Talk:Secwepemc

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"Shuswap" should be a disambig page[edit]

Shuswap currently redirects here, but there should be a disambig page because of the common nature of this name in BC: Shuswap Lake, Shuswap River, Shuswap Country (pointedly in the local argot, "the Shuswap), the Shuswap Nation (not the same thing as Secwepemc, since there are non-Shuswap Nation bands who are Secwepemc, and the Shuswap Nation article needs creating anyway. I think there's also a couple of provincial, maybe federal, electoral districts that have/had Shuswap in their names.Skookum1 03:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a very skookum idea ;-)

Secwepemc Museum and Heritage Park[edit]

This and institutions like it should all get articles; the St'at'imc have their own (a proposal currently), the Siska Band have theirs and more, including Weetama at Whistler and so on; all in Category:Visitor attractions in British Columbia as well as various FN and museum categories.. Also re the above I'll redlink Shuswap (disambiguation) or make the Shuswap redirect the disambig page, one of the two...most English users of Shuswap, at least in BC, will not be using it so much for the people as for the region, lake or river...I also have to get around to stubbing up Shuswap Country I guess..Skookum1 (talk) 05:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

ToDo pages for each people/nation[edit]

It occurred to me that a certain page in each category, I guess the main article, shoulld have a todo list for that topic category, like a mini-WikiProject on each one; this way, maybe, when someone with the interest and/or from one of those areas or nations comes by, there's a directory of existing/avialable titles/topics. Such is the case with the Secwepemc Museum and Weetama and but also bios, community articles, issue articles in need of doing, project/organization articles e.g. the language and education authorities, which are distinct frrom teh tribal councils, and so on....so Talk:Secwepemc#ToDo_List, Talk:Shishalh#ToDo_List, Talk:Nlaka'pamux#ToDo_List etc..... Skookum1 (talk) 05:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Nathan Johnson (talk) 19:25, 25 May 2013 (UTC)



