Talk:Ruqayya bint Husayn

Untitled

Can somebody please revise this entire article? It's biased, unfocused and the grammar is atrocious.

- to the guy above, it is not unbiased, youre simply gaslighting and trying to cause problems where there is none. you cannot erase the tragedy of Karbala or paint it where you cherry-pick the facts and who was the oppressed one and who the oppressor was. we see what youre doing. we all do. this is an unmitigated fact that the events portrayed in this article follow the majority reports and analysis by scholars. this article does a good enough job. sure grammar could be better. ive seen worse wiki articles. this is not propaganda so its already better. and upon reading the rest of the article, did not know so many people took offense on how to reference a literal child. what you prefer to address an abused and tortured child? it is not offensive to address respected figures especially ones who had an impact on the world such as this 4 yr old child. why is this offensive I ask? you have a belief where adding bibi, which just means sister as something contrary to human morals? You regard your mother as mother right? not on a first name basis? why is that and why would that be considered offensive to your mother then if you did? I mean just what am I reading here? it is no secret that the majority Shia and proper Sunnis revere these figures. Heck even the Christians of the Arab region and hindus of the south-asian revere them and learn this history. You would have no problem referring to Elizabeth from England, as Queen Elizabeth despite her not being a queen in any sense. Or Isaac Newton as Sir Isaac Newton? despite not having any relations or connections? Heck why do we capitalize the first letter on names? should i stop calling my mother by mother becuase she goes by [insert name] everywhere else? I mean what? seriously?? Yet the term bibi is met with such argument and offense? despite you knowing very well it is part of Islamic etiquette and language to do so. how is it not neutral, when the audience who consumes these stories and spread this history and commemorate this history refer to all women as bibi anyway. but a 3-4 yr old has to be subject to your rhetoric and repression of history. just come out and say you dont like actual facts of the matter be presented and instead want to cause superficial 'debates' just to mask the fact that you would be on yazeeds side during the events of Karbala. Or that you dont really care other than to give people who spread this history a hard time. this is an age old tactic. Or that you wholeheartedly support the ummayads and the erasure of true islam. Where is the neutrality on your taking offense? where is the neutrality in you nitpicking history and trying to inject propaganda. I have also read other nonsense articles surrounding Karbala and the key figures, and its abhorrent the level of twisting of facts and outright lies. socially, historically, religiously and objectively there is nothing wrong with what the OP has written. is it wrong for holocaust survivors to talk about their tragedy and call the nazis evil? is that unbiased? is that 'NEUTRAL?' is that offensive to nazis? and not being considerate of them? should we silence holocaust survivors? even germany does better than you lot. no the true rhetoric is those who have no morals and a level-head would be the ones who have problems with someone who is part of the community that commemorates this history to actually portray the facts and not the nonsensical pandering to the stonehearted who feel attacked whenever the truth is spoken about. you guys are no different than flat-earthers. youre not convincing anyone.Ralvi (talk) 05:25, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Copyvio?

I mentioned to Salman0 that this page was parahrased close enough to warrant possuble charges of plagiarism (it was not a verbatim copy of the www page referenced) - he appears to be a new and inexperienced user, methinks he could have been cut a bit of slack / given a chance to explain himself & fix the problem - Assume Good Faith & all that, as he was definitely moving this article forward & out of the realm of possible copyvio - if this page was, then every page which uses only one source is as well.Bridesmill 14:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Salman01

I visited that hyperlink that you posted in your message. That article is longer then the one that i wrote about Bibi Sakina (AS). I did used one or two website for information and references but i did not directly copy for any website. So please prove that i copied the whole article from that website to wikipedia and then delete it. I mean i am just write that Bibi Sakina (AS) is the youngest daugter of Imam Hussan (AS). And then provide a link to any of her articles on the internet. Thank You Salman

