Talk:Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world

half-apes or half maniacs?

Hitler called the people of the Far East and Arabia "Halbaffen". The great majority of English translations use the literal "half-apes", but at least one uses "half maniacs", namely this (p259). The English phrase "half maniac" seems to be pretty obsolete; once it referred to a person with wild unpredictable behavior or something like that (I can't find a formal dictionary definition, can anyone?). It would be reasonable to mention both possibilities, but not to replace the common translation with a phrase few people now understand. Zero^talk 01:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC

Hi im not really into this, but im just gonna say that naziislamism is a stupid word invented by the danish conservative party to use as an islamofobic thing. Hope you gonna look into this. Best regards Frederik.

ARBPIA

To editor Lectonar: Large parts of this article, especially the Palestine section, are right in the thick of the Palestine-Israel conflict. The events described there are argued about in countless books and articles about the conflict. Also, ARBPIA has always been construed to include events leading up to the creation of Israel, not just events following the creation. So I believe this article should at a minimum be labeled as CT/section. Zero^talk 02:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Zionists vs Jews

I changed the text, but it was reverted. Why?the Huge~nlwiki (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It is quite clear that Nazi Germany hated Jews, not Zionists.

So, if stated that NG and the Arabs had a common enemy, it certainly weren't the zionists. Huge~nlwiki (talk) 15:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

How about just removing that part all together? And just have the sentence say:

The cooperative political and military relationships were based on shared hostilities towards common enemies, such as the United Kingdom and France, who held colonies in the Arab world. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 21:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It seems quite important to keep in - maybe make it first. It is so absurd to have Zionist in this article - why is this even on the talk page? The source quoted says:

> Germany and the Arab world also shared the same enemies: the Jews, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union Lansey (talk) 05:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

That's not what the source says:

From https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-wartime-propagandist

Al-Husayni stressed in his speeches and writings the common interests of Germany and Italy with those of Arabs and Muslims. Nazi Germany was the natural ally of the Arab and Muslim world. Not only had Germany never imposed colonial rule on an Arab state, Germany and the Arab world also shared the same enemies: the Jews, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. Al-Husayni pointed out that Germany alone recognized the global threat of the "Jewish problem" and took steps to "solve" it globally.

The article is quoting Al-Husayni, it's not making that statement directly. Obviously, the USHMM would never argue that Jews are the enemy of Arab people. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 14:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

”l-Husayni pointed out that Germany alone recognized the global threat of the "Jewish problem" and took steps to "solve" it globally.”

Your own comment.

Is there no limits you will not cross in order to seek to justify your Jew-hatred? KronosAlight (talk) 22:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Removing means omitting the fact, thus we should avoid it. I've been trying to fact check that Nazi were fighting against Zionist movement, but the only information I could find was thesis that Zionists actually partnered with Hitler to effectively exile Jews from Europe to Palestine. While I personally don't think that this thesis has something to deal with the reality. I remember that Russian antisemitists are very often referring to themselves as Zionists and state that they want all Jews to live in Israel (but themselves they are not Jewish, so this effectively translates into motto "Jews Go Home") and are doing they're best to "motivate" anyone who looks Jewish in Russia to leave the country. But yeah, bottom line, "Jews" instead of "Zionists" seem to be more precise definition. Baitcode (talk) 15:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

please see my edit request below, i believe it solves the issue. Ofer.molad (talk) 15:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh. You are actually correct. Thank you. Baitcode (talk) 15:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

"Zionists actually partnered with Hitler to effectively exile Jews from Europe to Palestine."

No, that's not an accurate description at all. It sounds like you picked up that this is counter-factual propaganda. Think of the Haavara Agreement like a hostage negotiation. Every Jew in Europe had a 75% chance of dying by the end of the war. The Zionists view that for every 100 Jews who left Europe for Mandate Palestine, 75 Jewish lives were saved. Thus, in the Zionist view, the Haavara Agreement saved 45,000 Jewish lives. The Haavara Agreement was supported by the German treasury department under the relative moderate, Hjallmar Schacht, and was ended by the state department for contradicting the Reich's Jewish policies.

This line of criticism of the Haavara Agreement originated in Soviet propaganda, which was plagiarized by Mahmoud Abbas at the University of Moscow, becoming a mainstream Antizionist talking point ever since.

As for Zionist activities against the Nazis, most of the Jewish resistance were Zionists. The Jewish Combat Organization headed by Mordechai Anielewicz was Zionist. Rosa Robota was a Zionist, as was Hannah Szenes. One of my goals in editing Wikipedia is that information like this should be more readily researchable, where now it is too difficult to find.