Shuswap peopleSecwepemc – This move was made in error, as "Shuswap people" is NOT the COMMONNAME usage and CANENGL applies, not ENGLISH in its global context. "Secwepemc" is now the standard in Canadian English, and is regularly used by major media and local media as well as academia and by the peoples/governments/organizations themselves, as can be seen in the cites. A google search for "Secwepemc" yields 83,900 results while for "Shuswap people" yields 4,780 results. Indigenous endonyms are now the norm in Canadian English and the expected standard. Skookum1 (talk) 13:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Support restore per well presented nomination. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONALITY if nothing else. Many people have heard of the "Shuswap". Hardly anyone has heard of the "Secwepemc", which AFAICT does not even have an English pronunciation. — kwami (talk) 06:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Tell that to the major media whose news reporters use it regularly. Once again you're "many people have heard of the Shuswap", like your "people around the world" claim about the Ktunaxa issue, is nonsense; many people around the world have indeed heard of the Shuswap Country and Shuswap Lake (which is the main usage for what "the Shuswap" means in British Columbia), but "many people" can learn something new everyday....as should you. "Secwepemc" is now the media standard in Canada, and is part of Canadian English. This is a Canadian article, where Canadian English conventions completely override what "many people" in other countries only know. Secwepemc territory extends far beyond "the Shuswap".....another well-known region name in BC that your renaming these to what you claim is ENGLISH will cause much confusion in category and template names. "Shuswap" whether about the lake or the region or the river or the people, also isn't English and its origins are unclear though is claimed t o be of native origin, though the Secwepemc themselves don't have a meaning for it; its English pronunciation isn't obvious either (that second 's' is decidedly a "sh" in normal usage). Skookum1 (talk) 06:12, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
"Isn't obvious" is true for the pronunciation of many English words, like "women" or "read". "Shuswap" is used in Canada, and COMMONALITY is in the same section of the MOS as ENGVAR for a reason. I'd like to see a dictionary with an English pronunciation for "Secwepemc" to demonstrate that it's been assimilated the way "Shuswap" has been. That is, it would be nice to know that English speakers reading this article would be able to actually use the name in conversation. If not, it's not much use as an English name. — kwami (talk) 06:30, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Sez you, the newspapers in Kamloops and Merritt and Williams Lake and Salmon Arm are not likely to agree with you, nor any college of school in the area, either. Your appraisal of it is not very relevant if you're not reading Canadian sources, and are dismissive of the preference of the indigenous people and their own academic/linguistic community, as you obviously are.Skookum1 (talk) 06:45, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Canadian Encyclopedia uses "Secwepemc (formerly Shuswap)", Oxford Press cites this book which uses "Secwepemc" in its precis. "Shuswap people" returns "no results" there. Fact of the matter is, dictionaries take a while to catch up even to official usage. Ask the local MLA or MP what these people are called, chances are he can pronounce their name quite well. The point here is also to distinguish from the "most common usage" which is for the region and the lake, not for the people(s). You seem oblivious, even dismissive about this issue. "The Shuswap" in BC has a very clear common meaning, and it's not the people". How you coming on cites for that "many people" claim?Skookum1 (talk) 06:45, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Reply Kwamikagami, on what basis do you determine that Secwepemc in these hundreds of English books "does not even have an English pronunciation". Frommer's British Columbia and the Canadian Rockies Bill McRae, Donald Olson - 2010 p286 has "Secwepemc Museum & Heritage Park The Secwepemc (pronounced “She-whep-m,” anglicized as Shuswap) people have lived along the Thompson River for thousands of years." isn't that an English pronunciation? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Seems to be missing a slight k before "whep"...another source that I'd think Kwami should know about is James Teit who gives "Shukwapmuk" though I'll check that spelling and get the source. It may already be linked in a previous section above. Also George M. Dawson gives something similar.Skookum1 (talk) 05:50, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Comment as per a comment on a parallel RM, I've contacted the Counsel-General of British Columbia, part of the Ministry of the Attorney-General, who are the government's language specialists and who helped resolve the hyphen-endash matter for regional districts. Some say official sources don't count...but apparently those from other countries do (?? really?? izzat so).....but just heard back from her, she's away until the 21st but will be looking into the matter for me, i.e. about official BC English usages.Skookum1 (talk) 06:11, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Secwepemc is the more common pronunciation in English in contemporary times. Shushap may have been common in the past, but there is a litany of sources to show Secwepemc is used. The argument that "Ohhhhhh my! I can’t pronounce it. I don’t know how to say it... Waaaaaah waaaaah!" isn’t a good argument to keep the out-dated name. There’s tons of places, towns, and people that I can’t pronounce, and they’re in different Native languages, English, and French, but get used in English-speaking context. OldManRivers (talk) 17:54, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Not English. --JorisvS (talk) 09:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Comment "Not English" is totally wrong, it may not be your English, but these names are the new norm in Canadian English and have been for a good twenty years and more. 'Ksan and Gingolx aren't "normal" English either, nor is Nuu-chah-nulth or Kwakwaka'wakw or Mi'kmaq or Inuit or Sto:lo, yet these are all common in Canadian English. You know, us funny folks that say "aboot" and use "-re" on "centre" and "-our" on "labour" and such.....and we embrace, including officially, indigenous words all the time...have a look at List of aboriginal place names in Canada and check it out. I suppose your position is that the Nisga'a article should be moved to the archaic Nishga people, too, huh?Skookum1 (talk) 10:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support: Both words are "not English," so let's use the one the people themselves want to have used. It's an issue of respect. Montanabw(talk) 17:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support, even though my rationale over at Nlaka'pamux doesn't hold here - Shuswap people is still the LoC authority heading.[1] This one is probably more a bastardization than a complete rename by Anglos, like Nlaka'pamux. Secwepemc has been in use regionally for my whole lifetime - people do default to Shuswap because of the pronunciation difficulties, but this is changing. The government uses it, the people themselves use it, and the media is catching on. We might be a bit ahead of the curve here, but why not be a bit ahead of the curve? It's not going back in the other direction; the people made up their minds, and us non-natives are finally respecting that (although with some resistance). The Interior (Talk) 20:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment Regarding the pronunciation, cited above as a counter-argument for using Secwepemc, I can give at least two governmental links with official pronunciation guides: Pronunciation Guide, BC Ministry of Education, resource docs, Pronunciation Guide to First Nations in British Columbia, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. —capmo (talk) 03:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Both of those are useful on the other RMs; I just posted a rather exhaustive list, which included two other pronunciation guides, on the RM at Talk:Kutenai people, one of which is also BC Ed Min on a curriculum map, the other for pron. of Ktunaxa on the ktunaxa.org website. Needless to say, native-nation page websites for the Scewepemc can be expected to have similar; there's a Shuswap history (meaning the Shuswap region) bibliography/links page I saw recently, I'll go find it, it also has a pronunciation guide.Skookum1 (talk) 04:20, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment In addition to the two pronunciation guides found/posted by Capmo, here's one more:
The map is fine. Those are English pronunciations, which is all I asked for. (Rather illegible ones, but that's what we get with govt sites.) — kwami (talk) 11:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support move - Concurring strongly with User:Montanabw. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment User:Pfly managed to find this, from the federal government's Translation Bureau, an essay on the new names and it says straight out "Secwepemc (formerly Shuswap)". I suggest you read the whole essay. His post on the Lillooet/St'at'imc RM included also a book on aboriginal peoples for children, published in 2012, which lays out similar.Skookum1 (talk) 11:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support move per my comments here [2].(olive (talk) 14:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC))
  • Comment As I've done on other pages, here's what the Canadian Oxford Dictionary has to say on pronunciation: Secwepemc /ˈsəxwepməx/. However, unlike their entries on Ktunaxa and Stl'atl'imx their main entry is under Shuswap, with the Secwepemc entry simply saying "See Shuswap". Here is their Shuswap entry. Pfly (talk) 20:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Shuswap /ˈʃuːswɒp/

