Talk:Palestinian territories

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search


This article has been mentioned by a media organization:
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Palestine (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic :Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Asia (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Western Asia (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Western Asia, which collaborates on articles related to Western Asia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Arab world (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Unrecognized countries    (Inactive)
WikiProject icon This article was within the scope of WikiProject Unrecognized countries, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.
 

The article states that "The Israel Defense Forces vacated Gaza in 2005, but invaded it again in 2006 in response to rocket attacks and the abduction of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit by Hamas." This is misleading as it implies Israel is still in gaza. Also it should mention subsequent wars with gaza. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.199.57.203 (talk) 14:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Disputed statement: East Jerusalem residents had the option of becoming Israeli citizens[edit]

Today Monosig added unsourced material to the article, including the following statement:

East Jerusalem residents became Israeli residents with blue Israeli ID cards, with the option of becoming Israeli citizens, which very few of them chose to do.

This assertion—that Palestinian Jerusalemites were offered the option of becoming Israeli citizens but rejected it—has been debunked many times because it is not supportable by reliable sources. It's nothing more than an urban legend, and I ask Monosig to remove it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

But thousands (a tiny minority) have applied over the years and received it. The residency tests are rigid (for instance people who moved from Hebron post-1967), but it's still applicable today. There's no way under Israeli law that it can be denied. But of course like everyone else, the Palestinian Jerusalemites do not accept the annexation and do not even vote in municipal elections (which are open for residents, not just citizens). Why is this contentious? Obviously Israel wanted to turn them into Israeli Arabs, but has been largely unsuccessful. What precisely has been debunked and where? Urban legend allegations are not appropriate here. Monosig (talk) 06:33, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Being allowed to apply for citizenship is entirely different from being given the option of becoming citizens. Your sentence gives the impression that all a resident had to do to get citizenship was to agree to it. No such opportunity ever existed, ergo your sentence is misleading. Zerotalk 07:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

>>>

"Being allowed to apply for citizenship is entirely different from being given the option of becoming citizens". Is this your surmise, opinion or fact based on source? Where have you ever seen evidence that 11th June 1967 East Jerusalemites and their descendants who maintained Israeli/East Jerusalem residency, are not entitled to Israeli citizenship if they apply for it? The fact that very few do, does not "debunk" the statement. They are entitled to live anywhere in Israel, if they wish to, just like Israeli Arabs who are all Israeli citizens. Monosig (talk) 23:38, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
My statement was an explanation of the English words. Lots of people who apply are rejected, so it is wrong to imply that citizenship is their's for the asking and your statement "There's no way under Israeli law that it can be denied" is simply false, in practice at least. Actual figures are hard to come by, but for example "there were 1,434 applications in 2012-13, of which 189 were approved, 1,061 are still being processed and 169 were rejected." [1] (Note how that's a 2015 article stating that the majority of applications made 2–3 years early were still being processed, it show how non-routine the procedure is.) Zerotalk 00:26, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Because they are largely Hebronites (and other West Bankers, but dominantly Hebron, Halhul etc) and their descendants, who moved in large numbers to Jerusalem between 1967 and the 1993-1994 Oslo Agreements, when that area became Area A of the PA. They make up a considerable proportion of the East Jerusalem population and their Israeli citizenship applications are routinely rejected. No argument - the Israeli East Jerusalem residency test is very stringent. Very few East Jerusalemites apply for Israeli citizenship, and many of the few that do moved there from the West Bank for that specific purpose. Hence the high rate of rejection. But that doesn't change the basic principle which was established in 1967 - when Israel wanted them to turn them into Israeli Arabs in order to cement the East Jerusalem annexation (an attitude which has now changed, certainly with regard to outlying Tzur Bahr, Sawarha etc which will probably be returned to Palestine), and they most definitely didn't. "Entitled to apply" and "entitled to citizenship" is just playing with words. Anyone can apply including the deputy mayor of Teheran, he's simply be rejected. Why not present the facts as they are, you're an objective Wikipedian aren't you? We can add that the residence tests are draconic and that very few of those that try actually succeed (referencing your sourced statistics). Monosig (talk) 18:40, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Palestinian loss of land map[edit]

Palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2010.jpg

Please add back the Palestinian loss of land map. It is an accurate map (as explained here) and helps to understand the changes in Palestinian territories through time. --179.208.195.33 (talk) 22:02, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

