Talk:Pierre St. Germain

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 00:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Pierre St. Germain was conscripted during an Arctic expedition? Source: https://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/mb_history/34/franklinhero.shtml "St. Germain and Adam, on 19 July requested their discharge, but Franklin refused, fearful of losing the expedition’s two best hunters. To prevent their ‘plan for eloping,’ Franklin conscripted them."
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/W. C. Renouf

Moved to mainspace by Generalissima (talk). Self-nominated at 03:13, 26 January 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Pierre St. Germain; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• "Conscripted" is a confusing word to use in this context. How about something like:
• ALT1: ... that Métis guide Pierre St. Germain was forced to remain with an Arctic expedition he considered too dangerous? Gatoclass (talk) 01:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Yeah that works. Generalissima (talk) 23:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
• Somebody needed to verify ALT1, thanks. Gatoclass (talk) 01:01, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Article is new enough and long enough. Sourcing appears reliable, no POV or copyvio concerns (Earwig percent is largely proper nouns or fairly generic phrases). I did a light CE of the first couple paragraphs to tighten up the prose, and tweaked one sentence about his presumed marriage date that bordered on SYNTH. Please be careful with writing those kinds of assumptions in wikivoice.
    Source verifies the citation; I reworded in the article from "conscripted" to "forced them to stay" for the same reason Gatoclass wanted the hook reworded. Actually, Gatoclass, how would you feel about including some description of St. Germain's role in the hook - "Metis guide" or something? It adds a little context, although it works all right without. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:57, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

He wasn't a guide, he was a voyageur (a type of fur trader) and interpreter. But after experimentation, I think the hook is better without either of those. Thanks for the review! Gatoclass (talk) 11:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware of his usual occupations, and I won't argue if you prefer the hook without the detail, but the article does explicitly say he was hired as a guide for this expedition. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

PMC, I'd be happy to go with "Metis guide", the problem is that it isn't sourced in the article, and is only mentioned in the lede. Further down, it says he was hired as an interpreter, and according to all the sources I had access to, that's how he is described. Generalissima, do you have a source that describes him as a guide for the expedition? Gatoclass (talk) 05:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Gatoclass; Houston, Houston, and Jackson (1997) calls him "Pierre, guide and interpreter for the first Franklin expedition". In the contexts of the early Arctic expeditions, guide and interpreter seem essentially interchangeable terms. Generalissima (talk) 05:10, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, but you still haven't added that to main body text, and it will need a cite. Gatoclass (talk) 14:32, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Named him as a guide in the body. Generalissima (talk) 16:13, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Added "Métis guide" to hook. All good now :) Gatoclass (talk) 17:24, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pierre St. Germain/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 15:41, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll get to this in the next few days. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: Any word on this? Sorry to bug. Generalissima (talk) 18:27, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Probably tomorrow or Monday - husband was unexpectedly home for this last week so spent more time with him... Ealdgyth (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Aww, that's very sweet! No worries, I was just checking in. Generalissima (talk) 21:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• I randomly googled three phrases and only turned up Wikipedia mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no sign of copyright violation.
• Spotchecks:
  • "Historical records indicate that St. Germain was married to a Métis woman named Lizette Sutherland, but no year of marriage is noted." is sourced to this source which supports the information
  • "Unable to live off the land due to winter conditions, 11 out of the 20 members of the expedition died before they could be rescued by hunters under the leadership of Akaitcho." is sourced to this source which supports the information
  • "The party turned east, charting several hundred kilometers of the Arctic coastline. Halting at Point Turnagain in late August, Franklin opted for the expedition to return via the Hood River." is sourced to this source which supports the information
• Lead:
  • "he settled in the Red River Colony in what is now Winnipeg." suggest "he settled in the Red River Colony at what is now Winnipeg."
    • Fixed. - G
• Early life:
  • "Historical records indicate that St. Germain was married to a Métis woman named" suggest we make it clear that the St Germain married to Lizette is the subject of the article, not the last mentioned St Germain who possibly was the subject's father.
    • Fixed. - G
• Coppermine expedition:
  • "They returned together to Fort Enterprise" is "together" St Germain and Wentzel or St Germain, Wentzel, and the two Inuit interpreters?
    • All four, clarified this. - G
• Later career:
  • conversion for "50 acres" into metric?
    • Done. -G
  • Can we name his children, since we mention them later?
    • Okay! - G
• Later life:
  • "Pierre's son Joseph married Marie Anne Plamondon." ... this is oddly placed - do we really need to know this? If you want the caption cited, just put it there, its okay to put a citation in a caption
    • Yeah, that's fair enough. - G

I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

• @Ealdgyth: Okie-dokie. That should be all the fixes. Generalissima (talk) 21:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

• Looks good, passing this now. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)