Not encyclopedic

This latest edit is not encyclopedic. I suggest a revert to the stub. I have tried to improve the neutrality of the page (my previous revert was reversed), but it's practically impossible and Salman0 has ignored my comments on neutrality. T. J. Day 16:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I did not ignore anyone comment but the thing is if there is any problem with neutrality then fix it don't delete the whole article. I mean if there is a sentence or two in the article that is not neutral then change those sentences but don't delete the whole article, please. I am thankful to T. J. Day for trying but maybe someone else who is not a shi'a has to try harder to neutralize this article (only if it needs to be neutralized. Thank You Salman0

I appreciate Zora's edit to Sakina bint Hussain - neutrality was significantly improved, good work! T. J. Day 00:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Drastic revision

I cut it down and added such info and links as I could find. We need birth and death dates, the birth DAY translated into the Western calendar, and confirmation of the name. Sakoon looks like a Persian word, not an Arabic one. Also, Sakina looks a lot like the Hebrew Shekina, Wisdom, and I'm wondering if her name could equally well be derived from another Arabic root.

I would also like confirmation that Sakina even existed. Is she mentioned in Tabari? I don't have that volume.

Fair enough? Zora 00:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

A more accurate translation of sakina, like shekina, is "grace", as far as I know. Wikipedia entry on Shekinah translates it as "glory", though. Pecher ^Talk 07:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, I don't find translations of names to be terribly encyclopedic in articles on each and every person bearing that name. Pecher ^Talk 07:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I was remembering wrong, then. I vaguely remembered, or mis-remembered, that the Kabbalists equated Shekina with Sophia, Wisdom. That's what I get for not checking things. Zora 08:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

not from sakoon, but from sukainah which is how it is pronounced in arabic anyway. Sukaynah is an arabic word. Sakinah is how the south asians would pronounce it. and besides Imam Zain ul Abideen had an Iranian mother. It is good to assume, farsi was used in some capacity. lets stop politicizing a childs name. that is very underhanded and morally apprehensible to be honest. what has this child figure done to you? are all child abuse/torture victims offensive to you people? it is generally agreed that all of Imam Husayn's(AS) daughters were named Fatima, but they all had qunyats like everyone else. nicknames. the journey of karbala 3-4yr old Bibi Fatima bint Husayn was known as Sukayna; the journey to sham(damascus) she was now Rukayya. In the end whatever you may call her, she was the youngest daughter of Imam Husayn. a battered, tortured and abused child.

Salman ...

<glyph of banging head on wall>

You removed ALL the indications that citations were needed, and you called her "Bibi" in the I-tried-to-keep-it-neutral section. That's a title of respect, and we don't use titles in WP. You also messed up the formatting, which I had adjusted carefully so that the picture didn't run into the links section.

I'm pissed off, so I'm not going to edit for a while. Perhaps someone else will come along and deal with it. Zora 00:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Shi'a section

Pecher, I think it's OK to allow emotive language and Shi'a praise terms in the Shi'a section, as long as it's clear that WP doesn't adopt those attitudes. I'm not sure that someone who was not a Shi'a would get the full flavor of their belief without the emotive language. Perhaps we should do it with quotes, rather than a WP summary such as I wrote? Then it is very clear that WP doesn't endorse it. Zora 20:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

There was actually more to Salman's edit than the edit summary implied: in fact, he just reverted. Salman must first realize that pushing Shi'a POV accross the whole article is unacceptable. Pecher ^Talk 20:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

However, I don't mind adding this sort of language to the Shi'a section. Pecher ^Talk 07:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW, there is more of the same on Qasim ibn Hassan. Pecher ^Talk 20:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

...and on Abbas ibn Ali. It's just astonishing. Pecher ^Talk 20:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Possible approach to NPOV this and other articles like it

