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Review: October 5, 2014. ( ).
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- 1 Talent
- 2 Falling asleep in a wheelie bin
- 3 Photo
- 4 OCD
- 5 Dubious information
- 6 Discontinuous?
- 7 Alcoholism and wifebeating
- 8 French surname?
- 9 Mental health issues
- 10 Spurs
- 11 Gazza picture
- 12 Smoker
- 13 Merge Jimmy 'Five Bellies' Gardner here?
- 14 Personal life section
- 15 Personal life
- 16 L'enfant terrible
- 17 GA Review
- 17.1 Lead
- 17.2 Early life
- 17.3 Newcastle United
- 17.4 Tottenham Hotspur
- 17.5 Lazio
- 17.6 Rangers
- 17.7 Middlesbrough
- 17.8 Later career
- 17.9 International career
- 17.10 Managerial and coaching career
- 17.11 Other projects
- 17.12 Personal life
- 17.13 Struggles with alcoholism, drug addiction and mental illnesses
- 17.14 Career statistics
- 17.15 Honours
- 17.16 Summary
- 18 Pneumonia
- 19 picture
Why is there nothing discussing how this man was the greatest English attacking player of all time? I think the whole "Gazza is a loon" angle has been overdone now - time to take a step back and with the hindsight only time gives us, recognise this man for his positives as well as his negatives.
- which parts do you feel should be altered, due to the course of time? Monkeymanman (talk) 18:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Falling asleep in a wheelie bin
There was a headline on the Sunday Sport (I think) yesterday, with 'Gazza falls asleep in Wheelie bin'. Does anyone hae a link or conformation on this, as I cant find it on their website?
Knowing the Sunday Sport it's probably not true!
I think this article deserves a photo. I would put one up but wouldn't know where to start. Can anyone help us out? Alec McEnemin 20:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. One with him wearing fake tits would suit best I believe.
Here is a good photo http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg16/gusintheuk2/paul-gascoigne-192_667988e.jpg
It just needs someone who is auto-confirmed to upload it.
That's an awful, cynical picture. Whoever chose it is using their POV on the man. I'm sure people looking at him like this, is not helpful
Caps and goal figures in the article likely contain European cup/Domestic cup data in addition to Domestic League data (this is very certain based on this user's previous edits containing similar information . Please correct this issue and leave a note here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alfmaster#Footballers.27_European_goals, to warn this person about putting improper information on Wikipedia. --Palffy 21:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, info on Gascoigne now looks legit to me. --Palffy 01:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
He was discontinuous? What does that mean? Must be British English, it doesn't make any sense to me. --Awiseman 14:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Alcoholism and wifebeating
For more see: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article447507.ece - extract from his book, if that counts. See 'October 1996' DanGravell (talk) 13:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I blame William the Conqueror.
Mental health issues
Do we really need to state the exact dates of his entering and leaving hospitals for mental health problems? It seems unnecessarily detailed to me, and frankly a bit invasive of his privacy (and is, in any case, unreferenced). It would probably be sufficient to say 'since 2008, he has been sectioned several times under the Mental Health Act'. We have a useful essay that applies here: WP:BASICHUMANDIGNITY. Terraxos (talk) 22:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Can someone please put up a better picture of Gazza ? ...... I know everyone thinks of him as a laughing stock, and likes to see him looking the worse for wear, but does he really deserve the terrible picture ?
He was after all an extremely talented Man who just happened to lose his way in life ..... He deserves some dignity . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- i am currently trying to do so but it must meet wiki standards which is proving a problem, (i.e. be freely licensed), do you have one yourself?(Monkeymanman (talk) 19:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC))
I really do not believe the current caption to this photo on the article page which says he's at some exhibition/fair at the NEC - looks more like a webcam shot from his spare room.22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:02, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think he also enjoys fast foods. Is that worth mentioning. Monkeymanman (talk) 17:03, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Definitely, enjoying fastfood is in itself notable! raseaCtalk to me 17:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Great! I will spend the next 3 months going through every fast food junkies BLP and updating them. Monkeymanman (talk) 18:06, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Normally someone enjoying fast food and smoking wouldn't be noteworthy, but for Gazza it demonstrates how his lifestyle wasn't condusive to getting the best out of his talent, so it's worth included (sourced accurately, of course).--MartinUK (talk) 18:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Definitely, enjoying fastfood is in itself notable! raseaCtalk to me 17:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Merge Jimmy 'Five Bellies' Gardner here?
