Talk:Owain Glyndŵr

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Anglicising names[edit]

(Note: Should we be Anglicising this name?)

Yes. We're anglicising names with some consistency (though nomenclature is still a vexing issue - see my note on Salian). Heinrich > Henry, Carolus Magnus > Charlemagne. There should be a clear statement of what other versions are, but then leave the title of the page something that will be found by English-typers searching. Now there is a subsidiary question here - do you wish to have the entry under Owen Glendower and all references inside the entry to 'Glyndwr'? --MichaelTinkler

I guess I'd never seen him referred to in an anglicised version before, so I hadn't realised there *was* such a version, hence my question. But what you say makes sense, and having read your own page I'll go along with whatever you say! Verloren

I realise I'm coming late to this discussion, but as someone who before the last local government reorganisation in Wales lived in the area of "Cyngor Dosbarth Glyndwr District Council", I have to say that this anglicisation strikes me as extremely quaint! Nobody locally uses "Glendower" when using either language, and I'd argue that Glyndwr is now the man's accepted name in English too (I cite as evidence the British 5.5p postage stamp of "Medieval Warriors" issued on 10th July 1974 which clearly identifies him as "Owain Glyndw^r c.1354/1416"). The "Glyn Dwr" usage which appears on other pages also strikes me as odd... -- Arwel 23:01 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Arwel. I'm English, and the only bit of Anglicising most English people now do with OG's name is to omit the circumflex over the W. This is consistent with the way some other Welsh names are now treated in England - for example, Caernarfon is now greatly preferred to the old-fashioned "Carnarvon" (as the Wikipedia page itself states), and Conwy is much more common than "Conway". Loganberry 11:50, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with Arwel also, fwiw. — OwenBlacker 10:36, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

I also agree with Arwel, Glyndŵr is a symbol of Welsh nationlism and independence so should not be angliscised, people I know who speak English use Glyndwr, I think the current situation with a search for Owen Glendower redirects here is fine.

It doesn't matter if the nationalists / independence movement claim him as god incarnate, what matters is prevalence of use and yes "Owain Glyndwr" does appear to be used in English language, probably due to the resurgence of Welsh styled names. Pbhj (talk) 23:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Help identifying "he" and "Henry"[edit]

In the section "The Revolt, 1400-15", starting with the sentence "His young protégé..." I can't tell for certain who 'his', 'he', and 'Henry' refers to. I think we need to use Hotspur, Monmouth, and Henry IV here to keep it clear, but I'm not the one to do this correctly. Any help?

Need clarification in "The Revolt, 1400-15"[edit]

Paragraph beginning w/ "1403 marks the year..." states that "Village after village rose to meet him." "Meet" needs to be replaced by either "oppose" or "join", but I don't know which. Any help?

I'd read that as "join". -- Arwel 12:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I did a little checking with other sources, and, based on your comment, and the apparent popularity of Glyndwr's campaign, I modified the text to read "rose to join him". I think this accurately represents the event. Thanks. -- Sergio 17:11, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Also, in paragraph beginning w/"1405 was the...", a sentence begins "Local tradition holds that...". Unfortunately, it is unclear when the text ceases to report "local tradition" and begins to report documented historical facts, casting doubt on all of the info following, at least to the end of the paragraph. Any help?

I'd read that as just to the end of that sentence, that they "invaded England". The face-off at Worcester is recorded fact, not tradition. -- Arwel 12:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Based on other readings, it does appear that it's their route across Wales that is only known from tradition, so I have moved and modified the "according to tradition" phrase to better indicate what it refers to. Thanks. -- Sergio 17:15, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Just a small point - it says that Henry of Monmouth was 16 at the time of the Battle of Shrewsbury. But in article Henry V of England it says he was born in September of 1387. If he met Glendower in July of 1403 (as clarified here, wouldn't that mean he was 15 when the battle took place, not 16 as this article states. Could I please have some clarification? Mageslayer99 19:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

further interesting points about "The Revolt"[edit]

Owain’s men quickly spread through north-east Wales.

The few men following him spread out? The support for his naming as Twywsog Cyrmy [sic] spread presumably, but how by letter, by pronouncements at settlements, by consultation with landowners? Who were the "Welsh guerrilas" in the second paragraph? Owain's men? How did they attack a presumably large and well rehearsed army? Wasn't Henry's army returning from Scotland?

Although Hotspur arrived from Denbigh with 120 men-at-arms and 300 archers, he knew it would take a great deal more to get inside so formidable a fortress and, forced to negotiate, he finally gave the Tudors their Pardon.