Salman; I understand what you are trying to say, and that you are trying to do so while remaining respectful and not betraying your beliefs. One way that you can accomplish this, is instead of saying 'Bibi Sakina was this that and the other thing' is to say 'Shi'a believe that Sakina - who they refer to out of respect as 'Bibi Sakina' - was this that or the other thing'. It is not easy to write from a neutral point of view when your own beliefs are strong and honest, but please remember that not everyone has the same belief - we all deserve to know what Shi'a believe and why - but you must be careful not to put it as if we already know these things or should just take your word for it - how do you feel if I say 'Jesus is the one true Saviour'? (I'm not christian btw - just using this as an example) wouldn't you feel better if it said 'Christian people believe that....'? Bridesmill 02:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Brother can you explain 'Jesus is the one true Saviour', and then i will clear the confusion you have right now, bu using the help of some

Bibi, sakoon

Bibi should not be bolded, and it should be explained. I think it's a title in Persian, but I'm not sure.

The word "sakoon" is not Arabic, but almost certainly Persian. It is unlikely that Muhammad's granddaughter would have been been given a Persian-derived name. (Shi'a claim that Husayn married a Persian princess. Sharbanu, but I'm not sure that this is universally accepted. I've seen refs that say this is myth, but I can't find them now.)

It must be the Persian version of an Arabic word, which I don't know. That's why I put after than word -- it's dubious. We need someone who understands Arabic here. Perhaps Aminz would be able to help, once he finishes the end of the semester madness. Anyone else we can ask? Zora 03:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

For every single non-Muslims Islam and Islam's teachings, and history is a myth, Zora. So I don't blame you for that. You should ask a person, who understands the meaning of Islam and understands the teachings of Islam about the things you are confused about. Anyone can write a book by using there network and links. For example, just look at what that stupid man named Salman Rushdi wrote about my Prophet Hazrat Muhammad SAW and Islam. And Sakina was the name of Imam Hussain's (AS) daughter and he named her after the word Sakoon (which is an Urdu or Hindi word) that mean peace. He prayed to Allah that he want a daughter that can bring him and his household peace from all the political and social stress that Shi'as Imam Hussain (AS) received from outside of house. Thank You Salman

Interestingly, may be a bit of both - Sakina is certainly very close so Shekhina (pronounced 'S'akhina presumably) and the two are linguistically and geographically closer together than Persian Sakoon - then again, the meaning of Peace for Sakoon, and Shekhina meaning something between 'Wisdom' and 'the indwelling of god', which could conceptually be translated as 'a state of sacred, spiritual trancendance' ('Grace' in some senses) - this certainly as an abstract concept is very close to 'peace'. I'm rambling and theorizing; my point is all three words may be very closely related, so both may be right.

I don't agree that it is all a myth 'because it is Islam', I think to most non-Muslims not everything is taken at face value - that requires 'faith'. It is the same thing when Jews and Christians and Buddhists say things that they 'know' - a Muslim will turn around and say 'what makes you believe such things?' Many things which are documented are not a problem at all - the problem comes in when things are presented as 'this is true, you must just believe it' - in the case of the history of Sakina, what is needed is the reference to which hadith or other historical document this idea comes from, that should be all - but just to say 'you have to believe me because someone told me' doesn't work on Wiki.Bridesmill 22:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

How about we remove the sentence re Sakoon until we have some references? I do not like leaving something that might be dead wrong. We can put it in again if Salman can find some Shi'a references giving the original Arabic root, or proving that she was given a Persian name. Urdu is right out -- that developed hundreds of years later. Zora 01:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