--Scharb (talk) Scharb (talk) 18:06, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Judging the Haavara Agreement with hindsight is an error. Nobody at the time (not even most Nazis) knew that the Holocaust was coming. Zero^talk 00:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Herzl himself knew that something very much like the Holocaust was coming. From 1881 onwards there was a relentless, unremitting and increasingly total brutal violence unleashed upon the Jewish population of Russia and Europe. This isn’t debatable, it’s not subjective or disputed. This is the entire reason, which he explains explicitly and in detail across many books and speeches, why he calls for the establishment of a self-governing Jewish state, not in order to oppress but in order to escape the coming disaster. KronosAlight (talk) 22:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2024

== motivation

There is a duplication between 2 paragraphs about the "hostility towards uk france and the jews. I simply rearranged the sentences a bit, so one paragraph discusses antisemism and the other discusses uk/france. I find the new format much clearer. As a bonus: - there is no 'hinted' association with the entire Arab World, as the sentence clearly states "some arab leaders". (Dan) - the colonial subject is not "interrupted" by antisemitsm subject, but immediately flows to the anglo-iraqi war; this makes it easier to read. - the complete nonsense about zionism and Nazi Germany is removed

= edit =

Replace the text staring with: "The cooperative political and miltary" Up to: "antisemitism in Islam" With the text below.

=======

One foundation of such collaborations was the antisemitism of the Nazis, which was shared by some Arab and Muslim leaders, most notably the exiled Palestinian leader, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husseini (see subsection in "antisemitism in Islam"). Another foundation was the Nazi hostility towards the United Kingdom and France which held colonies in the Arab World. This hostility translated to an anti colonial interest that Nazi Germany shared with some Arab leaders. However this interest conflicted with interests of Nazi Germany's allies who held colonies in the Arab world, namely Spain, Vichy France and Italy. Ofer.molad (talk) 13:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think your proposed change is good. I'd prefer something like

This hostility was used in Nazi propaganda to allege an anti colonial common interest that Nazi Germany held. However this interest conflicted with interests of Nazi Germany's allies who held colonies in the Arab world, namely Spain, Vichy France and Italy, and this had to manage competing interests in the region.

I just want to make it clear Nazi Germany did not actually intend to free the Arab world. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. You make a good point. Perhaps modify "Nazi propganda" to "Nazi propaganda to the Arab world", this is slightly more accurate.. Ofer.molad (talk) 15:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I want to make it clear that large parts of the Arab world agreed with Hitler’s goal of exterminating the Jewish people. KronosAlight (talk) 22:06, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

 Already done this thread can finally be closed. no edits needed here. Awhellnawr123214 (talk) 04:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

References

scope

What does any of the section on Arab incorporation and emulation of Nazism have to do with relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world? Or Views on historical representation? Honestly, the part of that section that is most relevant to what a large part of this article is doing is the quote from Gershoni Israeli efforts to prove the tangible collaboration between the "Arab world" and Nazis. Unless there is some reason somebody can provide that connects those topics to the topic of this article I intend to go on a pruning run. nableezy - 13:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The movements in question (Young Egypt, SSNP, Ba'athism) were either active (in the case of Young Egypt and the SSNP) or in their infancy (in the case of Ba'athism) during this time period (1930's and 1940s). If the movements in this section were founded post-war then I'd agree they don't belong. Maybe we should move those info on those movements in their respective countries' sections? Or have a "Comparisons between Arab Countries and Nazi Germany" like how we have a Comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

But they dont have any relations with Nazi Germany, the entirety of the section is about supposed similarities. As far as a Comparisons between Arab Countries and Nazi Germany, that would need sources treating that as a topic so as not to be WP:SYNTH. nableezy - 15:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the scope of this article should be more than just official relations between the governments, otherwise it couldn't talk about Amin al-Husseini, who was exiled from Palestine in 1937 and thus no longer represented the official foreign policy of the Mandate of Palestine.

A lot of people since the end of World War Two claimed that Arab movements "took inspiration" from Nazism. The Israelis-British-French alliance in 1956 famously called Nasser "Hitler on the Nile". A article or section delving into the historiography and historicity of that belief would be relevant. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It isn’t just between states, it’s with the Arab world not just with Arab states. But that requires relations between the two, not just oh they have similar views on some subjects. nableezy - 02:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I can add more on the direct relationship (I know Ahmed Hussein of Young Egypt wrote a letter to Hitler before the war).