Presumably Hotspur as the King's fixer would also know that they could just post watches of archers and wait it out for a couple of months. In this ancestry.com article on battles of Glyn Dwr (sic) it claims instead that 9 of those in the castle were given up to buy pardons for the others. A BBC page on teh Battle of Shrewsbury claims that Hotspur "had to besiege it for a month in order to get it back". Which rather sounds like a win, not a forced negotiation. As for Pumlimon "Owain and a few of his followers crossed Pumlumon mountain to the river Hyddgen. An army of men from Ceredigion, both Welsh and English, came to fight against him. The Welshmen decided to change sides and join Owain, and they drove the English soldiers away." differs markedly. Without any explanation as to why settlers, presumably weakly armed (possibly with tools) would attack an armed force I'm inclined towards this alternate explanation that a force from Ceredigion partly turned-coat and routed the English troops.

The army was nearly washed away in floods and Henry, sleeping in his armour, almost died when his tent was blown down. Wet, starving, and dejected, they returned to Hereford Castle with nothing to claim for their efforts.

Seriously poorly managed to be washed away unless a particular fording was necessary? More details needed. As for sleeping in armour, doubtful; dying from a collapsed tent, laughable. Moreover you'd have thought on their 2 day drinking binge they might have found some munchies, no? The Cistercian monastery would have been well provisioned with not only ale but also food.

These laws sent a message to any of those who were wavering that the English viewed all the Welsh with equal suspicion.

Strange the message I get is that the King wanted to defeat a welsh landowners uprising and prevent the powerful landowners in Wales from buying land in England or acquiring power in England through marriage; naturally protecting himself from potential future challenges to the Crown. Wrt Reginald Grey Grey had clearly tried to demean his neighbouring landowner Glyndwr in the eyes of the King (and succeeded) so Glyndwr had it in for him, the ransom of £10,000 marks destroyed the family and their interests were eventually sold to the crown (centuries later). It was Henry's support for de Grey and the high taxation and the desire for greater control over his historic family lands that led Glyndwr to attack the Crown. I'm sure not all of those dwelling in the Welsh lands supported him and many will have rued the day they met him by the end no doubt. Pbhj (talk) 01:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Last Welsh Prince of Wales[edit]

was the last Welshman to hold the title Prince of Wales

Is this strictly speaking true? Henry VIII had been a Prince of Wales, and his father Henry VII (Henry Tudor) was most definatelly Welsh, which would surely make Henry VIII Welsh. Any ideas out there?--Alun 07:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I would argue that Henry VIII's father being Welsh makes Henry VIII of Welsh descent, but not necessarily Welsh. However, I have a problem with the statement anyway, since 'holding the title' would suggest that it was conferred upon him by some accepted means. As I understand it, Glyndwr assumed the title, and most historians do not list him among the historical "Princes of Wales". Thus, unless Henry VIII is actually Welsh and not just of Welsh descent, I would suggest that the phrase read "was the last Welshman to adopt the title Prince of Wales"--Sergio1 02:28, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

How do you differentiate between being Welsh and of Welsh descent. For example I'm Welsh, but my children were born here in Finland (to a Finnish mother), they are still British citizens, and I consider them to be Welsh-British as well as Finnish. When I have grandchildren, if they are born in Finland I will consider them of Welsh descent, they wouldn't qualify for British citizenship. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that in my oppinion a person shares the nationality of their parents, but not necessarily of their grandparents. As we are talking about nationality and not citizenship it seems to be a matter of oppinion anyway. Look at the large numbers of Irish-Americans who claim to be Irish, but are third or fourth generation American. There is a lot of Welsh nationalistic feeling about Glyndwr, which romanticises his status as the last Welsh Prince of Wales.

I understand what you are saying about Glyndwr. But it is a question of point of view, to the Welsh, it is the foreign Anglo-Norman monarch who did not have the legal right to confer the title of Prince of Wales on anyone in the first place. Glyndwr had the right to adopt the title, being descended from the royal houses of both Gwynedd and Deheubarth (if my memory servs me correctly).Alun 05:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Why does it say on Madoc ap Llywelyn that Madoc ap Llywelyn was the last recognized prince of Wales? What does recognized mean.. doesn't it depend on who is doing the recognizing? Zargulon 13:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point.Alun 17:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it depends on who is doing the recognition. The title "Prince of Wales" was GRANTED by Henry III of England on Dafydd ap Llywelyn (and his heirs and successors) who used it after 1240. Prior to this the north Welsh rulers had used titles like "Prince of Gwynedd and Lord of Aberffraw" since the times of Owain Gwynedd (he who stopped using the title "King of Gwynedd") in 1170. Glyndwr was proclaimed "prince of wales" at an assembly of the magnates following a popular uprising, and if power comes from the people, then he was their prince of Wales indeed. However, in terms of international law, Wales was at this point - and had been since Norman times - seen as subject to the King of England. It's rulers had historically recognised the King of England as their overlord and as such he could strip them of their lands and title. At the same time as Glyndwr was crowned Prince Owain IV of Wales another person was using the same title - Prince Harry, The Prince of Wales - the son of King Henry IV.

