Talk:Roza Shanina

Notability

Is she famous for being hot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.3.220 (talk) 07:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

No, she is famous for shooting people. She was hot, though.--172.191.205.200 (talk) 05:46, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Some confusion over the accuracy of the dates that she received the Orders of Glory, June 18th and September 22nd. Excerpts from http://www.airaces.narod.ru/snipers/w1/shanina1.htm say that she received Order of Glory 3rd Class on 1st of May 1944 ("Накануне Первомая 1944 года" = "On the eve of the 1st of May 1944"). The same excerpts from the biography and letters from her friend P. Molchanov on May 28th (which you can find on that same page) also suggest that 3rd Class was received far before June 18th. Additionally, since she was mentioned as having received some Order of Glory in the June 9th issue of the newspaper "Уничтожим врага!" (from first line of http://www.a-z.ru/women_cd2/12/4/i80_207.htm), I think May 1st is probably the right date for it, rather than June 18th.

Additionally, I'm not sure September 22nd is the right date for the Class-2 one, since cross-referencing the biography and her diary excerpts are written as though she received the 2nd Class Order of Glory before some events that took place in late June (during said Belarus/Litva campaign). Maybe the Class-2 Order of Glory is June 18th?

Either way, I could be wrong, but I'm just curious where these dates were obtained from, I'd like to know, too. :) 173.55.242.194 (talk) 12:21, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out. 18 June actually comes from Ovsyankin ("Документы, выявленные в то время, помогли восстановить некоторые подробности фронтовой жизни юной северянки. "В Советской Армии с 22 июня 1943 года, – гласил один из них. – На фронте с 5 апреля 1944 года. 18 июня и 22 сентября награждена орденом Славы 3-й, а затем 2-й степени"). The reason I'm still in doubt about the 1st May source credibility is that it incorrectly writes Valentina Nikonova instead of Valentina Nikolayeva. The best option is to contact the Archive of Russian Defense Ministry on behalf of this. Twilightchill t 01:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

dont talk down to me boy! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.202.41.66 (talk) 20:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah. Interesting, thanks for the link, I missed those... strange that they don't match up with the other documents. As for the Nikonova/Nikolaeva discrepancy, it was noted in those excerpts that use of "Nikonova" and "Nikolaeva" just differ across editions of her biography, and it's speculated it could just be that the author chose to slightly change it in one edition. (I'm sure you saw that, not sure how accurate that is.)

"[ Следует отметить, что во всех других изданиях, например бывшего командующего 5-й армией Маршала Н. И. Крылова - "Навстречу победе", письмах самой Р. Шаниной, фамилия Валентины Петровны указывается как "Николаева" ( вместо "Никонова" у Н. А. Журавлёва - автора повести о Розе Шаниной ). Скорее всего, автор слегка изменил фамилию героини. Да и сам факт её трагической гибелью остаётся под вопросом. Так, Роза Шанина в своём дневнике пишет о 2-х пленённых девушках в Мае 1944 года: Ане Нестеровой и Любе Танайловой.

Известно, что Валентина Петровна Николаева является кавалером ордена Славы 3-й степени. Согласно письму Розы Шаниной, к П. Молчанову от 31 Августа 1944 года: "...наконец мы снова в бою. Все ходили на передовую. Счёт увеличивается. У меня самый большой - 42 убитых гитлеровца, у Екимовой - 28, у Николаевой - 24", на счету В. П. Николаевой не менее 24 убитых фашистов и к концу Августа она была жива и продолжала сражаться... ]"

Either way, it does note that Valentina's death's was entirely under question, regardless of whether or not Nikonova/Nikolaeva is indeed just a difference in editions, granted that Shanina wrote about a Nikolaeva later, as the quote states. And, of course, I'm sure the biography is possibly full of poetic licenses, with regards to the chronology of events, so my speculations about May 1st is mostly rooted in the fact that she had already received the award by the time the June 9th "Уничтожим врага!" issue was published. If there's a way to contact something as credible as the Ministry, that'd be fantastic. Either way, great work around here, article is becoming excellent! 173.55.242.194 (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Roza Shanina/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this article shortly. From a scan it sounds like a very interesting person. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Here are the issues I found:

• "Roza with her fellow girl" fellow girls?
• "Roza sometimes returned from her fellow countrymen of Ustya Raion" not sure what is meant here.
• Soviet institutes of secondary education sounds like it should be all capitalized, but I could be wrong.
• All the paragraphs starting with dates feels repetitive; mix it up a bit.
• there are times where use a comma after a year and times you don't (i.e. june 22, 1944 and june 24, 1944,); make it consistent.
• "In May, 1944" when it's just the day and month a comma isn't needed.
• "Shanina was awarded the Order of Glory 3rd class for actions in the battle for the village Kozyi Gory" for her actions...village of Kozyi
• "during that time, from April 6 to April 11," during that time not needed.
• "To preserve military secrecy in her diary Shanina termed the killed and wounded "blacks" and "reds", respectively" cite preferred for this
• "Shanina was among the first woman snipers" first female snipers sounds better to me here.
• "she regretted for having done so little." for not needed
• "She is the only person, killed in these places, whose body was not transferred in 1953 to the mass grave of Soviet soldiers" neither comma needed.
• "Sergey was also killed, leaving Marat as the only surviving brother." I'd clarify that you post onyl surviving brother from the war; at least I assume that's what you meant. That paragraph should be cited as well.
• I would request a copyedit; ask either at WP:GOCE or WP:MILHIST (the latter might be better since goce is a couple weeks backlogged right now) as the prose is quite rough in some spots. It's not so bad that I would fail this, but it's enough to keep me from passing it.

