Talk:Portrait of a Woman with Mask

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 09:07, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This has been rejected by multiple independent reviewers a week apart from one another; there's no use continuing the discussion at this point. Considering the discussion of DYK tbans, it's best we don't keep this on DYKN.

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Portrait of a Woman with Mask by Rosalba Carriera
Portrait of a Woman with Mask by Rosalba Carriera

Created by JeBonSer (talk). Self-nominated at 23:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

JeBonSer, that's an interesting painting, on few but good sources, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed, and a DYK without it would miss the point. I find some things unusual in the article. I reduced overlinking myself, but please help me:
  1. The lead should be a summary! Not details about dimensions. Please have everything from the lead also in the body, with the ref in the body, and have only important facts in the lead.
  2. The link to the current city of Venice is not helpful, - what we need is a link to the Venetian art of a former period, and best with a year or two. At present, what the hook claims is not even in the article: that her work looks like something earlier. Not every reader will be versed in art history enough to know without being told.
  3. I believe that you could use the pdf for a reference.
  4. I don't read Italian besides being able to order from a menu, so can't tell if the English ref is just a translation of the Italian, in which case we'd need only one.
The hook has a bit of the same problem (as 2. above): as the painter is not named, an unprepared reader will not even see two periods in the pastel, at a glance at least. Best advice I can give: try an easier hook. The picture alone will attract, - it doesn't have to be super fancy. In article and hook, I'd like to see sooner that the creator was a woman, but that may be just me. I'd prefer her name in the hook rather than in the already long image caption. I will not approve a hook that says "us", - "we" and "us" don't belong in Wikipedia (unless in quotes). I removed a comma in the hook that broke the sentence. Please word a new hook below. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:04, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Gerda, the lead is EXACTLY the right place to put dimensions! Venetian painting could be linked, to the appropriate section. I agree the hook is odd. As usual with this nominator, the terrible English should be the first thing to mention " it is now currently displayed..." and so on. User:JeBonSer, "now" and "currently" mean the same thing. Johnbod (talk) 16:55, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Learning: For a piece of music, I wouldn't give duration and tempo markings in the lead, but the visual arts seem to be different. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1: ... that the Portrait of a Woman with Mask (pictured) by Rosalba Carriera has no exact date when it was being painted, but through a label at the back of the portrait this gives help to its keepers to trace its origins? Source: "Although the history of this pastel prior to its appearance on the antique market is unknown, its provenance from the Galleria Lorenzelli in Bergamo is documented by a label on the back of the work and by an estimate drawn up in Italian lire by Sotheby’s at an unspecified date, but presumably around 1999 since part of Intesa Leasing’s assets were sold to Iniziative Patrimoniali S.p.A. in the same year." Fondazione Cariplo Artgate
@Gerda Arendt:  Resolved. JeBonSer (talk | sign) 09:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for offering a new hook, but I confess I find it wordy. Perhaps I should leave reviewing to a native speaker. "date when it was being painted" is long for nothing, "gives help" could be simpler, and why mention "keepers" at all? Actually, the same is true for the article, just look at "The extraordinary skill of Carriera in arts can be easily seen in the portrait including Venetian painter's influence of the 18th-century Venetian style of paintings that can be easily recognised on this portrait." - duplications and saying something such as "extraordinary skill" as if a fact. I'm afraid if the article is trimmed to a concise style - in this case drop repetition of "Venetian", and use less flowery language, it might be too short. Do you want to continue with me, or rather ask for a different reviewer". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:45, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's up to you Gerda Arendt. JeBonSer (talk | sign) 11:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Let's do it like this: you try to find someone less persistent, and if you can't find one, ping me, but not without substantial changes to the article prose, and a trimmed hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:12, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
IMO the article is very poorly written (see my recent basic copyedits, which oly skim the surface), and is not ready for main page. Needs a skilled readthrough for clarity, and then we can consider DYK. Ceoil (talk) 00:52, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, read through again. The article is deeply confused on a number of counts, and rather than appear on main page should probably be nuked and started again. Gerda, I'm disappointed you are encouraging such a weak promotion. Ceoil (talk) 01:01, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Read again, please, I refused to approve it in the state it is in. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:00, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, see that now, and have stuck, my bad. Ceoil (talk) 20:44, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. JeBonSer, may I tell you that Johnbod and Ceoil (among others) are my authorities when it comes to art, and I hope you will listen to them? - Ceoil, do you think you could teach some things? I wouldn't bother you if this was the only one, but I see a flood of pretty portraits, and they get pictured, and other art is supposed to go without. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:52, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda, I think command of English is the major stumbling block here; many of the claims are so garbled that checking them against the sources is futile, unless reviewers committed to fully rewriting the article, basically from scratch. In fact, as this has obviously taken up a lot of your time, and I see there were other similar noms, would even to as far as suggesting a Wikipedia:Competence is required ban from DYK. Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ALT2: ... that the Portrait of a Woman with Mask (pictured) by Rosalba Carriera has no exact date when it was being painted, but through a label at the back of the portrait this gives help to trace its origins? Source: "Although the history of this pastel prior to its appearance on the antique market is unknown, its provenance from the Galleria Lorenzelli in Bergamo is documented by a label on the back of the work and by an estimate drawn up in Italian lire by Sotheby’s at an unspecified date, but presumably around 1999 since part of Intesa Leasing’s assets were sold to Iniziative Patrimoniali S.p.A. in the same year." Fondazione Cariplo Artgate JeBonSer (talk | sign) 08:12, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article, after being edited, is currently at 1153 prose characters, too short for DYK. The prose is not up to DYK quality, the new hook is not interesting, and I find it extremely telling that two of the article's three sources attribute this painting not to Rosalba Carriera but to Charles-Antoine Coypel (who is French), and the third, a Google page, references an external link (artgate-cariplo.it) that says it's Coypel rather than Carriera. I see no point in continuing this nomination any further given so many problems with the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:07, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand the original hook: "... gives us a clue that the portrait was painted during the artist's own era"? Every artist paints during their own era. If the domino mask is supposed to pinpoint a specific era, then the hook should say "... gives us a clue that the portrait was painted during the early 18th century" or something like that. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: @Metropolitan90: The original hook is currently omitted. JeBonSer (talk | sign) 03:33, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • per BlueMoonset above. Too many issues, article would need to be rewritten, this is not PR. Ceoil (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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