When I removed the map from this article, I wrote that it has "questionable provenance". That remains a problem. Although Mondoweisss published a similar map, the fact remains that nobody except the person who uploaded the map to Commons (in 2014) knows what the basis of the map is. Where did the data come from? Was it thoroughly checked? Please see WP:No original research#Original images, one of Wikipedia's policies, which says we can use images created by other Wikipedians "so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments". Since the person who uploaded the map to Commons in 2014 didn't say where they got their data, we don't know whether this map "illustrate[s] or introduce[s] unpublished ideas or arguments". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:11, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

>>>

It does not legitimately help to understand the relevant facts. It is a mish mash of land ownership (Israeli Arabs still own considerable land inside Israel!), the 1947 UN Partition Plan Resolution (rejected by the Arab states and Palestinian Arab leadership and never realized, therefore nothing was gained or lost), the quasi-sovereign division of territory between Israel, Jordan and Egyptian military rule 1949-1967, which has nothing to do with land ownership, and the 1993-1996 Oslo Agreements (ditto). For a POV website stating the plight of fhe Palestinians if might be legitimate but given that it compares the non-comparable, it cannot possibly appear in Wikipedia. Monosig (talk) 23:53, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
To address the point of Malik Shabazz, the Mondoweiss fact check and the uploaded map are functionally the same map. The exact same borders are depicted through each of the stages. It's simply in a different format. As for the allegations of Monosig, I suggest you read the Mondoweiss fact check on MSNBC's aired version of the map. While it doesn't address the point about Jordanian and Egyptian rule, which perhaps could be integrated into an updated version, your other arguments about "land ownership" isn't the same as "loss of land" in a political or national sense, which is what the map is depicting; all of Areas A and B aren't owned by Palestinians, for example some churches own a lot of land in East Jerusalem and Bethlehem, but that's not relevant to what the map is illustrating.TrickyH (talk) 09:08, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
It doesn't help your case, TrickyH, that Wikipedia doesn't consider Mondoweiss a reliable source for facts, that the two maps (on Wikimedia Commons and on Mondoweiss) are similar but not the same, or that Mondoweiss's defense of its map was written by the Institute for Middle East Understanding, which is not generally considered an unbiased source of facts. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:29, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
On the List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015, the following map is included, which depicts much the same division of the West Bank into Areas A, B and C. [1] If it's good enough to accept that Areas A and B only count as Palestinian land on that page, why isn't it acceptable to include the Palestinian loss of land map? Perhaps one needs to be drawn anew, synthesising these criticisms (ie showing Egyptian & Jordanian control, etc). TrickyH (talk) 06:01, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Because it's totally POV. The first map paints Jewish land ownership white - and all the rest green, including the entire virtually-unpopulated Negev Desert, where there was virtually no land ownership (of Mandate Palestinian Jews or Mandate Palestinian Arabs) at all. Fast forward to the Partition Plan, which was never realised and has nothing to do with land ownership - but the purpose is comparison! So it's deliberately misleading. Showing Israel's borders within the 1949-1967 Armistice Agreement lines is fair enough, except that the rest is shown as "Palestinian" when it was either annexed to Hashemite Jordan or occupied by Egypt. Finally it shows what appear to be the Oslo classifications, rendering Area C (and possible B) as "Israeli" and even bits of Gaza as "Israeli" in 2010 - when Israel withdrew to the recognized border in 2005 already, removing all the settlements (I'm referring to land issues not to the other aspects of the Israel-Gaza mutual hostility since Hamas ejected the PA in 2007 - blockade etc). Israel and the Palestinians agreed at various times to a 5% land swap, so once a political process is eventually renewed, these West Bank lands are not "lost", only occupied under belligerent occupation as defined in the laws of war (the Palestinian position). In short - these maps can simply not appear in Wikipedia, whatever their provenance! What I'm saying above is entirely non-POV, and I'm sure that the various Israeli-Palestinian 1948-2016 land control issues (sovereignty, ownership, physical control) can be shown correctly. Monosig (talk) 19:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 June 2016[edit]

The cost of the occupation for Israel over 40 decades (1967-2007) should be either 40 years or 4 decades 64.110.255.16 (talk) 02:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this error to our attention. I just fixed it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:58, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Palestinian territories. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 12:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)