Your ad hitlerum joke contributes nothing. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 16:55, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Argument to replace 'Jughashvili' with 'Stalin' for authorship[edit]

Prinsgezinde, you made an edit on May 2016‎ relegating the information that Jughashvili was Stalin to a note, with the comment 'This was done to distinguish him from his later paranoid period in which he started called himself "Stalin". This book was still published under the name Jugashvili'. If this was correct then I'd accept the edit. However the page on Marxism and the National Question specifically says 'Marxism and the National Question was completed late in January 1913, with the author signing the work "K. Stalin."' (citingn McNeal's Stalin's Works). Therefore it seems that Jughashvili had started calling himself Stalin at this point, and that the work in question was published under this name. What is the work you are citing from? Does it prove that the work was originally published under the name 'Jughashvili'? I propose that the reference to 'Jughashvili' be replaced with 'Stalin', as this is both more accurate regarding the original publication, and more informative to the reader, to whom 'Stalin' is the more well known name. Thermocycler (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Thermocycler, I used the source given in the citation, but I believe the one I based it on was originally in Russian. If it's traditionally attributed to "Stalin" in English (as is clearly visible on the picture of the article you shared) then it was my mistake, and it should indeed be changed back. Thanks for notifying me. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 15:10, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Prinsgezinde, yes I see there can be confusion as the Russian source attributes authorship to Jughashvili. I will change the citation to an english source and change the name to Stalin. I also think previous commenters have a point, about him not being the best source for the main definition in the introduction, seeing as he's primarily a political figure not a scholar! But it seems good enough until someone can come up with a better one.Thermocycler (talk) 16:37, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Well regardless of his reputation, he was extremely influential (hell, there's an ideology named after him). And his definition is surprisingly accurate. It's not asserted as fact anyway; we're just giving one of multiple definitions. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 18:15, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Complexity and the African Diaspora: Proposed Contribution[edit]

I am interested in contributing to this article aimed at defining the term "nation". As this thread of discussion suggests, this concept is extremely complicated. People have varying views on what a nation is, and no one definition is wrong or right. This is because nation is a perceived and socially constructed concept. Furthermore, the socially accepted definition of the term has changed over the centuries.

I would like to focus my contribution to first, addressing how complex of a topic this is in the opening section. In this section, I would like to draw on ideas from Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities, a work that has already been referenced in this discussion. His work is essential to understand how concepts of nationhood have been constructed in the minds of humans over the centuries. The current definition is simply one of many ways that people view nation, and I would like to flesh out that complexity in the opening.

The other contribution I would like to make to this article is to demonstrate how the term nation has changed in meaning for some people. I would like to add a section which explains how the African Diaspora has altered some opinions of what nation/nationhood is. I realize this is only a small piece of a much larger history of how the term has changed over time, but it is a very key part of how the concept has changed from a racial description to a term implying some kind of physical statehood. The 18th century brought an alteration to the meaning and came to be more narrowly referred to as a group with a recognizable and sovereign government with physical borders. This new definition aligns more with the concept of a nation-state. The nation began to emerge in the late 18th century as the leading form of government and social organization. This definition contrasts from the earlier shared view that a nation is a group of people unified by language, region and cultural background; what is now consider to be one’s ethnicity. I have researched the diaspora and have sources, relying mainly on Patrick Manning's The African Diaspora: a History through Culture.

In my contribution I will carefully word my findings, making sure that it is not an essay that does not fit within the structure of Wikipedia. I feel that this contribution is vital in understanding the complexity of what "nation" means. Kristadurham (talk) 18:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)


The lede at this time looks like this:

Nation may refer to a large group of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history. It also says nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”.</ref> Nation carries varying meanings, and the connotation of the term has changed over time.

The second sentence begins "It also says..." but I don't know what "it" is. I'll remove that phrase, but someone may need to give an attribution for that quote. (Maybe Webster's?). There's also an end-tag </ref>. I don't know what has gone missing in the editing process, but that tag has to come out until someone can do some repair work.

I have no stake in spinning the article one way or another, it just needs to be readable.

zadignose (talk) 04:03, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

the wp:first sentence[edit]

I was thinking of tagging the first sentence with {{elucidate}}. It really should attempt to define the subject. The current first sentence reads as a cop-out, in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

"Ancient nations" section[edit]

I have tagged this section as potentially POV due to its very traditional view that seems almost entirely local. The sources come from within Israel, and state that Egypt was the first national state, followed by what it describes are the first real nations: Israel and all the Israeli tribes associated with it. This is Gat's view based on the Hebrew Bible, and it seems to ignore the Sumerians, Akkadians, Minoans, Babylonians, Xia dynasty, etc. It also doesn't classify "the approaching Assyrian Empire" as a nation, and claims that "ancient Israel was an example of a premodern nation", which is odd since we know so little about it for certain. Needs some very hard proof as to why these others were not nations or the section is more or less one-sided. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 21:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

@Prinsgezinde: I'm also not sure why Azar Gat seems to be mentioned so much in the article given that he's not very notable within this literature. —Nizolan (talk) 08:56, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups[edit]

Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 07:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

nation means people[edit]

nation is from italian word nazione, it means folk, people ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:19, 16 February 2016 (UTC)