Talk:Pope Gelasius I

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The Roman province of Africa consisted of what is now Tunisia and Algeria. Therefore, Gelasius was probably a Berber and certainly not of sub-Saharan African ancestry.

One does not have to Sub-Saharan to be black. Look at the map of Nubia here in Wiki. The people are very dark and not Sub-Saharan. Biblical History shows the Egypians and Nubians/Ethiopians to be cousins. The Old Testament is riddled with black Africans. In the KJV: Gen 2:13, Amos 9:7, 2kings 19:9, Isaiah 37:9, Psalms 105:23, Psalms 106:22. I can go on. The "Original Catholic Encyclopedia" (which can be viewed online) lists Victor as of African descent. Not African born of Roman descent. Gelasius was listed born in Rome of African descent. This is clear as there would be no need to list him as Roman born of Roman descent. If Victor had been of Roman descent, it would have said born in Africa of Roman descent. The same clarity that was given to Gelasius albeit in reverse. It also states that Militiades was a native of Africa. You cannot be native to Africa and of a Roman colony birth at the same time. Also see "The Oxford Dictionary of The Popes" Oxford University Press copyright 1986. Tom 02/12/10

Image request[edit]

Please, no pictures of Tupac Shakur as Pope Gelasius. -Mydotnet 22:21, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Page move[edit]

I undid the page move because there is a Gelasius II (1118-1119) so "Pope Gelasius I" is the correct title. JYolkowski // talk 00:15, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Text reading "his celebrated catalogue of the authentic writings of the Fathers, together with a list of apocryphal and interpolated works, as well as the proscribed books of the heretics (Epistle xlii)" has been removed: see Decretum Gelasianum for the modern view of the later date of the so-called Gelasian decretal. The reference to the Epistle is spurious: see Epistle xlii. --Wetman 30 June 2005 03:35 (UTC)

_____ The Andromachus referred to in the text "Gelasius' letter to Andromachus, the senator" is a completely different person from the Andromachus appearing in the link. How do you fix that? (- 20060215 Master Marx)

At that time?[edit]

I'm a bit puzzled by this:

However, his being of African heritage does not prove that he was a black African, as at the time most natives of that continent's Mediterranean shores were not black.

Isn't the population of the north African countries still largely not black? As far as I know the only significant immigration occurred during the Arab conquest, and then perhaps after the European conquest. None of them -- Berbers, Arabs, Europeans -- are similar in skin tone to the sub-Saharan population. --Saforrest 16:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


Is there any evidence that the Kabyle as such existed in any knowable-to-us meaningful sense at the time? Is there any possible way to get from "romanus natus natione afer" to "Kabyle"?

I have no access to JStore, and there is no prospect of spending much time in libraries in the near future. However:

Wikipedia under this head (Kayble) has history beginning in about the C10

Poking around the internet I get the impression that there is evidence (archeological and historical) for the continuous presence in North Africa of a certain ethno-cultural group from some centuries bc (but this was a quick glance, I couldn't say whether there is evidence to the contrary) part of which people has been for some time now (self-)identified as "Kabyle"

Do we possess any traces of a Kabyle identity existing at the time of Gelasius?

Unless I am much mistaken (which is possible, I am the most average of punters in this field) the ONLY evidence for Gelasius' origins/birthplace/ethnic identity are the two phrases

romanus natus natione afer

I am no adherent of the "it's too interesting to be true" school: are there any traceable traditions or things of the sort? Otherwise, someone delete this word from the entry.

Berenike 21:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The Kabyle people, for centuries superficially Islamic, might have been Christians previously. Glora M. Wysner, The Kabyle People (New York) 1945, thought not. The connection with Gelasius is less than tenuous. --Wetman 03:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

--The Kabyle region no doubt existed during this time with much the same ethnic and cultural makeup as it does today. However, as much as I'd like this information about Pope Gelasius to be true, being half-Kabyle myself, I simply cannot find any evidence for the claim made here. That he originated from North Africa does not seem to be in doubt, but where does the evidence exist showing he comes from the Kabyle region of what is now Algeria? Chron 03:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I stumbled across this article previously and searched well for documentation to prove this. I could not find it. The best document I could find (The Three African Popes, which I referenced) did mention that there is some confusion about where he was born, but did not mention his ethnicity. I am not an expert on the Kabyle/Berber people, but I believe that it is a stretch to definitively say that this was his ethnic background. Stealthound (talk) 20:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Bread alone?[edit]

Gelasius decreed that the Eucharist had to be received "under both kinds", with wine as well as bread. As the Manichaeans held wine to be impure and essentially sinful, they would refuse the chalice and thus be recognized. Later, with the Manichaeans suppressed, the old method of receiving communion under the form of bread alone returned into vogue.

My understanding is that the western practice of administering the Eucharist to the laity under the form of bread alone did not start until the later Middle Ages; therefore, this last clause does not seem to make sense.

Papal styles of
Pope Gelasius I
Emblem of the Papacy SE.svg
Reference styleHis Holiness
Spoken styleYour Holiness
Religious styleHoly Father
Posthumous styleSaint

"Styling" Gelasius[edit]

The pious but historically naive "styles" in the non-informative box (illustration, right) seems to tell the reader to address Gelasius as "Your Holiness" upon arriving in Heaven, as an encounter is unlikely to take place in the sublunary real world. Historically it suggests that "His Holiness" was actually applied to Gelasius. That may be. This kind of thing is more appropriate to a Roman Catholic website. It makes a foolish intrusion at Wikipedia: are we to refer to "His Holiness"? --Wetman 14:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Concerning race/skin color[edit]

It seems that there is some debate concerning whether Gelasius was a black man; isn't this a debate significant enough to at least merit a MENTION in the article? Something neutral and simple, like "there is some debate as to whether Gelasius was black".

If there is an established, understandable reason why this hasn't been done, please explain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:54, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

There was once a section about it here, but it has been removed. - (talk) 23:39, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

African descent[edit]

"However, it could also mean that he was born in Rome of African descent". "African" in the sense natural to Romans, i.e. confined to the Roman provinces located in North Africa.

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