▶ noun (pl., same or Shus*waps)
1. a member of an Aboriginal people living in the Thompson River area of BC.
2. the Salishan language of this people.
Origin: corruption of Shuswap Secwepemc, self-designation.

Usage: Also called Secwepemc.
  • Comment I've just received a reply from author and reporter Terry Glavin, who used to write for the Vancouver Sun and is a very notable writer on First Nations and other aboriginal issues. This is a direct quote from his reply: "What a profoundly exotic line of argument, and against this? "The St'at'imc, Tshilqot'in, Secwepemc, Ktunaxa and Nlaka'pamux names, if not so much Skwxwu7mesh, are now a standard part of Canadian English and the accepted norms." That sentence is completely and unambiguously and (one would have thought) uncontroversially true. These (except for perhaps Skwxwu7mesh, I don't specifically recall) were the correct spellings at the Vancouver Sun while I was covering aboriginal affairs more than 20 years ago for goodness sake. The Vancouver Sun isn't exactly a linguistics newsletter." The profoundly exotic line of argument he's referring to is the "it's not English because nobody knows how to pronounce it" and "we don't do official names" criticisms of the proposed version(s). Also received a note from my CBC reporter contact that the CBC's name/pronunciation system is an internal database and can't be linked/quoted easily. Still awaiting word from the Counsel-General (who's back at work today) and CTV. But between federal and provincial government citations and documents, two or three crown corps, munis/RDs and the government sites of the peoples themselves, I have yet to see any citation proving the other claim that the archaic/discredited names are "most common" or that "these terms don't belong in English-language Wikipedia".Skookum1 (talk) 06:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment I've received a reply about these matters from the BC Attorney General's ministry's Legislative Program Coordinator in the Office of the Counsel General, who is responsible for the government's style and usage guide. I'll quote it verbatim rather than try to summarize it, and she pretty much covers all the ground, including cites, I've already posted here and elsewhere.
As we know, orthography is a system used to standardize how a particular language is written. The problem with aboriginal languages has a lot to do with three things. The first is that the aboriginal peoples did not have a written language, it was all oral and their history was passed down through their stories. The second point is missionaries were the ones to write down the language. They created the written form while sitting there and listening, and applied this method to all aboriginal languages . While this is not entirely accurate, I would suggest that phonetics sometimes had their place, as has Anglicization of words. The third point is that though some have adopted the international phonetic alphabet, there are many in British Columbia that have their own orthographies. There is an interesting description of “current” versus “other” names at this page: http://maps.fphlcc.ca/language_index_other
The B.C. Government, through the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation and the Ministry of Education, has recognized the rights of First Nations to develop and educate their children in traditional languages. A common goal in B.C. and other jurisdictions is promote self-government. Of interest to this issue would be these pages—
In addition, when my office is working with aboriginal names and naming, it is necessary to have the orthographic character as used by that aboriginal peoples. While my office works with Queen’s Printer for this, we do often refer to sites like this one to find what we need: http://www.languagegeek.com/index.html The purpose, of course, is respect for the First Nations peoples language and sensitivities. This is often a negotiated thing, particularly with parks, conservancies and reserves.
There is a statute that guides British Columbia: First Peoples’ Heritage, Language and Culture Act, see section 6. Under this Act is the establishment of the First Peoples’ Cultural Council. The website for the Crown Corporation: http://www.fpcc.ca/, I think you will find this page most interesting: http://www.fpcc.ca/about-us/Publications/
And if you’re looking for examples of usage of regionalism, go to the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act, where you will find names that identify parks, conservancies and reserves that are in both regional and aboriginal references.

From that point on she lists park names that exist either in both languages (whichever language it is), legally and formally, and some that have only native names; it's a set of HTML boxes, most reflected already in Category:Provincial parks of British Columbias many titles. If anyone needs "proof" of this email or thinks I fictionalized it, "email this user" and I will gladly forward it.Skookum1 (talk) 06:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Secwepemc/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Major Interior Salish group (Shuswap); this is a people-stub and will also need language article as well as many subgroup articles --Skookum1 (6 May 06)
  • Needs a lot of expansion, citations, ethnobox, etc. --Miskwito 15:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Substituted at 05:16, 13 May 2016 (UTC)