The title "Prince of Gwynedd" was one inherited by the head of the dynasty of Aberffraw. I think it is reasonable to make the distinction between this, which was inherited and predated any fealty to England, and the title "Prince of Wales" which was conferred by an English king on a Welsh leader. In 1294 Prince Madoc ap LLywelyn was the most senior member of the Aberffraw dynasty (House of Cunedda) not incarcerated and was proclaimed Tywysog by the folk of Gwynedd. It starts becoming confused because the definition of prince differs from English and Welsh. In Welsh, I believe, it literally means "leader", while in England it has a definition and status specifically in relation to a king. So a prince can be a prince in two different ways, depending on what side you are supporting. James Frankcom

Arms[edit]

The article states "Owain’s personal standard — the quartered arms of Powys and Deheubarth rampant — began to be seen all over Wales". This is often stated, but I think the arms are actually those of Gwynedd and therefore of Llywelyn the Great and Llywelyn the Last, and that Owain adopted them to support his claim to be the successor to Llywelyn the Last. Glanmor Williams (Recovery, reorientation and reformation: Wales c1415-1642 supports this (p.4). Rhion 13:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of discussion about this on another discussion page. But basically, there are two different but quite similar looking banners and it has caused some confusion in the past.

  • Llywelyn's Arms

The banner of arms of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (which appear to have been the arms of the Aberffraw dynasty since Prince Iorwerth, father of Llywelyn the Great) are four lions "pasant" and "guardant" quartered on red and gold. In layman's terms these are lions walking with one front paw raised in defence. These are the arms currently used by the English "Prince of Wales" and are the same as those used by Llywelyn ap Gruffudd between 1246 - 1282.

  • Glyndwr's Arms

The banner of arms of Owain ap Gruffudd (known as Glyndwr) - head of the House of Powys Fadog through his father, and inherited Deheubarth through his mother - would be the arms of Powys and Deheubarth quartered. The arms of Powys are a red lion "rampant" on a gold field, and the arms of Deheubarth are the reverse. By coincidence this flag appears very similar to the banner of arms of Llywelyn except that the lions on Glyndwr's banner are rampant (rearing up on two legs) and on Llywelyn's are pasant & guardant. It seems that the arms have evolved entirely seperately and are unique, but by coincidence appear very similar - hence the confusion. Are there any reliable and contemporary descriptions of the arms used by Owain Glyndwr? James Frankcom

possibly add a owain in pop. culture/fiction[edit]

A character in Terry Brooks' Word and Void series is named and modeled after Owain Glyndwr. The Indian O'olish Amenah, that runs into both main charcters of the series multiple times, is in service as honorable as the first Owain. Dunno if that's worth mentioning, but add it if you want. -Chewbacca 10:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Beheaded[edit]

According to this article Arundel was beheaded in 1388. According to the article Richard FitzAlan, 11th Earl of Arundel he was arrested in 1397. Which is true?87.90.203.65 08:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Hardship after the revolt[edit]

I am wondering if the documented hardship after the revolt is as bad as it was made out. My theory is that most of the documents were from the English side, and the Welsh documents made by the higher ends of society which would more likely see the effects.

I wager that many of the English settlers in the towns left back for England during the years of the uprising which was the main cause of hardship and "grass growing in town centres" because populations in these areas was so low, whereas if 75% of the Welsh population at the time was "barefoot peasants" then any economic impact would be negligable on the poorest but self sufficient individuals.

This is in considerable contrast to today, where the poorest always seem to suffer first because of the absence of self sufficiency and dependance on society. I understand that the high echeleons of welsh society felt the pinch just as much as the English however, but I feel that widespread hardship of the Welsh as a whole is incorrect, beyond anti-welsh policies of the English.

Wales's location in the United Kingdom[edit]

Do we really need a map of this? Surely people who know as little about the country as that could do with reading the entire Wales article before moving on Owain Glyndwr!

What would be fantastic for this page would be a map of those areas controlled by Owain at different periods. Does anyone have such a map? It's not much use, but I think I remember seeing one in Harlech Castle. garik 12:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've seen a map of the maximum extent of his control of Wales (not quite all of modern Wales) so it does exist ... but I cant remember where ? Jaster 13:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The United Kingdom didn't even exist back then :S --Nutthida (talk) 01:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Rating?[edit]

This is a brilliant article by any standards. I wonder if it should be rated? Any thoughts folks? MarkThomas 13:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly it has got enough information for a good article or even a featured article, but it would need to get embellished with inline citationsin order to pass. --Stemonitis 15:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Also the question of the title of the article being in Welsh would not stand up to more serious scrutinty than it received at the top here in 2004! Johnbod 18:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Disappearance over Death[edit]

I changed the DEATH AND LEGACY section to DISAPPEARANCE AND LEGACY. Since nothing is no about him after 1412, his death is certain by now of course, but how, why, and when is still unknown. Jmlk17 09:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Disappearance and legacy[edit]

Doing some minor cleanup, I found the following passage:

In 2006 The Owain Glyndwr Society's president Adrien Jones said: "Four years ago we visited a direct descendant of Glyndwr, a John Skidmore, at Kentchurch Court, near Abergavenny. "He took us to Monnington Straddle, in Herefordshire, where one of Glyndwr's daughters, Alice, had lived. Mr Skidmore told us that he (Glyndŵr) spent his last days there and eventually died there. It was a family secret for 600 years and even Mr Skidmore's mother, who died shortly before we visited, refused to reveal the secret. There's even a mound where he is believed to be buried at Monnington Straddle."