My sense from both Shekhinah & Sakoon (& we know how wonderful classical middle eastern languages are for vowels) appear to have very very similar meanings - thus the 'peace' bit seems fairly close, and 'dead wrong' is prob not where it is (intuition?) I would be happy letting this be until/unless we have either confirmatory source or a conflicting source - it has my curiousity tweaked.Bridesmill 01:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopaedia of Islam says: "The root sh-k-n (Akkadian, Hebrew, Aramaic) or s-k-n (Arabic) means basically 'to go down, rest, be quiescent, inhabit'... The Hebrew usage is generally considered (though not by the native Arabic scholars) as the source of Arabic sakina." Regarding "sakoon", if it's indeed a Persian word, as Zora has suggested, then it is unlikely to mean the same as "sakina" unless it is an Arabic loanword; Persian is an Indo-European language, and the role of vowels in it is not much different from other Indo-European languages, including English. Pecher ^Talk 08:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Sakoon=Calm in Urdu, Sakun=Peace/Calm from Steingass online dictionary. The abstract concepts therefore are very close. Of course there is a political motive to 'not' use the semetic origin (yes, that's totally illogical, I know; but not the first time I've seen someone try to divorce semetic language from arabic), although Occam's razor would definitely support the sh-k-n origin (linguistically closer, & geographically more likely). The line quoted by Salman occurs in heaps of websites verbatim, however not a one of them cites a source...Bridesmill 15:14, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I found an "about the name" website which stated that Sakina means "peace" in Arabic. The Persian, and from that Urdu, words are obviously loan words from Arabic. I just put the website link in there and am inclined to leave it at that. Zora 17:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

not from sakoon, but from sukainah which is how it is pronounced in arabic anyway. Sukaynah is an arabic word. Sakinah is how the south asians would pronounce it. and besides Imam Zain ul Abideen had an Iranian mother. It is good to assume, farsi was used in some capacity. lets stop politicizing a childs name. that is very underhanded and morally apprehensible to be honest. what has this child figure done to you? are all child abuse/torture victims offensive to you people? it is generally agreed that all of Imam Husayn's(AS) daughters were named Fatima, but they all had qunyats like everyone else. nicknames. the journey of karbala 3-4yr old Bibi Fatima bint Husayn was known as Sukayna; the journey to sham(damascus) she was now Rukayya. In the end whatever you may call her, she was the youngest daughter of Imam Husayn. a battered, tortured and abused child.

Needs to stay focused

What is happening here? Zora provided referecned material backing up Shi'a beliefs, and it is summarily cut out and replaced with same-old text with no reference. You cannot expect people to believe stuff 'because it is so' - no teverybody believes the same thing at face value - the references, the written citations exist - they should be used. So when people try to help create an article that teaches all readers - Muslim & non-Muslim - about the story of Sakina 'historically', don't reject them because they don't share your politics 100%. (esp. when they are people who's help you asked for). Bridesmill 05:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I reverted, which will probably come back to haunt me, but dang it Salman, we're bending over backwards so that you can tell your story, emotive language and all, and you want to remove a reference and restore all the Shi'a-POV words like Imam, martyr, Hazrat, RA. You shouldn't try to make Wikipedia speak with a Shi'a voice. Even in the Shi'a section, we have to recount what the Shi'a beliefs are, we can't use language that suggests that WP shares them. Just so, we don't put PBUH after Muhammad. If you want people to read the Shi'a language, either we have to quote, rather than rephrase, or we have to just put the external links there and let readers visit them if they wish. We are not preventing you from telling your story, we're just saying that it's not OUR story, it's not the story of 99% of the people that are going to read this article, and you can't use language that suggests that it is.

Also, your English is shaky, which is to be expected, if it's your second language. All too often your writing, or your revision, is ungrammatical. We can't let that stand, Salman. It detracts from your story. People stop thinking about Sakina and wonder why there's a comma instead of a semi-colon.

Can you suggest some quotes that you want us to use? Or perhaps there's a quatrain by a famous poet that would say what you want to say? Zora 05:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

And what are you saying Zora "Shi’a people tell affecting stories of the relationship of Bibi Sakina (AS) with her father Imam Hussain (AS). “Stories”, what stories we don't tell stories, what ever we say about our Imams and their household are not stories they are truth. I mean if you are not a Muslim you will never understand what Islam is about and if you are not a Shi'a then you are not going to understand what Twelve Imams and their companions were all about. I mean the Shi’a section should only say what Shi’a people believe, not what non-Muslim or non-Shi’a is saying. We the Shi'as believe that (ok hold on), not only the Shi’a community but the Sunnis also believe that imam Hussain (AS) and his companions were martyred not killed. Thank You Salman