I'll put the article on hold for a week. By then the issues should be fixed and a copyedit requested. I'll pass the article when all that is fixed. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 05:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

All issues are fixed now and the request has been made (Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Logistics/Copy-editing/Requests). Brandmeister t 14:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok. I just noticed that that page looks unused, so the WP:GOCE request might be the better route after all (only a couple edits after 2009 on that one) Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:29, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Submitted there. Brandmeister t 19:38, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit completed. Brandmeister t 12:11, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• All references should list the original (non-translated) titles/publishers/author(s) unless they are common in English. Then |trans_title= where needed. I did some but got tired mid-way :) —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

  That's a good point. That still needs to be wrapped up, though once that is I can pass the article no problem. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 17:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

  I went and fixed those last couple, so this article now passes GA status. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 23:57, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Horny

While the nickname is amusing it seems a little out of character, perhaps a bit demeaning given the subject's life. In any case it might be more proprer -and informative- if the original Russian word in cyrillic and transliterated to Roman/English were used also. I have looked around for more info myself, but I clearly don't have the resources the original author had/has. Bunnyman78 (talk) 00:17, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The source doesn't provide the original Russian version, the nickname was probably given by English-speaking Allies. Brandmeister t 23:40, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

What is the original Russian version? I tried looking for it, but as far as I see the websites don't have it. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 06:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Higher-res version of main image

Hello, I have found a higher res version of the main image available here if somebody can upload and replace it. I haven't done anything with images on Wikipedia yet so I don't want to accidentally break a good article (or remove any important data on the previous image.) Thanks. Dataxpress (talk) 05:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Done, thanks. Brandmeister t 18:51, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Flexible limbs

Can it be true that the Red Army "begun deploying female snipers because they had flexible limbs"? Even if women's arms are flexible, what has that got to do with being a sniper?Royalcourtier (talk) 19:01, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

"pinion her out of war's way"

I find the claim that "Shanina was not drafted that month as the local military commissariat wanted to pinion her out of war's way" hard to accept. Firstly if there was a universal draft the commissariat could not chose to shelter people. Secondly why keep this girl out of harms way? Thirdly the expression should be "keep" her out of harms way, not "pinion".Royalcourtier (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

@Royalcourtier: That's what the provided source says. Original Russian quote form that page: "Ей было только 16 лет, но она, не раздумывая, потребовала от военкома немедленной отправки на фронт. Приходила к нему раз, другой, третий, получала отказ за отказом... Сначала от ее просьб отмахивались - не до тебя, мол, девочка, иди лучши учись..." ("She was only 16 years old, but instantly demanded from the military commissariat an immediate sending to the front. She came to it once, twice, thrice, but received repeated refusals... Initially her requests were denied - they said she was redundant, that she would better go to study"). Brandmeister^talk 10:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The original source was in Russian. "Pinnion" is not the correct translation - it is not correct English term. I would suggest that the correct translation would be "keep her out of harms way".Royalcourtier (talk) 09:35, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't mind. Brandmeister^talk 11:09, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Patronimic

Ehr.. Her patronimic is "Egorovna", not "Georgevna"... -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 16:41, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

There's already a note, see Roza_Shanina#cite_note-2. Brandmeister^talk 07:54, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Ok. -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 09:59, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Not the first female sniper awarded the Order of Glory.

Nina Petrova was a sniper awarded the Order of Glory several months before Shanina. Nina Petrova received the award 2 March 1944, while Shanina recived the award 17 April 1944.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 01:12, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I've checked the Podvignaroda.ru database and it seems our reference is wrong on that, so corrected. Also, changed her decoration date to 18 April per scanned commendation. Brandmeister^talk 11:32, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Letters of recommendation of Shanina's Orders of Glory

Why are there parts censored in recommendation of Shanina's Orders of Glory's letters? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.210.117.175 (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Privacy issues, I think. The letters mention her home address and place of birth, so censored to avoid disclosure. Brandmeister^talk 12:09, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Roza Shanina.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:38, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Roza Shanina with badge.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:11, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Total kills

Gorgon Slayer, as for " There is no external source that verifies their claim" - have a look at Brayley, Martin; Ramiro Bujeiro (2001). World War II Allied Women's Services. Osprey Publishing, page 37 and Pegler, Martin (2006). Out of Nowhere: A History of the Military Sniper. Osprey Publishing, page 160 (both cited in the article). They are independent of Soviet sources. Also, a sniper log book is written and maintained by an individual sniper, not Soviet government itself. Brandmeister^talk 14:15, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

As I have said before, these sources has been checked. Both of the books are written long after world war 2 and they have collected information from those sources that cites the number claimed by soviet governments as the origin of the information. Moreover, You can't separate a sniper from a government as they are part of the government. Not to mention the canadian newspaper which, itself, cited soviet government as the source which has been cited as the source in this page. Have a look at the link. Gorgon Slayer (talk) 14:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

First, whether a book is written long after WW2 or not, is irrelevant here. Many reliable WP:SECONDARY sources are written by experts long after the war. Secondly, the Soviet claim is 59 whereas those independent cited sources say 54, so it doesn't appear they relied on Soviet number. Lastly, I see your failure to distinguish between a sniper and a Soviet government troubling. Brandmeister^talk 14:46, 23 May 2023 (UTC)