As one can see, the quotation marks are incorrect. Can someone more familiar with the subject, and the source of the quote, fix the quote to make it accurate? Thanks. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The quote is also self-contradictory; if Skidmore's mother refused to reveal the secret then how did Skidmore know? Pbhj (talk) 23:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
It means that she refused to reveal it publicly I expect. Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 17:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

This whole section should be tagged [CITATION NEEDED], at best it's a self important puff piece by Adrien Jones, the president of the The Owain Glyndwr Society. Or at worst it's a total fabrication. 22:38, 29 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.164.156 (talk)

Fall of Richard II[edit]

In Wales, people like Owain were asked for the first time in their life to decide their loyalties. The Welsh were traditionally supporters of King Richard, who had succeeded his father, The Black Prince, as Prince of Wales. With Richard removed the opportunities for advancement for Welsh people were suddenly severely limited. Many Welsh people seem to have been uncertain where this left them and their future.

I really can't believe that this was Owain's first chance to change his loyalties - perhaps the first chance to break from loyalty with their King? Also, use of "Welsh people" sounds like this affected the populous - we're talking about landowners, nobles, ruling classes, not just "Welsh people". Why had their opportunities to weasel in with the crown changed, they still had money, power, land, control of people - the things kings want more of? Pbhj (talk) 23:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing certain known after... 1412? 1415?[edit]

The last line of Owain Glyndŵr#The Rebellion Founders says:

The Annals of Owain Glyndwr taken from the medieval manuscript Panton MS. 22 finish in the year 1422. The last entry regarding the prince reads:
1415 - Owain went into hiding on St Matthew's Day in Harvest (September 21), and thereafter his hiding place was unknown. Very many said that he died; the seers maintain he did not.

The first line of the next section, Owain Glyndŵr#Disappearance and Legacy, says:

Nothing certain is now known of Owain after 1412.

Should the latter be changed to "Nothing certain is now known of Owain after 1415."? 58.8.4.177 (talk) 06:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Glyndŵr Rising[edit]

I suggest to create a new page Glyndŵr Rising, and to transfer the content of the The Welsh Revolt, 1400–15 paragraph (and some other parts of the article) to the new page.

The section is becoming to large to be part of this biography, and the revolt merits its own page. --Luxem (talk) 10:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and created Glyndŵr Rising. I'll wait a few days before removing superfluous content from Owain Glyndŵr.
What do you think ?--Luxem (talk) 08:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
It's a major piece of work, fair play. Any chance you can stuff it full of referenced sources? It adds credibility. This period is called the 'Last War of Independence' by Cambria, amongst others. It has a nice ring to it and, to be fair, it was a lot more than just a 'revolt'. There were plenty others of those. Daicaregos (talk) 16:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Lost the infobox?[edit]

I'm not getting the nice info-box with the picture of Owain IV showing on my system (Firefox on XP Home). Instead of the infobox, all I'm seeing is "1. REDIRECT Template:Infobox Celtic Royalty". And I seem unable to correct it, no matter what I do in "Edit" and "Preview" (though some trickery proves to me that the infobox itself is working). I don't have this problem at Rhys ap Gruffydd, Llywelyn the Great or Caratacus - but I do have the same thing at Hywel Dda! Are other people getting this problem, is this a moth? TomRawlinson (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I get the same message ("1. REDIRECT Template:Infobox Celtic Royalty"). Daicaregos (talk) 15:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The infobox has apparently been moved from "Infobox Welsh Royalty" to "Infobox Celtic Royalty", but people haven't fixed the double redirect. I have done so, and will take a look at Hywel, too. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 15:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Daicaregos (talk) 15:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
It wasn't just Welsh Royalty which had been moved, but Breton Royalty too. I've got rid of all the double-redirects, so all should be OK now. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 22:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Owen Glendower[edit]

As this is the english language Wikipedia, the title should be changed to the english version. GoodDay (talk) 23:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