The article on Jimmy 'Five Bellies' Gardner has been prodded (twice) and redirected here (then reverted). There was a mergeto template on it before I redirected it, but not a mergefrom template here. So we need to come to a consensus: should the article: redirect to here; stay as it is; or go to AfD. Thoughts please. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 19:30, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- I think it should just stay as it is because it's linked to from Charlie Miller's page and it wouldn't make much sense for that to point to Gascoigne. I mean, it's pretty marginal, but it's not like the internet is going to run out of room for bios. Grace Note (talk) 09:20, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's less a case of the internet running out of space, and more a case of Wikipedia biographies of living people meeting the notability guidelines. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 09:30, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- No to a merge, weak keep as-is. 09:49, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
The guy is a nonentity, and appears to have done nothing noteworthy. Wikipedia has deleted articles of people who HAVE achieved single noteworthiness, on the grounds single noteworthiness is insufficient, so there's double standards going on here, surprise surprise................126.96.36.199 (talk) 16:44, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Personal life section
I don't think information in the personal life section should be removed just because some of it is taken from tabloid sources. All the information is confirmed by other sources. Last year I saw Gazza on stage in his touring show and he talked extensively about his overdose on alcohol in September 2008, his drug overdose in November 2010, his financial problems and his general battle with drugs and alcoholism. It would be fair to say that Gazza is probably more famous now for his personal life than for his long ago footballing career, so it is only right that the article reflects both sides. (TommyAnders (talk) 21:42, 12 April 2012 (UTC))
- It already does. Kindly refrain from adding back BLP violations added by a banned editor. Material removed per WP:BLP stays out until there is consensus on the talk page for inclusion - see WP:IMPERFECT. 2 lines of K303 21:44, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- While the current version may need trimming down in addition, my objection to the new material is it's just largely more of the same. It's just one drunken incident after another, when we could easily just write a paragraph summarising his drink problems. Similarly with his money problems, since he hasn't been made bankrupt as far as I can tell. Those can be summarised instead of every single issue being dealt with at length. 2 lines of K303 22:05, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- Find a reliable source for such claims. Sans a source, the above post will likely be a WP:BLP violation. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:39, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- jesus wept
I tried removing clearly non-salient tidbits from that section, along with clearly editorial phrasing. Please look at each individual item before re-adding, as the ideal is to reach a sensible balance showing his weaknesses without going overboard into "50 cans of Red Bull" time claims. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:29, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Kind of surprised that this phrase isn't in the article, nor some of his shenanigans which are certainly interesting, easy to source. Are there BLP issues involved? little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer 21:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Paul Gascoigne/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Okay, I am going to give this a go. I see parallels with Keith Moon - both men are widely appreciated for their talent in their respective fields, which has been overshadowed by drink and behaviour issues. With apologies for sounding morbid, half the time I go into my local shop I expect to see a headline on The Sun telling me he's died.
I've skimmed through the article and it looks pretty well written, so I don't forsee too many problems reviewing this. A lot of the article has been cited from his autobiography with Hunter Davies, which should be a largely acceptable source provided we skirt around any POV in it. It helps that he's been in the press so often, as editors will come along every now and again and aggressively remove any BLP violations that have a tendency to turn up. The "personal life" area will need close attention, and even some of the career aspects eg: Kettering Town management might benefit from being toned down a bit too.
Specific comments follow:
- Per discussions on the talk page, is that really the only decent free image we have?
- "a former English footballer" - what are these references to the Bournemouth Sunday League about?
- "and off-field problems" - can we be specific? To be honest, I think a better last sentence in the opening paragraph would be a brief summary of his career eg: 57 caps and years with England
- Worth mentioning where he grew up and briefly explain how he entered professional football
- "and was famously reduced to tears..." - I wondered if this was suitable for the lead? I can certainly remember it being all over the national news and infamously lampooned on Spitting Image the day it happened, but is it really a significant stand out part of his career? (Feel free to disagree on this)
- "especially during his various run-ins with the law in 2008–2010" - I don't think the problems really started in 2008 and finished completely in 2010. Probably best to just say "especially since leaving professional football"
- I don't know what's required for the infobox to be correct; perhaps a WP:FOOTY regular like GiantSnowman can advise
- "before boyhood club" - what do you mean by this specifically?
- When exactly was the hit and run incident?
- "knocked down by a car" - to avoid an easter egg link, suggest "killed in a traffic collision"
- Do we need to wikilink "twitches" as tic?
- "gaming machines" - could do with a link to fruit machine
- "Death made another appearance in his life" - this sounds a little too whimsical, suggest "Gascoigne experienced further tragedy"
- The second paragraph says "He was signed on as an apprentice at Newcastle on his sixteenth birthday", while the last paragraph says "At the age of 15, he took the decision to provide for his family". I think this needs to be copyedited around so everything flows nicely in chronological order.
- Newcastle United is already linked earlier in the article
- It is worth a brief explanation of what Vicarage Road is, or possibly qualify this as an "away" match?
- "a further two-year option clause written into the contract." - don't need "written into the contract" - we already know we're dealing with this from the previous sentence
- "he took the place of Chris Waddle, who had been sold in the summer" - sold to which team?