Salman, why do you take out the cited part, the only part that gives a reference? Why do you remove the mention of taziyas, which I think are a very important part of the memorial tradition of Imam Hussain & Sakina, and which are interpretive stories and plays. Why do you say only Shi'a can understand? a lot of people would take that as an personal attack WP:NPA and why do you say that only Shi'a can write about Shi'a? Why do you not read what people have written to you to try & help make a good educational article rather than what looks like and reads like Shi'a propaganda? And why the hangup on martyred vs. killed when this language is used in many, many Shi'a writings and all we are trying to do is state in a neutral way, adding what Shi'a believe. The way it reads now is like Yazid said, 'ok, we are going to martyr you now' and there is historical record of that and it is agreed by the whole world that this is so. The main point is, just the title of the section is not enough to allow every sentence to be a Shi'a POV - each bit in that section needs to describe the Shi'a POV, not state it. The reason we are making a big deal about it is that if it is not done right, 2 or 3 weeks from now (or sooner) someone is going to come along and trash the whole piece 'because it is POV' - and then what have you/we achieved? It is then very possible that the Shi'a POV will not be represented at all - It is better to achieve 90% of your goals in what you want to say and keep it, than 100% and lose it. Bridesmill 22:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Page title inconsistency

I changed Hussain to Husayn in her name, to be consistent with her father's name here and on his page, but shouldn't this page also have the main title "Sakina bint Husayn"? Can't you change that? Nöldeke, April 28, 2006.

Yes, we just need to move it. Husayn is more common in the scholarly works I own. I think we have Hussain because the article was started by someone who speaks Persian. Consensus on the move, to make it consistent? Zora 05:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Binte VS Bint

I tried my best to explain our friend Grenavitar that binte is the right way of saying daughter of in Arabic but he keeps on insisting that it should be bint. Bint has a spelling mistake since it leaves out the -e- from binte. Whoever started writing Islamic article in on wikipedia wrote the article with acb bint acb and acb bin acb. Which are wrong because in Arabic the right way of saying daughter of is Binte and the correct way of saying son of is Ibn. Salman

Dates

Is there a reason that the dates in this article don't give the gregorian equivalents (at least approximately), or at the very least wikilink inline directly to information on the Islamic calendar system? The lack of this makes it much less useful to those who aren't already familiar with such things. SamBC(talk) 13:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the person below. This article severely lacks proper citation and does not feel objective. There is much left out also. I don't have time right now to edit much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StayFocused (talk • contribs) 19:17, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Holy Daughters of Maula Imam Husain sua

It has been written in this article that Maula Imam Husain sua had 3 daughters. This is incorrect

Imam sua had 5 holy daughters. 4 of them were present in Karbala. All of them were imprisoned. 2 of them martyred in Damascuss during imprisonment.

The holy Name of all the 5 daughters was FATIMA sua.

1..The eldest was the wife of hazrat Hasan e Musanna sua, the eldest son of Maula Imam Hasan bin Ali aua aj. This family was present in Karbala. Hazrat hasan e Musanna sua was seriously injured at Karbala but HE sua did not embrsed martyrdom there. he was taken along by some kufites and treadted at Kufa for one full year. after recovering, HE sua went back to Madina. His 3 years old son hazrat Abdullah ibn alHasan sua aj, is a martyr of Karbala.

2.. Bibi sua was also present in Karbala and was married in the night of 10th Muharram with shehzada hazrat Qasim ibnal hasan sua aj.

3.. Bibi sua was left home at Madina. Bibi went to Damascuss lateron in 62 hijri, along with most of the family members, when due to plaque epidemic in Madina, Her holy mizar is also in Damascuss; bab Al-Sagheer.