See discussions at Llŷn Peninsula and elsewhere on Wikipedia GoodDay, this is the way its done. --Snowded TALK 07:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
There is, indeed, some brief discussion above, on this very page. In any case, the point is that standard practice on English Wikipedia is to use the form currently favoured in reputable English-language sources; and modern historians writing in English almost always spell the name Owain Glyndŵr (or even Owain Glyn Dŵr). They sometimes mention Owen Glendower as an alternative form, but in the main this form seems to have gone the way of Boadicea. garik (talk) 11:55, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Guys ... WP:DFTT. Daicaregos (talk) 12:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Thats a bit unfair. GoodDay likes stirring things up and mainly comments rather than editing per see but he's not a Troll --Snowded TALK 12:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
GoodDay is well aware of the Wikipedia naming conventions for non-English names. He was involved only recently in inappropriate attempts to rename articles about Irish subjects (e.g. Talk:Conradh na Gaeilge#Requested Move, Talk:Foras na Gaeilge and Talk:Seachtain na Gaeilge) where, if he wasn't aware of policy previously, he would have been left in no doubt afterwards. Further, he has provided no research for his POVy assertion and didn't even refer to the first section on this Talk page, which already dealt with the 'issue' he raised. GoodDay may not always be trolling, but WP:DUCK is appropriate here. Daicaregos (talk) 14:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Which am I, a fascist or a troll? Perhaps my memory eludes me, but I don't recall moving this article or making an official request for its move (in otherwords I didn't choose to be WP:BOLD). TBH, I've never seen this fella's name spelt the way it currently is, I've always seen it as Owen Glendower. If there's not gonna a be a consensus for 'movement', then that's the end of it. PS: I'm not gonna be bullied around. GoodDay (talk) 15:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I did make a major mistake (apparently) in bringing the name issue up. I forgot to check the history of this article's talkpage. My apologies for that. GoodDay (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Not once did anyone mention it was Shakespeare who came up with the Anglicization version for his English-Speaking audiences. Really now! --Nutthida (talk) 01:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Unreferenced[edit]

The article states More recently, Owain has joined the long list of failed opponents to English rule in the British Isles to be adopted as a symbol by current nationalist movements. Rather than simply remove this currently unreferenced sentence, can somebody perhaps provide a citation? --HighKing (talk) 14:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

As far as I am aware HighKing its not the case, yes he is seen as an inspiration, one movement was named after him but its simply not an accurate statement --Snowded TALK 15:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Object to the tearm "failed" in a greater context because he most certainly had successes. --Nutthida (talk) 00:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Numbering[edit]

I removed the reference in the lead to Owain Glyndŵr "also sometimes styled Owain IV of Wales ... by modern historians". It is possible he may be. But none I've read. The claim is uncited and not mentioned anywhere else in the article, which is against WP:NOR and WP:LEAD. Daicaregos (talk) 11:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Section needs to be entirely re-written.[edit]

Wikipedia is not a platform for unfounded nationalist sentiment. In particular, "The rebellion founders" section is particular riddled with un-sourced POV, weasel words and deliberately placed text, meant to paint the English in an entirely negative (though true Henry IV was not very nice, but not just to the Welsh) picture while the Welsh in a wholly good one. Sort it out. --Nutthida (talk) 00:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I've done some work on it, but kept the fact the Welsh had better military success than the English and all that, as it may well be true. Also removed some stuff that was oddly placed, just language not POV. Also some over-linking. Honestly, Owain Glyndŵr to me was a fascinating character and I have certainly nothing against him - but that section was hilariously POV. If someone tried to paint Henry IV in a similar light but from a pro-English POV, I would crush it with equal measure! There also seems to of been sources further up in the article that would appear good for a few other sections without references too. --Nutthida (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Looking on the page of Henry IV, it states he was very ill through large period of the Rebellion, possibly unable to give direct orders. It would be interesting to clarify if his son was controlling the machinery of government by then, as lot more weight is put on a possibly ill Henry IV. Anyway, hope this has been helpful! --Nutthida (talk) 01:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Modern legacy[edit]

The Modern Legacy section begins: "Owain is perhaps best remembered outside Wales as the mysterious Welshman of 'Owen Glendower' in Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1 ... ". It is uncited, and may be the author's opinion. Unless a reference is produced for the assertion that he is 'best remembered' for this, it should be removed. Daicaregos (talk) 12:37, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

No objection, so comment removed. Daicaregos (talk) 14:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

BIAS with no citations[edit]

More or less this entire article is riddled with bias with very little citation. There seems to be fleeting mention of the catastrophic defeats of the Welsh at Grosmont and Pwll Melyn by smaller English forces or the instrumental counter insurgency campaign headed by John Talbot (a formidable English soldier in his own right). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.68.109 (talk) 10:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello. If there's a part of the article that you think could be improved, why not take a crack at fixing it yourself? You're welcome to have a go. If you're not up to it, but know of some good sources that could be used to improve the article, you could list them here on the talk page. That'd help to.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:31, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Ancestry: Why no women?[edit]

I am wondering why none of Owain's female progenitors are included in the ancestry chart. Even if we don't have much information about them, we do seem to have their names at the very least (e.g., Hunedd ferch Einudd, first wife of Maredudd ap Bleddyn and mother of Madog ap Maredudd). Is there a good reason that they have been omitted? Morwydd (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Cymraeg version of page[edit]