Would we consider Arab commentary on the Nazis relevant? A large part of the Egypt section is about Egyptians (private citizens) who criticized Nazi Germany. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Generally no. This should be at relations that Nazi Germany had with the Arab world, not "relationships". And a letter to Hitler is likewise not part of relations with Nazi Germany. nableezy - 14:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I generally agree with Nableezy about the scope. However material about such things as the popular opinion in the Arab world towards Nazis and Nazism deserves to be covered somewhere even if it needs a new article. Zero^talk 14:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Is it the relationship Nazi Germany had with the Arab world or relationship the Arab world had with the Nazis? If it's the former then we would be cutting out the entire Arab side from the story. We couldn't discuss how Arabs tried to counter Nazi propaganda - for instance. If its the latter then we couldn't talk about times the Arabs tried to collaborate with the Nazis and were rejected. The title of this article suggests covering both - both how Arabs reacted to the Nazis and how Nazis reacted to the Arabs. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It's relations both ways, but a letter from some group to Hitler isn't exactly relations. nableezy - 15:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It would fall under the relationship that group had with the Nazis - but not the other way around, since the Nazis never bothered responding to Young Egypt. For example, Hitler refused to meet with Ahmed Hussein when he visited Berlin during his tour of Nazi Germany in 1938 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it wouldnt, that would require sourcing connecting that letter to the topic of this article. You cant just put stuff in that you feel is part of the topic, sources have to establish the connection. A unanswered letter some random Egyptian sent to Hitler both fails WP:WEIGHT and WP:SYNTH in this article. nableezy - 15:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Ahmed Hussein is already significant enough to warrant his own wikipedia page Ahmed Hussein (1911–1982) as well as Young Egypt Young Egypt Party (1933) .

My source is the work of James Jankowshi, who wrote extensively on Young Egypt, including a whole chapter in Confronting Fascism in Egypt : Dictatorship versus Democracy in The 1930s about the movement (Chapter 7) Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

And where in that source does it relate the Young Egypt Party and relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab World? nableezy - 17:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

"In terms of practical contact or collaboration, only circumstantial and inconclusive evidence indicates a tangible connection between Young Egypt and either Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany in the 1930s. We have found evidence of only one fleeting contact of sorts with the German government in the 1930s. In June 1934, Ahmad Husayn paid a visit to the German Legation in Cairo. According to the report of the German minister, Dr. Eberhard von Stohrer, the purpose of Husayn’s visit was to “express his sympathy for the new Germany” and also to obtain a visa to travel to Germany while in Europe later in the year. The minister refused to see Husayn when the latter requested a subsequent meeting. Minister von Stohrer’s evaluation of Young Egypt was that it was “extremely weak in terms of its finances” and “of no great significance.” - Confronting Fascism in Egypt : Dictatorship versus Democracy in The 1930s page 239

(The rest of the chapter mostly goes over YE's ideology and its connection to fascism)

"Visiting Berlin first, he was disappointed in his hope of meeting Hitler or other high officials, but was invited to return and attend the Nuremberg Party Congress in the fall. He spent a great deal of his time in Germany in visiting summer work-camps for German youth, and concluded his two weeks there by several days in Munich, visiting the historic sites of Nazism." - THE YOUNG EGYPT PARTY AND EGYPTIAN NATIONALISM, 1933-1945 page 153 (164 in the pdf)

The peak of Young Egypt's adulation for European fascism was reached during a trip to Europe in mid-1938 by Husayn. His articles describing Germany were all highly laudatory of Nazi achievements. The Nazi Party's summer work-camps were praised for bringing together "people of all classes" in labor for the benefit of the nation; the German Labor Front was characterized as a proper way to organize labor with "no swindling of the working classes. . . for there is no 'big' and no 'small' - all are members of one organization, and every worker works for the public interest before he works for himself" and termed "a return to true Islamic society where there was no employer and no employee but [where] all were brothers cooperating together"; and his final article from Germany, in the form of an open letter to Hitler, leaves no doubt as to the favorable impression

Egypt's young rebels : "Young Egypt," 1933-1952 page 66 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 17:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

None of that is related to relations between Nazi Germany and Egypt besides possibly a lone visit to the German Legation. nableezy - 17:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Would you prefer moving the stuff on YE's ideology to Arab fascism?

And if we are talking about the Arab world, do we mean the governments or Arab society? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, would you prefer a section called "Arab reaction to Nazism"? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Or how about renaming the article to "Relationship between the Nazi Germany and the Arab World"? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Relations between the Allies and the Arab world

Relations between France and the Arab world

Relations between the United Kingdom and the Arab world

Relations between Italy and the Arab world

Relations between the Axis and the Arab world Intriguing!Dan Murphy (talk) 02:53, 9 August 2024 (UTC) And not for nothing, but this version from 2012 is far closer to fair and reasonable and accurate than whatever this is now [1].Dan Murphy (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

What in the article now do you think is not accurate? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

As a matter of emphasis? Of scholarship? Of an actual interest in the complex interplay of interests, conflict, colonialism in the early to mid-20th century? An article written from a perspective beyond saying "Nazi Nazi Nazi" in the face of Palestinian, and secondarily Arab national movements? The article in its entirety is inaccurate. So it goes, so it goes.Dan Murphy (talk) 02:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

As a matter of emphasis? Sure, I agree we need to add more on Syria (which isn't mentioned yet).

Scholarship? Gershoni, Wien, Nicosia, Wild, Nordbruch, Wildangel and Herf are the scholars on the topic. Would you rather we cite more Bernard Lewis and Matthias Kuntzel?

Which parts in the article do you have in mind for changing? Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)