Talk:Sid Luckman

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sid Luckman article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Sid Luckman has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 20, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed

New York (state): Columbia University Low‑importance

	New York (state) portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Columbia University (assessed as Low-importance).

Illinois Low‑importance

	Illinois portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Illinois, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Illinois on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IllinoisWikipedia:WikiProject IllinoisTemplate:WikiProject IllinoisWikiProject Illinois articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Chicago Low‑importance

	Chicago portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles or pages related to Chicago or the Chicago metropolitan area.ChicagoWikipedia:WikiProject ChicagoTemplate:WikiProject ChicagoChicago articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Sports and Games

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	Sports portal This article is supported by the sports and games work group (assessed as Mid-importance).

College football High‑importance

	College football portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject College football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of college football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.College footballWikipedia:WikiProject College footballTemplate:WikiProject College footballcollege football articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

National Football League Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject National Football League, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the NFL on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.National Football LeagueWikipedia:WikiProject National Football LeagueTemplate:WikiProject National Football LeagueNational Football League articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Chicago Bears (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago Bears, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Chicago BearsWikipedia:WikiProject Chicago BearsTemplate:WikiProject Chicago BearsChicago Bears articles

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

[[List of Jews in sports#Football (American)|List of select Jewish football players]] The anchor (#Football (American)) has been deleted by other users before.

Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

GA status

I'm interested in getting this article to meet GA standards. Anyone want to help? Enigma ^message 17:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I should have noted some time ago that I am going to/am helping (an Aussie's flavour might just be the thing an article on this guy needs) :) --VS ^talk 05:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's better than Start-Class now. Enigma ^message 06:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note on Luckman's parents

I can't find a name for his father. I found on a blog that Luckman's mother's name was Ethel. Enigma ^message 04:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep I noted that blog - it's a blog but it seems like a good one (if you know what I mean). I was going to suggest getting his autobiography to see what it says but it appears at this stage that he only referred to his parents as "Dad Luckman" and "Mum Luckman".--VS ^talk 05:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, which is unfortunate. I'm sure he knew his parents' names. I'm not really sure why he didn't mention it in the book. Maybe he didn't want to be disrespectful by saying or writing their names. Enigma ^message 06:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah maybe - but he was born in New York so (I'm not sure how close you are to there physically) the records must be available. It would be a good coup for research because I also can't find anything on the internet at this stage.--VS ^talk 06:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I live in New York City and could easily get to the area where he was born. I will look into this. It's possible that it's part of the public record. Enigma ^message 06:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would be great - it certainly would be a good find for this article.--VS ^talk 06:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update:I e-mailed the Bureau of Vital Records and they referred me to another agency. I'll get to the bottom of this eventually! Enigma ^message 05:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like you are well on to the job.--VS ^talk 06:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delta Chapter

Not sure if this is usable - but Luckman was in the Delta Chapter at Columbia? link here --VS ^talk 05:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's worth mentioning as part of a section on things named after him. I'm sure this wasn't the only thing named after him. Enigma ^message 05:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merchant Marine, Distinguished American Award, and Executive

Nice find. I at first thought it was a subset of the Marines or something, heh. This page says he was a coach at the academy. Not sure when that was. Before he served? Enigma ^message 06:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know - he did coach quarterbacks for the Bears after retirement according to this which also notes that he was awarded the Walter Camp Distinguished American Award of the Year Award (definitely worth putting in the article - although of interest the Wiki page does not have him as the winner) and that he became an executive with a Chicago Cellophane company (go figure?)--VS ^talk 06:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was just about to add that it was joint winners as a quick search revealed. When I hit edit, I saw someone had beaten me to it, and I just knew it was you! Enigma ^message 06:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Us Aussies - too quick :) --VS ^talk 06:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is funny

You know that book you referenced, using Google Books? Turns out I own it. I never opened it. It was still in plastic, but I opened it and found the section on Sid. Enigma ^message 18:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I'm going to check the Bureau of Vital Records and the New York Times obituaries for more information. Enigma ^message 18:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey there, that is pretty funny about you actually having that book. It's good also from the perspective of being able to list it as a source - which I have now done. Can you please check to see if I have the details correct (year of pub'n, publisherr, ISBN etc)? Good luck with finding details from the Bureau etc.--VS ^talk 23:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ISBN and publisher are correct. The book was originally published in 1983. The copy I have is a new edition (this looks to be the same one as on Google Books), copyright 2003. Inside the cover, it has Copyright 1983, 2000, 2003. Enigma ^message 23:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replying here to your message on my Talk, VS. The book has people in alphabetical order, so Sid is on pages 189-191. The stuff about Halas pleading with Sid to play and Halas negotiating with the Steelers is on 189. 189-190 is about Halas devising the T-formation and deciding Sid was the best man to run it. 190 also says "In 1940, Sid gave the T-formation permanence and credibility. In that year's title game against the Washington Redskins, the underdog Bears destroyed their opponent, 73-0. Luckman, who played only the first half because the game was so one-sided at halftime, scored one touchdown and passed for another. The day after the game, the New York Times said of Luckman: 'No field general ever called plays more artistically or engineered a touchdown parade in more letter-perfect fashion.'"