The current equivalent page in Welsh/Cymraeg (shown in the left hand navigation column) is incorrect - it should be (in the Welsh Wicipedia) Owain Glyn Dŵr whereas it is (in the Welsh Wicipedia) Llinach Owain Glyn Dwr. How can that be corrected? cheers Geopersona (talk) 09:34, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

You can change the interwiki links by clicking on "Edit Links" at the bottom of the list of languages, but in this case Wikidata has already got the correct link to Owain Glyn Dŵr. It appears to be some weird glitch as the cy link is correct on all other language versions of this article, and it appears only to be incorrect on the en Wikipedia. Probably worth asking at Wikidata. BabelStone (talk) 11:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
It's fixed now (problem was [here]). BabelStone (talk) 13:04, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

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What's the origin of the name Glyndwr?[edit]

Given it translates as "water valley" I'm presuming it's a place somewhere. This should be explained in the article. Zacwill (talk) 14:35, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

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Richard FitzAlan, 3rd Earl of Arundel.[edit]

I'm trying to make sense of this reference. I'm not sure that this particular Richard FitzAlan is the 3rd Earl of Arundel. I think he should be listed as the fourth or tenth? But even this is confusing as his son is listed as the fourth Earl of Arundel on his page but the link takes you to the fifth Earl of Arundel. Thoughts?

2601:85:4401:8F0:104D:F4C9:D81E:5EF6 (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Jason

Propose change of title[edit]

I propose a title change. The title should not include an accent. This is an English article and English does not use accents unless as a clear pronunciation aid, which in this case is not needed. The same for all references to the name in the body of the article. Consensus? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 13:31, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose. "Glyndŵr" is the correct spelling of his name. We do not convert e.g. é to e in French personal names, or ü to u in German personal names, so we should not convert ŵ to w in Welsh personal names. BabelStone (talk) 14:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose This a Welsh name, not an English one. Dimadick (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose per the above -----Snowded TALK 20:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - changing the article name to Owen Glendower. GoodDay (talk) 01:23, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
and do you also oppose the use of ü or é in German and French articles GoodDay? Or are you back to the BI and Country disputes of a decade ago?-----Snowded TALK 04:24, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I will not be bullied by you. GoodDay (talk) 13:04, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I asked you a question GoodDay. If you want I'll strike the second sentence although that was also a legitimate question -----Snowded TALK 17:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
With or without the diacritics, the current name is not recognizable to an 'english only' reader. We must keep in mind, that this is the English language Wikipedia. -- GoodDay (talk) 17:15, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
You are still not answering the question - would you remove diacritics on a German or French article? We also have "Owen Glendower" redirects here" right up at the start of the article and a link to pronunciation. I'm also pretty sure the average English reader would not recognise or be able to pronounce the various place names that follow.-----Snowded TALK 19:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I support the removal of diacritics, while recognizing that it's out of my hands whether they're kept or not. GoodDay (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Some sources say articles are pronunciation aids, and do not affect the spelling. This seems to make sense and if true it negates arguments about using the 'correct' spelling. It also explains why accents can prudently be used in some French and German words. In the case of Glendwr its use is pointless because an average English speaker would have no idea what the pronunciation difference between a w and a ŵ is. However, even with French and German words on WP accents are overused and serve no purpose. Very many articles do not use them. There is a strong case for anglicising the name anyway seeing as Glendower is widely used in English. The policy used is for titles is [1] which requires independent, reliable English-language sources. Glendwr cannot be spelt with an accent in English, so, unless used as a pronunciation aid, an accent's use is not English and thus breaches WP policy. There seems to be a more RSs that do not use the accent so that would also indicate not using it. If more RSs use Gledower (to be checked and counted) then Glendower should be used. Is there anyone else who advocates breaching WP policy? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:17, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose removing accents from non-English personal names. Either change to Anglicised name of Owen Glendower, or leave as is. There is no halfway house. E.g. Siân Phillips: remove the circumflex? That would not make sense. Tony Holkham (Talk) 20:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

The circumflex on Siân should be kept, but only because it is a clear pronunciation aid, warning the average English speaker that the normal anglicised pronunciation would be totally wrong (see-anne) because common use pronunciation in English is 'sh-arn'. Its use does not, therefore, contradict the name change suggestion. With Glendwr this does not apply. Most 'difficult' Welsh placenames have an anglicised pronunciation so the use od diacritics to aid pronunciation does not apply, unless their use is an attempt to make english speakers pronounce Welsh place names as in the Welsh language, which is wp:POV and contrary to WP naming policy. And on this topic and about French accents, how is Montreal written on the English WP article? Yes, no diacritic. Why? Because in English it is not needed as a pronunciation aid. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

The circumflex in Glyndŵr and Siân is not there to aid pronunciation (there are other ways of doing that); it is there because it is correct. The same argument applies to both. Montreal is a red herring precisely because it is the name of the place in English. Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:23, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