- "Gascoigne was featured on the front cover of the Rothmans Football Yearbook" - how is that significant exactly?
- The club's 17th place in the 1986-87 league needs a citation
- "He continued to impress in the 1987–88 season, and in a 0–0 draw..." - there seems to be a clash of prose here. I wouldn't call a 0-0 draw "impressive", and I'm not sure the infamous incident with Vinnie Jones is either. We know (or at least can infer) that he stayed at Newcastle that year, so I'd probably just chop out the bit before "in a 0-0 draw"
- "a much-publicised photograph Jones" - this needs a comma
- "for a British record fee" - shouldn't it be "for a record British fee"?
- "In his first season at White Hart Lane he helped" - for the opening sentence in a section, I'd probably explicitly say "Gascoigne"
- "Terry Venables's" - is that the right use of apostrophes?
- I think so --EchetusXe 17:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- "He was also named as Tottenham Hotspur's Player of the Year." - needs a citation
- "and North London derby rivals Arsenal – he scored the opening goal " - this bit here can probably be split into two sentences
- Do we have any other information about why he wanted to join Lazio?
- "an accident at a nightclub on Tyneside ruled him out" - the Guardian source given says it was a "skuffle", which implies more than an accident. And would "kept him out" fit better?
- "told by manager Dino Zoff to lose two stone" - for the benefit of non UK readers, would a conversion to pounds or kilos be useful?
- "extreme weight loss diet and succeeded in shedding the excess weight." - could we reword this sentence to avoid saying "weight" twice?
- "as they also lifted the Scottish Cup" - "won the Scottish Cup" would be better
- Heart of Midlothian should be linked in full for consistency with the other teams
- "He scored 19 goals in 42 appearances in all competitions, and was named as both PFA Scotland Players' Player of the Year and SFWA Footballer of the Year." - needs a citation
- "following an incident with Morten Wieghorst" - mention he's a Celtic player
- "Gascoigne scored just three goals in 28 games and Rangers failed to win any trophies, losing the league title to Celtic." - need a citation
- "defeat to Chelsea at Wembley, in which he came on as a substitute" - may be simpler to say "defeat to Chelsea at Wembley, where he came on as a substitute"
- "He played seven games in the First Division, helping "Boro" into the Premier League as runners-up to Nottingham Forest at the end of the 1997–98 season." - unsourced
- "to Aston Villa at the Riverside Stadium, he subsequently" - this should be split into two separate sentences here
- "Gascoigne scored on his début" (for Gansu Tianma) - suggest "scored in his first match"
- "and he never returned to the club" - the ESPN source puts it more strongly, they gave him an ultimatum to come back or be in breach of contract
- "citing professional reasons including his coaching career, effectively ending his career" - can this be reworded so "career" is not mentioned twice. And can we really say his playing career was definitely over in 2004, 36/37 is certainly getting towards the end of a professional playing career but it's not impossible to go on for a few more years.
- "In August 2014, Gascoigne came out of retirement to sign for Bournemouth Sunday League Division Four team Abbey" - This needs another source. Frankly, this seems like a drunken joke helping a friend out, rather than any serious return to professional football in any capacity
- "He went on to win 13 caps for the under-21s under Dave Sexton." - needs a source
- "and had a hand in the other three" - "had a hand in" sounds a bit colloquial. Presumably this means he was instrumental in setting up the ball so somebody else could score?
- "topped their group" - this is a easter egg link and it isn't obvious to the reader where the link will go to
- "he made another assist" - is "assist" the right word to use here?
- "In extra-time he found Gary Lineker" - this doesn't scan right, had he been looking for him for the previous 90 minutes wondering where he was on the pitch? ;-)
- "fuck off Norway" - worth adding the immediate response to this remark? (The Independent source has it)
- "Qualification ended badly for England, as they ended in third place behind Norway and the Netherlands and missed out on a place in the 1994 FIFA World Cup." - unsourced (though I know it's true)
- 1994 - years should not be linked
- "but by the time he returned to fitness Terry Venables" - this needs a comma after "fitness", otherwise it reads like he's "fitnessing" (!) Venables
- "The final of these games were played" - I think the sentence following this is too long and should be trimmed down a bit, as it's not directly relating to his England career (the off-field stuff is handled later)
- The 1996 goal against Scotland. Now I'm not a particularly big football fan but even I remember this vividly - but I still think the prose covering this is a little bit too long. I seem to recall the commentary was something like "Gascoigne ... oh brilliant ... oh yes", which was repeated on highlights and the evening news. Worth adding that as a quotation box if you can find a source?
