Talk:Paul Ignatieff

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Old talk[edit]

The article says:

Ignatieff was the only top minister of the Tsar to escape execution by the Bolsheviks.

In what sense is this meant? Sergei Sazonov, who was Foreign Minister until 1916, escaped execution, as did Nikolai Pokrovsky, the last foreign minister of Tsarist Russia - and the Foreign Minister would surely be a "top minister". The last two tsarist prime ministers, Alexander Trepov and Nicholas Galitzine, also escaped execution. So did Vladimir Kokovtsov, who had been Prime Minister and Finance Minister until 1914. Pyotr Bark, the last Finance Minister, also survived. Of War Ministers, Vladimir Sukhomlinov survived and went to the west. Alexei Polivanov actually ended up joining the red army, but died of typhus during the Russo-Polish War. Dmitry Shuvayev stayed in Russia and survived until 1937, when he was executed in Stalin's purges - I'd say that doesn't really count as "executed by the Bolsheviks" which I would interpret as meaning "killed during the Civil War". Ivan Grigorovich, the last Tsarist Naval Minister, stayed in Russia until 1924, then moved to France, where he died. And that's just what I could find on Wikipedia. There's tons of Tsarist ministers who survived the Civil War era, either inside or outside Russia. john k (talk) 15:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pavel Ignatiev?[edit]

While this may follow some kind of standard form for Latinisation of his Russian name, surely we make a special case of Russian expatriates who adopted a particular "nonstandard" Latinisation upon their entry to the West?

The count's name was, as far as I know, consistently written "Paul Ignatieff" following his flight to Canada, and it is this spelling of the surname which his descendants employ. --Saforrest (talk) 21:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citing sources would be useful here (on all sides). If what you say is true, then it should probably be moved to Paul Ignatieff. john k (talk) 06:43, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 May 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved — Amakuru (talk) 09:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pavel Ignatieff → Paul Ignatieff – Ignatieff, who lived in Canada for the last 20 years of his life, called himself "Paul" in English, and this is the most common spelling of his name in English-language sources. This is well-attested to in legal documents (mostly related to border-crossing and travel) Genealogizer (talk) 19:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 00:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. TheSandDoctor (talk) 05:05, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Count Paul Ignatieff This resolves the unfortunate half original, half anglicised "Pavel Ignatieff" while making quite clear who is being spoken of. This seems to be how he self-identified. —A L T E R C A R I ✍ 01:25, 21 May 2017 (UTC) Oppose Patar knight's sources convinced me. It does seem both are used, but since there is a more recent Paul Ignatieff that also has received some media attention, best to use Pavel. 1 2 —A L T E R C A R I ✍ 04:43, 19 May 2017 (UTC) Support WP:UE —A L T E R C A R I ✍ 03:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would also support Count Paul Ignatieff. Genealogizer (talk) 03:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Based on the article, it seems like he is best known for his time as a Russian Cabinet Minister, so it makes sense to have it at the Russian name. familysearch.org is hardly a reliable source, and most sources tend to use the Pavel spelling. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 04:00, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Frederick the Great is best known for his time as the King of Prussia, but we don't call him "Friedrich der Große", so the argument that Count Ignatieff was best known for his time as a Russian Cabinet Minister is irrelevant. Wikipedia usually respects what people choose to call themselves, thus we don't have articles titled Bruce Jenner or Lew Alcindor. Ignatieff changed his name to "Paul" when he moved to Canada, and he is consistently referred to as "Paul Ignatieff" by his descendants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Genealogizer (talk • contribs) 04:40, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I added a signoff and removed the bolded "Support" you put to make it a little more clear that the comment came from the original proposer. I hope you don't mind. In other news, I changed my mind again! —the waverer—A L T E R C A R I ✍ 01:25, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We call Frederick the Great that because that's what English language sources predominately refer to him as, which is what is mandated by WP:UE. English language usage in this case favours "Pavel Ignatieff", which gets ~1100 Google Books hits, compared to ~500 for "Paul Ignatieff", ~175 for "Paul Ignatiev" and ~110 for "Pavel Ignatiev". A normal Google searches gives me ~1800 for "Pavel Ignatieff", ~1170 for "Paul Ignatieff", ~302 for Paul Ignatiev, and ~1370 for "Pavel Ignatiev". Even if this is not enough, UE specifically says to use the language most appropriate to the subject, which in this case would be Russian, since his claim to fame is as a Russian noble and politician, no matter how prominent his descendants were as Canadians. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 02:26, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We also tend to respect people's preferences for what they are called. Ignatieff chose to become Paul, and that is how his descendants refer to him. Genealogizer (talk) 02:48, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NAMECHANGES that means giving extra weight to the sources published after the name change, which in this would be presumably in the 1910s or 1920s, and doesn't change anything re: the sources, which slightly favour "Pavel." ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 06:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support, as we should go with the english version. GoodDay (talk) 05:59, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:UE and pre-Wikipedia sources. — AjaxSmack 01:11, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering that when I click the "Search lots of books" button on your link, it claims that "Pavel Ignatieff" and "Pavel Ignatiev" have never been used in the English language between 1880 and 2008, it doesn't seem like it's a very accurate indication of use in the English language. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 06:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - There are not enough uses of "Pavel" to register in the ngram. Look at the Google Books hits for "Pavel Ignatieff". There is only one source in the 50-item list that is in English and dates before 2009. Books like The Russian Album show up further down list but when you try to search for "Pavel Ignatieff" in the text, you find no results. Then search for Paul Ignatieff and you find numerous results. The numbers at the top of the Google Books page do not reflect what appears in the text in this case. — AjaxSmack 22:06, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Since there has been no further discussion since my last comment, I want to make it clear that the current title, Pavel Ignatieff seems to be largely a Wikipedia creation. It appears in very few sources prior to the popularity of this encyclopedia. — AjaxSmack 01:52, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.