You'll have to do better than arguing that something is correct because it is correct, or that something that contradicts your argument is a red herring so can be ignored. The only way English can have a circumflex above a w is as a pronunciation aid (already discussed by me as not applicable, without counter-argument), or, as you might be trying to argue, if it is a loan word. That means it is not being written in english because english has no version of it. This is a grey area because most loan words gradually become assimilated to the point of being english words with a foreign origin, like most of the language. Place names almost everywhere have an English version. 1/ Glyndŵr = Welsh language' 2/ Glendwr = English language with unusual spelling due to its foreign origin/or Welsh language correctly spelt but with the usual diacritic missing. 3/ Gledower = unambiguously English language. Seeing as the title must be in the English language, only options 2/ and 3/ are available unless pronuciation is an issue, which it is not, but if it were option 1/could possibly be used. Would all those editors with a subtle, and some less than subtle, leaning towards pushing a pro-Welsh agenda, please focus on WP policy and WP guidelines. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 01:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

IMHO, the solution is to move the article title to Owen Glendower. GoodDay (talk) 01:27, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

As a rough guide to common use in English, google search gives the following hits - Owen Glendower 135,000

Owain Glyndŵr 144,000 Owain Glyndwr 205,000 Owen Glendwr 205,000 Owain Glendower 18,100 Roger 8 Roger (talk) 01:56, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Given the lack of a clear winner there the argument is even stronger for using the correct spelling -----Snowded TALK 04:28, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is not correct Snowded. Obtaining consensus was an attempt by me to be courteous and to avoid an inevitable edit war, but nothing more. Consensus is not needed because the use of the diacritic is a breach of wikipedia policy, and policy cannot be overridden by consensus, as you undoubtedly know. The title change will shortly occur because it is currently a policy breach. Your personal views are welcome on this talk page, with constructive contributions even more so, but at this stage they do not extend to much more than ever louder cries of 'that's the correct spelling', while the spelling argument was now been dealt with and has fading into history. Can you please let us know why use of Owain Glyndŵr is not a breach of policy but avoid saying 'because it isn't.' Roger 8 Roger (talk) 04:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

It is of course generous of you to agree to consult experienced editors on this matter and your courtesy on article discussions relating to the various nations that make up the UK is as ever warmly appreciated. However if you read policy on this you might notice the phrase 'neither encouraged or discouraged' and in respect of sources "If there is no consensus in the sources, either form will normally be acceptable as a title". Then there is the very specific reference to their use in Irish names in the final paragraph along with an admonishment not to "over-dramatising these issues". Saying that the title change will happen regardless of discussion here probably comes into that category and I recommend that you wait for the matter to be resolved here. -----Snowded TALK 05:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Filing this under "storm in a teacup"; have fun. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:02, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Surely that should be "storm in a cup Tony?SovalValtos (talk) 10:21, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Absoluly, SV. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:44, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment. Shall we gather evidence of the preferred usage in English-language reliable sources? Please feel free to add to my list below. Ham II (talk) 10:53, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Most modern practice is to use Glyndŵr or at least in most of the books and articles I had read on the subject and your brief summary confirms that, the English misspelling is largely deprecated these days. Davies deserves to appear twice and is probably the main authority. -----Snowded TALK 08:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Snowded, I knew there was meat on the bone there if only I looked hard enough. I will now go to sleep, comforted by the knowledge that I might have changed a strongly oppose to a maybe. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 11:02, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

You should open this discussion into an RM. GoodDay (talk) 11:49, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I'd respect that comment more if you had the decency to admit (or even strike) your earlier completely false statement about policy.-----Snowded TALK 04:59, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Ghmyrtle, useful but not definitive because they are guidelines. I think this is where we should look for absolute certainty. [2]. It is policy, so overrides guidelines, and deals with precisely what we are talking about here. To paraphrase what is already short and sweet, the title should be what is commonly used and most recognisable in English language sources. Simple! Foreign words, loan words, diacritics, all are fine if they are commonly used in English language reliable sources. Next step is to decide which of the many variation of Owain Glyndwr to use. That is less simple, but it is easy in the sense that that is all we need to decide on - which is the most commonly used and recognisable version? My view is that Owain Glyndŵr is a contender but certainly not first, because it is less recognisable that, say, Owain Glyndwr. I think the use of a circumflex is bordering on agenda pushing, making it non neutral, making it a policy breach again. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:08, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I have formally listed this page for a requested move, so this can be properly evaluated and consensus evaluated in the correct format. Please comment in the next section.--Nilfanion (talk) 15:46, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 12 June 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the article to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 07:59, 19 June 2018 (UTC)