- "Gascoigne was never to play for his country again, having won 57 caps and scored 10 goals." - needs a source (shouldn't be hard to find one)
Managerial and coaching career
- "Having already gained some coaching experience in China, he signed" - as per above use "Gascoigne signed" on first use
- The Metro and the Daily Mail are suspicious sources, the Daily Mail has come under strong criticism recently on WP:BLPN for its POV and track record of making up stories. Can you find a broadsheet source for this? I'd strongly advise you to as some editors will aggressively remove them if they spot them, particularly if they turn up on GAs
- "Previous manager Kevin Wilson was moved upstairs" - "moved upstairs" sounds like a colloquialism, is "promoted" a better word?
- "The club's owner" - mention Imraan Ladak specifically
- "He said that him appearing drunk in an interview with Sky News was due to his poor mental state, tiredness and prescribed medication" - this is cited to a YouTube link
- 1990 FIFA World Cup is already linked earlier, "1990 World Cup" will do here
- What makes digitalspy.co.uk a reliable source?
- The Soccer Aid appearances are (briefly) referred to in the accompanying picture, but not in the main prose
- Isn't the London Evening Standard a tabloid (ie: unsuitable for sourcing a BLP)?
- "in 2009 she published a tell-all book entitled Stronger: My Life Surviving Gazza. They divorced in early 1999" - these sentences sound the wrong way round. Put the divorce first, then the biography later
- Worth mentioning the Hunter Davies biography here?
- "Step-daughter Bianca" - don't need "Step-daughter", we know what their relationship is
- "In November 2008 Gascoigne, who had not filed any tax returns for more than two years, was faced with a bankruptcy petition over a £200,000 tax bill" - suggest "In November 2008, Gascoigne was faced with a bankruptcy petition over a £200,000 tax bill, having not filed any tax returns for more than two years".
- "On 25 May 2011 he avoided being declared bankrupt by the High Court in London" - worth mentioning he had owed £32,000?
- Could we add something about Gascoigne being a regular target for Spitting Image? We can then use File:Gazza and Gary Lineker's Spitting Image puppets.jpg
Struggles with alcoholism, drug addiction and mental illnesses
- I really don't like the name of this section, but I'm struggling to think of what else to call it. Fundamentally, it's correctly titled, the information is sourced, and we'd fall foul of the NPOV policy if we left it all out. How about "Mental illness and alcoholism"? Or maybe simply "Controversies"?
- Will need a source for this, but around 1996-97, I recall that Gascoigne was semi-frequently on TFI Friday and regularly socialised with Chris Evans and Danny Baker, usually over drink. That should go in somewhere, but not in this "controversial stuff" section
- "His autobiography Gazza: My Story, written with Hunter Davies, was published in 2004." - this can go up to the main section, as it's not directly about controversies
- "In 1998 he first entered sustained therapy sessions" - suggest "Gascoigne first entered therapy sessions in 1998"
- "He stayed at the clinic in Cottonwood, Arizona" - don't need "Cottonwood, Arizona" here, the previous sentence mentions it
- The section on the autobiography could do with a secondary source (such as a book review in a broadsheet) that backs up the details. His autobiography can't really be used to cite itself!
- "In February 2008 he was sectioned under the Mental Health Act after a possible suicide attempt" - the BBC News source given does not appear to mention the word "suicide" and per WP:BLP this must be removed immediately
- What makes www.rsssf.com a reliable source?
- A single source is given for the club performances. I assume this is a straight transcription from a table in the autobiography - can you confirm this?
- "Fourth place:world cup 1990" - I don't think this should be there (sounds like an IP did this while you weren't looking)
- The various awards could do with citations (relating to an earlier problem further up when they're listed against the relevant prose)
- There's quite a bit of work to do here, but aside from the unsourced end of paragraphs, most of it looks easy to fix, so I'll put the review on hold pending improvements. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:06, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I've had another look, and tidied up a few of the sources I was concerned about. I think all of my issues are resolved, and this really does look like a "good article" both in spirit as well as in letter, so I'm happy to pass the review now. Well done. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:56, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- He did not nearly die. He spent a couple of days in hospital. "The situation is that Paul is in hospital and he has got pneumonia," Armitage said. "That is about it really, it is no big deal.--EchetusXe 20:42, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Pneumonia is always life-threatening. (188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:47, 12 September 2016 (UTC))
- OK doctor. Still can't see why this brief spell in hospital is worth mentioning in the article.--EchetusXe 21:02, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Pneumonia is always life-threatening. (184.108.40.206 (talk) 20:47, 12 September 2016 (UTC))
Can someone change the picture? The guy's a real hero, and it's a bit disrespectful to show him at his worst, in my opinion. I have no doubts he probably reads his own page, now and again, and it's not nice to have such a personal/embarrassing picture on there.
It's like having a picture of William Shakespeare, sat on the toilet, taking a shit, as the bard's profile picture. I'm certain that event happened, every single day of his life, but it doesn't define who he is