4.. Bibi was born in 56 hijri, was at karbala, martyred in Damascuss, during the imprisonment. Two places were used as prisons for the Holy Family of Maula Imam Husain sua. First they were kept in a prison just behind the palace of yazid L. Later; due to unrest in public and a wave of hate, they were shifted in another prison behind the graveyard of bab Al-Sagheer. An ancient mosque, with no roof. Here due to snow fall and chilling cold, Masooma martyred.

5.. The Youngest holy Daughter was about 2 years of age at Karbala. Due to the tourchering long journey from Kufa to Damascuss, Bibi sua felt ill and martyred few days after the Holy Family was imprisoned behind the palace. A beautiful Mizar has been recently constructed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.170.60 (talk) 01:33, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

This is not what I see from accessed references. For example, what about the daughter that was named 'Ruqayyah' and also called 'Sakînah'? Leo1pard (talk) 12:47, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

html comment from article

The following text was in a html comment in the article: NOT CLEAR WHAT THIS IS EITHER Sakīnah bint Husayn, is also known as Rukayya. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FOLLOWING THREE LINES ARE ABOUT SO COMMENTED THEM OUT (This article is dedicated to daughter of Imam Husain who is the youngest and was 4 years old at time of death. She is referred to by both Sakina as well as Rukayya. There is another daughter of Imam Husain, Fatema Kubra, 11 years old, who is also named as Sakina, please refer to article Sakinah bint Husayn). Arcandam (talk) 21:16, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced gushing

Much of the contents of this article consisted of unsourced gushing, reading as a narrative rather than an encyclopedic entry. There was a lot of over emotional language involved, for example referring to the subject as "bibi," a term of endearment used in Indo-Persian cultures. Additionally, a lot of the article's content revolved around the tyranny of Yazid I and his conflict with Hussein bin Ali, which is relevant to those articles but holds little relevance to this one. The Shi'ite perspective section mentions that this girl's story is often retold emotionally at their religious celebrations, and it certainly showed in the unsourced material which I deleted. This article needs major work in terms of reliable sourcing and NPOV. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

not confusing the daughters of al-Husayn with each other

Ruqayyah (who in popular tradition is referred to as Sakina) is reported to have been a different (younger) daughter of al-Husayn ibn Ali than Sukayna, who was about 12 years old during the incident in Karbala. This article seems to be mixing them (as is often done in popular culture), since Sukayna is the elder, but the article is mostly about the younger one. Perhaps someone can fix this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamma Draconis (talk • contribs) 05:57, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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first two external links not working

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Leo1pard (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Why I redirected it to Daughters of Husayn ibn Ali

See this. Leo1pard (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

@Leo1pard: I can not find discussion to redirect this page. I am reverting it to original state. --Spasage (talk) 15:44, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

@Spasage: But what is in this article that is not there, or should not be there? Leo1pard (talk) 07:05, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Besides, the way I see it, the relationship between Husayn ibn Ali and his daughters, is like the relationship between Cecil the Southern African lion and his son Xanda. As in, just as Xanda was WP:notable due to his father being notable (which is why it was decided not to have a separate article for Xanda), it appears that Ruqayyah and her sisters were notable mainly because their father was notable. If Ruqayyah and her sisters had not been daughters of a prominent person like Husayn, then would they have been as prominent as they currently are in Shi'ite culture, amongst other things? Leo1pard (talk) 11:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Take this quote that is attributed to Husayn. It appears from the quote that a number of people were killed by the regime of Yazid I, but which victims do we know of better than Hashimite figures like Husayn and Ruqayyah? Leo1pard (talk) 12:42, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Which is why I prefer that Sukayna bint Husayn should be merged with Daughters of Husayn ibn Ali. Leo1pard (talk) 16:00, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

They are two different pages. I do not see any merit of redirecting to Daughters of Husayn ibn Ali. Article on Sukayna bint Husayn in its own right is very important. --Spasage (talk) 16:29, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Except for the almost identical information on Ruqayyah. Leo1pard (talk) 06:13, 8 February 2018 (UTC)