Owain GlyndŵrOwain Glyndwr – Case has been made in thread above that the diacritic should not be used in English language spelling. This is a procedural listing, so correct process is followed to close above discussion - no personal comment on the case. Nilfanion (talk) 15:46, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose proposed move, because in my opinion it is not the correct Welsh spelling without the circumflex. I would weakly support moving the page to Owen Glendower to satisfy enWP on "naturalness" (note that this is a goal, not a rule) and special characters. (And I have no "Welsh agenda", as has been suggested). Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I can see no reason to change this page other than some people's dislike of diacritics. As someone who works on German topics, I certainly don't want to set the precedent that diacritics are removed from correctly spelled names. English uses diacritics in foreign words and names. Not always, but frequently enough that I can see no reason to start removing them when they are used in reliable sources.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the above and earlier evidence of modern use in english language reliable and authoritative sources. The most authoritative - the Welsh Acadamy's Encyclopaedia of Wales (written in English) p322 of the 2008 edition uses Glyndŵr -----Snowded TALK 21:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - those diacritics mean nothing to an english-only reader. This is English Wikipedia, not Welsh Wikipedia. I'd rather we use Owen Glendower, but I guess that's not one of the options here. GoodDay (talk) 21:25, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Owen Glendower is already a search option, and redirects here: an argument for leaving this title as it is, I think. Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose change per WP:DIACRITICS, WP:DIVIDEDUSE, etc. Owain Glyndŵr is the correct name, and we should use the correct name rather than an incorrect name. Per Ermenrich, "English uses diacritics in foreign words and names....", and it it is incorrect to suggest otherwise. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:51, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support The only consideration in deciding is [3]. As there is no clear form of the name in RSs, I consider other factors, as advised in the WP policy just linked, and IMO on balance Owain Glyndwr is best to use here. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:30, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Most reputable sources use the diacritic mark, following Welsh orthography. Should Albrecht Dürer be changed to Albrecht Durer as that diacritic mark means nothing to an English-only reader, and this is the English Wikipedia, not the German Wikipedia? Ham II (talk) 20:16, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
A quick search of RSs, Ham II shows a variety. Some even mix and match, such as BBC History. And, a simple majority is not good enough - there needs to be a firm preference, such as 80-20. Also, you totally miss the point (or do you? :-)): diacritics or not is irrelevant: RS usage is what counts. If EL RSs wrote Tokyo in a Japanese script that is what we have to use. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:47, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Unless you're using a different list of RL by Ham II than I am, he only found a few RL for Glendwr without the accent, whereas the variantion in the other sources was whether Glendŵr is one or two words.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:52, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I search without the diacritic and on page one got [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]. All seem pretty good sources to me, with a variety of spellings. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:15, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I would think that scholarly sources would be given more weight here. Also, [9] actually has the accent when the Welsh name is given in the text. That means that the majority of the links you've posted actually use the circumflex.--Ermenrich (talk) 23:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Scholarly sources should be given more weight, which is why I said "reputable" sources. Ham II (talk) 06:38, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
A large part of people missing ŵ and ŷ on the web is due to poor keyboard input layouts, which make them quite hard to find. I would be cautious about assuming it is acceptable or even user preference to ignore them on the basis of finding examples where they are missing. Jim Killock (talk) 13:49, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Why? Seeing as we are looking for common usage, many might say that academic scholarly sources should be given less weight. Are you saying that a weighty tome put together by a stuffy academic locked away in a library in a small university somewhere in the back country is likely better to reflect a word's common usage than, say, the BBC, The Guardian, local newspapers, an so on? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:34, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
I'll have you know that Aberystwyth is very nice at this time of year and that many of it's library are occasionally unlocked. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:41, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it should be changed to Albrecht Durer, for those reasons. GoodDay (talk) 21:30, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
That's frankly ridiculous, and is against the useage of both English-language dictionaries and encyclopedias.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
The diacritic marks in Dürer, Cézanne, etc., are all part of English-language usage. In the preceding sentence I wasn't briefly slipping into German or French. Ham II (talk) 06:38, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
They are borrowed or loan words which are certainly part of English usage, but that does not make them English words. The argument is pointlessly circular, and also irrelevant. Common use is what matters. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:34, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Aren't you still under a topic ban from Arbcom in respect of campaigning to remove diacritics from article GoodDay? If not apologies, if so this a good will post to allow you to remove edits :-) -----Snowded TALK 22:24, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
That ban (and following probation) expired long ago. Would've appreciated it though, if you had asked me at my talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 00:14, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
How long is that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:34, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Ban was lifted about two years ago. GoodDay (talk) 13:22, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
That's hardly yesterday, so I think we should disregard it. One could learn to love diacritics in next to no time. -- yours, Dire Critic Mark 123 (talk) 13:32, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose: nothing wrong with the little to bach, even in English, bien sûr. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose we only strip the names of blonde Serbian female tennis players. Not blonde, not Serbian, not female. So follow normal en.wp practice. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is the common spelling. Anglicisations of Welsh names (Carnarvon vs Caernarfon has become widely deprecated, on public signage, on maps, in books, etc, because there is greater awareness of the language. TBH this debate was had in the 1960s and Wikipedia doesn't need to revisit it. Jim Killock (talk) 13:44, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.