Yep that's good I will try and incorporate as references to the last couple of remaining bits tonight if I have time (after work) unless you beat me to it (and cross off as done). Either way is okay by me. Thanks for checking.--VS ^talk 01:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Starting to take good shape

We are getting much closer in my view. It would be nice to find out the details of parents (as discussed previously) but also of his children's names. Additional details on his coaching/football links after full-time playing - did he sponsor anyone, did he do speeches, did he gain any honorary diplomas those types of things. Also I wonder if there are any other fair use images that we could add. I noted the fair use rationale for the current photograph and I don't think that we could do that again for another image of Sid but if would could get an image or some sort of graphic of the T-Formation that might work. I did have a look on Commons but didn't see anything - although it probably needs a set of US eyes to search more in-depth.--VS ^talk 23:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

T-formation stuff on Commons? Very doubtful. Images are going to be a problem for this article. I hope to find more details on his parents, and I'll see if there's any way I can find out about his children. Enigma ^message 23:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That said - just found a nice image IMHO. You like?--VS ^talk 23:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)His children's names. Also, I found a variety of links referring to a case involving the Luckmans and the IRS. [1] Enigma ^message 23:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, team photo is good stuff. Enigma ^message 23:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bloody brilliant work - kids names add depth. Will leave you to add to article.--VS ^talk 00:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Found the New York Times obituary

It wasn't easy, but I made the trek to a far-off library to view microfilm on old editions of the New York Times. In the July 6, 1998 issue, there was an obituary. A lot of the information we already have (it talks about the dinner Halas had at Luckman's house), but it has a few quotes. I'll see what I can add. Enigma ^message 17:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's the way - well done, I'll be interested to read what's new.--VS ^talk 22:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Come to think of it, I'll scan it in and send it to you. Might as well. Enigma ^message 22:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You get the chance to look at it? I've been slacking a little, I must confess. I need to look through the obit and article at the same time and compare the information. Enigma ^message 07:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I have had a bit of look Enigma - but didn't want to take any credit for your good work - give it a run and I will assist.--VS ^talk 07:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Obviously you can see all this in the obit, but I'm going to use this Talk page to post some bits that we might be able to use. These are all copied directly from the New York Times obituary:*Bob Zuppke, the great Illinois coach, once said of Luckman, "He was the smartest football player I ever saw, and that goes for college or pro."

"When I grew up in Flatbush," Luckman once told a reporter, "we played football, stickball, and baseball all the time, right out there on the city streets. Football was my favorite."
Luckman was "another coach on the field," Halas said.
In fact, when Luckman quit playing pro ball, he helped install the T-formation at Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Holy Cross and Columbia. [Note:I think I'll try to incorporate this into the part about him tutoring coaches]
In 1943...Chicago went to New York for a regular season game. It was deemed Sid Luckman Day at the Polo Grounds.
"He was the best all-around football player that New York City ever developed," said the former track star and sports broadcaster, Marty Glickman.
Luckman had earlier launched a successful business career in Chicago. He had a long association with the packaging industry and a firm called Cellu-Craft Products, which he later headed.

Turns out we had the obituary already, which renders all of this useless. Odd that the New York Times obituary is available online. Should've checked more carefully. Enigma ^message 05:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Nomination

I have bitten the bullet and nominated. That will mean we have a week or three to tidy up a bit more in a few areas (including adding where suitable some of the stuff above). I think the article is very well written now and it will be good to get a few pointers from third parties. I intend to follow your work and assist but would prefer you to add the parts above in the first instance. I suggest this because it was your idea to get Sid to GA status in the first place and you deserve the opportunity to reach that goal. I suggest we spend a large part of our wiki time here for now until we get an assessment from a reviewer.--VS ^talk 02:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. By the way, I think his death should at least be a separate sentence. I'll make some changes. Enigma ^message 05:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

T-formation

[2] is a Google Books result for Luckman being "interviewed" before the formation was installed at Notre Dame. This is also helpful and could be a good source for the information about his tutoring. Enigma ^message 05:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Career stats

They need to have a source somewhere in and around that section. I couldn't find anything personally, do you guys have anything? Utan Vax (talk) 11:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done Good pick up UV - --VS ^talk 12:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good job, VS :-) Utan Vax (talk) 12:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My fellow honorary Chicagoans

I have put a call into Peanut4 to give us a second opinion. We'll see what (if anything) is still required. Top work by you two fellows - great to have you stop by Utan Vax - hope to see you on board some other projects after this one is finished.--VS ^talk

Image copyright problem with File:1946Bears.jpg

The image File:1946Bears.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --00:57, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Luckman was the first modern T-formation quarterback"

This is mentioned twice on the 1st paragraph, with minor differences. A bit redundant I would say. Anyone? Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 18:43, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting note

Sorry for this unwikipedian item. Feel free to delete. I sat next to him at a wedding reception. Knowing zero about sports, and seeing people come for autographs, I asked him what he did. Said he played football. I asked what team, he said the Bears. I eventually commented that he must have been awfully good to have all of these people wanting his autograph. He was very gracious regarding my dumbness. North8000 (talk) 04:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, your note is completely inappropriate for this page. Second of all, I enjoyed it, and am quite glad you posted it.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:00, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Sid Luckman. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080609021344/http://waltercamp.org/index.php/teams_and_awards/awards/P100/ to http://waltercamp.org/index.php/teams_and_awards/awards/P100/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:39, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

'Tough Luck: Sid Luckman, Murder Inc...'

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tough-luck-review-keeping-mum-about-dad-11567636677?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/274401/meyer-and-sid

The subject of this book (published in September 2019) does seem newsworthy as it relates to Sid and his father Meyer Luckman, who died in Sing-Sing in 1944 while serving a 20-year sentence for the 1935 murder of his brother-in-law and Sid's friend Samuel Drukman. 24.1.67.182 (talk) 20:19, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]